Atheist Debates - Dealing with unchangeable minds

[@RB-zh1eq]

I really didn't want to like Matt Dillahunty. When I first saw him on youtube, I was prepared to disagree, dislike, and be irritated by him. I was wrong, wrong about many things. My world has been changed because I dared to question my beliefs. It's been changed, mostly, for the better. Relationships have become strained, my marriage has been altered, but I am ashamed of the way I thought, the things I said, and the way I behaved. Thank you Matt, and the atheist community on this site. Life is so much better without superstitious beliefs. I was a Mormon, and now I'm not.

[@ravager240]

@Markus Delop There are many close-knit communities I would trade a fedora for. I don't wear fedoras but I'd rather have one than say the Jonestown community, the KKK, or Westboro Baptist Church.

[@apersonontheinternet8354]

props mate. I'm proud of you

[@kenshiloh]

Hi. I am wondering, you were wrong about Mormonism; what guarantee do you have that you are right about atheism? I hope you will remember that the Christian faith is all about a friendship with God. He created you and would love to be a part of your life. You were in a false religion of Mormonism. You are in a passage from falsehood into the truth. Don't get stuck in the passage! If you do not invite Christ, He won't kick the door down. You have gone from one error into another one. Yet, Jesus Christ is the light of the world.

[@niceshotmano]

@@kenshiloh Amigo, the Christian faith purports to be a lot of different things, depending on who they're trying to convince. Let's be honest, there is a justification for near everything in the Bible. Snake oil if you ask me. This is not dissimilar from other faiths.

[@kenshiloh]

@@niceshotmano Hi Paul. Thanks for writing. You say that the Bible is similar to other religions? In the same way, would you agree that a counterfeit bill is similar to the real thing? Concerning 'snake oil' and wanting to sell you something, why do you think the gospels were written? For example, the gospel of Matthew was written with all kinds of allusions to the Jewish religion: prayer shawls, the sabbath day, purification, etc. Hence, it would not make sense that it was written for the Greeks. Yet, for the Jews, calling Jesus 'God' was a capital offense. The only motive in writing that gospel, other than having a serious persecution wish, was that it is true. I hope you will have a personal encounter with Jesus Christ. He is the light of the world.

[@UltimateBargains]

If nothing in reality can change your belief, then your belief is based on nothing in reality.

[@kimsland999]

Unless what you believe in is true and everything in reality continues to confirm its a fact of course! What you meant (I think?) was that we all should be prepared to change our beliefs when provided good reason or evidence to do this.

[@UltimateBargains]

Kim Land We can never know absolute truth. We can move closer to knowing truth by refuting false claims with sound reason and independently verifiable evidence. A refuted claim needs no more consideration. A claim that survives all rational attempts at refutation is held as tentatively true until new evidence is discovered to refute the claim. That is the essence of the Scientific Method, which is the best way that humans have yet found for learning how reality operates (truth). Newton's explanation of gravity survived most attempts at refutation, yet could not describe the orbit of the planet Mercury. Einstein's general theory of relativity provided a better model that perfectly described Mercury's orbit. Thus, Newton's claim was refuted by new reason and independently verifiable evidence. Our knowledge about gravity has moved closer to the truth.

[@kimsland999]

Facts don't exist? ;)

[@UltimateBargains]

Kim Land Facts are necessary along with sound reason, and a willingness to modify your worldview when new evidence is discovered. In the long debate video between Ken Ham and Bill Nye, there was one question that summed up each side's entire worldview. Q: "What would change your mind?" Ham: "Nothing." Nye: "Evidence."

[@GenerationX1984]

At the beginning of the video he says that some people have told him they would rather believe in something comforting than find out it wasn't true. My religious mother basically told me much of the same about her beliefs.

[@yoda112358]

The problem lies whenever people identify so strongly with an idea that a critique of an idea is treated as critique of the person.

[@sirmeowthelibrarycat]

Helicase21 😸 Yes, that is falling back on using an ad hominem fallacy. What we non religious people ask is for verifiable evidence for the claims being made by believers. My position as an atheist is, thus, a neutral one. Where I will criticise a person is for the behaviour he exhibits based upon his religious views. Demanding others submit to the same sect as he does on penalty of immense suffering is indefensible and must be challenged. Almost the worst such behaviour is to subject new born children to the influence of religious idealogues in terms of baptism, christening and male genital mutilation by those who should protect children from abuse. Why are we afraid to speak out on these issues? Perhaps such hesitancy demonstrates the extent of pernicious influence the religious have over much of humanity . . .

[@Ortorin]

We need a large enough base of athiests to be able to challenge the worst of deeply rooted religious beliefs in our society. With 1/4 of the U.S. population now identifying as non-religious, we will be pushing back with greater force and frequency.

[@yoda112358]

Sir Meow, you can exhibit whatever position you like. But if you want to change people's minds, rather than simply be smug in your correctness, then you need to start by putting yourself in their shoes to determine what will actually convince them, rather than simply what you think should convince them.

[@MegaChickenfish]

Which is _definitely_ why this is hardest when dealing with religion and politics. Both things that people inextricably tie to their identity. The only way to counter it is to have part of that "who you are" structure include caring about the pursuit of truth.

[@Scyllax]

Helicase21 And the person places a survival value on the belief and will defend it to the death.

[@oomphlau]

Matt, the world is lucky that you didn't go into the ministry and instead are giving your communicating talent to a much more noble cause.

[@telkicelstascal8875]

he could have done alot more if he actually went into ministry, think about all the theists that would come in and walk out with more truth than they usually get

[@wilsontexas]

Atheism has caused millions od deaths.

[@jared1964]

@@wilsontexas Evidence? Sources?

[@wilsontexas]

@@jared1964 im a democrat, i dont need evidence.

[@nameforcomments4092]

@@wilsontexas Friendly reminder that the crusades were a thing, and jihad is a thing, and ritual sacrifice is a thing, etc., etc. Saying atheism causes deaths is saying that people died from lack of belief. That's all atheism is. So if people died due to lack of faith, either God killed them directly or theists did, making your little score even worse.

[@grandmamosays3310]

Wow, this hits home. I am still really embarrassed to admit that I was wrong for 46 years about Christianity. I admit I was wrong, because my story might help others, but I still feel ashamed of my ignorance.

