Two Powers in Heaven and the Parting of the Ways (Part 2)

Is the religion of the Old Testament strictly monotheistic, or was monotheism an innovation of a much later era in the history of religion? Is the Christian Trinity an amalgamation of paganism and Judaism, or is Trinitarianism thoroughly rooted in the tradition of Israelite religion?
In this episode we first examine the foundations for Divine “Plurality” in the history of Israelite thought, and then we take a look at how increasingly diverging conceptions of the Godhead between rabbinical Judaism and emergent Christianity in the second century set the stage for the two sister religions to part ways.
VIEW PART 1 HERE:
• Two Powers in Heaven a...
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[@ConnieRossini]

Wow! Fascinating! I never knew this about the belief in 2 powers. It shows Christianity to be a logical fulfillment of the hopes of the Jews. It seems that the rabbis were moving away from the tradition because it supported the claims of Jesus.

[@dan_gocavs4110]

Protestant here. Really starting to like the Catholic Brothers... Learn a lot. Here's some Angel of the Lord passages: (Gen. 16:7-13) ; (Gen. 21:17-18) ; (Gen. 22:11-18) ; (Gen. 31:10-13) ; (Gen. 48:15-16) ; (Exodus 3:2-6) ; (Exodus 14:19-20) (Exodus 23:20-23) ; (Num. 22:22-38) ; (Joshua 5:13-15) ; (Judges 2:1-4) ; (Judges 6:11-12,14-24) ; (Judges 13:3,6,8-22) (2 Sam. 24:16) ; (Psa. 34:7) ; (Isa. 63:7-14) ; Zech. 1:8-17)

[@ChristianCathoholic]

Thank you boys. You’ve managed to stitch together about 5 pieces of mental “loose cloth” I’ve been carrying around for a decade into a beautifully coherent tapestry with this 2-parter. Can’t wait to let it sit with me for a couple days so I can listen to it all over again. May god be with you always.

[@TheCatholicBrothers]

Man this was a great thing to read. Thanks for the kind words, and so glad you enjoyed it!

[@nealkriesterer]

Hey guys, just so you know - this is currently my favorite channel on KZbin (and I listen to a lot of channels.) Keep doing what you're doing!

[@ThePropriate]

Wonderful explanation of all this and in near perfect alignment with what I have concluded from my looking at the Hebrew of the OT. Where I differ is that I believe Wisdom is in Jesus, but Wisdom is the Holy Spirit, a she and the Mother to the Son and Queen to the Father, who is King. When Moses lays his hands on Joshua, he imparts Wisdom. When the Apostles lay their hands on people, they impart the Holy Spirit. They are the same. But overall, this video was just such a great impartation of Truth. Great job!

[@jowardseph]

Finally!! Guys. You are really the best. Keep doing what you're doing.

[@nenabunena]

I've been binging your vids for 3 days now

[@jonprendergast7009]

What a fascinating discussion, these videos never cease to amaze me

[@analogiaentis]

Amazing video!

[@debbie2027]

HEY .... So nice to see you guys !

[@susand3668]

Philo of Alexandria's Word and the Memra of the Aramaic Targum? Fascinating!

[@pop6997]

Thank you guys so much for this series, for this channel, I think this will just 'take off' as word spreads.. I'm going to listen to the series again slower, take notes and book recommendations etc. Putting the Scriptures in their historical anthropological context makes me have such a better understanding of the early Church and really appreciate the Church so much more as she moved through the centuries! Also, the evolution of Rabbinic Judaism, and the logical reasons for this, puts St. Paul's words in the correct context with greater understanding. The 'Jews' of the early Church are so diverse with all these sects and Scriptures its mind blowing - realising this really helps understand the world of Jesus and the personalities of the Apostles and characters of the Scriptures. The trial of Jesus makes so much more sense now too! The questions, how they're phrased and the answers... Excellent, excellent conversation that invites a deeper dive on so much. God Bless both of you, Father, Son & Holy Spirit ;)

[@chasnikisher7006]

Thank you for this series, please hurry up and give us more Would you please recommend a book or books to accompany your videos.

[@TheCatholicBrothers]

We have talked about releasing an accompanying reading list for folks. We’ll do our best to keep mentioning books along the way, too.

