Ultra-Pure Water for Coffee and Espresso?

[@mikemetz82]

You guys are crushing it! Love all the very high quality videos! Video and audio are always excellent. Need to order some more filters and a bag of crema wave. What’s the best way to catch it right off roast? Cheers!

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi Mike, Thanks for the comment. Gotta love the 🌊! Crema Wave used in this video was roasted 3/21/22. No guarantees, but if ordered today that's likely the roast date you'd receive. We find most coffees become consistent 2-3 weeks from roast date. Depending on demand it's roasted about once a month. Marc

[@michaelsmith6094]

I ordered the bwt pitcher for my machine based on your recommendation. Thanks!

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi Michael, You are welcome - it's the only thing I use for filling coffee machine reservoirs! Marc

[@ForeverInBetweenBand]

Heck, I use a BWT filter for just normal drinking since it's so delicious

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hey Forever, Me too! Marc

[@jivano]

I have been using BWT pitcher for drinking water for years, but I wouldn’t use it on my expensive machine. Chlorides are not taken out thru a carbon filter and eventually your machine will have to be descaled. I rather use distilled water and Third Wave Water. Or you could run distilled water thru the BWT Magnesium filter.

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi j, thanks for the comment. Depends on your local water supply but high chlorides (often in coastal locations) are not a problem for most. Be aware a BWT magnesium ion-exchange filter will not add minerals back to distilled water. BWT does have the Bestmin filter designed to remin water with low to no mineral content like distilled and RO:www.wholelattelove.com/products/bwt-bestmin-premium-m-filter-cartridge

[@j0.ZEF-Who]

cal-mag - MUST HAVE for home gardens... coffee is the best when gardening

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hey J, It sure is! Marc

[@MongooseReflexes]

Loved this, what a perfect topic to cover!

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Glad you enjoyed it! Marc

[@TomJones-tx7pb]

The best is softened water, put through an RO+ filtration system followed by a serious mineralizing container taking it up to 200ppm. It tastes great. RO at 2ppm is hard to achieve and extremely bad for your health unless remineralized before drinking. It can penetrate and burst cells in your mouth, causing what feels like you have burnt your mouth with hot water. Having lost my serious water treatment system in a fire, I recently bought a BWT Penguin from WLL, and can confirm it smooths out bitter tastes in espresso when using simply filtered water.

[@kzs12]

"It can pentrante and burst cells in your mouth" Omg what you write there 😂😂 i drink ro water for years and no problems.... Learn about water! Definition of water is that is without smell and taste.... If you have hard water it will be all but not good for health.

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hey Tom, Well I'm not a biologist but a little skeptical on the cell bursting. I do know that with exposure to CO2 in air RO water can become slightly acidic. Sorry you lost your system in a fire ☹️. Thanks for your patronage and sharing your flavor experience with the BWT Penguin. Marc

[@kzs12]

@@Wholelattelovepage BWT only remove hlorid and hard metal parts .. Magnesium and calicium is stll there, so with them you will have deposits in your machine.... You can only remove them with RO.

[@Wholelattelovepage]

@@kzs12 Hi, Yes the BWT products do leave minerals in the water but reduces to a level that's unlikely to result in scale when used as directed. The ion exchange process replaces some calcium with magnesium. Overall general hardness is lower after treatemnt and ratio of carbonate hardness making up general hardness is lower.

[@TomJones-tx7pb]

@@Wholelattelovepage My tap water is so soft that there would be no need to descale. After testing BWT water by steaming it in a steel jug and letting it sit for several hours, I can confirm that it drops a visible amount of scale and the coffee water heater will require descaling from the use of BWT treated water.

[@Microang]

Bring back the Whole Latte Love song! 😁

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi AP, Have not used it in years. Was a very polarizing song! Marc

[@Microang]

@@Wholelattelovepage exactly why it should come back hahaha

[@mlai117]

Hi Marc, thanks for all the helpful info. I’m planning to plumb my dual boilers and have a question about how to get the best quality of water for the machine. We current have a whole house water softener system and would it still make sense to install a BWT in-line water filter for the plumb line? Thank you!

