Tuning In 4ths with special guest Ant Law. Alternate tunings for guitar.

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In this lesson jazz monster Ant Law talks us through Tuning In 4ths which is how he tunes the guitar, interesting but not for everyone and and there are some pro's and cons!
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[@TomasMikaX]

I've been playing in P4 for about 2 years, and I highly recommend it to anyone who is serious about studying the fretboard.

[@lz4005]

As a bass player....we're in 4ths all the time, regardless of how many strings we have, so this is all normal to me. And as a weirdo, major 3rds on a 7 string guitar is really fun. Still symmetrical and cool repeats: D F# A# D F# A# D.

[@tylermorrow4368]

Seriously, I play bass and am decent on the keys and 4ths seems way more logical in my head than any other tuning.

[@freakalishess]

I play 7 string and I've started playing bass few years ago and today I had the idea to tune my 7 string like the bass(high b to c and high e to f). And now I searched info about the tuning and here I am. But it's true, once you get used to playing the bass it makes sense to tune the guitar in 4ths except I drop the low b to a for the chugs 🤘🏻 I might try this wacky 7 string tuning you mentioned.

[@edthewave]

Isomorphic tunings are the future of chordal instruments. For guitars - All Fourths/All Fifths/Major Thirds/whole-tone, etc.. For Keyboards - Janko/Lippens keyboards (wholetone), Hexagon keys, Harmonic Maps, Symmetrical keys, ToneMatrices, etc...

[@pablop.a.7275]

If only Harpeji were not so expensive...

[@TomasMikaX]

I've been playing the guitar in fourths for about 2 years now, and it's easily the best guitar related decision I've ever made. I played in the standard tuning before that for 15 years, I play mostly jazz, but also covers and balkan folk music. Bach is also not impossible.

[@nayarlopez8655]

Thanks for your post! I have a couple of questions: how familiar with the fretboard were you when you switched? Also, what has the effect been on your playing?

[@TomasMikaX]

@@nayarlopez8655 I was fairly familiar with the fretboard (I switched to 4th a couple of years after finishing a jazz guitar bachelor degree), the most notable effect is probably that my learning curve is much better, I can get more done in shorter time.

[@doraemonpawnz]

Do you recommend it for absolute beginners? Or should we learn standard first before switching? I'm waiting for my first guitar to be delivered and was mapping the fretboard patterns on excel when i noticed the interval differences and stumbled on p4 tuning

[@TomasMikaX]

@@doraemonpawnz I guess it depends on what you want to play. For classical guitar or covering popular songs, standard is probably a better option, but if you want to play jazz or more improvisation based music, or generally be more creative with the instrument, the P4 tuning might work for you. And you can still play most of the popular tunes just fine :)

[@petergoddard1960]

Ant's new album was a breath of fresh air for me. Having explored a lot of contemporary jazz many years ago, I took a long break from it until your last video prompted me to grab a copy, and I've barely stopped listening since. Of course now I'm listening wider and there's so much to discover. Thank you, Justin and Ant for re-introducing me to some stunning music.

[@amrititbhu]

Have been playing in 4th for 8 yrs now. Cannot go back. All songs come intuitively to me now!

[@courtlaw1]

This is why I love you tube, introduced to a guitar player I never heard of and will be following Ant Law going forward. Thank you Justin.

[@gabrielwareing]

Great video, nice to see someone from the british jazz scene reaching a wider audience talking about guitar.

[@Stephen_Lafferty]

Tom Quayle and Alex Hutchings also tune in Fourths, and are well worth checking out. I think that Bob Bianco authored the first book on All Fourths Tuning in 1969.

[@AntLawGuitar]

I think it was 1983 ish actually :) that's the year I was born!

[@procarpenter1788]

Nope, sorry!

[@stealthy7]

Ant is a massively interesting guy - I could listen to you two talking guitars for hours. Some proper guitarist chemistry going on there. More please !

[@bladerunner6282]

it's all about the symmetry for me. i tried major thirds but found it a bit limiting for the four-note-closed-spacing (adjacent string) chords i use all the time. so i went witht perfect fourths and since i don't have perfect pitch and play solo it doesn't matter to me if i drop the lower four strings a half-step or raise the upper two. BTW, what a delightful conversation to listen to!

[@stefanhansen5882]

What a great conversation! Thanks!

[@xxnonstopdancingxx]

Utter madness. I spend most of my life thinking that I know 40-50% of what is out there theory wise. Nowhere near. I’m a million miles away. Different class.

[@justinguitar]

It does get to a point where it all gets simple again...

[@icarusi]

IIRC drop voicings are numbered in high to low pitch order, as are manuscript voice parts. Sometimes they end up with the same value as the chord note numbers, which are numbered low to high pitch order, but they're two different systems. If you use a different inversion, the drop voicing note changes when the voicing number remains the same, and vice versa.

[@ivicakb4208]

This is the coolest way of "perfect 4ths tuning". Jazz standards are based on Eb. I call it "bP4": Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, B, E.

