NEW! Lyman Brass Smith Powder Measure and Stand

[@whitehedr]

I didn’t think the Varget drops were consistent at all. Your video talked me out of buying this unit.

[@patdennis3751]

I have been using an old RCBS measure for about 30 years. After MANY tries with it I have decided these type measures are only really accurate with ball powders. They are good with stick if you throw light and trickle up, but no good to hit a specific target weight with stick powders.

[@TheRealCCSmith]

I have that powder meter... I get the most consistent results of I let go of the drum and let it fall. I use Varget more than any other powder and it will consistently drop within 2 tenths every time. If you want it closer than that use a trickler, your don't want to hurry match loads.

[@nvdwarriorLtc]

Gavin, every powder dropper I have used, I was taught to make sure I used a firm upward stoke and downward stoke to ensure the powder continues to compress evenly below the buffer. Actually, during a class given by an outstanding preceision reloading instructor, he suggested we learn to slam/slam the handle and make sure the velocity is the same for consistency. It looked like you were really moving that handle slowly. Not sure this helps with giving you consistancy. Thanks for the video. I just bought this product and wanted to see what is does compared to my RCBS.

[@TexasLeverGunner]

My 12 year old RCBS Uniflow will throw H4350 down to 2/10ths or better with a good slap of the handle up and then down. It's also well worn in though... it's been 6 months. How did this charge thrower compare?

[@nvdwarriorLtc]

@@TexasLeverGunner Honestly, my RCBS dropper is ten times better than the Lyman. Too many issues you have to watch. The hopper does not remain seated and eventually loosens when you meter the powder. The powder adjustment screw frequently becomes loose and you have to reweigh a new charge and try to tighten it down with that pain in the neck screw. Nope, I am not satisfied with it and have relegated it to dropping only 12 gauge shotgun loads......you get what you pay for I guess. I have never had to tighten my RCBS once is is set up. It holds the load. I still check every ten drops by scale as taught.

[@TexasLeverGunner]

@@nvdwarriorLtc Right on. Lyman should have never strayed from the old No. 55.

[@andyprairiedog]

Thank you for your insight and comparing it to the RCBS. I was just looking a this because it was of course costing less than the RCBS. I'll go with the RCBS 😀

[@leviweaver1058]

You should do a comparison video on different types of COAL gauges. Such as the hornady that uses cases and pushes the bullet, the frankford arsenal that measures from the barrel side, and theres some other kinds. Compare for consistency and accuracy.

[@WhiskyTangoFoxtrot33]

Please do a review of the Lyman Brass Smith Case Trim Xpress when it comes out. Looks very promising.

[@HuntShootOffroad]

I literally just bought a Hornady stand for my RCBS powder thrower. It's great that Lyman have allowed a similar quick release function for emptying the powder!

[@HuntShootOffroad]

@Robert Ross yes, the Hornady powder stand had the LNL bushes!

[@jonathanrogers9961]

would love a re-test with your high precision scale

[@samnami7235]

How about doing a "powder measure shootout" focused mainly on handguns? I've been trying to find the ultimate powder measure for my 9mm and .40 s&w.

[@doghousedon1]

RCBS, Hornady, Lyman, one powder measure is as accurate as the other. So pick your favorite color. The stand however, is the best. With it one can mount on the wall, upside down under a book shelf, right side up, you get lots of options there. And orange WILL go with green or red. Thanks for the vid.

[@QEngineering]

Hi Gavin, I got this Powder Measure as a black Friday Door crasher deal, Mine was missing the Baffle, I contacted Lyman (because the store I got it from is a pain for returns) and I had a replacement shipped out to me within 3 days. This unit is more accurate then my old one and I couldn't be any happier. Thanks for the video, I got a great upgrade for my shop that I would have missed out on.

[@Ultimatereloader]

Good deal! Lyman is a great company to deal with...

[@MSB-rq9xd]

I recently purchased a Brass Smith Powder Measure and Stand. I don't know about stick powder yet, but I'm loading 15.5 grains of W296/H110 for .300 Blackout loads, and this thing is wicked consistent. I'm using the Hornady G3-1500 digital scale (backed up with a RCBS beam scale). I'm getting 9 out of 10 throws dead-on with 1 being + or - .1 grain. Maybe when I get back into loading .308, I'll see what stick powder does, but right now, I'm very happy with this measure.

