Operation MEETINGHOUSE-The Firebombing of Tokyo - Episode 416

[@haroldmendelson8397]

Gentlemen, thank you for presenting the firebombing of Tokyo in a complete, unbiased presentation of the March 9th, 1945 firebombing of Tokyo. As you know, 66 cities in Japan were also subjected to firebombing. The sad part of this was that it didn't change the Japanese government's opinion on surrendering. The Japanese military leadership wanted to continue through war until every Japanese citizen died. It took two atomic bombs and the Soviet Union's declaration of war on Japan to convince Hirihito's to demand Japan's surrender. There was no alternative choice on the part of the US military to end the war in the Pacific.

[@46bovine]

Some folks, on both sides, are/were nuts! Unfortunately.

[@briankorbelik2873]

Only Operation Downfall was a sure way to defeat Japan, if the atomic bombs and the Soviet invasion of Manchuria didn't compel Japan to surrender. A naval blockade was considered but no one knew how long that would take. Meanwhile it was estimated that 40,000 people a month were dying in Japanese occupied areas due to the Japanese.

[@JohnSmith-mb8hi]

Do not bullshit me man with your theory about "no alternative choice on the part of the US military"

[@maximilliancunningham6091]

Good, informed commentary.

[@Archibald_von_Munch]

When I think of the multiple atrocities that the Japanese military committed and the glee with which they were committed, I have a very difficult time mustering sympathy or sorrow concerning the military actions that the American leadership took during the end stages of WWII. As always, you two produced an epic review of the details of Operation Meetinghouse.

[@SeattlePioneer]

I agree. Compare the hand wringing over the "Rape of Nanking" with American fire bombing raids. I'd say they are comparable, and I have no regrets that the United States found this method to undermine the resolve of Japan to continue the war.

[@jpmerrick8886]

Wake island

[@therealuncleowen2588]

Agreed 100%. It was terrible but they had it coming.

[@kimj2570]

@@jpmerrick8886Heavy Cruiser Tone, March 1944.

[@kimj2570]

Chichijima Island, September 1944. Liver steak.

[@robertmoffitt1336]

When I was about 11/12 years old, I read a paperback book my Dad had called "A Torch to the Enemy" by Martin Cadin. Quite a frightening book. I used to wonder why people were opposed to nuclear weapons and thought Hiroshima and Nagasaki were so terrible, but no one ever mentioned what happened to Tokyo. The answer was, no one knew about it, and that was from a lack of knowledge, not because it was kept hidden. There are way too many people, then and today, who say "I never knew that". This is why your podcast is so tremendously important. If this episode doesn't sober you, nothing will.

[@giantgeoff]

Martin Caidin a very interesting man and a favorite author of mine

[@danielbackley9301]

People knew. I had a set of books on American history back in the early 70s that had a chronological table of events during WW2. The firebombing of Tokyo and the destruction of 16 square miles was included.

[@GrahamCStrouse]

It’s not like it was covered up. Nukes just get more attention.

[@MichaelWKeller]

@robertmoffitt1336 the fire bombing of Tokyo was not a subject hidden. The book, Air War by Edward Jablonski, told the story of these raids and showed some of the photos. I was reading this 2 volume set back in the 70s.

[@skyespye6053]

This was content that needed to be heard and needed to be explained without apologies and you two did it extremely well. What happens at night was terrible but necessary.

[@dw-fe2ww]

When you jump on the back of a tiger you don't get to decide how it eats you.😮

[@castlecircle7612]

I do want an episode on Hirohito. A no holds barred in depth; an "Unauthorized History of the Pacific War" look into Hirohito. I have a feeling it could be controversial today.

[@emilrydstrm3944]

Hirohito portrayed himself after the war as just a figure that had no say in the war. But my impression lately is that he had some kind of power. Especially about the Guadacanal campaign, telling the military leaders to get on with it and capture that island. And I'm pretty sure he was furious about loosing the Marianas.