[@twstdelf]

This symmetry appeals to me... but I'm not sure if I want to abandon the wealth of knowledge that's out there for standard tuning... maybe I'll test it out when I have some vacation time and experiment. ;) Cool video, thanks for sharing!

[@justinguitar]

And playing any normal song is a nightmare! But it's a fun experiment!

[@blessedheavyelements8544]

Just two mates having a chin wag :). Thanks for this and Best Regards / Best Wishes for 2022!!

[@elementsofphysicalreality]

I have been playing in all fourths tuning for about 7-8 years now. My problem is on standard tuning you accept non intuitive shapes are correct and move on. In all fourths I’m stuck between multiple intuitive shapes with nether being better or worse. But now I’m memorizing 4 shape concepts instead of just 1 which is the opposite of what it does in all other departments. Arpeggios are tricky.

[@erimsee]

Cool! Great informations. I play guitar and tenor banjo tuned in CDGA. It took me a while to play the right shapes and scales without thinking. Mayte I should try to mix things up.

[@johnnyfrisco5354]

Really interesting chat and demonstration and thanks for posting..... but I've been playing standard tuning since about 1960... and so for that reason..... I'm out!

[@louishugues4106]

I am a bass player. So tuning in 4th is natural on the guitar and for me it's perfect for melody and finding harmony using shell chords . Sure if i had to comp on guitar for a singer I would stay in standard tuning. But this I do with my bass or upright

[@courtlaw1]

I don't know why people have issues with tunning in 4ths, It is like playing a bass.

[@trevkyleaa]

I switched to p4ths 6 years ago after 10 years playing in standard. No more box shapes just total intervalic freedom and completely symmetrical. Allan holdsworth tuned hos synthax in p4ths but could never make the switch

[@jazzman1954]

I keep coming back to this tuning. If you are an improviser it makes a lot of sense. For everyone else however it is a pointless exercise I think. For reading music it’s much easier to EADGCF. Be prepared to ditch many of your favourite ideas but enjoy finding some really cool new ones. That’s my experience although I still haven’t completely been sold on the idea. Horses for courses etc etc.

[@OneGuitarist]

Very interesting. I tried that after hearing that Robert Fripp was using that. It makes more "sense" but certainly takes some getting used to :)

[@procarpenter1788]

RF uses New Standard Tuning, all fifths, except for a high G.

[@TheJoern]

I did an awesome version of Crowded House's Pinapple Head tuned in 4ths! It's the only time I tried this so far, but it's got a thing to it

[@JammyGit]

Sounds like an interesting idea.....but I have enough trouble trying to find playable chord shapes in open tunings that don't sound like Keith Richard, or slide guitar licks & phrases as well. F**k I even have trouble with drop D sometimes 😆 So I'll probably pass on it for the time being, but maybe 1 day. I need to learn more knowledge of the instrument in more 'normal' tunings for now, before confusing things even more than is necessary. 👍

[@startraveler3157]

Where can a person learn chords and scales for a guitar tuned in all 4ths?

[@RetiOrchid58]

One of my favourite guitarists and composers, Alex Hutchings, plays in fourths for over ten years, having switched from standard. I know his name was mentioned..I think if you just go EADGCF the fact that your circle of fourths goes lower to higher strings and circle of fifths higher to lower with the order of sharps and flats described by the strings (imagining a lower seventh B string), triads all the same, everything moveable, four note string sets say, E, A, D chords first fret (all E shape 5,1,3 triad inversions), scale fragments off roots same shape everywhere, makes it great for composition, speaking partly-theoretically. It's more piano. Six string Barre chords I think you fragment or find work-arounds. Alex talks about them in a recent video on his channel, as he does tuning in fourths in general.

[@procarpenter1788]

It isn’t tho. This is the second comment youve said that on. Why such a hard on for shitting on AH?

[@thephantom39]

All I took away from this was Justin actually did an interview with steve vai .. OMG! is that some where on youtube ? The rest was a bit over my head at my level...

[@northof50now]

It is on Justin's website. He's done some excellent interviews. A more current interview [and quite revealing] is on the Anderton's channel. Steve is a pretty complex guy. Great interviews for both. If you're a Vai fan, they are worth checking out.

[@NeverWolf]

Can the next episode be 5ths tuning? I play in 5ths. I find that going for a 6 string 5ths tuned instrument right off the bat makes it really difficult. However if you get your self a tenor guitar (there are electrics) and tune to either GDAE or especially CGDA you can do a whole lot of music within those constraints. It's a whole lot of range for just 4 strings, about 80% of the range of 4ths tuning with 6 strings) Once you learn on the 4 stringed instruments it becomes super easy to add strings because all the shapes are identical if you restrict your self to 4 strings at a time. Then once you get used to that you start adding in the 5th and 6th string into your chords. The range you can get out of such an instrument is nearly that of a 60 key piano. Chords with all 6 strings in play just kind of take over the whole world, you rarely need to use them in a band setting. Get this, on a 5ths tuned instrument each string interval is the next Circle of 5ths note. Bar on a GDAE instrument and your back to CGDA (mandola) Bar on a cello tuned CGDA on a 5th and you're back to GDAE. So the relationships between 5ths and 4ths start to become super clear and sticking 3rds in between is just easy after you've got that down. (CGDA is great because closed scales starting from your top string will always start with the root note of the scale)

[@justinguitar]

If I meet someone who does it well!

