Tuning Octaves (Free Complete Online Tuning Course Video 2)

[@nanoawesome3802]

I can’t believe he isn’t famous or that this only has 5.5 thousand views after 2 years. He taught me more than everything else I found online.

[@henrykrinkle4546]

I found you on Josh Wright's channel and it's a bless. Looking forwards to learning how to tune 4:2 and 6:3 octaves, also how to tune the higher treble.

[@saltlakepianoservice]

Thanks! This octave in the video is a 4:2 octave check. We will continue to learn more about octaves after I finish producing videos taking us all the way through the temperament.

[@joshwrightpiano]

Awesome video Hyrum!

[@christinenorbe8618]

I have used aurally for many years but your videos are so refreshing and helpful. I can’t wait for the whole temperament video. Thank you!

[@christinenorbe8618]

Correction, tuned aurally 🤣

[@timbabcox6581]

I started learning to tune about 1 1/2 months ago. I picked up a Faulk tuning hammer, which I love. I have to learn how to tune aurally, before I'm allowed to use an ETD. I just started learning how to tune a temperament. I wish you'd do a video on 4ths and 5ths because they're much more difficult to learn how to tune than octaves. I'm loving learning how to become a piano technician. It kind of seems like it's my dream job. I love your channel. You're a fantastic teacher.

[@saltlakepianoservice]

I have now filmed a video on 4ths and 5ths, 3rds and 6ths, and a whole temperament, also setting A4 to a tuning fork. Stay tuned for when I get these edited and published. Thanks for watching!

[@davidvb9115]

Great video. I am learning piano tuning. I usually tune F3 to F4 with an ETD and then tune the rest of the piano by ear. This has helped amazingly. Thanks heaps. But the high treble is still a nightmare for me. Cheers from Australia.

[@jameshocking1954]

My man! Really appreciate the effort you have gone to, to release this kind of material to everybody out there, particularly for free! This is the first video I found which actually shows how to use the partials to aid the tuning process. Appreciate your generous spirit and you have my support! Keep up the good work! ❤ It makes a difference!

[@daveyfromdownsouth7889]

I can definitely hear them with no filter on real pianos even. Even as I'm playing I can hear them

[@AccuTunerBlogVideos]

Try measuring the 2:1 that's created by the pure 4:2 : For example, tune A4 to A440 (A4 @ 0.0). Set SAT to A5 (A5 @ 0.0), play A4 (you just tuned) and stop the lights using the cents buttons. Now, tune A3 to that setting. You've just tuned a pure A3/A4 4:2. Now set the SAT to A4 (A4 @ 0.0), play A3 and use the cents buttons to measure the width of the A3/A4 2:1 that was created by the pure 4:2. It's rare for both 4:2 and 2:1 to be pure at the same time. It can happen, but it's rare. Sometimes a pure 4:2 will result in a fairly wide 2:1, and can cause some objectionable beating which I think happened when you tuned the F3/F4 pure 4:2 in this video. When that happens, the 4:2 needs to be contracted to reduce the beating in the 2:1. In your example here, with F3/F4, I think there was more beating in the resultant 2:1 than you would have liked. For my tastes, if the resultant 2:1 is more than about 2.8 c. wide, it's starting to get a little noisy. This is totally piano dependent of course, but as technicians, we have to deal with it. Most pianos resultant 2:1 will be less than 2.8 c. wide. But many pianos will yield that 'resultant 2:1' over 3.0 c. wide - some as wide as 3.5 or 4.0 c. or more!! Those pianos require a contracting of the octave which means the 4:2 will actually need to be narrow for the most harmonious outcome. Many pianos however, will yield a resultant 2:1 less than 2.0 c. wide. On these pianos the 4:2 can be widened if desired. But care should be taken, because if the octave is widened by 1 c. to get that .5 bps in the 4:2, the 2:1 can start to get objectionable. At least for me. The problem pianos can be a real challenge, because as you know, shrinking the 4:2 to clean up a beating 2:1 can also lead to 5ths that may start to beat a little more than we'd like. The challenge is finding a compromise that leaves us with an acceptable A3/A4 octave, and acceptable A3/E4 and D4/A4 5ths. A good starting point for those 5ths is around -1.5 c. (narrow). But on some of the more challenging pianos, I've ended up with a pair of what I call 'prime' 5ths (A3/E4, D4/A4) each -2.2 c. (narrow). The A3/A4 4:2 is narrow too, and the A3/A4 is maybe a little over 3. c. wide. Sometimes something like that is the best compromise for the most harmonious outcome. All of this written because I saw the look on your face after tuning the pure 4:2, with which you didn't seem particularly happy!