[@jeffburrell7648]

I also would like to see that episode. IMO, the only reason that Hirohito was allowed to live and stay in power is that the Allies thought the Japanese surrender would have fallen apart if the Emperor had been tried and executed. The military and many of the civilian population would have taken up arms and the horror of operation Cornet would have descended on a very overmatched Allied occupation force. It has irked me for my adult life that Japan has not taken full responsibility for their atrocities and only grudgingly when they do. The use of nuclear weapons against them is used as a get out of jail free card to do that dodging. To this day there are Japanese who revere the war criminals that were punished for their crimes.

[@SCWillson]

Having read a biography of Hirohito a few years ago, he was fortunate to have not been tried for war crimes after the war. All of it was done with his knowledge and tacit if not explicit approval.

[@jayshaw63]

Emperor Hirohito only agreed to surrender because President Truman promised him that not only would he NOT stand trial as a war criminal, but that he'd get to keep his job as Emperor of Japan! You've got to hand it to the guy, he negotiated himself one heck of a retirement package. 🤥

[@edwardadams9358]

@@jayshaw63 What is the source for your information? It doesn't fit with my understanding. Hirohito is a complex figure. He was mostly a bystander to the operations of his Big Six, although he basked in the victories at the beginning of the Pacific War. His role in finally ending the bloodshed exonerates him to some degree. His actions to accept the Potsdam Declaration and actions to insure the military followed orders to accept occupation and disarm made the occupation remarkably peaceful.

[@gustaloni3107]

Horrible topic. But told with the usual professionalism and historical accuracy. Thank you.

[@terrylawrence7498]

I was born in 1965. As I grew up I got into reading. By 1975 I knew about Dresden, Hamburg and Tokyo. They didn't say incendiary bomb yet. But I knew there was something different. I learned from war vets the word napalm. A nasty customer for sure. And with LeMay in charge of a bunch of 29s. He did the right thing. He saved a lot of people by preventing a invasion. Love this show. Keep at it.

[@Georgi-Slavov-Ukraini]

Didn't they used magnesium and white phosphorus against the japanese?Napalm came around later,in the Vietnam war era, as far as i know?

[@dianeduffcroop8158]

​@@Georgi-Slavov-Ukrainino, it was Napalm for sure. They had used it on several islands prior to the firebombing of tokyo. Nasty little invention that one

[@graemecouch5010]

Isnt it terrible that L.A is feeling what this is like 80yrs later !

[@robertdendooven7258]

I see that Seth will be a guest on the WW2TV YT channel on Thursday, Oct. 3 at 2 PM EDT. Too bad I won't be able to watch it live due to prior commitments.

[@robertmoffitt1336]

Thanks for the heads up! I happen to be off that day! I'll be watching!

[@maccrage71]

Same. Something for after work.

[@davidk7324]

On my agenda.

[@dwaynelthompson]

I hope that’s true. I looked it up on World War II TV but I couldn’t find it. Can somebody tag a link that would be very interesting to watch

[@davidk7324]

@@dwaynelthompson Often times a link will be automatically blocked. Just search for "WW2TV Pacific Progression: Peleliu September 1944" and it should pop up for you. Oct 3 at 12:00 MT.

[@frankrosati6403]

A great, unbiased handling of a very politically charged event. Thank you for presenting the truth.

[@lorenhinger3180]

Excellent handling of this tough but vital topic. I understand how after the fact the moral impications can be raised so loudly, so thanks for keeping it all grounded by touching on how bad the alternative would have been. The suffering, as from all wars, was great on all sides. As a small example, my grand-uncle was a gunner's mate on a minesweeper at leyte gulf. A kamikazee claude fighter was shot down close aboard and my uncle caught a 3 inch square piece of aluminum debris from the claude in his abdomen. He suffered from that wound his whole life having many surgeries for reoccuring problems from it until his passing in 1997. The best way to limit the suffering is to end the conflict quickly,

[@wkbigfish]

A truthful & open discussion of a difficult topic. Presented with an unbiased informative honesty we seem to see much less of these days. The mental picture you created of what the Japanese people endured was chilling. And the weight of Lemay’s decision on him was enormous. Another great thought provoking episode. Thanks

[@Fremen2]

Well said....