[@noralg3081]

This is one of my favorites very informative. thank you

[@Facconti]

St Epiphanius of Salamis (†403), himself of Jewish background, made the bold claim that the Trinity was in fact always known to the Hebrews: "ἐν μοναρχίᾳ μὲν οὐν κηρυττόμενον τὸ ὄνομα, ἐν δὲ τῇ μοναρχίᾳ ἡ τριὰς ἀεὶ κατηγγέλλετο καὶ ἐπιστεύετο παρὰ τοῖς ἐξοχωτάτοις αὐτῶν, τουτέστιν προφήταις καὶ ἡγιασμένοις." "The Name was proclaimed in one principle (monarchia), but the trinity was always announced and believed in the mono-principle (monarchia) among the most eminent of them, that is the Prophets and the advanced in sanctity." Panarion 8, 5, 5, translation mine. Also take note that even the Rabinical liturgy resembles more a Mass than a Protestant service, since its form in the morning office of feast days is completely analogous to Mass: it is divided in two parts, the first is Yotzer (יוצר) and the second Musaf (מוסף). The first consists in praises, psalms and prayers, and the second is the sacrifice of the day, which is replaced by the recitation of the verses from the book of Numbers containing their description, asking forgiveness for not being able to offer the sacrifice except in words, etc. Between both parts the parasha (פרשה) and the haphtara (הפטרה) are read, which are readings from the Pentateuch and the Prophets (readings of Law and Prophets, as we see in the NT). Note that the Talmud (Thaanit 24b) claims that the reading of the sacrificial ceremonial described in the Law is imputed as the sacrifice and obtains forgiveness of sins. I take this information from the very interesting book "Harmonie entre l'Église et la Synagogue" by the 19th century Rabbi converted to the Church David Paul Drach.

[@AntwanRSmith]

Very well done.

[@jdlyonsky]

This reminds me of an argument put forth by Jonathan Gray in his book The Forbidden Secret. It could be that Jesus Christ is the universal Messiah that was foretold even in the Zodiac.

[@TheCatholicBrothers]

Check out our episode on the magi, if this general topic interests you! 👍🏻

[@reina.felipe]

Amazing content. Thank you!

[@simplydanny]

You were right when you said I would enjoy this episode. Right up my alley. Also added a few books to my list to read. Maybe you mention it but Benjamin Sommer’s book The Bodies of God and the World of Ancient Israel also touches on this topic. He’s also Jewish. I love the ancient near East but never heard of the Horite Hebrews, another piece of the puzzle, love it. Any recommendations on a book on the Horite Hebrews?

[@TheCatholicBrothers]

Hey Danny, so the bit about Horite Hebrew Theory is an anthropological hypothesis that is really expounded by an army of one Dr Alice Linsley and the community that she has built around her. She is an independent scholar who publishes all of her work online, and other anthropologists in her circle engage with her (and often agree with her) on her forums. Here is a link to her blog where she posts her work (she also runs a society on Facebook called The Bible and Anthropology). Nota bene: One can take her theory or leave it and still end up in the same place in our channel’s narrative, but we find some of her insights extremely thought-provoking.. It definitely seems to fill a lot of gaps in the Old Testament texts. Consider joining her Facebook group if you dig this kind of stuff. jandyongenesis.blogspot.com/2011/01/who-were-horites.html?m=1&fs=e&s=cl

[@simplydanny]

@@TheCatholicBrothers thanks for the information, keep it going guys!

[@damoncasale5305]

@@TheCatholicBrothers But wasn't Abraham from **Ur of the Chaldees**, not Egypt? And I'm sorry, but Nimrod was NOT a Kushite prince, he was a Sumerian. I posted extensively on this on your Facebook page.

[@paulodasilva7701]

Thanks, bros! Amazing video that answered all my questions around first century Christianity and Judaism.

[@alexandreferraro]

Your work was huge! Thanks. It sorted information I already had and added new ones. Question: Abraham came from Mesopotamian civilization. What the aforementioned author suggests is an Egyptian influence on all those cultural manifestations?

[@TheCatholicBrothers]

Hey Alexandre! Glad you enjoyed the episode. With regard to Abraham, Abraham indeed originates in Mesopotamia, but his story post-dates an era of prolific travel and “settling” of the (theorized) Horite Hebrew caste from Egypt, with a religion of God-Father/God-Son, death/resurrection, etc. The anthropological roots of Abraham’s faith pre-date the Abrahamic narratives. Here is a link to a quick blog post by Dr Alice Linsley (biblical anthropologist) that may be helpful for getting started on that theory. jandyongenesis.blogspot.com/2014/03/abrahams-habiru-ancestors.html?m=1

[@AliceLinsley]

Abraham is a descendant of Nimrod, a Kushite kingdom builder (Gen. 10). He established his territory in Mesopotamia. The oldest known site of Horite Hebrew worship is Nekhen on the Nile (4000 BC).