[@wardm4]

This is a great comment. It's also exactly what we should expect from a piano of this size. The shorter the piano, the more extreme the inharmonicity, which is what causes the effect you're referencing.

[@dentonmarcotte1554]

Thank you, Hyrum. This is truly great and very helpful.

[@brad173]

I could still hear that the F3 was not in tune with with F4 before unison and filter. But that is still REALLY COOL to hear with the filter!

[@findus2345]

Thank you Hyrum, I have been tuning with ETD with good results and stability so far, but I want to learn to tune fully aurally. Great, easy to understand. I hope you will continue this course, fourths and fifths...

[@richardmcnally5998]

Josh suggested this site for piano tuning and I am very impressed! Thank you for all the effort you have put in. I will be spending a lot of time with you trying to learn tuning.

[@marcusvaldes]

You are AWESOME my friend. SO INTERESTING.

[@mrrcrogersjr]

Great job. I’ve been learning slowly, but your video has helped a lot. Thanks!!

[@jorgeandrade20]

Instant subscribe!

[@Aurelian76]

THANK YOU. Liked and Subscribed.

[@homebase1463]

This is amazing. Thank you for doing this. It would be helpful if you were able to maybe edit this to add a Picture in Picture of the keys your hitting each time for those of us without perfectly trained ears yet. Keep up the good work!

[@saltlakepianoservice]

Thank you for the suggestion!

[@MrEthanhines]

Thank for for being so generous to teach the general public how to properly tune their (or friends and maybe in the future their client's pianos) quick question could one use headphone and use that filter to "hear" the beats and tune appropriately?

[@saltlakepianoservice]

Yes that could be done. But I think that after a short time it wouldn't be needed.

[@MrEthanhines]

@Salt Lake Piano Service Company thanks I'm still having trouble discerning the beats. But programming software to listen to the partial? of the note. Before this video, I really had no idea that one note is not just one note; it's the note plus higher and lower frequencies

[@GuildOfTheBlackCrow]

Does tuning temerament come first or do you focus on other tunings first?

[@saltlakepianoservice]

Can you clarify?

[@RonNewmanPiano]

Hyrum, you use a filter to isolate a harmonic two octaves above the note being tuned. On a piano, it's possible to press down that note without playing it and it will vibrate sympathetically with the harmonic. But am I correct that doing so as a way of hearing the beat speed better won't work IF that sympathetic note hasn't already been tuned? (Or maybe even if it HAS been tuned?)

[@saltlakepianoservice]

Great question! First let me clarify that I don't tune with headphones and the filter playing, only as a teaching/learning tool. To your question--if you silently depress F5 in this case and play Db3 and F3 you will hear 3 frequencies beating: the 4th partial of F3, the 2nd partial of F4, and the fundamental from the strings on F5, so that won't help tune. But you could silently depress Db3 and F3 and strike a loud staccato on F5 and it would excite both the Db3 and F3 strings at that frequency and you would hear the beat rate of those two, and could then do the same silently depressing Db3 and F4 and striking a staccato F5 and comparing that beat rate to the first. But that is not a totally accurate way to tune a piano because when you actually play the string with the hammer, it has a different pitch pattern then if it just vibrates very softly. This answer is getting longer all the time... A practical way to practice and tune when the overtone you are listening to seems hard to hear is to play the Db3 and F3 while at the same time striking a staccato F5 to excite that overtone a little more in the strings you're tuning. I do this in the video if you notice because I can't hear the filter while filming without headphones, the signal is going straight into the computer for recording.

[@Whatisthematterwithyoupeople]

Thank you so much for these videos. I live in a remote area where the piano tuner has to drive 3-4 hours to get here. I would like to be able to do maintenance tuning as I am a teacher. And occasionally in my area helping out others… The cost is so high now with gas prices. I really hope you are able to continue and even recommend the equipment you use…ie electronic tuners etc. Although..are they necessary for just my own?

[@JeremyBorumComposer]

Do we have to pay extra for the costume changes? :-) Thank you Vanna!

[@johny_mac]

G'Day Hyrum, Would it be possible for you to do a video explaining the filter a little more. I saw a video a while ago about some guy that developed and made his own device that did this exact thing but cannot remember the name of the video or his web site as a sell these now. Wonder if this is what you have. Would it be a useful tool while learning.