[@roberthawley40]

Gentlemen, congratulations on this continuing excellent podcast, which I continue to follow in both audio and video formats, not only once, but over and over again. Your list of Pacific War books has become the foundation of a growing Pacific War library. Keep up the good work!

[@martinjohnson5498]

About 10 days later, Hitohito went for a drive around Tokyo and his subjects were silent, some even turning their backs to him. And he and his government did not for a second consider surrender. This is important in the context of deciding to use atomic weapons a few months later.

[@mlehky]

You are applying a western meaning to turning one back. They all turned their back. That was considered a sign of respect as that he was concidered a living god and it was disrespectful to look at him.

[@pac9764]

@@mlehkyyou are right. I was about to correct this. But you did. Thanks !

[@ClancyWoodard-yw6tg]

Thanks for talking about this because I've been trying to find something that talks about the fire bombing campaign on Japan for a long time

[@garymackey850]

Black Snow by James Scott is an excellent source....//

[@carrabellefl]

Thanks!

[@Recbrospodcast]

Thank you for talking about this. Many people in the comments were talking about how Japan had it coming but the bombing killed mostly CIVILANS! My grandma was a very little when she got firebombed and was permanently injured from this bombing. She also lost her sisters who were 12 AND 13!!!! They did not deserve to die for their messed up government.

[@jonbalogh2077]

I'm quite certain that many listeners agree with what you have stated as do I. The fact that a handful of twisted tyrannical people,I'm referring to the military leadership of the Japanese government at that time could lead an entire nation down the path of such death and destruction not only to their own people also those in China and other territories in the name of imperial conquest is. And always will be a tragity of biblical proportion. I don't think anyone except those who lived through such times can even begin to fathom the scope of such a thing thank you for sharing your very personal perspective on this matter

[@Cosmic.G1234]

Has your government apologised to you

[@scottgiles7546]

Decades ago I read a book on Japan's War from 1931 to 1945. I was reading a description of absolute horror after a raid, fine dust falling from a dark sky unrecognizable bodies jammed in a river, and was shocked to realize it was not from Hiroshima or Nagasaki but the fire bombing of Tokyo. It was worse, far worse. The biggest thing about the Nuke drops was it was one plane, not a thousand.

[@richardmardis2492]

Best part of the week! Says a lot about my life🤣

[@davidbrian2570]

Yes, now that I just went under Quadriceps tendon rupture surgery, I value these shows even more!

[@richardmardis2492]

@@davidbrian2570 Man, I hope your recovery is swift 👍

[@markmonce5485]

Hirohito was absolutely culpable of the decisions that led to this and other consequences of Japanese choices. This goes back to the decision to go to war in the first place and the foot-dragging during the war's final months and days. He was fully behind Ketsu-Go until Hiroshima and Nagasaki suggested (to him, based on his immediate postwar comments) that likely the US didn't need to invade Japan, making Ketsu-Go moot. The fact that Hirohito was allowed to retain his ceremonial postwar position with the consent of the US (which was also a pragmatic decision by the US government) largely influenced the phenomenon of the "Emperor as a Figurehead" myth to take hold.

[@tachikaze222]

does it matter?

[@SeattlePioneer]

​No. Taking advantage of the Emperor's prestige was one of the smartest decisions of the war by the United States.

[@MartinChadwick-xe7gh]

The original Nanking massacre was triggered by a subordinate royal commander who the overall commander was scared to keep in line. So, the Emperor and his family were worse than the war party.

[@WoodyXRay]

As a young airman in the early 80’s I had the honor of caring for General LeMay as my patient.