[@Theblesspodcast.]

So is the purpose of the preaching of the gospel a reclaiming of the territory not just in the spiritual but also in the natural sense.

[@trinny881]

Hello! Headship order 1Corinthians 11:3 KJV

[@clarekuehn4372]

Please put part 1 link into the description below the video.

[@Louis.R]

See also "Spine of Scripture" by Dominic Bnonn Tennant (Divine Assembly, sons of god, Psalm 82 etc)

[@rolandmartinez613]

Awesome!

[@Lily-rz8mg]

Thanks so much for this! I don't know if you will see this comment, since the video was posted a while ago. But I have a question about your argument that monotheism is older than polytheism. My question is about where animism fits into all of this. I have heard that it is the oldest form of religion. If you could suggest any texts to read on this topic, I would appreciate it! You guys are doing great work, please keep it up!

[@TheCatholicBrothers]

Hey Lilly, thanks for the comment! First, again, we have to be careful about these “ism” labels because they really are mostly 19th century inventions and none of them accurately describe what the ancients themselves believed. It’s really that the hope of resurrection through a divine, resurrected one (typically situated in a religious schema of God-Father and God-Son) that is the most ancient aspiration, and therefore the original religion, of man. The pagan, syncretistic pantheon that we commonly call “polytheism” today (which we associate with the ancient empires) was itself a development of empire-building. As nations bound together, whether by covenant or by conquering, the amalgamation of each nations gods into a large pantheon was part of the empire-building process. Prior to empire, each nation/chiefdom had their own high god, a son of that god, and a plurality of lesser divinities. The work of Dr Alice Linsley in the realm of biblical anthropology is particularly helpful to get your foot in the door on this stuff (linked below is a blog post from her on this topic). Dr Michael Heiser’s research on the Divine Council is also a great resource for understanding the ancient Hebrew religion iteration of these fairly universal cultic themes. biblicalanthropology.blogspot.com/2022/04/the-oldest-known-religion.html?m=1

[@Lily-rz8mg]

@@TheCatholicBrothers I'm so sorry for the late reply, but thank you for your response! This is s helpful! Thanks and God bless with the rest of your work :)

[@ConnieRossini]

It reminds me of the saying of C.S. Lewis, "God gave men good dreams."

[@qboxer]

An absolutely fascinating explanation of our view of the Lord, in all his parts. What I am curious about is how the Spirit fits into this binatarian view? I was surprised that you didn’t address this much

[@TheCatholicBrothers]

Because trinitarian theology develops more robustly within the Christian movement from the late 2nd century through the end of the 5th century. Prior to that, the Holy Spirit was either identified with the second power or seen as the active principle of each power. But a distinct hypostasis? Not yet.

[@qboxer]

@@TheCatholicBrothers thank you very much for the rapid reply. If I understand correctly, the Early Church fathers would have seen passages like the descending of the scripture as a dove on Christ at his baptism to be representative solely of the power of the father?

[@TheCatholicBrothers]

@@qboxer some would, yes, especially in that late first/early second century era. But that became increasingly untenable, partly, because of the baptismal formula itself insisting on three, distinct Names being invoked over the one being initiated. The slow formation of the canon also helped in this regard, especially the Johannine writings, where the Paraclete is clearly portrayed as a distinct hypostasis.

[@rexgloriae316]

Still haven’t finished but didn’t Egyptians have a pantheon as well?

[@ultimateoriginalgod]

What theory of formation of the old testament do you guys find credible? It seems this view of the development of Judaism is not connected to any Old Testament development hypothesis, so I am I curious about you opinion on that. That is also important since schoolars will deny things from the narratives like the unified Solomon kingdom, the Yahweh/Baal/El Eliohn sincretism, and the existance of the patriarchs. Just a question since that is still a worry for me. Love the work. I had forgetten about the two powers in heaven hypothesis and this was refreshing! 🎉

[@samtallen4156]

Great video ! Quick question though. Could the RC absolute divine simplicity have something to do with the fact that we are “plagued by monotheism?”