[@MPGunther1]

Getting ready to jump in and enjoying your informational videos

[@ronhardin6429]

I bought one of these and could not get the metering tube loose from the rotor to clean the gunk out from shipping. I ruined the threads trying and never budged the tube. Lyman sent a whole new unit, but it too would not disassemble. I called Lyman again, was instructed to use penetrating oil on this threaded tube, thats only supposed to be hand tight, and that if I ruined it again they would ship new parts. I let it sit for 2 days with penetrating oil, no dice by hand. Used a leather belt and pliers to finally break it loose, no damage. i finally got it clean, measured 4.8 grains of CFE Pistol for 100 rounds and kept within .1 grains. I'm finally very satisfied. That part on 2 different units should not have been that tight but I do applaud Lyman's customer service.

[@6Sally5]

Sorry...the Varget drops did not come anywhere close to “consistent” where I would feel comfortable not having to weigh every single charge. Pistol drops were “consistent”, however.

[@HuntShootOffroad]

You can always set the drop a little low and trickle up

[@mightyjoeyoung1390]

It's from internal static, preventing the powder from dropping smoothly. (Note how it clings in the hopper) A quick rub down with a dryer sheet will virtually eliminate the issue.

[@jonathanlovelace2220]

I have the same powder measure and like you've experienced with Varget, it does no drop consistently. I trickle up every charge.

[@jondoecan]

@@mightyjoeyoung1390 Thanks for the dryer sheet note. I was using Herco for some 9mm (old book from the mid 80’s) and it was sticking everywhere. Was actually a pain.

[@KingRatt]

He is cycling if way to gingerly. Should click up and down.

[@Silverone858lol]

I always pull the handle 10x into the bottle and then start fine tuning, then 10x once I get what I want and divide that by 10. Oh and I back up my digi scale with a rcbs beam.

[@boricuaarecibo9259]

I wanted to see how the powder charge is adjusted. Did I miss that?

[@txzebra]

I picked one up last year with the AA-8 turret kit and I've been pleased with it. HP 38 meters very consistently once you get it settled in and the powder doesn't leak at all. Cleaning all of the powder out of the drum can be a bit of a chore but it's not too bad.

[@kraggman]

I "double tap" the handle up and down when throwing for better consistency. Using RCBS which is excellent.

[@bpresner56]

Great video. Can you show us how to load from depriving to finished bullet for a 9mm and a .380 please?

[@BrunoRodrigues-qg4zu]

Old Or new lyman Ideal #55 is unbeatable!

[@SlavicCinnamonRollie556]

so ideal 55 is better than this one and Lee precision? im kinda looking for something to use so i would like to hear your recommendations

[@MbalmR97TX]

Based on the ranges of powder measures this should work for shotshell reloading?

[@curtiseggemeyer5681]

Very nice powder measure and stand , Varget can be tough to meter. nice video

[@betopatino5114]

Great video but in setting up the powder measure. I found that the RCBS Base Plate 3 works great with RCBS presses , etc and less holes in the table plus you don't need to look any where for mounting screws because it's all included in the kit.

[@JohnnyBallou]

Great demo! Now I'll have to retire my old Lee! Thank you!

[@PaoloMist]

But the lever for rotating the drum is mounted on the contrary. The cylinder that regulates the dose of powder must be positioned behind to facilitate the use of the handle.

[@tomnelson3362]

I have the Brass-Smith powder measure. This is my second year using it and now the powder hopper after 25-25 rounds starts to back out. I constantly check for this condition now but I have had the hopper fall off the frame. Any Idea what is going on and how I might fix it? Lyman had no ideas at all.

[@jamessutherland5107]

I use a powder throw like this, and set a grain under target, and power trickle to weight. Actually pretty quick, so not too sure about upgrading to a power dispenser

[@joshuaschmidt5552]

The variation is definitely from how you are holding the charge lever, not by the handle.

[@erich9111]

It seems the hopper is a little small. How many rounds to you expect to load before you have to refill? Is it consistent for different levels of fill in the hopper? Is the material resistant to the chemicals in the powder, or should it be emptied after every use? How much fiddling does it take to get the average powder throw to a specific weight you want? Are the graduations easy to see and use?

[@HuntShootOffroad]

I though the same about the capacity. Shouldn't really leave the powder in the hop as it can absorb moisture and affect it's use.