[@denniswiemer72]

I really enjoyed this episode. Not because of the brutality, but your willingness to go there for the whole ugly truth of war. Not glamorizing, that those who have not experienced it should sit in the stands, cheering it on, but instead showing it for all its pain and suffering that we should make it rare.

[@tachikaze222]

to the extent the USAAF crew did this with enthusiasm and not measured regret they could be considered monsters I guess. but it's tough to judge people out of their historical context . . . Japanese included! (everybody naturally thinks they're the Good Guys)

[@carstenwagner3355]

An episode about Japanese inner workings, the relationship between the Army and Navy and its influence on the war would be interesting.

[@SeattlePioneer]

Been done many times. But always room for one more quality history.

[@vettim89]

To the modern ear I am sure this episode sounds horrifying. To appreciate this one really has to transform one's mind to the realities of the situation in 1945. Bear in mind high end estimates are that 20 million Chinese died either directly or indirectly to the Japanese war of aggression in their country. In only one incident: after the Japanese discovered that most of the Doolittle raiders escaped with the aid of the Chinese locals they murdered 250,000 civilians in reprisal.

[@tachikaze222]

plus the USAAF had just obliterated Germany (and much of northern France for that matter) so they were just doing business from the Marianas, and business was good.

[@edwardadams9358]

The American blockade was effective due to Japan's inability to import food. They were importing food from the occupied territories. One has to make the assumption that the residents there didn't need the food themselves.

[@uberduberdave]

I read Robert L Scott Jr's book "The Day I Owned the Sky" and got to know the man personally. In his 80s he lived a childhood dream and walked the Great Wall from end to end. He said was stopped from time to time by minor Chinese officials who questioned what was up to, then recognized him from his Flying Tiger days. They would often invite him into their homes for tea. Scott reported that, 40 some years later, they still hated the Japanese...

[@GrahamCStrouse]

@@uberduberdaveJapan, China & Korea have a relationship going back centuries. They ain’t chums.

[@uberduberdave]

@@GrahamCStrouse To quote the character Lil'Abner from the movie "Battleground," "that's fer sure, that's fer danged sure!"

[@maryamundsen6993]

My father was a 22 year old flight engineer based in Saipan and participated in the first November raid as well as operation meeting house. He passed away long ago, so I cannot ask him any questions about the firestorm. But his job was to keep that unreliable aircraft aloft so that he and his fellow airmen could come back alive from a war they certainly did not start. These young men had no voice in military policy. They were ordered on what looked like a suicide mission, flying over Tokyo at 5000 feet without defensive weapons, and they did it. The results probably tormented a lot of these guys for the rest of their lives, a tragic outcome for their bravery.

[@kilcar]

Sidebar: I have personal knowledge the the tune " Smoke gets in your eyes" was a favorite tune of an original raider of Tokyo. Lt. Col Dean Davenport, copilot of the Ruptured Duck B-25 that flew off the USS Hornet, captained by his exec Capt Ted Lawson was a guest at my parents home in Portland Oregon just before his deployment in the war. He was a proficient piano player and left the sheet music for this popular song on the piano with his signature on it. I returned the sheet music to his daughter in 1999. She very graciously sent me a thank you note on his personal stationery.

[@MrFrikkenfrakken]

The challenge is not viewing these events with modern mores and sensibilities but with the outlook of the US populace in 1945. Pearl Harbor was well known, the brutal fighting the Marines and Army encountered in 42,43, 44 and Okinawa was just on the horizon. The reports of the Bataan march were made public January 1944 and the US populace was enraged. I suspect most had no issue how the war was prosecuted if it meant ending it sooner than later (family members alive at the time corroborate this sentiment.)

[@MadLudwig]

I couldn't agree more. My family members recounted their WWII experiences and the general sentiment of our population back then was to destroy the enemy without hesitation. If our American education system was not so ideologically biased, we would have decisively won the Vietnam War and obliterated the Taliban as well. Our school system has brainwashed generations into believing that winning at war and protecting American interests is evil and should be vastly restricted. No war has EVER been successfully prosecuted by "Winning hearts and Minds. "

[@jollyjohnthepirate3168]

War is horrific. There's no way to reform it. =William Tecumseh Sherman

[@OMMgreenshirt]

Good morning gentlemen. I hope you both get feeling better. Congratulations to Bill's mother having her birthday.