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hey Mark, You are welcome for the info. Honestly it's hard to say. There's some variation in whole house softening systems. If you are happy with the flavor of the water from the system and the coffee it makes then the remaining concern is the calcium hardness. Whole house systems generally replace the calcium with sodium so scaling potential is reduced or eliminated. This type of softening can increase the sodium level of treated water. But, unless your source water was very hard >400ppm sodium increase is not high enough for concern. Softening systems do not reduce chlorination, chemicals or particulates on their own (the BWT inline filter does) but many whole house systems do include activated carbon and mechanical particle filtration for that. Hope that helps! Marc

[@mlai117]

​@@Wholelattelovepage Hi Marc, thanks for the prompt reply! And yes!! that helps a ton. Getting the water situation figured out has been tricky, let alone having a dedicated line for the espresso machine. So you are definitely helping us make the right decision with your experience. The water hardness in our area is around 152 ppm and the water softener we installed is from Puronics Hydronex igen B, which has a layer of filtration to reduce chlorine levels as well. Would you say BWT bestmax filter is a "nice" addition but probably not mandatory in my case? Again, thank you so much again to provide such help! ^^

[@sydr94]

How would it work with cold brew? Like real cold brew, not chilled by ice. Having no dissolved minerals, it could theoretically brew more. But in reality?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi, thanks for the question. I've never tried cold brew with mineral free water. My guess is it may over-extract undesirable flavors potentially resulting in more bitterness. Marc

[@JPC326]

Can you leave the pitcher on the counter and not in the fridge ?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Yes, you can leave the pitcher out.

[@vick7141]

Hey guys, looks like you guys had a whole latte fun doing this video. While we are on the topic of water. Does anyone have an opinion with using water from the refrigerator water (filtered) dispenser versus from the tap (hardwater area) ?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi Vic, We did have a whole latte fun! Hard to say a fridge filter is going to do it. Only way to know is to test the hardness of it's output. Likely a lot of variation in what those fridge filters do. Guessing most are just particle and carbon filtration with little to no reduction in hardness. Marc

[@vick7141]

@@Wholelattelovepage Thanks Marc, appreciate your input.

[@rjejames28]

How does the pitcher work since you dont have to test the water and make the appropriate filter chiloice like the inline filters.

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi r, The inline filters treat water much faster than the pitcher. With that, they use a bypass setting (determined by water testing) to adjust how much water goes thru ion-exchange to insure proper filtration. The pitcher system has a known flow rate thru the cartridge so it's designed with capability to properly exchange with a wide range of calcium content inputs.

[@notlessgrossman163]

How about using better coffee to get better coffee?

[@Kats072307]

I have been using since day one of my home espresso setup, the BWT Penguin and also an Oscar 90 water softener sitting inside of the espresso machine reservoir. This, because we called and asked for some numbers (was it Pha ? I am not sure) for the water from the tap in my area, and considered that both (BWT and Oscar) are necessary

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi K, Thanks for sharing. Your local water provider should be able to give you a bunch of water quality parameters. In the US, that information is available online as well. pH in most tap water runs about near 7 with anything 6.5 - 7.5 being okay for coffee and your equipment. Number to be most concerned about is TDS = Total Dissolved Solids which gives a good indication of water hardness/mineral level in your water. Unless your water is unusually hard with TDS >250ppm the BWT pitcher is likely all you need to use. Marc

[@alexballar]

I have an RO system with a reminilizer on it to alkaline the water. Does that work? I was planning on buying the Profitec 400 and just read about RO water ruining the boiler. Is this true?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi AB, Remineralizing should do the trick. But, not all remins are created equal. If yours uses calcium to remin then depending on concentration it could leave you with water which will cause scale. Scale is fine so long as you descale your machine as needed and the 400 being an HX boiler machine descaling is fairly easy and low risk. Pure RO water can cause corrosion of metals and terrible tasting coffee so do remin. I prefer remin which uses magnesium as the mineral. It's a good extractor and no corrosion. Marc

[@jonathancsuf7972]

Hi Marc, what are your thoughts on using Sparkletts water for Esspresso?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi Jonathan, So you want two main qualities in your water. First it needs the proper mineral level to do a good job of extracting the espresso. Second you want water that does not cause limescale deposits in your machine. You also want it free of chlorination - bottled water generally is. Only way to know if your water is good is to test total hardness and carbonate hardness. I have no test results for the brand of water you mention. Bottled water is all over the place in total hardness and carbonates. Last week I tested some Poland Spring brand bottled water and it was close to distilled water. It was lacking minerals and would need remineralization to support good flavor. Also tested a local store brand bottled water. It was high in minerals (hard) and would need filtration to prevent limescale formation. If you can test your brand or get test results from the manufacturer it's good for use in your machine if both total hardness and carbonate hardness are in a range of 3-6 degrees of German hardness. Published test results are often expressed in ppm. 1 degree of German hardness = 17.9ppm. In ppm your good to go if both test between 54-107ppm. Hope that helps! Marc

[@QMulative]

So the ultra pure water leeched flavours from the equipment instead of from the coffee? I wonder, if water pulls those flavours so aggressively, do you even need to heat the water to get flavour out of the coffee beans? What if you did cold brew in the kind of container you keep the ultra pure water in, so that the coffee is the only thing there for water to draw from?