[@TheCatholicBrothers]

I wouldn’t trace it to that at all, no. Divine Simplicity pre-dates post-schism Christendom by a thousand+ years. The plague of monotheism comes much more directly from liberal modernity, from ideological movements stretching from the 19th century German academy and even back to the Reformation itself.

[@t0nyr4m0s]

Nice topic. Agreed with you until the topic of the saints. 😊

[@TheCatholicBrothers]

@@t0nyr4m0s we’ll get you there, eventually lol 😉

[@trinny881]

Hello! God Almighty Exodus 6;3 KJV and his name alone is the most high Psalm 83;18 KJV so Praise JAH Psalm 68;4 KJV

[@darrylsieker6428]

Finding out that Jesus Christ is the Alpha and Omega, learning that Jeshua was confessing to Caiaphas that He Himself was the Son of Man in Daniel's vision of the Ancient of Days. And numerous other biblical connections that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God; and there would be none other. I am left no other choice but to deny Catholicism as a legitimate witness of Christ's teaching. For Jesus Himself (God) said "There can be no other Gods before me." Yet Catholicism teaches that their pope is the vicor of Christ? The original meaning implying the pope's supreme primacy. Both involving all honor and of jurisdiction over the Church of Christ. I pray the LORD begin a revival and draw out those in the catholic cult out of the beast. Amen and Amen! Maranatha!

[@michaelpsellos770]

Can you recommend some resources about this Primordial religion of godfather/son

[@theeonlyway9582]

Isn't the Septuagint older than any Old Testament in Hebrew or Arabic?

[@reginaldlott236]

Isn’t there a missing piece in the text that leaves the Son of Man’s identity a mystery? And doesn’t Melchizedek admit he isn’t the messiah? I this is a little misleading.

[@analogiaentis]

Do you guys see a parallel between the Memra of the Targums and the Kabbalahistic concept of Adam Kadmon, divination of the race, unifying macro and microcosm.. as a cheat around Christ as the divine Logos?

[@reginaldlott236]

The Angle of THE LORD is HIS Avatar, for lack of a better word. THE ANGLE OF THE LORD is how people like Jacob can wrestle with HIM face to face and live!

[@DrIndyJones]

spel_of_the_Kingdom_A_First_Century_Hebraic_Perspective_2nd_Ed

[@badrobotintel]

Just curious are you really Catholic or is this just a monitor if you're really Catholic what is your stance on the four dogmas given to Mary do you accept them or reject them and your answer will tell me more about whether I should listen or not listen

[@TheCatholicBrothers]

@@badrobotintel ? We are practicing Catholics in the full communion of the Catholic Church. The topics we cover in our First 500 Years series predate most of the issues that created the Protestant-Catholic-Orthodox divide, which is why this channel is predominantly a safe space for all devout Christians of good will who wish to engage, discuss, debate, reflect, and contribute to the narrative we are drawing out for folks who are interested in the early Church.

[@badrobotintel]

@@TheCatholicBrothers so what can you tell me about the Trinity in the Old testament seeing how you accept things not in the Bible about keep in mind I believe in the Trinity in the Old testament but coming from you guys those four dogmas really do you in You've checked your brain at the door

[@TheCatholicBrothers]

@@badrobotintelI’m just not sure that’s a genuine question more than it is a conclusion in search of a question. Is there something you really would like to know/discuss? If so, please rephrase your comment. Otherwise, thanks for listening.

[@badrobotintel]

@@TheCatholicBrothers you answered it already

[@TheCatholicBrothers]

@@badrobotintel “those four dogmas” brought to you by the same “unbiblical” Church that gave you the Trinity. lol You’ve checked your ecclesiology at the door, and that’s why you can read Scripture all day every day but never really grasp its broad content and the entire goal of salvation history.

[@richy11ify]

Or in the Ancient Near East we have these cults worshipping these three God's, or when people attribute Easter or Mesopotamian religion, Don't get me started with the whole bunny and eggs for Easter thing when in reality it is what in the middle ages they thought that bunnys were virgins until they had a young bunny so in reality it strikes back to marian thought and the eggs as a ressurection. These weird things people think sometimes, don't get me wrong in my past i went down the christmas tree hole and fell for that shannagins.

[@tafazzi-on-discord]

I was wondering why you never express the word "hebrew" to mean "descendant of eber", which would be Abraham's grandfather. I thought that's where the word came from.