[@angelarroyo4790]

what ever happened to the orange show case?? i was very much looking forward to that video

[@fisoxlt]

I was shocked at how small the hopper is when you pulled it out of the box. Looks to be the same as or smaller than Lee's.

[@TheCleanist]

I have this measure and it's great,but as a new reloader I now need to order another tube because of the powder issue. Why wasn't it in the manual or in a video. The tube is almost a consumable. Lesson learned too late

[@adamwilson8559]

It would be really interesting to do this weight test (repeated throws into the same case on a zero-ed scale) vis-a-vis a single throw of powder in the same case, measured over and over again on the same scale. I haven't used that exact scale, but I can tell you every small digital scale like that I've used has a surprising amount of variance on repeated measures from a single tare. In their defence, they do tend to be much more accurate if you zero in between every weight and take your time. Anyway, thanks for this and all your other videos. Great stuff!

[@Mark-uq9km]

I use the Lee powder measure with some features I like better than the Lyman and some Lyman features are better. For example, with the Lee measure a one pound canister of the powder you're using can be mounted as it's own reservoir to avoid powder confusion. On the other hand, being able to dump the powder back into the reservoir during calibration gives Lyman the edge. I think both are very good choices. I do like the Lyman mounting stand better.

[@shaundoodles]

I’m not sure why Lyman went this way. The #55 was old-school but very effective. The Harrell design is an improved copy of the #55.

[@garrytalley8009]

This powder measure was made to make it more affordable. Have you looked at the price tags on Brass Smith products? They are less expensive. I can see one advantage in the emptying of the powder measure with the way it disconnects. I am sure if used properly it will work as any powder measure of its design works. Just like the new rifles these days that are made less expensive by redesign. They can do as good a job on target a lot of the time but not always as good as the more refined more machined stuff of a more complex design.

[@yankeeastronomer1927]

My 30 year old Lyman 55 still throws perfect powder charges. Recently loaded 600 rounds of .45 acp. The powder charge was consistent from start to finish. I'd like to get second one because I'm thinking of buying one of those hollow drop through expander dies that combine belling the case mouth and charging the case. I have one turret head for my Lyman turret press dedicated to .45 acp. This would speed things up slightly. A second powder measure mounted to the bench would be used for everything else. Unfortunately, I dont think Lyman makes the 55 anymore.

[@gwidwock]

I like the way it comes off so you can dump the tube. My RCBS does not have that feature.

[@leviweaver1058]

My rcbs quick change has a spout that it comes with and emptys powder very fast

[@chevy6299]

I would like to see it throw a 3 grain charge. Sometimes the smaller charges are harder on the dispenser.

[@jayyoung5627]

I throw 5gr charges with mine all the time. Granted it's with ball powders but it does a great job

[@boricuaarecibo9259]

Great video love this powder measure it will look great on my bench

[@brianmadison436]

So I've looked everywhere and it is 50/50 to wash is in soap and water or alcohol (the whole unit) then blow dry and possibly graphite spray lube or rag wipe and run a pound of powder through it????? I have a gen 6 but ball powders are kinda a mess to clean up and are so easily metered and faster by far in this unit. Can you please tell me how you cleaned to get it to work so well on its maiden voyage? Thanks so much!! Videos are awesome!!!

[@thomascarey197]

Can you mount this to a layman turret press and make it work?

[@hewlett260]

Funny, my Redding BR30 powder measure has only ever had a difference of a tenth of a grain from first throw to settled with both Varget and H4350. I trickle the final tenth but still. This Lyman seems disappointing.

[@kengarrett5015]

have you ever reviewed anything that you didn't like? I never here any cons about anything.

[@Jiminico]

And you never will. He works for and with the companies and works whatever angles he can with everything.. which is fine as long as he discloses this and lets everyone know where his main interests lie and how he derives his income, products, etc. That’s why I find it very bold of him to be now begging us for money by supporting him on Patreon and buying his shirts. But you’re still not going to get true reviews here. I still like Gavin and have watched him since he started KZbin, but those are the facts. Take with a grain of salt and always try to see or guess what the important omissions may be.

[@roccofiori1961]

And yet you haters are still here for his content ☝️

[@DM49-]

just learned that some of these new powders if left in this lyman measure will deteriorated the clear plastic tube. if your one that likes to have a separate measure for each powder/caliber you load, your going to have to empty after every use.