[@CampingforCool41]

Grandma Mo Says Instead of feeling ashamed of your past beliefs, be proud that you actually broke out of it. Many people live and die with their ignorance.

[@tkenglander6226]

No need to feel embarrassed at all. You can now just enjoy real reality. You deserve to be happy and healthy, and you don't have to wait for any god to give you permission to enjoy your life or to forgive you for being sinful (because you never were sinful). Yay, you!!! :-)

[@westingtyler1]

ANYONE is susceptible to some of those bad ideas. our brains are wired to make some basic mistakes, and it takes training to know how to spot and avoid them. the great thing about learning you were wrong is that you don't have to KEEP being wrong. don't replace feeling ashamed for being a human (as in christianity) with feeling ashamed for being fallible. fallibility is totally normal.

[@EmperorsNewWardrobe]

Grandma Mo Says, you were simply reacting to being in a whirlpool of religious conditioning, from which you've now managed to swim out. Whether this happened in childhood or later, you lacked good swimming teachers or good role models, but why would you have looked for these if you didn't realise you were stuck?

[@stylis666]

Excuses excuses. I agree with the excuses, but I also understand the feeling of shame and there is nothing wrong with feeling it, but try not to forget that you aren't the only one feeling that. I wasn't ever religious, but I have lied a lot and was wrong about the reasons for doing it. I didn't know any better at the time, but excuses don't make it right. I was wrong and I am ashamed to a level where it breaks me in tears and I want to cry out how sorry I am, but no amount of cries will ever make anything right, so I cry silently when I try and explain it to someone. I also feel pride during those cries. That pride does not take away the shame and I wouldn't want it to. When I found out how wrong I was and how much easier and beautiful life is without lying, I made a choice to be sincere forever. I won't apologise before I have something to show. I refuse to apologise with a promise. I made a choice to be the best I can be and only when those I hurt by lying to them tell me on their own that they see how much better I am now and that they are proud of me for what I have accomplished, then I will apologise and cry to them how sorry I am. It won't fix nor erase my past, but if I can live the rest of my life knowing that I gave something beautiful that makes people dear to me feel proud to have me in their lives and feel comfortable when they see me, then I have fulfilled my goal. That something beautiful is my personality. Sure it has its ugly sides, but its pure and sincere, regardless of my past. It will take time for people to trust me again. Ironically, people who have known me shorter also know my personality better and hold me in higher regard and have no doubt about my sincerity. Those who know my past have a much harder time looking past it. I have forgiven myself a long time ago because I had to in order to become better and stronger. My brother forgave me as well but also has doubts. I never thanked for his forgiveness. Instead I felt happy for him for the liberation of his mind and that he had one less barrier in dealing with me. That barrier had hurt me for a long time and I deserved it, but he had the same barrier, but he didn't deserve it at all. This made me realise that making the right choice didn't make my emotional life any easier. I am constantly confronted with the pain I caused in others that many others still feel every time they see me. I feel sad and ashamed of that and I wish I could fix it for them; make them see that I learned and that it is okay for them to put their grudge away and make room for pride and happiness, but I can't make them see inside my mind. I can show the good I do. I can show them I grew in my music and show them the lyrics I write and I can show them the work I do and how much it helps others. They might still worry that it's all for show and I don't mind. I know that it isn't and that's good enough for me. I know that they _can_ see I am sincere. I share my 'new' life mostly with friends, only some of whom know that I once was a liar(and have lived with it for a few years). I take great comfort in knowing that they saw me change completely and they know that I will always feel ashamed of what I did and I will always feel sad for those I hurt and lost because of it and my friends comfort me by telling me that making mistakes is how we learn and that it is okay to make mistakes and it is okay to feel bad about them and about the undeserved negative consequences other people went through because of those mistakes. Everybody makes mistakes in one way or another and for some the past doesn't weigh as much as for others, but feeling bad about mistakes every once in while proves your will to be a good person and its evidence that you are. Don't ever forget that. You will tell it to some else some day. Maybe you already did and you just didn't realise that simple truths like that also apply to you, so I remind you of it ;) Enjoy :)

[@travim4314]

Don't stop the discussion. I had an unchangeable mind for many years. Then reason finally hit and I'm now a proud atheist.

[@FatRakoon]

I realized the bible was problematic when I was only about 8, probably 9 years old, when I started to read it for myself. I decided to compare the bible with what I was finding out about the world, when I could not hack Cavemen showing that Adam and Eve were not cavemen. I was very confused. I was about 14 when I had entirely removed all traces of beleif in the bible, and my mother took it very very badly. Thankfully, she is very honest and was fully open to listen to my reasons. After 4 days of her asking many many questions about what I have learned, she too realised that the bible cannot possibly be true when science has shown it to contain as much errors as I was showing her. Both my mother and I have been Atheist ever since.

[@MegaChickenfish]

Props for managing to read it at 8 or 9. I read above my reading level by a fair few years and still couldn't really digest the bible until I was around 18. Once I could, I started to notice they left out _enormous_ amounts of the bible they didn't want me to see, _which only encouraged me to keep reading it even more diligently, to find what they had kept from me and what it really said,_ and it all went downhill from there.

[@FatRakoon]

I was very much ahead of the curve at school. When I was 7, I had the reading and writing ability of a 14 year old. It didnt stick. I got cocky and when I was about 14, I had teh attitude of a 7 year old LOL. But thanks. Yes, it is a sad fact, but if you actually had an honest view, then reading the bible, shows you quite shockingly how vile the bible can be. I also freely admit, that there is so many good thigns in it, there are a multitude of great lovely things that are a good thing to go by, but there are also so many sick vile and disgusting thigns too, and the fact that so many people will nto accept these horrible parts, or make up some excuse abotu god being perfect, is just more proof that shows us that these people are delusional and dont actually care for the facts, because they are so dammaged and so stuck in theif beleifs that this god is something special, that they dont care for the facts... They think they already have them. Its shallow and sad, and above all dishonest. I honestly believe, that if there is a god, and he judges us on our ability to look at the evidence and take a rational view of the world, then I honestly think that 99% of christians, Muslims, Jews, would simply not get in. They believe purely because they are told to and they know nothing else. While a person like me, who ONLY goes by the facts, and by what science has proven that is the absolute truth, then someone like me would get in without a single bad mark, because I am absolutely 100% honest about all of this.

