TWIN EATON M90 PONTIAC SUNBIRD FIRST DRIVE!! 8LBS Boost!

Finally got the Sunbird to the point of a first test drive. Over the past few months i got the dash ripped out and a new one made, gauges installed, wiring hooked up ( at least enough to make it run). and other odds and ends figured out. After a trip around the country side, found out that with a crack of the throttle she leaps right up to 8 LBS of boost!!! Unfortunately she also pinged ( detonated) like a bit#@...... More than likely going to upgrade to an MSD boost controlled igniton for it, but just might take the easy way out and lock out the mechanical advance in an upcoming video just to see if it takes care of the problem. Race fuel might not be a bad idea either......

[@Lotek117]

I effing love this thing man, nothing like homemade highpower boosted post apocalyptic street cars haha, great job.

[@RamblinAround]

Love the look of that setup. You get it all sorted and it's going to be badass.

[@stevenboswell4524]

You could try limiting the centrifugal advance travel so you can run less total timing and still keep your initial. If I remember correctly, LS guys are running total timing somewhere in the mid teens and initial at 10 or 11 on supercharged pumpgas builds. I know it's not apples to apples, but I'd argue it's a good starting point for such a unique build! I love the twin supercharger idea and ABSOLUTELY love the choice of chassis! I would really like to see this one finished! Subscribed

[@thesquirrel914]

I believe rule of thumb is no more than 14° of advance, 14lbs of boost on an LS running pump gas and thats a safe tuneup that still delivers plenty of fun.

[@chuckwhitson654]

This is my favorite project yet

[@davidbistolas]

Thanks for the update Rotter!

[@Sludge73]

Awesome! Glad to see n hear it come to life.. I used to like a noisy Pete back in the day.. that would get old quick now! Thanks for sharing!

[@rottersgarage]

Thanks Bill! Yeah i figured the superchargers weren't going to make enough noise by themselves so i went the extra mile. Wanted this one to be as annoying as possible!

[@chuckwhitson654]

If you're worried about washing out the bearings add hi performance (amsoil, etc) 2cycle smokeless oil to fuel, even at 90:1 be better than nothing and its got wicked good film strength

[@Brodorsport]

Im super keen to see more of this car and see some WOT pulls once you get the tune downpat.

[@tmer3806]

Good work my dude 👏

[@rodbrezinski8033]

I love the look of them twin superchargers pretty cool 😎

[@mikef-gi2dg]

Now this is the craziest combo, I have seen in a while, and you did it in an H-BODY, my favorite car. I got to see how you lined up the pulleys and the blower. This is nuts enough to subscribe.

[@obbyjep7597]

That's really cool! I like how you did it. If found in my turbo 355 sbc that it runs pretty good with the timing locked out at about 22 degrees, 12 psi or so. Nice job

[@greggc8088]

Might play with the springs in the distributor so you can have a little more advance at idle so it won't surge quite as bad. Admire your creativity. Looks like something from Mad Max. LOL

[@dangerdoneright]

Or just lock it out at 20°

[@lucy327rss]

soo cool great vid!!!

[@tomconner5067]