[@c7042-u5g]

The brutality that the Japanese military inflicted upon conquered territories' civilians, especially the Chinese, and allied prisoner of wars..... I won't complete this statement. My father, a veteran of the New Guinea campaign suffered for over 15 years because of what happened to him until he could pretend he was alright.

[@jgfina]

"It is well that war is so terrible or we should grow too fond of it" Robert E Lee

[@Chevelle602]

Politicians and people need to be REMINDED ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS IN WAR. Everyone needs this reminder even those of us who have seen it.

[@knutdergroe9757]

TRUTH !!!

[@benjaminfrazier5419]

Real facts spoken…..

[@RB-bd5tz]

They know. That's why they don't send their own kids to war.

[@McFFMICP]

Great job--as usual! The details, as horrific as they may be, are important. I had heard/read of these fire-bombings but did not realize the horror that they presented to the Japanese civilians. Hard as it must have been for you guys to go down this 'rabbit hole', THANK YOU! The details are important to the big picture. Keep up the good work! Sincerely, a grateful fan.

[@tachikaze222]

To understand August you have to understand November - March, yes.

[@ph89787]

I should have bought this last week. But have you gents seen Grave of the Fireflies? It's about two children who lived through the firebombings.

[@BillLeavens]

I have read the very few books on the subject of March 10, 1945. Seth and Bill have done a tremendous job in making that horrific night real. Their style of presenting facts with anecdotes made the Tokyo firestorm much more terribly vivid than the printed word ever could. The Tokyo firestorm was a most graphic illustration that war truly is hell. Well done, gentlemen. I can only wish that you never had to put this episode together.

[@dave3156]

Tough one to watch but typical great quality rendition from you guys. War is terrible all the way around but I sure didn't want my Dad having to invade the home islands. Thanks Seth and Bill--hope you guys feel better soon. Looking forward to seeing you later this week on WW2TV Seth! Thanks to you both!

[@tachikaze222]

grandfather somehow survived Peleliu and Okinawa in the 7th Marines, alongside Sledge in the 5th. He was slated for Coronet but was sent to disarm / monitor the Japanese troops in China instead.

[@billboy0]

The refusal to acknowledge the difference between military decisions and civilians, regardless of what country that claims them, never ceases to amaze me. Bill and Seth, thank you for taking the time to create this podcast.

[@BernardMann-nf1ks]

Appreciate my brothers. Thank you hope captain toti home still safe

[@JamesBartley]

General Curtis LeMay was one of the greatest combat commanders ever bar none. He had to overcome the deficiencies of the B-29. He had to deal with the cloud cover over the Empire and the Jet Stream. Hap Arnold was breathing down his neck to get results especially after the dismal performance of Hansell. LeMay did what he had to do to shorten the war. I'm tired of all the LeMay bashing that goes on. LeMay's innovations became standard in the 8th Air Force. He saved the Berliners from Starvation. He turned SAC into the most proficient weapon in existence and it could be argued that with LeMay as Chief of Staff of the Air Force and his protege General Thomas Power running SAC and the nuclear armed bombers on airborne alert, the Soviets were compelled to back off. Nuclear Annihilation wasn't worth saving Castro's regime. Another great podcast. This is the best podcast devoted to the Pacific War by far.

[@perfectlycontent64]

Thank you for presenting the facts behind such a horrific event. I wish more people would spend time learning how terrible war really is.