[@intcheese]

@@justinguitar Time to meet Robert Fripp.

[@eti313]

Fripp doesn't play in all 5ths; in NST the 1st and second string are a 4th interval. P4 is ALL 4ths. Very logical and easy to get into.

[@procarpenter1788]

Not quite, RF plays in all fifths, except for the high g, which is a major third above e.

[@S08GTM]

Hi Justin, Thanks always for the awesome content. You think you can put a lesson for "Old Love" by Clapton from his unplugged version sometime soon if you have time?

[@reghunt2487]

07:08 6-x-7-7-5-x, 10-x-8-10-9-x, 13-x-12-14-10-x, 18-17-x-14-14-x .

[@timbo4306]

I can see Justin thinking f?u"K this I'm staying where I am

[@justinguitar]

Pretty much :) I've tried it before!

[@portsmouthlivemusic]

Might have a go at this , something different (:

[@justinguitar]

I found it really strange!

[@portsmouthlivemusic]

@@justinguitar yep 100% it's like learning all over again. Eeekk

[@alancosens]

Seems to me the 4ths tuning would be very advantageous for jazz or metal-type music. I wonder if anyone plays in this tuning for country or bluegrass. Bluegrass is so open tuning-heavy for rhythms. I'd think the 4ths tuning would make navigating easier, as in bluegrass there is a lot of fast playing all over the neck, but LOT of pull-offs to open strings. Perhaps a capo that only capos the lower four strings. I haven't been able to find any bluegrass players using this tuning. Anyone know of anyone doing this?

[@procarpenter1788]

You wonder this same comment all over the fourths videos out there and the answer is no. Time to do it yourself!

[@mintonmiller]

Too much for me. I am a three chord country kind of guy. I especially love to play open tuning slide and play mandolin. This does sound like it might have some possibility when playing two and three string chords like I do on mandolin... maybe????

[@martynspooner5822]

Seems like a lot of hard work for not a lot of gain for the average bedroom guitar player.

[@justinguitar]

Oh this is certainly not for the average bedroom guitarist!

[@martynspooner5822]

JustinGuitar cheers Justin made up you replied, beyond cool.

[@johnnyfrisco5354]

Probably not for most guitarists.....

[@martynspooner5822]

Johnny Frisco Yes friend is beyond me. I get the concept but is so much other stuff I would prefer to spend my time on.

[@johnnyfrisco5354]

@@martynspooner5822 Totally agree.

[@helleeno]

17:15 where did that come from?

[@XgamersXdimensions]

Does Ant feel there is any particular benefits to tuning to 4ths the way he does rather- Eb Ab Db Gb B E- than the typical way- E A D G C F?

[@fenrir7969]

Was something to do with him regularly playing jazz in the key of Eb or something along those lines. The relationship between the strings in either variant is the same. I guess tuning down from standard tuning would have a slightly lower chance of breaking strings so there's that.

[@AntLawGuitar]

not particularly... Except for a couple of open string reference points for some jazz tunes that are in Eb and Ab and Db, there are more in those keys than E and A and D... But you can play tunes in any keys you want really...

[@RockStarOscarStern634]

@UCBNkm8o5LiEVLxO8w0p2sfQ Did you know Bajo Sexto players tune this way too?

[@kingdavidhoward]

In standard tuning, how would you tune the low E string without a tuner

[@justinguitar]

You'd need some kind of reference tone from another instrument - or find someone with perfect pitch!

[@ront8270]

I found any law really interesting...really brought things in you out too...great show

[@fenrir7969]

Similar to a way you can get to drop D from standard. Lower your E string (to anything really, as long as it is lower than a semitone) then tune it up until the 6th fret is in tune with your A string. From there, tune your A string to the 5th fret of your new Eb string and continue in this pattern across the strings.

[@BurnleyNuts]

Just imagine Ant driving a car. Being all creative and that...

[@An2oine]

Holy Norm McDonald Batman!

[@Darm0k]

I don't even like to tune down a half step. This would be way out of my wheelhouse.

[@BurnleyNuts]

This is totally fascinating to me and has now confirmed that I will never be a jazz player and that they are all utter loonies. Despite that I do love jazz to listen to but will probably never play.

[@oneeyemonster3262]

I can only do open G or D, i dont fight it and keep it simple. It sounds totally cool for celtic accoustic picking....I get brain farts if I try to play lead.lol It;s sort of like playing in E Major/C# minor in standard tuning cant let all strings ring open anymore...I get away with lots of stuff in E min..B min or A min. Any notes on the open stings works in those keys.lmao

[@atlas9964]

1st

[@justinguitar]

well done!

[@bradsims5116]

P4 is not an alternate tuning!