[@teardrop-in-a-fishbowl]

Bravo, you have the right mindset! It always starts with doubts, even about oneself, in order to get as close as possible to the truth. Being a skeptic and not because of skepticism is the best thing you can do. Not only do you stay up to date with the latest knowledge if you have broad interests, you also very rarely get into the embarrassment of not knowing anything about the pressing issues that matter to us.

[@richardlawson6787]

I feel you...I was hauled to church every Sunday then one day at the age of sixteen on our way home from church at age 16 I told mother I wasn't going back..I spared her feelings because I wanted to tell her I'm just to smart to believe childish ancient stories...how any one can put aside common sense and believe anything is beyond me...and erroneous beliefs are damgerous

[@janicebeams2389]

Both you and your mother didn't know the Bible or science. You have never proven the Bible false.

[@kaixakusaka658]

Y'know, in becoming an Atheist this year am I actually seeing how serious Christianity is. The further I go down that path the more it's insane how many have literally given up _years_ of their lives. .to absolutely nothing. To have escaped at 27 and now 28. .was it very, very relieving.

[@AsFewFalseThingsAsPossible]

I think this is one of the reasons that people confronted by facts reject them. The true horror of having believed false claims for 60 years can be overwhelming and the brain protects itself.

[@ChrisFineganTunes]

AsFewFalseThingsAsPossible Yeah. Actually engaging with that realisation can be genuinely devastating for a person.

[@kenshiloh]

Hi. I was raised by an atheist. I met Christ when I was 17 and we have been best friends ever since. The definition of a Christian is someone who knows the Lord. Were you a pretend Christian, telling people that you knew God, when you did not? Did you feel guilty for lying to them or were you self-deceived? Nonetheless, I can see how you would see that time as a total waste. 'Christianity' without God - how dead is that! Yet, if you were self-deceived, how do you know that you are not fooling yourself again? Ever hear the saying, "Once bitten, twice shy"? How can you trust your own opinion to guide you? I hope you will get to know Christ! He is the light of the world.

[@MiniEquine]

@@kenshiloh Ken, I really feel sorry for you but there is yet hope. The fact that you instantly jumped at OP with the “not a *true* Christian” argument really shows your colors. Please reflect on your experiences and ask how you can show to yourself and others that your “friend” actually exists and can be there for you. Please don’t stay in too long.

[@kenshiloh]

@@MiniEquine Hi Joshua. The 'No True Scotsman' fallacy does not apply to what I wrote. For example, if you thought a bit more on it, you would have realized that there are never any 'former' Christians. That is because the very definition of a Christian is someone who knows and loves God. Jesus said, "This is eternal life, that you know God and Jesus Christ Whom He has sent." Hence, if a person says, "I used to be a Christian," that is synonymous with, "I used to know and love Jesus Christ with an eternal, unshakeable love." What an obvious contradiction! In fact, the best you could say is that there are no Christians, denying the reality of Christ. However, you would then have to prove that God does not exist - and that is impossible. However, if there is no God, then there is no moral law. Atheists, for example Sam Harris, counter with a morality based on the betterment of the human race. Yet, do I have to agree with Sam Harris? Is he an authority over all people? Yet, if everyone 'creates' their own moral law, then anything a person does is 'moral'! Yet, God gave you a conscience. You know that, beyond what people think, there is a 'right and wrong.' In fact, God will judge the world in righteousness. How do you think you will do? For example, have you ever lied? Stolen? Used God's Name in disrespect? If so, you will be judged as a lying thief and a blaspemer. Unfit for Heaven, you would be cast out with other liars and thieves. Jesus said that hell is eternal torment. I hope that you will make things right with God! Jesus Christ is the light of the world.

[@azmaelurbankiz2576]

apart from the expressed wisdom, I am amazed with Matts rethorical talent. No "uhm"s, no hesitation. he nails every sentence, a pleasure to listen to!

[@RealityMinecraft]

Thank you Matt, your work is absolutely essential for the future of our society.

[@ryleexiii1252]

William Mills Indeed, the future is an illusion and no matter how significant this be, it is implausible to assume that's even a possibility. (I'm pulling this out of my ass)

[@fraterdeusestveritas2022]

@Matthew Petto Absolutely, absolute truth.

[@Her_Viscera]

@Matthew Petto go back to the middle ages, we don't need you pal

[@Bill_Garthright]

I've had Christians tell me, "I don't care if it's true or not [meaning, their religious beliefs], because I don't want to live in your world." That's a verbatim quote from the first Christian who expressed that sentiment to me. I was so shocked by it that it has stayed in my mind ever since, word for word. (OK, memory is not reliable. I know that. So let's just say that it's close enough.) That was years ago. I've had other Christians express the same sentiment to me since then. It no longer shocks me. It saddens me. It disgusts me. But I'm not sure I'm even surprised by it anymore.

[@MegaChickenfish]

It is pretty scary. It took years of drilling but even my own mother admitted that to be their grounding. Nothing real, *pure* wishful thinking of "I don't want to live in reality." I mean _I don't either_ , reality sucks, it's why I drown out my free time in video games, but I consider that healthier because at least I don't delude myself into thinking the video games are reality. It's like that quote from the Matrix "the dream has become their reality." Who are you to tell them otherwise?"

[@Bill_Garthright]

+MegaChickenfish _Does_ reality suck? Sure, I've been a walking bundle of rage ever since November, but my personal life is pretty good - certainly better than the overwhelming majority of human beings have ever had it throughout the entire history of our species. Even if my life was lots worse, I'd feel embarrassed to complain given how bad other people have had it for thousands and thousands of years. But really, I'm pretty happy. I, too, spend all day playing computer games, but not to avoid reality - well, no more than why I spend so much time reading, at least. I just enjoy them. And I've been retired for 11 years now, so I've got the time (though it never _seems_ that way). I grew up in the 1950s, and I know that it wasn't the paradise that right-wingers claim, not even for Americans (and certainly not if you were black, gay, or female). And though I'm disgusted about the political situation - and that we're _still_ fighting racism - I'd never even _heard_ of another atheist when I was a kid, let alone known one. That's encouraging, too. (Admittedly, we've got our share of assholes in the atheist community.) I don't think that reality sucks, not at all. The wonders of science are better than the fairy tales of religion - plus, they're actually _real._ Sure, things aren't perfect, and they never will be, but that gives us something to work towards when we get bored playing games. :) Of course, I spend far too much time on KZbin, too - something else that didn't exist when I was a kid.