[@おだいふく-x6t]

空襲で降ってきた焼夷弾の鉄筒で包丁を作った人物がいて、大量に投下されてくる焼夷弾でさえ品質の良い鉄を使ってる事に驚いて、こんな質の良い鉄を大量に使うアメリカとそもそも戦争をおこなって勝てるわけないよなと心底思ったそうです。　ちなみに焼夷弾で作った包丁は良質の鉄が使われてたせいか非常に高品質のものができたそうですよ。

[@carstenschroder7054]

Stories like yours show what people can suffer trough and still go on. History is important. Actually to have Knowledge of History AND learn something from that is important! This Channel does important work. Vielen lieben Dank aus Deutschland.👋

[@おだいふく-x6t]

@@carstenschroder7054ご返信ありがとうございます。 歴史は色々な側面から見る事で、よりリアルな真実に近づけるのかもしれません。小さな逸話の集積が結果的に大きな歴史的出来事の意義をあぶり出してくれるのかもしれないと撲は思います。

[@seattleboy571]

I can't say enough about how great this series is. Fortunately I have Tuesdays off. Thank you for all the hard work^^

[@misterbaker9728]

Much love and respect from Cleveland. I always enjoy this with a smoke or 2 if I don’t have to work.

[@mrthreedaysgrace100]

Hope you guys were both kept safe during the hurricane, as well as your family.

[@lwilde]

Several years ago, I had the pleasure of speaking with a former B-29 crew member. I asked him what he remembered most about this Tokyo fire raid. His first words were, "...the smell." I'd never thought about that. He said it made them ill.

[@markpaul-ym5wg]

General Lemay talks about these fire bombings on the series called WORLD AT WAR.He said by July 45,they had run out of targets to bomb.Thanks guys for this informative video.

[@donaldkepple4927]

I have that series and I do remember lemay saying that

[@markpaul-ym5wg]

@@donaldkepple4927 Thank you for that kind reply.

[@KennanKlein]

I knew of the firebombing but had no idea of its intensity and true devastation wow!

[@daverobinson6110]

It’s always been over shadowed by the mushroom clouds, drowned out by the nukes. And this was way way worse…

[@tachikaze222]

the USAF did aerial surveys of Toyko in the late 40s, the destruction still visible years later is stunning

[@briankorbelik2873]

Yes, thank you gentlemen for this video of a very major operation of WW2. I'm in my late '60's now and I learned quite a lot from a family friend who had been a Colonel in the USAAF flying B-29's during the war. He participated in the Tokyo fire raid and many other B-29 raids against Japan. Beginning when the B-29's were based in China and then for the rest of the war flying out of the Marianas. He spoke of the fire raids and remembered the smell of burning flesh that he could smell from the cockpit of his aircraft. After the war he lived with his sister for a while, the sister was my mom's friend who she had met working for North American Aviation during the war, in the Pasadena, CA sub-assembly plant. His sister Peggy told my mom of how he would have nightmares about the raids and he yelled in his sleep, mostly "talking" to his crew. As a side note an uncle was an aircraft mechanic for land based Naval aircraft. He served in CASU 44, (Carrier Aircraft Service Unit 44.) My uncle was on Tinian when the Enola Gay and Bock's Car dropped the atomic bombs. Bock's Car resides now in the US Air Force museum in Dayton, Ohio. When visiting my friend who had moved to Dayton, OH, we went to the museum and despite signs that said "Please Do Not Touch", I had to touch Bock's Car, I'm a WW2 history buff and just *had* to touch her. It was a strong feeling for history, and I just had to do it. Bock's Car was a link to me to history, and I couldn't help myself.

[@chuckhillier4153]

Uncommon value is a common virtue of your podcast.

[@nissenilsson5955]

Thank you guys for the real story. No matter how grim history is, it should be told and learnt from no matter what.

[@46bovine]

Another great video, thank you and thank you for how you treated the principals on both sides. Good job.

[@tim2024-df5fu]

The use of HE bombs and fire bombs was found to be counter productive. The HE made fire breaks and prevented the spread of fire so they ended up going all firebombs vs a mixed load out.