Most pulleys that have shoulders are the grooved inner belt surface driven units, alternator, power steering, AC compressor, Water pumps some idlers and most tensioners are smooth (ride on the smooth groove free shoulder less outer or back side of the serpentine belt. I believe, if you have any reoccurring drive belt issues, you can use an inner outer dual grooved belt and use grooved shouldered counter rotating pulleys. I'd also use methanol/water injection, definitely a generous fogging if you're not intercooled, you're surging because you don't have enough ignition advance, taking out timing to correct detonation is like welding a zipper shut so you won't have to pee as often, or taking large doses of laxatives as a treatment for a bad cough, (you'll be too afraid to cough), the ignition timing doesn't cause pre ignition, so leave it in it's happy place, the causes of detonation or preignition is too much cylinder volume squeezed into not enough space In the combustion chamber, for a particular rating of engine fuel to burn efficiently and completely, yet slow enough to do so in the brief window as the piston comes to a stop TDC there is only 180⁰ of crank rotation that the power stroke makes mechanical reciprocating force and converts it into rotary motion power, and torque, twisting force. The moment of downward piston travel should ideally be at any degree of rotation after ATDC, but that's like pushing a kid on a swing and not pushing with your hands slightly before the kids backward upward motion loses its natural momentum, slowing the kid with propelling force slightly earlier reduces kinetic counter forces on the little end of the connecting rod, wrist pin, wrist pin mounting journals, upper ring lands, lower rod bearings, upper main journal bearings, casting weak points on the underside of the piston, yes it slightly opposes motion, but acts like a bat striking a baseball imagine if the pitcher was behind you, don't bend over, and you were swinging at the ball as it passes by in the same direction of your swing, you'd have how much influence and impact taken away? Anyhoo in the perfect world, or chamber, max pressure should be occurring prior to TDC in order to harness the engines output potential. Don't listen to anyone who would argue or try to correct me, when anyone who has ever made more than 1 HP per inch of displacement with consistent results knows that I have a deep and familiar working knowledge. Fix the weak link, or the source of your setback, cool the fuel so it bangs when you spark it, not when the superheated intake air low octane fuel charge pops off earlier than a first time home run on prom night, and ignites itself at 38⁰ advance, and it never shuts off just speed buggies, cluckittycatockacannuckkarrack

[@hedgepethracing9590]

Love it man..

[@geminisixx4]

Had a 1980 Monza Spyder with the 305 and the Saginaw 4spd with a 3.42 back end...But damn I love this car of yours!

[@raysoto1969]

Awesome build!.... you should add a knock sensor to control the detonation... there's a youtube video about how to add a stand alone knock sensor to the distributor

[@garysirdan5518]

Sounds good man

[@kixter36]

I was really looking for the 37 Rat Rod build to get started back on since I've started watching I see you bounce around a lot

[@rottersgarage]

Yeah, i one of those guys that has way to many projects going, lol. I will have a new video on the 37 shortly, actually welding some rod on the rear fender openings as we speak. Chassis and bottom of car is in paint, will be assembling soon. Been hammering on this thing for two weeks straight so we have some catching up to do.....

[@Chronno81]

Jealous AF! My mom had a 78 Burgundy Sunbird hatchback that I used to "borrow" overnight & joy ride in the mid 90s. They bought me the same sunbird here (1980 bright red hatchback) But it never left the yard until it got junked :( Dropping a powerful motor in one would have been so much fun! A peewee Trans Am "almost" but lighter & faster hahaha

[@Ratridez]

You got a new subscriber 😎👍

[@okiedokie3845]

Make it 2!

[@ericolsen67vw]

A tay chickapay in da win! Those twins speak their own language Nelly. . .

[@chehystpewpur4754]

just a little tip for those who do a draw through setup. you can add a touch of 2 stroke oil to your fuel and it helps some. get a good one like lucas semi synthetic low ash its an exceptional lubricant. will help the bearings last and you motor will thank you.

[@chehystpewpur4754]

you could also do something completely insane since these are cheaper than dirt. drill a very small hole to the bearings you can get to them semi safely from some direction. add a grease fitting and a cap. or use a threaded plug npt style like your block drains have. or your oil pressure. every oil change or 2 just add a few squirts from the grease gun to it. not alot just a little to replace what is washed out by the fuel. the fuel is atomized so it gets everywhere.

[@95Sn95]

I bet you could get another Lb or 2 just by increasing the height of the carb pleanum, its awful short and doesnt look as if it flows spectacularly, at this point whats in your line of sight another inch or 2 wouldnt change anything. Dont get me wrong im not knocking it this is as cool as it gets... Killer job.

[@lifeishard1211]

I sprayed a 50/50 water methanol mixture in my 2001 Pontiac Grand Prix gtp for years and never had issues with the bearings. the gen 3 supercharger rotors got cleaned, meaning the coating came off totally but even that didn't cause any issues.