[@ecocentrichomestead6783]

That's a statement I can sympathize with. As I was going down the road to leaving religion, I didn't want to let go because I was taught that non believers were dreadful, selfish, thieving, murderous monsters. But I met a wonderful person one year. She was an atheist. I paid close attention to her actions when sober and when drunk. I realized then that every person I ever thought was good, never stepped a foot inside a church. I went then full atheist. When someone tells you "because I don't want to live in your world." S/he doesn't know what your world is.

[@ecocentrichomestead6783]

@Jim Thinnsen you bring up a point there that adds to mine. There are terrible atheists and there are good atheists. But then there are terrible theists and there are good theists. So the question here is not does God exist. But, do humans need to believe in God in order to be good? I have thought about it many times. My conclusion is that morals is a concept humans came up with and then blamed it on God. "Man created God in his own image"

[@steveswangler6373]

Bill Garthright I remember the first time I saw the bumper sticker, "god said it, I believe it, and that's it". I hadn't even come to be an atheist yet at the time, but my very first thougth was, "what a small dark world this person lives in"

[@MegaChickenfish]

I brought this up to my mom at one point. I basically told her that she was _claiming to be God_ when she said nothing could ever change her mind, since she was claiming she _could not have possibly made any mistake_ in her human reasoning. She was dumbfounded but didn't really have any rebuttal. I mostly pity her; it never feels like we can have a "fair" discussion of these things because I've spent around the last 6 years honing my understanding of arguments and she's spent almost 50 doing nothing of the sort. It's like boxing with a toddler. You mostly just wind up looking like the bad guy.

[@timothymorrisii7165]

When I was really young, ages like 7-11, I felt like I was a horrible person and was afraid that I was, because I couldn't find that faith or belief in a deity. I tried to believe, I even got baptized southern Baptist after getting burned and nearly dying. But instead of bringing me closer to faith, it drove me further from it. As a teenager I went off the rails, ideologically speaking, claiming nihilism, satanism and other such absurdities. But when I searched inside and learned philosophy I found myself becoming comfortable and happy in an atheistic naturalist mindset. So for me, seeing you, seeing the Atheist experience, the boys from talk heathen, and the various scientists and comedians, etc, that I respect and admire talking about this stuff, it only adds to that comfort, solace and solidarity that comes with the community you all create. If you, Matt, ever read these comments, I want to thank you for helping with that.

[@TheCheapPhilosophy]

I like to quote Harry Potter's wisdom from a random passage of those books, and interpret them as metaphors to draw the conclusion I need. Exactly like every religious person ever did with their holy books. They are just demonstrating how smart the apologist was, nothing else.

[@MegaChickenfish]

I still remember that one public speech someone made quoting Harry Potter. It was remarkably inspiring. I've certainly gotten more wisdom out of those books than most religions. (Buddhism might have some good points if A:TLA is anything to go by, philosophy-wise)

[@herbertgreen2824]

I was speaking to some young fellows in front of Wal-Mart that had a "Teen Challenge" booth set up and were hawking their christian trinkets for "Donations". I asked one of the 2 if he could answer some big questions I had regarding the bible. He said yes, so I asked him if the Noah story is true. Of course he said yes, so I asked him, "if that accounting of history is true, then all the humans that populate the earth now are direct descendants from the Noah family" and are products of incest, which is not allowed in his bible. He said yes we all are related top Noah. I then asked him if that is true, why are there different "Races of humans". There are Caucasian, Asian, Negro, Asian Indians, American Indians, Hispanics, Etc. Where did the diversity of human physical characteristics derive from that 1 family. Which race of humans were Noah and his family? He said "I don't know". I pointed out that in a family, there are physical resemblances to other members of the same family. In my family we have the same physical resemblance of the chin. My brother and sister have it, my grandfather and father had it, my cousins on my fathers side have it. We can see it in all our photos. I asked him if Noah and his family had the same "Chin" that we have, another "I don't know". I continued to ask additional questions that don't make sense to me in the bible, all he ever said was "I don't know the answer". I then said the time to believe is when there is demonstrable evidence and not musings or claims in a book. The other young man told me one of his "Personal testimonies" that he has to prove god is real and works in this reality. He told his "Story" that a friend of his was going to commit suicide with a handgun and that god told the man's brother to call the suicidal brother just in time to stop him from killing himself. I asked him why did your god have to work circuitously through another human and not just remove the gun from the man's hand. Is your god so weak that he has to have a human do his work? He said he didn't know but he still believes that his god "worked in mysterious ways". All I ever got was "I don't know". I asked them if they have so many I don't knows that the time to have confidence in information is when you can test and verify the information to know. They both said that they will believe in the bible until they die and have faith and hope that it is true. I then told them that they can believe in your bible but just keep it out of my civil rights and in their homes and churches. One of them said "Our goal to put our god and bible in every school and government in this country and make this a christian nation". He then said, "This country was founded on biblical principles". I then told him to read the treaty of Tripoli and the constitution that there shall be no national religion. They both didn't care about what the constitution says and will turn this nation back to god. I told them they can try and I am going to do all I can to prevent it. I then said, "from my cold dead hand you will" and then walked away.

[@sivonparansun]

The world is a better place because of what Matt Dillahunty does.

[@p.bamygdala2139]

Wow! I like the new Matt! He was fantastic before, but now he's evolved to a whole new level of wisdom and insight! Keep up the good work! Thank you for your passion and dedication.

[@sso9442]

Thank you Matt for so much wisdom regarding the fruitless search to "change" minds. As you say, you can only help them change on their own.

[@lucitti8065]

Both of the videos I've watched that you posted today were so relevant to me right now. Thank you for being so awesome, Matt!

[@tomb504dog]

I live in the south and the thing that I have seen most often that starts to break down the walls is when someone finds out that their child or someone in their close family is gay. For most people this starts to present problems with their religion and makes them begin to question things.