[@marting1056]

In Europe big Blockbuster HE were used to lift the roofs and to destroy the window, to open a way for the small firebombs and allow more oxygen to them. smaller HE bombs were used to detroy waterpipes in the streets and to force the firefighters to keep their head down. time fuzed bombs were dropped to hinder firefighting and clearing for the hours and days to come. so a very much more comlicated process there.

[@alganhar1]

Its a case of an Incendiary only bomb load worked very well in those Japanese cities, but would NOT have worked so well in European cities because of the significantly different construction. Its a really good example actually of how differing construction methods can lead to a very different weapons selection to engage the target in order to achieve the same result.

[@billenright2788]

love him or hate him LeMay was a true 'war god'. he realized hi-altitude wasn't doable so he burned it down. war sucks, deal with it. killer show as usual.

[@ganndeber1621]

Another well presented and informative video, nice one.

[@bruceferguson6637]

Years ago I was thumbing through an issue of Life magazine, likely a 1944 or 45 copy. I remember a story, with photos, of the Army Air Force using incendiary bats. The live bats had some sort of igniter attached to them. They were placed in a large cylinder sort of egg-crate fashion, and would be dropped over a target. The cylinder would open on the way down, freeing the bats. The idea was that the bats would fly under the eves of buildings and the igniters would go off. I don’t recall if this was an experiment or an actual technique, but I definitely remember the story.

[@GrahamCStrouse]

The bat bomb was a very real thing & Adam West had nothing to do with it. It would have worked, but not as well as nuclear fission…

[@CutGlassMan-CTI]

Leaders are eating and sleeping well..they are distanced from the suffering of the people.

[@rickpelini9984]

You guys continue to deliver incredible content. This is and has been my favorite podcast for a long time now. It’s a very unique format in which it’s really just a few guys sitting around talking. Far different from the documentaries that populate the airwaves. This episode should be mandatory viewing in high school history classes. Most people just think that we dropped the atomic bomb and that was it. Good work guys. Bill mentioned that you should do an episode on Hirohito. I agree! Hopefully this is in the plans. One final plea…I know you’ve already said you weren’t planning on doing a series on the ETO but please reconsider! That would be so awesome and there are so many personalities to work with!

[@brucewilliams1892]

Winston Churchill wrote (about this time or perhaps later), that the Japanese civilian defence force* were being equipped with bamboo spears. One could imagine the carnage if they charged into gunfire. *He referred or compared it to the Home Guard which Brits will recognise. Thank you both for your well-researched and well-presented episode and your endeavour to be objective over the suffering. When London was bombed the underground railway stations were used as shelters. I recall seeing blast door long ago, I doubt they survive. Though they may remain as flood defences?

[@ppumpkin3282]

B-29 flying upside down from the updraft? How did the plane handle that? I didn't hear much about the anti-aircraft fire and how many planes survived the bombing.

[@williamj9413]

It wasnt “flying” upside down, it was struck by the sudden updraft of heat rising and the violent turbulence flipped them upside down. And im sure when it hit them at nighttime when they could only see the flaming city, the discombobulating impact and consequent flipping upside down, resulted in them going down pretty fast, they were low altitude bombing too, so not that much time to gain your bearings and correct yourself in the darkness. Maybe some survived, but i find that highly unlikely unless proven wrong. Most accounts are most likely from witnesses in other bombers who didnt flip when struck with the rising heat.

[@RB-bd5tz]

I agree with @williamj9413. Those big planes weren't designed for extreme rolling aerobatics even under the best of conditions. I'd be surprised if any of the inverted bombers were able to right themselves. Edit: Unless the fire flipped them back over.

[@StevenElerding]

Hello Captain Toti. General LeMay had Bell's Palsy which involves the nerve that moves the facial muscles. The cause is not known for sure. In the general's case, one corner of his mouth drooped; hence, the cigar to mask the defect. Hansen's Disease, aka Leprosy, is a chronic bacterial infection which has been around for thousands of years, although it is much less aggressive than in biblical times. Please keep up the great work. Steve Elerding MD Prosser, WA

[@kilcar]

Great episode, as always.