[@davidward8682]

my lyman 55 powder measure does not fit like that to my stand.unless of cause i have lost something

[@stevedavid2315]

I have an issue with Varget, it seems to bind when I try to do the drop, when I flip the handle, it will not full turn, it take a few times to get it to fully turn few times and drop Varget, I have no issues with any other powder, have you experienced this with Varget?

[@bustabass9025]

Just curious. You have the charge adjusting mechanism facing outwards toward you. Is that by preference, or is it made to be assembled and function that way? My RCBS powder hopper I got with my Rock Chucker ll kit thirty years ago functions with it in back of the hopper. I find that preferable to having that somewhat obtrusive levering action in full view with every charge/reset stroke. Also, I noticed a wide variance in the charges thrown in this demonstration. Hopefully, it has settled down and is now delivery more consistent weights per throw, like my thirty year old RCBS product.

[@Matt_12_1]

when you dump the powder out of the case, how do you know you got all of it out. When reloading the case lube I use causes the powder to stick. any tips?

[@pa6552]

wash your brass after sizing to get rid of any lube.

[@donmarshall4888]

Just bought one, set it up and got much the same with IMR 4350….very inconsistent. I’m sending it back because it’s almost 2 full grains in range of drops. Not what I want to depend on, even for pistol powder charges.

[@POOKIE5592]

For the settle-in, why not just hold the powder bottle under the tube?

[@jspear2755]

I was looking for some equipment to start reloading and after I watched you videos on the new Lyman 8-turret I decided to buy the Brass-Smith® All-American 8™ Reloading Kit. It comes with this powder measure and I was wondering if I was going to need to upgrade or not but now my fears have been swept aside. I can't wait to try it out when I get back from Iraq just gotta decide on which die sets I should get for 5.56, 45/70, 30-06, and 45 ACP. Any reccomendations on what brands to go with?

[@carterrowe1844]

Lee pacesetter dies worked well for me and aren't super expensive, I reccomend 4 die carbide sets for you pistol calibers

[@martincyr1370]

@@carterrowe1844 Agreed. LEE dies are cheap and work well 👍🇨🇦

[@HuntShootOffroad]

All the dies are similar. Get carbide dies for your straight wall cases if you have the money. The important thing is to clean your brass before you start, this will stop your dies getting scratched. RCBS shell holders have the tightest tolerances, I would recommend them.

[@TheRealCCSmith]

I've been looking for a case neck trimmer.... I would like to see some reviews and comparisons of those.

[@angryd5552]

What kind of witch craft was involved with this? I didn't see a single grain of powder get spilled

[@HuntShootOffroad]

That's because he hung it off the edge 😂

[@G56AG]

Very typical of the drum type powder measure, very inconsistent with a stick type powder like Varget, and your pistol test was flawed from 2 different directions, a charge around 3 grains would be a better test, and you need a better scale to check accuracy for pistol charges, is one charge 6.51 and the next 6.59 gr? On smaller charges that much could make a difference, so you need a better powder measure that goes to two decimal places for accurate weighing of pistol charges. In my experience using a Reffing Match Grade powder measure, the standard size drum doesn't measure pistol charges accurately and you have to buy a different metering assembly to accurately measure pistol charges. I've been reloading for a bit over 50 years, I have tried quite a few different things over the years. Started out with a Lee Loader, finally threw that junk out and bought a Lyman press which really started my reloading career.

[@dougblessin]

how about a series on barrel tuners and other types of muzzle devices?...

[@gotjuice7160]

Not very consistent for precision rifle.. a full 10'th of a grain depending on cartridge will make it almost impossible to get nice groups at 100m. And the charges thrown were min max spread of 4 tenths of a grain. Informercial ...

[@randytrudeau952]

For precision rifle I think many people use the powder measure to drop close to the charge weight and then trickle up to the exact weight. That's what I do. Would be nice to have one of those digital measures that drops the exact weight for you for but they are expensive.

[@HuntShootOffroad]

Most digital scales will only measure one tenth. For hunting I think this is an acceptable variance. If you want precision throw low trickle up.

[@mattthadd4663]

The lee measure is garbage. At least mine was.

[@viewingut]

Hope this one is good, the #55 wasn't in the 2021 Lyman book!