[@Rico-Suave_]

I started questioning my religious beliefs in Islam when I started college, I learned a lot which contradicted with religious beliefs, after a few years I concluded religion was made up to help people cope back in early human history, I proclaimed to a few family members and friends that I was an atheist this upset my parents a lot so I kept quite about it for next 25 years, I also did prayers when asked to not upset parents. now I'm an ex-muslim closet atheist . rarely I proclaim I don't like religion, but I often push my support for evolution and big bang to hint at what I truly believe

[@Senjuina77]

Thank you Matt Dillahunty, this is exactly the video I needed! My brother has gone the road of believing in a lot seemingly interlocking conspiracies and half-thruths that actually make reality scary to him, and we've had some intense arguments over the last couple days. And it breaks my heart. No matter how much I explain to him how the people he listens to actually contradict themselves, or how they don't actually have or show any proof that their position is true, or how their way of arguing their case is misleading and dishonest, he wouldn't listen all that much. I've also asked him to define his position, to give me his standpoint of what he believes, and except for one topic where I unknowingly used your mirroring-technique, I haven't gotten a clear answer out of him yet. My hope is to try to study what he believes so that we can get on some kind of equal ground in terms of knowledge of topic. Hopefully, your tips can help me save him from driving himself nuts...

[@skulduggeryvile7887]

I have the same problems witn soemone i know who is into ancient alien theories and modern aliens, alomg with unlimited free energy and similar nonsense. The most frustrating part is we'll agree we share reality for best we know amd that we don't have to know everything to know things but when he's backed into a corner he'll start saying things like well how do we know anything. It's a defense mechanism to get him out and he's even openly and proudly admitted his alien visiting earth ideas are based on faith

[@daveyjones9930]

The question on "truth" I ask is: "If your religion was absolutely NOT TRUE, would you want to know?" Followed up by: "How would you go about finding out?"

[@Sammie551]

They will still say it's true because they are dodging the question

[@nicolab2075]

Excellent, may I borrow this?

[@daveyjones9930]

@@nicolab2075 Of course. I got it from someone else. ;)

[@nicolab2075]

@@daveyjones9930 😊

[@robharwood3538]

Matt, this is by far the best speech of yours I've ever witnessed, and that's not to say your other speeches weren't great. Archive this one, it will be remembered for a long long time. Great job!

[@nameforcomments4092]

It popped up in my recommendations again after many months, so here I am watching it again, something I don't usually do, and it's very much worth it.

[@pininsho]

A nice summing up of how your approach has evolved and matured over the years through the experiences you've had.

[@thefit-family]

Wow such an amazing speech ☺️ Matt you are such a inspiration, glad to have you doing what you do

[@gigisdad]

I've learned so much from Matt about how to use reason in an argument and how to point out poor reasoning and logical fallacies in other's arguments. There are times when I'm stumped and think "how would Matt respond?"

[@exmormonroverpaula2319]

Matt, you say you don't know how to change people's minds. Since I became an atheist, I have been very puzzled by why so little seems to be known about what interventions are most effective in changing minds. When I was a Mormon missionary, we used certain approaches because the Church had done research which showed these were the most effective in producing converts. (By the way, if any of the people Hermana Young converted to the Mormon Church in Spain in 1984-1985 are still out there, I'm sorry I was so stupid back then.) As missionaries, we were not shy about using what worked. Is any science being done in this area by atheist organizations? If not, why not?

[@154Slappy]

Astounding and very thoughtful-minded advice, Matt. Beautifully put. Keep up the good work :)

[@geshtu1760]

I know someone who surprised me when he told me he had deconverted. I was surprised because in many of our discussions in the months prior to that I was unaware that he was simply playing devils advocate and/or trying out opposing arguments. The point I am making is that sometimes when people are going through the process of deconversion, they may not be fully convinced of the arguments they put forward. It's a strong vote towards addressing the argument while offering respect to the person (if possible). I loved the point Matt made about trying to imagine a way that someone could reasonably arrive at the conclusion you're arguing against. If you don't understand how anyone could possibly believe something, chances are that you don't yet understand their point of view. I don't mean that it is reasonable to hold their position, but rather that a reasonable person could end up believing some things under certain circumstances that may not be entirely their fault. If we're talking about childhood indoctrination, that's almost always the case.

[@MegaChickenfish]

26:00 Can confirm that was how I found your show. I started actually digging into the bible, book by book, and asking *every* question that came to mind, eventually coming to questions _our pastor couldn't answer, because he never asked them to himself._ But I wasn't content with that, so I kept looking and found you.

[@scottplumer3668]

Matt, this is one of your best talks ever.

[@Otherwise88]

This is like a sermon except reasonable and I actually want to watch it.

[@danielr9853]

One of the most brilliant minds of our generation

[@dougvanderhoop8012]

This guy is on the same level as Einstein, only with truth not physics. Every word is pure gold! Now the challenge. We should assure that he rises above the level of crooks like Joel Osteen. Athiests need to find a comfy blanket to offer such a how relegion offers "Jesus loves you". In the past that promise did give me help and hope even if it was a lie.

[@sdozer1990]

Contentment is trying to be happy, not right. Person A: "How is that belief justified?" Person B: "I don't know." Person A: "Hmm..." Person B: *Thoughtfulness* Discontentment is trying to be right, not happy. Person A: "How is that true?" Person B: "You tell me." Person A: "It isn't true at all." Person B: *Smiling*

[@bglrbigguyslittlerides6490]

Matt you need to go on the Joe Rogan Experience podcast!

[@CaptainOnePocket]

Joe Rogan is too weak to have Matt on his show. Joe only likes bad reasoning and arguments like the faux intellectual Jordan Petterson.

[@Whaylie]

@@CaptainOnePocket He had Richard Dawkins on the podcast

[@SpaceOrbisGaming]

When I hear you talk I have hope we may one day grow out of this idea that we hold a view based on how it feels and began to hold views based on evidence and facts. Keep fighting the good fight man.

[@DeconvertedMan]

Thank for this! I was thinking about how to deal with people that dont want to change there mind or seem to. I'm fine with being wrong - I get to learn stuff :)

[@Brissles]

Their* :)

[@DeconvertedMan]

@@Brissles omg.