[@kpurpose1078]

Purchased the ECM Synchronika from you all. I purchased the BWT-M in tank reservoir. What’s the best water to used in the reservoir with the BWT-M filter for best taste, distilled ,tap or filtered tap?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi K, Congrats on the your new machine - the Synchronika is a beauty! For water, do not used distilled. If your tap water is reasonable - average with no unusual characteristics you can use that straight in conjunction with the BWT Bestsave in-reservoir pad filter. It protects you from scale formation and removes chlorination. Just be sure to allow 12 hours of contact time between the filter and water before use. So refill your reservoir when done using the machine each day, let it sit overnight and your ready to go. Hope that helps and thanks for your patronage. Marc

[@kpurpose1078]

How about using the Third Wave Water “Espresso Blend” packets in distilled water in the reservoir of espresso machine? Is this safe for my machine? This would be without an in tank filter. The ingredients for the espresso blend are a little different than their classic blend. The espresso blend consists of Magnesium Sulfate, Calcium Citrate & Potassium Bicarnonate. Is this water fine for my double boiller?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi K, Thanks for the question. Unfortunately I do not know if that mix is fine for your espresso machine. Would need to test it for calcium level and other parameters to determine scaling potential. My gut says given that calcium is part of the mix it may cause scale but I cannot be certain. There are less costly make your own brew water options that use only magnesium to get the required mineral level. I show one recipe in this video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/n3msaJ15ZdiEkNE Marc

[@mborel]

On fully automatic machines like the Gaggia Magenta Prestige, is corrosion a serious threat? Where I live, the water is unbelievably hard, so I switched to using RO water purchased from my local store. I used tap water in my old Keurig and even with the filter in place it built up a lot of lime deposits all over the device.

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi Michael, Not a big risk of corrosion. The Magenta's thermoblock boiler is lined with stainless steel. It's one of the few metals unlikely to corrode due to RO. I'd be curious what the pH of the RO water is. I did not get into it in the video but RO can be slightly acidic. One thing you can do to improve flavor is mix RO with tap water. Say your tap water is very hard at 400ppm TDS. Mixing 25% tap with 75% RO gets you reasonable water of 100ppm. Marc

[@mborel]

@@Wholelattelovepage Thanks!

[@elchappo1320]

Nice salt and pepper beard. U look like a distinguished gentleman

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hey ec, Well thanks. Almost time to lose it for the summer months! Marc

[@JustinHEMI05]

My jura has its own filter. I'm not sure what it does except they claim you'll never have to descale your machine using it. You set your machine for the hardness of your water, which I think just adjusts the replacement frequency of the filter. Do you know if this filter is removing all the minerals? I assume Jura knows what they're doing with their machines and filters.

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi J, That's correct use the in-reservoir filter as directed in Jura machines and descaling is never required. And yes, setting your hardness plus number of beverages made determines replacement interval. The filter does not remove all the minerals - that would require a full RO treatment system in the filter.

[@JustinHEMI05]

@@Wholelattelovepage gotcha thank you.

[@ItsTheShiki]

Hello and please ignore the Warhammer name I have hah. As someone who doesn't have the ability to plub in their dual boiler machine, will the penguin suffice as the sole way I fill my reservoir? I bought both the pitcher and pads because I'm worried they won't be as effective as a straight line-in setup. Also, just out of curiosity, but what is your guy's opinion on those water kiosks in big-box stores that you can fill up those big blue 5 gallon jugs at?

[@AerisSkyla]

I bet your coffee is just as great as your videos :D

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi Aeris, We do take our coffee/espresso seriously! Marc

[@richardwalsh6100]

Hey guys, would you get similar results using distilled water? I'm looking to distill and adding 0.1g/L of potassium bicarbonate. As an aside, do you guys also rate decaf coffee? (could find anything on search) For when you want more coffee without overdosing on caffeine!!

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi Richard, Yes, it should be very similar. Sorry we have not done much with decaf coffee but I did have some espresso made with this decaf that was excellent: www.wholelattelove.com/collections/decaf-coffee-espresso/products/carraro-tazza-doro-decaf

[@keithlaurenz3774]

Mark, I just got the BWT pitcher. My water TDS out of the tap is 186 using the blue stick TDS electronic meter. Out of the pitcher im reading 150ish. I ran it through again with the same water and got 100. Can you tell me how much I can expect the calcium is being reduce with this pitcher to protect my machine because I believe the TDS is not enough to tell me if I’m protecting my machine from calcification.