[@creightonhighhorse5921]

Looks bad ass

[@mishaladara]

Milling out better bearings 🔧 sounds interesting

[@thesquirrel914]

If you have a distributor with a vacuum advance, you can plumb a vacuum line from the intake to the distributor and under boost it will shove the advance closed and youll basically run whatever your initial timing is set at. Say you run 10° @idle, under boost youd have 10° under boost. Kinda a cheap/simple yet effective way to take timing out under boost.

[@Supercharger_Carb]

Порвёт мембрану.

[@benhawke7231]

Some people call me crazy but I add 2-stroke oil at a 80 to one two stroke oil to my fuel to help with detonation it raises the octane level quite a bit it really helps and it helps with the lubrication of the engine. People always say you're going to gum up your engine but I've taken engines apart that I've ran two stroke oil in my engine for several years and never found any problems. you just got to check your spark plugs if you see a lot of carbon buildup you need to lower your you're two-stroke oil mixture. Try it once or twice you'll see what I mean.

[@rottersgarage]

Lol, you aren't the first person to suggest this. Might have to give it a try. Weather is warming up up here. A month or so and I will be able to work on it again and try to tune it in right. Maybe a little 2 stroke will help.....

[@shawnlibby675]

I here a vac leak when u start to build boost ...but i think u got the perfick cool build

[@ViewThis.]

Repeat: Many people have successfully converted these blowers to suck through carb. I'm slowly converting one. I was able to find the rear needle bearings on Ebay that are a 2-lip seal, one behind the other, the lips can hold up to Nitromethane, Methanol, Ethanol, and gasoline...They are still available and being sold. Part # INA F390978 FC65477 by Empree Specialty Machine

[@roderickmckinnon4225]

I am trying to find a set or two of these- any chance you could point me to s a supplier- everyone I have found is out of stock?

[@squidkid2]

You need some high octane for that baby and some smaller blower pulleys to get the boost to come in at lower rpm if you want to get it to produce power just putting around on the street. I think this set up is really best for the strip where you can run at high rpm for short bursts. If you turn the timing back to offset the detonation you're just cutting back your power which means your working against your self. When blowers first became a thing in the sixties that's when everyone realized that you needed more efficient fuels thus the introduction of alcohol an eventually nitro.

[@dirtypeanut6590]

Try going 2 heat ranges colder on your plugs. Also the edelbrock carb is somewhat limited in its tuning abilities for a boosted motor. It could be a lean condition causing the pinging, yes the msd boost timing master will help, but with that rapid boost increase I think you need a bigger pump shot with the carb. Also the lugging at idle is due to low stall speed on the converter. Throw a 3000-3500 stall in it and it won’t do that anymore. Have fun, enjoy it, and keep providing inspiration to me and others 👍

[@dirtypeanut6590]

If you get a chance, check out my m90 adaptation. kzbin.info/www/bejne/iV6vd3qpmMudp7M

[@rottersgarage]

Just talking about that carb last night. Hopefully ill get some time to play with it this weekend. Try to get some stiffer springs in the metering rods to see if it makes a difference, ( figuring its pulling to much vacuum at WOT and holding them down in the jets), and throw some bigger jets in the secondaries. I think right off the bat just to see how timing affects it, im just going to lock out the advance and set it at a straight 12 to 14. Then play with the fuel. Already put some cold plugs in it.... Who knows, might have to redo the upper plenum and put dual quads on it! Appreciate the input!

[@dirtypeanut6590]

Rotter's Garage I know you are on a budget, but a wideband afr gauge would be very helpful to you. That way you can dial in what rod/spring combo works out best rather than trying to read the plugs.

[@rottersgarage]

That was also brought up last night as well as putting a vacuum gauge on the upper plenum to actually see what whats going on up there under acceleration....

[@mannyR4098]

You could do what the Wankel rotary guys do to keep the seals on the rotors lubed. They mix 2 stroke oil with the gas. Might smoke a little until you get the right ratio but the seals and bearings will stay lubed.