[@SteveFrenchWoodNStuff]

I see 15 theists have already been here. Another fantastic presentation! Thank you for all that you do, Matt. You are a tremendous force for reason in this world.

[@anthonyward6898]

Looking back on it, its so scary and really awful how as children many of us were taught to believe such nonsense... Sadly, I was 47 years old before I even CONSIDERED questioning the things I was taught in Sunday school. I am so grateful that I stumbled across Matt Dilahunty, Christopher Hitchens and other videos on KZbin. Otherwise I would most likely still be under the delusion that God and the bible were the answer to all of my problems. Today I understand and believe that instead, the exact opposite is true.

[@doctorheadblog]

Wow, Matt. What an amazing video. I am so thankful (to the flying spaghetti monster) that I found you. You have helped me sooo much in my personal growth. This video is excellent. Although I don't always agree with you on every stance, your advice here is superb, and has given me a solid reason to reevaluate the way I address religious fanatics who aren't willing to change their minds. My personal reminder is that I don't do what I do to change minds. I do what I do to plant seeds that may grow later. Much love and respect to you for who you are and all that you do.

[@imacds]

It was lovely seeing this in person. Keep up the good work!

[@bradbenjamin8551]

Hey fellow person that got to see this live! I agree with you, all four of them were great I thought

[@--Maximillian--]

One of the best speakers out threre

[@nookymonster1]

I find it interesting that when people have a near death experiance, they always have an experiance with the God of "their particular belief". You never hear about a Muslim that saw Jesus, or a Christian that saw Allah.

[@proditoresmoriendum86]

If only I could actually get those around me to even hear what you say

[@SteveFrenchWoodNStuff]

Matt, PLEASE BE MORE CLEAR when defining "unfalsifiable"!!! As excellent as your presentations (always) are, I do wish you'd be more clear on the definition of "unfalsifiable". Personally, I understand it. But so many people don't quite get the nuance. It's not just a position/claim that cannot be shown to be false; it's a position/claim that IF FALSE cannot be shown to be false. It's the "IF false" part that keeps being left out. And that's the most critical part, because theists can rightly come back with "well of course it can't be shown to be false; because it's true!". Sorry if I sound like I'm telling you - a far more articulate and knowledgeable man than I - how to do his job. But I really think this is a very important distinction that is insufficiently conveyed by MOST atheist presenters in almost every presentation, show and podcast. It's not the "cannot be shown to be false" part that make the critical distinction. It's the "if it were, in fact, NOT true" part that needs to be stressed. Since everything that happens to be true, by definition, "cannot be shown to be false", it gives theists an undeserved sense of being right when they are told their position is "unfalsifiable" without their understanding what the word ACTUALLY means. What we skeptics are saying is "Your claims are insufficiently supported by evidence". However, what they hear is "Your claims can't be refuted".

[@kimsland999]

I agree, but the unfalsifiable claim by theists may be more directed at atheists understanding the dilemma, it is usually followed by an example to help clear up its meaning. We do not need to write in baby-talk to communicate to theists!

[@MegaChickenfish]

Even true things could be shown to be false. I don't see the need for the distinction. If I threw a ball from earth's surface and it fell up, gravity as we know it would be falsified.

[@ThePharphis]

This is one of your best talks so far. Top 3 for sure ;)

[@carlmalone4011]

I was irresponsibly sent to Lutheran grammer school by my mom. At age 11 I asked the pastor 1 question about morality. His answer convinced me that I was morally superior to him , his god and my mom.

[@niceshotmano]

Do share!

[@briand.reynolds474]

Yeah, share, what was the question?

[@Brissles]

Is grammer school an American thing?

[@AsFewFalseThingsAsPossible]

The technical quality of this was excellent. Camera and sound and backdrop, studio quality.

[@Artman1]

I have an emotional relationship with music. 🙂

[@applicableapple3991]

I have an abusive relationship with music.😐

[@gabeidrissi5286]

Such a great speaker and conveyer of ideas. Thank you Matt!

[@johnemerick5860]

Trust in Godzilla with all your heart♥ , and lean not on your own understanding!

[@carlhansen6802]

Loved the speech, especially the end! This really is an opportunity for a paradigm shift in the US. And worldwide. Western Europe did away with religion already, even though Christianity used to be so deeply entrenched here. Nowadays, even the traditionally Roman Catholic Ireland, is one of the most open, tolerant, rational and secular societies I've ever come in contact with. It obviously can be done. The incredibly fast paced technological and scientific progress, with all the demands and challenges that come with it, in addition to its positive impact, will require rational minds, operating on reason and evidence. Superstitious nonsense and religiosity is bound to get driven away from serious public discourse over the course of this century. The religious folks see that as well and while some are hoping for that to mean the end of the world, others are taking their last stand. At any rate, they will lose their cultural relevance. They've already lost the argument.

[@johncundiss9098]

Every family has a weird one. go to a reunion and check for yourself, the weird one that stands out. If you go to a big family reunion and there are no weirdos there,,,,, guess what YOUR IT.

[@Diviance]

It is better to be the weirdo of the family and own it. You can have so much fun that way.

[@johncundiss9098]

Oh yea I know, I am the weird one. I make shit up just to tell people at parties and such, see how far it goes.

[@Brissles]

My it?

[@MegaChickenfish]

"Changing the world around the minds that won't be changed" reminds me, of all things, of Dr. Seuss where the north-mover and the south-mover just sit there bickering as the world moves on without them.

[@SpaceCaseZ06]

would've liked to be in attendance

[@ozoneswiftak]

Matt, these old videos are still new. Just getting released. Thier great. Must be my algorithm

[@terrenceweiss6233]

Speaking in tongues is one of the most ridiculous claims. Unless you can prove that speaking gibberish is the language of God. If speaking in tongues was legitimate I would logically expect everyone's gibberish to sound exactly the same. Now that would be evidence.

[@fundorgon]

Teh Lard Wurkz en meesteerias ways...