[@TheCatholicBrothers]

The most likely, from the world of biblical anthropology, is that the word Hebrew is from the Akkadian “Abru,” which means “priest.” Other variants are “Apiru, Ha-biru, and Ha-piru.” It was a term that referred to an ancient caste of priests associated with sun shrines, called “O-piru.”

[@seanflanagan2441]

@08:25 "… and Christianity is the *fulfillment* (Daniel's emphasis) of…." Well guys, I wish you would review your thoughts on this. Christianity is not the _fulfillment_ of anything; rather, it is more the latest and greatest refinement in the understanding and disseminate the Supreme Being's relationship with us. Iesu is more of a fulfillment, but only in the most general-even somewhat abstract-way, being the fulfillment of God's promise(s) to us, from Adam all the way down to the Christ. jus' sayin' "Thanks God" for your ministry; you guys are helping me attain a deeper understanding and richer faith.

[@declansceltic198]

Denying that Christianity is the fulfilment of religion would necessitate that it could be superseded/replaced, which is absolutely unacceptable to a Catholic paradigm.

[@seanflanagan2441]

@@declansceltic198, while I appreciate your engagement, I am unable to comprehend the foundation of your argument. This 'forum' isn't likely an appropriate place to explore our ideas (and beliefs?) so I dearly hope that this … question, if you will … may be discussed in a broadcast video.

[@declansceltic198]

@@seanflanagan2441 Catholicism (which is the religion of these two men) does not allow for a progression of Christianity into another belief system. There's no "further" revelation to be given, at this point - the Jewish religion has been perfected and finalised in the Catholic faith.

[@seanflanagan2441]

@Declan Sutherland , I have the same conviction (and I expect they do as well). That being said, I am befuddled with the assumption that they-or I-would "progress" to another religion. Frankly, I (sometimes vocally, and on occasion publicly) express the conviction that any step in any direction away from foundational catholicism is devolution. In essence, turning to paganism … or worse. As previously expressed, I would like a full airing of our ideas, but buried in the comments of a YouBoob vid is not ideal, and actually not at all beneficial to us. Vivat Iesu!

[@Mr196710]

No. They sacrificed to idols (demons).

[@makaikenneth6501]

These are the facts ignored by the Some Jews, Muslims and other so called Unitarians. I don't however see why you talk of Catholics because we are disciples of Messiah all over the world. Okay i appreciate what you are trying to make some see.Unless we deny that Genesis ,Exodus and Judges which show God's fluidity. God is one but undeniably the Spirit of God and another one is seen in these texts. Saying God can not enter his creation or manifest in any form is not supported by these texts In Genesis,the Spirit is there before creation and in both Tanakh and Quran we don't read of the creation of the Spirit. God appeared to Abraham,Hagar,Isaac and Jacob To Hagar she said i have seen God but it was the angel of the Lord who even spoke in first person and even said i will bless him and multiply him So did the Angel of the Lord tell Jacob i am God whom you met at Bethel And later Jacob says i have seen God face to face So did Manoah and his wife we have seen God and not died The 3 men who appeared to Abraham even ate food one was the Lord Moses in the FIRE sees angel of the Lord and the voice says I am God of your fathers Abraham ,Isaac and Jacob . Then God speaking in the CLOUD Peoeple are biased but let them explain all these if God did manifest and show his glory in creation The messenger also acted in some cases as the sender.This is messiah who is the sender but also sent one. he is God at certain points by reference but not the Father. He claims God's attributes like I AM THE FIRST AND LAST Just like the Angel of the Lord would speak in first person at times and they refered to him as God but was not God the FATHER.

[@trinny881]

Hello! Jesus is the son of the highest Luke 1;32 KJV he is not God

[@rickjohnson7951]

The Father has a personal name- YHVH/YAHWEH and the Son YESHUA. What is your 3rd person's name 🤔? And a little research will reveal that Jesus is a made up name from the 16th century. You guys are able to do algebra, but add 1+1 and get 3🙄

[@Rabbinicphilosophyforthewin]

Huh? Jesus/Iēsous is the Greek version of Yehoshua/Yeshua. Not 16th c.

[@lukasmakarios4998]

You guys have no clue about anything you're discussing. Hopeless. You don't know any Egyptian mythology. Don't relate your BS to Christianity.

[@TheCatholicBrothers]

lol comment award goes to our guy Lukas here 🏆

[@ultimateoriginalgod]

I think you have particular talking bouts by atheists and evengelicals when discussion this. This is not that lol