[@vanteal]

This is some straight BeamNG.Drive crazyness.

[@chuckwhitson654]

I have a solution for the grease problem.... ams two cycle oil in the gas, or any high performance two cycle oil

[@lifeishard1211]

as far as 13", 14" or 15" tires, you might consider atv tires. there are lots of tires with those diameters if you add them to your search criteria.

[@wesleysept6536]

That body isn't bad. I can get into those as well as Monza, and Monza Spiders. I'm not crazy about that " grill" the whole front end with the lights covered. It's your car, and everyone is entitled to their opinion, I just want to " gently" suggest that there could be a better look. Thanks for the video, I do think that you are a great fabricator, and I look forward to more " educational" videos from you. Sincerely, Wes Sept

[@weebi4204]

What gasoline u running? If possible use E85 or race gas. I wanna see More of this

[@homemadeboost3969]

10psi pulleys on both disconnect the boost bypass valve and a fresh vid of a good pull would be awesome (in love with this)

[@rottersgarage]

Boost bypasses are non existent on this setup, already welded up. And I may already have a set of pulleys laying here......

[@homemadeboost3969]

Gap the plugs to .8

[@shawnlibby675]

Definitely needs timing and you need certain spark plugs with a certain small Gap maybe blowing the spark on the spark plugs

[@robertkrupa2552]

I called the guy that builds the mustang II front suspension kits in Sparta, I saw you mentioned him in another video. So his kits are good quality? Looking to do one on a 47-54 Chev truck. Great vids!

[@rottersgarage]

I have been installing his kits for years here at the shop and honestly i would't buy anything else. I have done at least 10 47-54 chevy trucks with his kits and they work awesome. The best part about them is they are designed vehicle specific. Which means each cradle is a one piece design made of 1/4 inch plate that slides right into the factory frame with little or no modification. Compared to a 3 piece mustang kit, these things have way more strength and add rigidity to the front frame section. Also because of the design per vehicle, the angles are already cut on the bottom of the cradle, so when you center it out on your axle line you just let it rest on top of the factory frame, weld it down, and all the angles are set for the cradle/ suspension.

[@robertkrupa2552]

Thanks for responding Rotter! I'm going to see if he'll do a 4-link for the rear of the truck also. I appreciate you letting me know about him, I wouldn't have heard of him otherwise.

[@2009mechanic]

Where did you find the Mad Max air cleaner for the top ? Did you custom build it also? Would a single 600CFM Holley carb over each blower inlet work better do you think ?

[@rottersgarage]

Made the scoop, the 750 cfm on it currently works great, fuel.system can't keep up though, updates soon!

[@edwardsadler6003]

Put a old vega converter in it, that give you a little stall, and it will idle and sound a lot better idling.

[@sidewayshappy6316]

all u Need on the idler pulley is a washer in the in side ov it one or two because it will eat it up if u do what am saying it will be perfect

[@daviddavis1322]

Should be good for up to 650hp crank. Fuel injection and coil on plug ignition would fix quite a few problems, but totally understand that's not the style the car is going for.

[@theTIVANshow]

Get a distributor lockout 1/2 fuel line. Make sure your cam is 114 lobe separation

[@theTIVANshow]

Gap your rings

[@shitbox7413]

A Holley over each blower inlet perhaps? 🤔

[@2009mechanic]

It may work. I don't know how you would balance them though other than use a manometer.

[@shitbox7413]

@@2009mechanic Me either, just a thought 😄👍🏻

[@codycottingham130]

You should put m62 pulleys on them youll gain more boost and they are easy to make fit.

[@linearburn8838]

sounds like it might be slightly lean under boost and I probably would use a slightly smaller pulley on the Eatons you could up your jets on the 4 barrel I ould probably shove a o2 sensor in the colectors and see if its going lean

[@rottersgarage]

Definitely was lean. Installed an o2 sensor already and it was off the gauge lean. Having a forged bottom end built as we speak. More videos soon....