[@nathanguedalia5498]

Hi I like the ultimate reloader bench mentioned in this video, can you please make a video or send me the specs for it, thanks Nathan G

[@stetsonspurs4680]

Gavintoobe, Are you aware of any case activated powder drops that work well with this Lyman Brass Smith Powder Measure? I don't see one on Lyman's website. So i'm wondering if either the RCBS or Hornady models will function. Thanks in advance!

[@DLN-ix6vf]

the only difference is the length of the powder holder. all others are twice as long. I my Hornady dispenser when it is full and I adjust micrometer metering unit to the exact measure the loads are very accurate until the powder level in the powder holder drops below half way then I need to trickle. S I stop and refill holder to top and again accurate loads. Gravity is less when half full that's why the load weight changes so Lyman cut the powder holder in half. Just do that yourself or keep reloading the top when powder falls to halfway.

[@terryfyre6881]

How does this work with "Flake" powder?

[@TartanJack]

Am trying to decide between this and the Lee Deluxe Perfect Powder Measure for my rifle loading so this video was super helpful. I have booth Lee and Lyman products and all have worked exceptionally well for my needs while being great values. Wasn't too impressed by how often it cut the stick powder (I'm currently using IMR 4064 until my bargain closeout 4 pounds runs out) and the resulting inconsistent throws. Hmm. Tough call as the Lyman is actually a few dollars less. But as always thanks for the review.

[@ryridesmotox]

I use the lee for imr4064. I throw about half a grain low for my precision loading and trickle in the rest. The lee drums are dead on with ball powders, but as with any measure, stick and extruded powders can be tough for perfect consistency

[@dougmate2378]

have you done any reviews for the RCBS powder measure? can you do a show like you did with presses?

[@PyroRob69]

How does the accuracy compare to a Lyman #55 using the dropper?

[@jeffhitchings4079]

What’s the best way to reach out to u. Got some good ideas for u for videos.

[@nickjm37fordel1]

You were going to do a comparison of all the presses side by side. Was that done and I missed the video, or have you not done it yet ?

[@Ultimatereloader]

I'm working on it! Been talking about it in my weekly update videos...

[@nickjm37fordel1]

@@Ultimatereloader Sorry, I guess I missed it ! :-)

[@volcom84bait]

which one is better to buy for precision .. this type of set up or the automated digital powder charge?? thanks..

[@leviweaver1058]

I have an rcbs powder measure that is very nice and very consistent but I just picked up an rcbs chargemaster lite and love it. I use the chargemaster for my precise loads for my rifles and the quick powder measure for any plinking rifle or pistol. Depends on what you plan to load with it. Unless you need every charge weighed out for precision stuff then the powder measure like that Lyman or an rcbs is going to be faster.

[@volcom84bait]

@@leviweaver1058 thanks

[@HuntShootOffroad]

You can always throw low trickle up. The cost difference is huge. By going digital you can save time. But if your precision reloading your probably not in a rush.

[@volcom84bait]

@@HuntShootOffroad thanks

[@miniaturefarmer464]

Until you get a good coat of graphite from the powder on the internals, it will throw a little inconsistent.

[@joelopezjl28]

Any idea if there's a case activated powder thrower that will work for the brass Smith thrower? I ask only because I want to get a progress press and I really don't like the Lee throwers so I'm curious I got one and works great still breaking her in

[@justaregularguy3827]

whats the best scale electronic wise for the money for reloading for 6.5 Grendel or otherwise

[@pa6552]

will this work with the Hornady case activated linkage?

[@wReid-ts8bc]

I have the 8 slot brass smith turret press. What are your thoughts of having this powder measure or any powder measure mounted to a turret press. Being that thebturret press moves and the powder measure will be moving as well.

[@turbotrix19]

will hornady case activated linkage bolt to this?

[@a.k.4363]

Great video.

[@tompuckett9937]

Why didn’t you show how tedious it is to adjust the measure to receive the desired drop???? It takes me 10-15 minutes to get this thing to drop the correct powder weight. BUT, once you get what you want, this thing is spot on almost every single drop! Maybe one and no more than two drops out of 50 drops will be one tenth of a grain light. Using 2400 powder. With IMR 4198 it never more than two tenths light. But there is plenty of powder cutting going on. Almost every drop! Still it’s my favorite even over my old #55 measure???