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi KL, Thanks for the question. Since the BWT pitcher exchanges calcium for magnesium measuring TDS is not meaningful. You will see a TDS reduction but the magnesium still shows up in the TDS measurement. If you were to do total hardness and carbonate hardness tests you would see a reduction in carbonate hardness in water from the pitcher. It's the carbonate hardness which causes lime scale. Here's a video featuring a BWT expert with a deep dive into testing and various water issues: kzbin.info/www/bejne/bYWodKWMbpicfbM Marc

[@MariaGarcia-yn2ku]

Hey Marc, Is it safe to run RO Water remineralised with a product such as Perfect Coffee Water?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hey Maria, Yes it is safe. I cannot speak to the scaling potential of individual products but it is safe. Marc

[@rontech4804]

What are your BEST 2 favorite Super Automatic coffee/espresso machines? Thank you.

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi Ronald, Thganks for the question. We've been using the Gaggia Cadorna Prestige as the daily driver in the studio for >1 year now: www.wholelattelove.com/products/gaggia-cadorna-prestige My high-end choice is the Jura Z10. Excellent and beautiful machine which makes a true cold brew in minutes: www.wholelattelove.com/products/jura-z10-super-automatic-espresso-machine Marc

[@Flycam01]

Does running RO water through a BWT filter work?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi Flycam01, Thanks for the question. BWT does make an in-line filter for remineralizing RO water: www.wholelattelove.com/products/bwt-bestmin-premium-m-filter-cartridge Not sure of your application, but the Bestmin cartridge works only in a plumbed system. Their pitcher filter and other non-plumbed products are not intended for remineralizing RO. Marc

[@Elfin4]

Any signs of he Bezerra Aria Pid review?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi E, Nothing yet. Not sure when or if the Aria will be available in US. Marc

[@Elfin4]

@@Wholelattelovepage Well apparently it's available in Europe to order as it's now shown on their website, but the PID version not available from what I hear until later this year!!!!

[@Wholelattelovepage]

@@Elfin4 Thanks for the info! Currently working with a new exclusive custom BZ13. Has shot timer, comes with bottomless PF and a couple other customizations.

[@sleepyjoe8622]

What if I use Ice Mountain Spring water?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hey SJ, Unfortunately, no idea what the mineral level is. Waters labeled spring are all over the place.

[@sleepyjoe8622]

Alkalinity 160-320

[@Wholelattelovepage]

@@sleepyjoe8622 Alkalinity is only part of the story. 160-320ppm is a huge range and 4-8x the SCA recommendation for brew water. Here's a link to full water quality specs from the Specialty Coffee Association: www.scaa.org/?d=water-standards&page=resources Marc

[@chrisgregoryrph]

What about softened water? All my water is either soft or RO…

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi Chris, Softened water is okay. It works differently than the BWT products typically replacing scaling minerals with sodium and potassium. Marc

[@chrisgregoryrph]

@@Wholelattelovepage thanks, Marc…I tried it this morning and whether it’s my mind or a real thing, I do notice a smoother taste and no bitter taste at all!!! I am shook!!! I thought I was doing the right thing all along!!!

[@thebigdoghimself]

Is it safe to run CLR or vinager through the machine to clean it out occasionally?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi John, No! Do not use vinegar to descale a machine! It's a weak acid and leaves a horrible smell/taste. Scale can act like a sponge and soak it up making it very difficult to get rid of. For descaling use a citric acid based product or the product recommended by the manufacturer. Urnex products are what the pros use: www.wholelattelove.com/collections/urnex/products/urnex-liquid-dezcal Marc

[@thebigdoghimself]

@@Wholelattelovepage thank you.

[@Keksdose2k]

So much effort for creating an actual interesting video - but not knowing the difference between UWP and distilled water, bothers me so much. This shouldn’t affect me. Why am I disappointed?

[@mlai117]

Hi Marc, thanks for all the helpful info. I’m planning to plumb my dual boilers and have a question about how to get the best quality of water for the machine. We current have a whole house water softener system and would it still make sense to install a BWT in-line water filter for the plumb line? Thank you!

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hey Mark, You are welcome for the info. Honestly it's hard to say. There's some variation in whole house softening systems. If you are happy with the flavor of the water from the system and the coffee it makes then the remaining concern is the calcium hardness. Whole house systems generally replace the calcium with sodium so scaling potential is reduced or eliminated. This type of softening can increase the sodium level of treated water. But, unless your source water was very hard >400ppm sodium increase is not high enough for concern. Softening systems do not reduce chlorination, chemicals or particulates on their own (the BWT inline filter does) but many whole house systems do include activated carbon and mechanical particle filtration for that. Hope that helps! Marc