[@Sammie551]

Well they do it because they want to say their personal things out loud

[@applicableapple3991]

I've recently converted (covid was kind to my mind)and most of the people in my church believe that they can speak in tongues. I feel like it's a psychological horror that one could have such a delusion. I remember one person praying for the holy spirit to give me the ability to speak in tongues. So I just made random sounds like shabadoobidabahalahoo etc. They were all so happy that I could speak in tongues

[@urielc.castillo5569]

Thanks for waking me up matt.....keep doing what you are doing

[@cloudoftime]

Sorry Matt, but I disagree with your wife. It doesn't take long to say the label of the fallacy before you explain it. What this does is provide an opportunity to educate. Now you have explained THAT it is a fallacy AND what that means. Helping people to understand the logic underlying the issue is the point; we're trying to get them to understand.

[@KrikitKaos]

Matt was using the label without defining it, and in this case in particular (argument from ignorance) the word ignorance is often incorrectly equated with stupid and the label is interpreted as a personal slur. Beth was right to draw his attention to it. The concept, well explained, is more important than the label.

[@Ioganstone]

Ignorance comes from the root "ignore" which is an active verb. As with any fallacy, the person using it is being stupid. So there's a big difference between calling someone ignorant, filled with ignorance and misguided. Also, saying they think you're "slurring" them is another strawman where you dont afford them to think you were misguided in using insulting language.

[@KrikitKaos]

I don't care about the grammar, I see no material difference between your three terms, and I have no idea what your last point is. Sorry.

[@MrOstefar]

As usual Matt delivers, but this lecture is VERY good - useful debating tips, not only regarding to religion. Should be "mandatory watch" for ateists who wants to debate the topic ;)

[@dannysnee4945]

I hope the theists haven't got it right because my KZbin feed gives me nothing on religion other then Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens and Dillahunty It's great at knowing what I like but it doesn't seem to want me hearing from the other side

[@luxmoto7344]

Yes Danny, that is a real problem. Google ( and most social media) are dividing us into groups who only get feeded information that is confirming our thought patterns. That is desastrous for sharpening your mind, and expanding your horizon.

[@keithkeithm1825]

love Matt ,fantastic . would really love to come to the indian restaurant u lot go to after the tv show in Austin . I live in England , have some very religious friends in Plano . must get over and come down , regards a long term Atheist . infact very few religious people in England these days , , churches being converted to houses and stuff. Anyway thanks Matt for ur shows , love listening to u .

[@michaelmadness7892]

How to deal with a mind that is not willing to change? Maybe deal with them as the professor on Robot Chicken when he strapped the reanimated chicken to the chair and put eye openers on him and forced him to watch many televisions. We can hook them up like this with nothing but Atheists on the tube.

[@lancethrustworthy]

Yeah, who cares about the cops and hostage taking? Lol.

[@atheistsfightclub6684]

You can't force someone to change their mind if they are not open to the possibility that they might be wrong, all you can do is show them why you think they are wrong as politely as possible and leave it at that, they might and probably will reject it out of hand, but it will sit in their head for as long as they remember what you said, even if they don't remember some other future conversation may bring it up again in a different way or from a source they don't automatically ignore and it make a different impact.

[@yosh3058]

Im not currently in a position to 'come out' as atheist, but when that day comes, it's people like Matt who have prepared me for the arguments I'll hear and how to deal with them. Unfortunately I know there are many in my family and close friend group who fall into the group of people who will not question their beliefs. Honestly, I don't even want to change their minds, I just want them to acknowledge the other side is legitimate.

[@notaurusexcretus4471]

Perhaps one of the great thinkers of the 21st century

[@ingoleeck3130]

Yeah I was having a conversation with o e of my friends about this and at the end he pretty much said that even if it wasn’t true he would still want to act as a Christian and so this helps since I wasn’t even sure what to say after that because how am I supposed to argue if he will not listen

[@DavoidJohnson]

The message is clear. It is delivered in the form of a sermon. A technique Matt is well versed in. The only danger is in this setting, that the message could be obscured for those allergic to preaching.

[@tedgrant2]

Until recently, nobody knew why we have brains. Some people thought that the brain was some kind of cooling device. The seat of the emotions was believed to be in the heart. The brain does a lot ! In particular, it creates the illusion that you are alive.

[@WyreForestBiker]

For many the reality of death is too much to process ..... a fantasy that takes it away too comforting too resist.

[@starlaminde8436]

Thank you Matt for coming into my life via KZbin I’m so much happier and free of the dogma and indoctrination and that’s a priceless gift you have given me

[@predragmilovanovic1082]

It is simple. Start with yourself and you see how the world changes it's tone and nuance, for what you previously thought is static and defined. Instead of asking others to do so.

[@beetoven8193]

This is one of m favorite videos, Matt. Rousing!

[@LucasMidkiff]

Nailed it again, Matt. Good work.

[@israelcastelan4012]

My parents are catholics and we always went to church when I was younger. They told me all the basics and I believed them. They never really pushed me to believe but they expected me to believe. And of course at the age of 6-7ish, I did without a doubt. When my brother returned from college to visit, I remember he asked my other brother if he believed in God. I forget the conversation and his reasons for disbelief, but it was a pivotol moment in my life. It sparked confusion and skepticism. I of course prayed for him that night but I also just began thinking of the many things I had no idea about, not even relating to God. We were lower a middle class family with a combined household income of 50K/ year (I have 5 other siblings btw) and that was the tipping point for me. I had wondered why God would give us such a shitty circumstance financially and struggle. My path to atheism admittingly started in not a good way, but as I matured and thought about what I believe, I began to realize what fortunate event that night with my brothers really was. It lead a life with reason and humanity. I of course have to thank Matt. He was a leading figure in shaping my path to my own truth.

[@rossf5945]

I recommend ''The Debunking Handbook'' by John Cook and Stephan Lewandowsky' It explains how , when you debunk a myth in someone`s mind you create ''a gap ''. To be effective that gap must be filled . Can be downloaded - 6 pages .

[@Diviance]

Another big problem with debunking or debating people is the Backfire Effect.

[@steveb0503]

I've sat there and one by one dissected the all the errors in reasoning that led to an unjustified position only to have my interlocutor become offended that I "thought that I knew better" than him. There is a deep-seated NEED for many "out there" to continue to believe whatever it is that they believe is reasonable and/or correct that simply CANNOT be unseated due to the fact that they are pathologically UNWILLING to have their beliefs revised - full stop. The only solution at that point (at least that I have found) is to simply excuse yourself and leave.