[@saltlakepianoservice]

Good idea for a video. I use a Sanderson Accutuner IV which has a built-in bandpass filter and an RCA out which let's you hear the frequency selected if you have powered headphones or power it through an amp of some type. It is a very cool learning tool and I find that it doesn't take long listening to the beats filtered to be able to hear them better without the filter. However, it isn't the most economical tool, because the tuner costs around $1,700. I thought it would be great if someone built a bandpass filter app with controls to select the notes of the piano, but I haven't found one yet.

[@johny_mac]

@@saltlakepianoservice Thanks for that Hyrum. I found the guy that made one, his name is Mark Cerisano. His original design looks like it is using a MFJ-751B - Super Tunable CW Audio Filter with a custom made pre-amp and the filtered notes marked on the dial. He has done another video detailing a setup using 3 PYLE pha40 headphone amps and a contact microphone. Personally I use Tunelab to tune my piano but would not mind learning to tune by ear again as I did in the 80's but stopped when I stopped playing the piano so many thanks for this series of tutorials.

[@PabloCardonaMusic]

For some reason my ears heard that the pure octave had more beats than the wide one

[@saltlakepianoservice]

It's important to know that there is no "pure octave" on the piano, but we tuned this octave to where the 4th overtone of the lower note and the 2nd overtone were being tuned together. We call that a 4-2 Octave. So it could be that other overtones are beating more prominently than when you tune the 4-2 slightly wide. That's why I teach to tune it that way in this video, because it sounds better.

[@maxaudibert5793]

Thank you Sir. Unfortunately I couldn't understand why you choose Db 3 as a reference even if Db 3 is not tuned yet. Could you please explain me? Thank you!

[@saltlakepianoservice]

Db doesn't have to be in tune as long as you don't change the pitch of Db between checking the two notes. It's like having two posts and driving in a third post as a reference. You can measure from post 1 then post 2 and find out which is further away and which is closer to post 3. Post 3 is just a stationary reference that creates a beat pattern with both notes so you can compare the beat speed.

[@fastfingers110]

Approximately how streached should a octive be in the uper register

[@saltlakepianoservice]

It should sound pure and in tune and it should not sound flat but you can't put a number to it because every piano is different.

[@fastfingers110]

Thanks!

[@RonNewmanPiano]

Hyrum, I'm trying to learn how to set a temperament aurally. Do you agree with the theory that the first octave (say, F3-F4) is not set in stone, but that F4 should be adjusted if necessary to make the intervals - between, 3rds, 4ths, 5ths - come out right? Are you going to do your video on 5ths soon?

[@saltlakepianoservice]

A temperament is definitely not set in stone, whether the octave or any of the intervals. It will very slightly from piano to piano. My tuning machine that I use to filter and amplify the beats is out for repair, so I want to wait for that before I film that video. Many methods set an F3 to F4 temperament, which it sounds like you're doing. Do you have a sequence you're following? You can email me at [e-mail] and I can send the instructions Steinway tuners have used traditionally if you like. That might shed some light on it for you.

[@diegoalemiguel6271]

​@@saltlakepianoservicethank you so much for your awesome instructive tutorial. im from Argentina. can i email to you?

[@barberchopin96]

Jeez I just noticed the obnoxious case that piano has haha xD

[@RememberGodHolyBible]

Stretch tuning is very, very, bad foꝛ a perſon. I think it is a maioꝛ contributoꝛ to depꝛeſſion in muſicke ſchools. Spiritually is deſtroyeth a perſon to heare this much out of tune muſicke and ſounds foꝛ ſo long, pꝛacticing, in claſſe, in pꝛactice rooms, in concerts. Pianos ſhould be made to haue good timbꝛe which meaneth they need to be bigger, longer, oꝛ haue leſſe baſſe notes, oꝛ baſſe ſtrings made of a moꝛe flexible material. Oꝛ if they are ſhoꝛter and wound metal, with lower baſſe notes, then the notes muſt be tuned in a pure Pythagoꝛean tuning of pure 3/2 fifths and 2/1 octaues and in regards to any harſhneſſe of tone, teach people it is the reſult of bad timbꝛe and NOT bad intonation, they are two very different things. And they are almoſt alwaies conflated in this pꝛeſent and very euill woꝛld. Pianos really need moꝛe than 12 notes per octaue, they ſhould haue at the very leaſt 17, with 21, 25, 28, 53, oꝛ 77 being better. The moꝛe notes per octaue the better as long as the ergonomics of the layout be ſufficiently efficient.