[@ghosty500r]

whens the dyno tune

[@brianvalley5223]

What's that high-rev knocking noise?

[@timbrubeck4212]

Dude that’s cool as fuck

[@bc5822]

E-85 would probably make a good fuel, and increase the jet size by 1/3rd to start

[@briandale8386]

If I remember right my buddy as a kid had a car like that. The front end would handle exceptionally well, as well as a Porsche of the day. That front end can take that weight.?

[@rottersgarage]

The front end is pretty light duty on it, going to upgrade the spindles to S10 stuff at some point to get better front brakes and larger ball joints. But it runs down the road pretty good with the extra weight.....

[@mishaladara]

5:41 you should have cut holes in the aluminum dash and Frenched gauges in.

[@95Sn95]

Grt timong sorted n a Little water meth inj i.e. windshield washer fluid would likely smarten it right up.

[@K-Effect]

Do you have to worry about widening the gap on your piston rings?

[@rottersgarage]

Yeah that probably would have been a good idea. The vortec engine we threw in was just a stock engine with open chamber heads to lower to compression. Really everything so far was just to see if it would work. Once the weather warms up and we get it dialed in I am pretty skeptical on that bottom end holding up, but when we get to that point it's just a good excuse to build a better bottom end. Should have built it for an LS. Maybe put 3 on a 5.3 in the future......

[@davidmanganelli3051]

Yeah man, you autta get yourself a boost timing Master, get rid of that nasty pin you got going there brother, love the dual blowers there man. Next after that you can give water injection or methanol a shot!!!!! Good luck bud!!!!

[@jefferybarrett3423]

you could run alot more timing. I'd run atleast 20 deg under boost or just 20 all the time no advance hooked up

[@rogue7656]

We need updates damit

[@nosbeats1477]

This is godly! I am in love with this build, ive got a set of m90's and want to do something crazy to my 351 windsor in my 67 galaxie. Are you by any chances selling templates for the custom intake and the pulley assembly?

[@chuckwhitson654]

Probably need higher cfm

[@chuckwhitson654]

Bigger carb for more cfm, then jetting to get fuel air right along with high performance two cycle oil in the gas for blower lube

[@mishaladara]

How many miles a gallon? 8 or 10

[@jonjahn5769]

pontiac firebirds younger twin

[@omartorres5688]

Question is the Eaton M90 a Centrifugal type Blower that can be shut on and off?

[@rottersgarage]

No, roots style, they originally had bypasses on them, but I eliminated them on my setup and it's just all the boost.....

[@omartorres5688]

@@rottersgarage I see and being a roots type it can't be turned off and on. Also are these the M90's for a 1997 Ford supercharged V6 Thunderbird

[@rottersgarage]

No, these ones are off Grand Prix gtp's.

[@omartorres5688]

@@rottersgarage Nice and how much do these M90's go for?

[@clayclifton2255]

I have a 3.8 V6 in a Ford explore with any of them supercharger fit

[@steveesman9469]

Look for a super coupe thunderbird,they came with supercharged 3.8's in them,the turbo coupe had a 4cylinder with a turbo,think it was a 2.3?

[@dirtmudsnowandwater]

An American ford interceptor pursuit special, if you will.

[@travisabrahamson5092]

Except there are no ford parts to speak of..

[@owenarsenault5955]

Run 2 stroke oil in it. That will keep the bearings lubed.

[@tonyfischer9287]

The bearings may get lubed a little, but there will be more detonation problems.. oil + boost = detonation..

[@calvinevans8305]

Total timing around 20 degrees should be good.

[@motorheadmaximus]

This car should have been in fury road

[@melissamcallister2867]

Maybe you can spin the tires on gravel without race gas

[@nasty3145]

Have you tracked your intake temps? Those blowers are way too small and spinning way too fast go be effectively boosting the car. Youre probably even with a carb 120-130* charge temps. Even with racefuel youll still Ping. E85 is your only savior without an intercooler.