[@MegaChickenfish]

The way I heard it described was you have your Worldview like a house, and you defend your worldview from threats mentally using the same instinct that causes us to defend ourselves from _physical_ threats. We respond with that same irrational fight or flight reflex in both situations.

[@VadimMarushevskiy]

Most important talk! Thank you, Matt

[@themasculinismmovement]

And realize that they aren't going to change their mind then and there for you no matter how good your argument, the best you can do is plant seeds for them to think about which may change their mind sometime in the future, maybe even a year or more later.

[@reasonrally6658]

I am so happy that young men and women...boys and girls are taught "how to think" in school and not force fed "what to think in schools and colleges worldwide using logic and reason!

[@kyeraff]

I was told by someone I care for dearly that I was Hellbent on not seeing that God was real. As the tension of the conversation caused him great distress and he became very shouty and harsh......in his faith proclamation. I think I may have to give up on him.

[@briand.reynolds474]

This can be truly exhausting. I won't say I hope you didn't give up on them, only that I hope you didn't have to.

[@UltimateBargains]

An ignorant person is uneducated. A stupid person is ineducable.

[@kimsland999]

And a deluded person is a Christian.

[@ptanyuh]

Nice one, I enjoyed this. Thank you for the upload.

[@agnosticatheist7529]

The only thing I disagree with is, simply having rational arguments and facts on our side isn't going to cut it. If we are void of emotion, many people won't listen -- Climate Change scientists learnt this the hard way. It is why I think hyperbole can help, it actually provokes and keeps all parties more interested in a conversation. For example, Hitchens was a master of using hyperbole at right moments to grasp his audience's attention.

[@therugburnz]

I'm pretty confident photons exist. In certain cases photons do not experience time because of their lack of mass that makes it unpossible for photons to travel through space at C=1 in a vacuum. They still travel through space, and other things that experience photons do experience time. Just poking fun because I'm not a physicist and couldn't do the mathematics if I was actually accidentally correct !

[@jefflerner7526]

"The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fifth Edition (DSM-5) is the 2013 update to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, the taxonomic and diagnostic tool published by the American Psychiatric Association (APA). In the United States, the DSM serves as the principal authority for psychiatric diagnoses." (ref. Wikipedia) I believe that it is also used in other countries (e.g. Australia) by psychiatrists and psychologists. I predict that a time will come when belief in a god will be classified as a mental disorder and included in this reference book.

[@gracefontenot3024]

Absolutely love this talk. Fantastic.

[@noquarteratall780]

Being a "firebrand" as you call it does not take away the content of your arguments. While I don't think being that firebrand is necessarily needed it has it's place.

[@thisguy1073]

Man that was a powerful closing.

[@99Michaelthom]

I think you said it clearly already. How to change unchangeable minds is the same way they got unchangeable, by someone appealing to their emotions first. We are capable of reason as humans yes, but we evolved first as emotional beings. Trump knew this and won. Corporations know this and reel consumers in by appealing to their senses and feelings first. This is what churches do too to get people in the door as you know. Your friend you mention was turned away from negative emotions and voted for Trump. I know as a bartender for a corporate restaurant if I talk to people first, ask them about their day, ask them about their family in a friendly sincere way, address them by their name and engage myself with them on a deeper level than just "Hey, what can I get for you?" then I can sell them any drink on the menu and they will be sincerely happy about it afterwards. After they become regulars I can even talk to them about religion and admit to them I'm an atheist and even if they are devout christians they still like me because I've already appealed to their emotions and now they feel a sense of trust in me. This is what needs to happen on some large scale campaign to get peoples foot in the door to critical thinking. I know it seems shifty but is it really if its opening their minds to rational thought in the end? The reason christians and other fantacial religions slam the door on the idea of a godless life is because it immediately pulls the rug of emotional comfort they've been resting on for so many years. We need to find a way to offer an alterative pitch of emotional comfort first, and then deliver the critical thinking. I don't have an answer as to what that could be right now, but I think it can be done. Free home cooked dinners always gets my D&D party numbers up. Alot of people who otherwise hate family gatherings often can be talked into it by the idea of the big dinner. Maybe we could have a holiday nationwide where we invite friends and have some kind of traditional meal that appeals to a large number of people and start with that. We could invite homeless people just like churchs do. I'm surpirsed this isn't a thing already for atheists actually. We all know most holidays are marketing something anyways. Why aren't we marketing reason? I may be off on a tangent here, but my point is we should appraoch all theists with emotional connection first before we start asking them questions about their reasons for believing.

[@antonioperez4091]

Believe truth! Shun error!-these, we see, are two materially different laws; and by choosing between them we may end by coloring differently our whole intellectual life. We may regard the chase for truth as paramount, and the avoidance of error as secondary; or we may, on the other hand, treat the avoidance of error as more imperative, and let truth take its chance. William James

[@James-ye7rp]

Hey Matt, You answered your own question as to how to change peoples' minds. The answer is that it is not possible to change peoples' minds, ever. Remember, if someone comes to you saying that you changed his mind, what was your response? I (Matt) did not change your mind, you did. The scary side of this is that you can, however, set up a situation where the person chooses to change his mind. This is the expertise of religions. This is why skepticism is the best defense of mind manipulation.

[@BorGostiChan]

Now how do you levitate?

[@timothymulholland7905]

My dear mother was the best apologist. She had the biblical childlike faith. When we brought up doubts or inconsistencies, she would say, “ when we get to Heaven, we’ll ask Jesus.” I’m sure she gave him an earful!

[@ruben5292]

Hi Matt, you spoke of debating street preachers in Australië, is this by any chance recordid? And if so will this be published? Keep up the good work! Greetings from the Netherlands ;-) Ps. Sorry for my bad English..

[@stefanbjarnason251]

Hey, don't apologize; your English is one heck of a lot better than our Dutch! Cheers.

[@laurensalexander8005]

best damned preacher i ever heard. standing applause. hallelujah.

[@tomato6460]

I still miss Hitch a lot but I'm also glad Matt is kicking around.

[@jameswest8280]

I can't decide who's the better orator, Matt Dillahunty, or AronRa, they're both great.

[@kroxxy123]

I thought Matt was a dick. I hated watching athiest experience because I wouldn't let anyone finish their points. Now that I'm fully awake, I get irritated with the theist callers and want to yell at them, but then Matt yells at them for me.