[@kentoncampbell1957]

This channel is becoming a continuous infomercial...

[@ApathyGates]

Maybe so, but when looking for something to buy at least he's covering all versions/models/brands so you can see which one might suit your budget and style.

[@kelvynfurniel7272]

Hey Gavin what will you recommend as for automatic powder measure that best you think

[@tahampton25]

Im looking into buying this to replace my Lee PPM, the leaking is driving me insane. The video looks promising, does the Lyman leak at all? I want to stick with this style of measure strictly because of budget

[@bobbertee5945]

i have the same problem, i load alot of 223 with H335, that Lee PPM just leaks horribly with fine powder

[@tahampton25]

Exactly, H335 and W748 leak like hell. Since then I've fixed it, with a few stragglers here and there. To close the gap and minimize leakage, the screw on the crank plate needs to be tightened down, alot basically to the point where the lever is stiff and not easily moved. To fix that I got a tube of graphite powder lubricant, like $3 on Amazon, unscrew the plate all together and put the graphite on the high friction areas, so basically the entire area where the crank plate will fit back in. Screw it back on, tight. Work it back and forth for a bit and you'll notice the lever becoming real smooth. Throw a charge, should be good to go

[@bobbertee5945]

@@tahampton25 Thanks man i'll check that out....

[@davisprather3499]

I going to buy a this powder measure and stand. I have a Lee perfect powder measure it's ok for pistols but not for reloading rifles bullets!!

[@paulvenn4447]

Wish someone (Lyman or anyone) would make a black powder compatible measure that doesn't cost $200+ :(

[@tomaskey6844]

Why am I watching this when I have a brand new RCBS Charger Supreme at home waiting for me? LOL

[@jimbeck553]

You demonstrated nothing on how to setup the measure die.

[@texasbradley]

I hate my lee powder measure because it leaks like crazy, especially when using AA#9 or W296. Can anyone here that has used this model tell me if it leaks when you throw a charge? I will buy at this price point of it sure not leak. Much cheaper than the rcbs variant.

[@thesaint1517]

Really enjoyed your video on the powder measure and bracket that I just purchased. Now I feel more comfortable on how to use it and where to install it.

[@MrJeffreyTSanford]

Great video and wonderful product that is consistent. Did a great job with stick powder.

[@RONZiLLA702]

Ooooo. New gear.

[@Sanwizard1]

Seems like the Lee is more consistent

[@83ldamian]

Uwielbiam Cię pomagasz początkującym nawet takimi błachostkami

[@gregs5295]

Not really new anymore

[@harveygussow7913]

You do your own thing but I see it as to close to the edge. To |each his own.

[@levi5548]

6.5x47L

[@miniaturefarmer464]

Powder is too expensive to spill these days.

[@riccochet704]

mayonnaisurements ...

[@Demogorgo]

that's cool but i hope they paid you right

[@plop55]

It's MEH-SURE not MAY-SHORE.

[@jimbeck553]

The supplied instructions are horrible.

[@johnnysaechao6218]

Seems like a pretty accurate powder measure..

[@ssbrutal]

A big no no dont have any powder on the bench other than what is being used currently

[@Ultimatereloader]

Do what's safe for you. I keep the powder canister next to the powder measure it's being used in, and label the powder hopper with blue tape if there's any ambiguity.

[@ssbrutal]

@@Ultimatereloader good idea I am more thinking for beginners those of us that have been reloading understand the full dangers

[@duckslayer11000]

I never would have guessed people would be so mad at a review video they chose to click on 🤔

[@Ultimatereloader]

You said it perfectly :) Welcome to my life! :) :)

[@TheRealCCSmith]

Really!? Just don't watch it! Some people will gripe about anything.

[@lf_a8126]

I made the mistake and bought the Lyman dispenser based on the video... I wanted to replace my plastic Lee perfect powder dispenser. The Lyman is horrible!! I reloaded 100 243 rounds and I swear never got the same drop... the thing had a problem cutting the powder.... why would they design it so the hopper fits loosely to base but the lid is ridiculously tight. Thankfully I bought on amazon and I can exchange for a Hornady locknload dispenser. By the way my Lee powder dispenser throws charges almost perfectly. Sorry for the rant but based on this pathetic Lyman product I will never ever try any of their products ever!!!