[@stevenmoney2757]

An m90 will push ~250 cfm each revolution. That motor needs ~500 cfm, 2 m90 at the same engine rpm will do that 500cfm. Spin them at twice the speed and you will have plenty of volume to outflow that engine amd stay well under the inefficiency threshold for them.

[@prestigeracingmotorsports9169]

One M90 supports a GM 3.8 so based off that you could feed a 7.6 motor with them.

[@blkmustang007]

The timing sounds way off or somthing? Exhaust leak too,gaskets? No offense but it sounds like a powerful riding mower. Maybe it's the camera. Fab work is interesting.

[@rottersgarage]

Lol, none taken. Car was running pretty lean, metering rods not opening on that edelbrock. Got that problem resolved, and yeah, no carpet and no gaskets in the collectors at the time of this video. Planning on doing body modifications in a month or so, then address the engine this spring when the weather warms up and roads are clean.

[@blkmustang007]

@@rottersgarage yea I figured I'm a car guy with a pretty good ear.... even thru the camera I could hear it. I fabricated a custom m90 setup on my k20 civic si. Made 330whp on 12 lbs...not to bad for a little 2 liter.

[@richardarvizo1112]

I watched this whole thing from beginning to end when he first started to build this goddamn thing and in the end he didn't even get on the gas for longer than a half a second that was the most no climax f****** ending to a motor build I've ever seen it's like he was afraid to go in the gas or he didn't want us to see what would happen if you actually held the gas down for longer than half a second. I felt let down and robbed and just you know burned like I just gave somebody $20 for a sack of weed and they never came back. If I ever see that car in real life I bust all the windows out of it and flatten all the tires.

[@rottersgarage]

Maybe you better figure out how KZbin works man. I melted all the pistons out of it at Cleetus and cars at 7500 rpm, little lean issue there obviously, maybe yer missing a couple of videos...

[@ERIC933G]

Can we get a quieter muffler so we can hear the superchargers

[@midixiewrecked7011]

Uh-boat Uh-boat Uh-boat Uh-boat Uh-boat

[@chuckwhitson654]

Smaller pulleys and be making BIGboost

[@danieltopp7298]

Lock ur Dissy up bro

[@paulmbylbie6065]

Stand on it lol

[@rottersgarage]

That would more than likely result in a big hole in a piston! We'll get it tuned right this spring, then stand on it, and watch the lower end make babies.... Lol....

[@paulmbylbie6065]

@@rottersgarage yeah you got a fatten it up a little first lol how many lbs you think it'll make???

[@paulmbylbie6065]

@@rottersgarage of boost I meant to say

[@rottersgarage]

@@paulmbylbie6065 well when I tapped the throttle when this video was shot I just felt the 4barrels touch the accelerator pedal and we saw 8 lbs. I'm guessing maybe 12? Really don't know or have an idea..... Also already have a pair of smaller pulleys to play with.... Weather is warming up up here, a month or so and we can dial it it to see what it really can do.

[@jesussalazar4804]

??????? 60mph Test

[@heffedirte6243]

Wal-Mart has cheap 13 inch tires

[@rottersgarage]

I checked there locally, the only thing they had or could order was trailer tires. Got some coming from e bay....

[@heffedirte6243]

@@rottersgarage wanna sell her? Lol

[@Louis-ye5ty]

😂blow it up

[@rottersgarage]

I did. And right now I'm putting the carb back on top of the intake and ready to fire it up again in the morning, just to blow it up again!!

[@curvs4me]

You're missing a plug or two. Not running good. That "Volkswagenish" sound under load is a misfire.

[@rottersgarage]

She was lean, lean, lean. Got myself a wide band o2 and saw that right off the start' especially under load. Metering rods wont open at all even with the stiffest spring in. To much pull on the carb from the blowers. Got a 750 cfm holly carb off one of my other cars to try soon, has power valve block offs in it already so should be a good candidate for this setup. Just jet up and go. Just have to find some time to try it out, hopefully soon.