[@maximillianvermontsuperbik2624]

Absolutely outstanding. Thank you gentlemen.

[@scotttaylor1472]

The firebombing of Japan was very well presented and unbiased. It was difficult to hear but it needed to be heard. Seth and Bill handled the telling very well.

[@73Trident]

Seth and Bill once again an excellent episode. In depth and on point. While the loss of civilian life was huge and horrible, the Japanese were paying for their terrible treatment of other countries since 1931. As bad as it was the war had to end before the Japanese people became extinct. Just my two cents.

[@RonJohn63]

"War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it." "The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over."

[@RadianIndustries]

Two quotes from General Curtis LeMay in relation to this event that have always stuck with me: "There are no innocent civilians. It is their government and you are fighting a people, you are not trying to fight an armed force anymore. So it doesn’t bother me so much to be killing the so-called innocent bystanders." "If we lost the war, we'd all have been prosecuted as war criminals." Fantastic discussion as always. Thanks!

[@EricScott-jr8wl]

Thank you guys, another outstanding video...

[@Merlinemryys]

My father was in the 869th on Saipan from the beginning of the B-29 effort. He was an AC and flew 40 missions, 35 missions over Japan. A[]3 was his assigned plane.

[@Digmen1]

Bill I hope can get over your sore throat problems

[@jimmythomas611]

I guess i never realized okinawa was after these raids,crazy to think how they didnt see they were beat..

[@charliegiammarco5178]

THIS was a tough one. War brings out the calculus and the application of it leads to results like this

[@jannarkiewicz633]

92 years Bill, Congrats to your mom.

[@billechols7136]

Great show gentlemen.

[@tachikaze222]

whether the B-29 area bombing raids were right or wrong is between we Americans and the Japanese. There's a LOT of necessary context 1937 - 1944 that needs to be weighed. Tokyo was probably going to look like Berlin in 1945, the only question is how we got there and how many millions more died until the Japanese government surrendered to our terms as expressed in the Atlantic Charter and later in the Potsdam Declaration.

[@rebelrobjackson2253]

Fine line between patriot and terrorist. Just depends which team you are on. The Germans defending their homeland, Vietnamese defending their homeland, Afghanis defending their homeland, Palestinians...

[@mhsvz6735]

Unpleasant, but the truth needs to revealed. Thank you, gentlemen.

[@nkgoodal]

Tough episode. Great treatment of a difficult subject.

[@lindabrashear57]

An excellently presented episode, as per your usual standard. Thank you for an unflinching presentation of a horrific topic. I agree with your assessment on the ethics of this--it was, by any rational accounting, a hideously inhumane, cruel, and damnable action, eclipsed only by (a) the willingness of the Japanese government to let their people suffer when they knew they didn't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning and (b) what would have happened if it had not been done. Invasion of the Japanese home islands would have made this slaughter look insignificant--like comparing the costs of the Boston Massacre to Antietam. The events of the liberation of Manila, the battles on Iwo Jima and Okinawa, and the adoption of kamikazi attacks as a pre-planned and deliberate tactic make that very clear. By its very nature, war makes monsters of people--when you're put into a situation where you see others only as an enemy to be killed before they kill you and yours, you just aren't able to hold on to decency, especially when modern technology allows people to kill at such a distance that they no longer have to look someone in the eye as they kill them. We can only hope that people can regain humanity and compassion when it's over. The second best way for that to happen is to end it as soon as possible (the best way is to learn from history and avoid war in the first place, and I pray your podcasts contribute to people learning that very lesson). Sending much gratitude and admiration from Northeast Ohio!

[@tachikaze222]

>they knew they didn't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning well their strategy was to wait for the invasion and take 10:1 casualties. It worked for the NVA 25 years later . . .

[@danielbackley9301]

@@tachikaze222 Big difference the NVA didn't launch a sneak attack and kill 2900 Americans on AMERICAN SOIL!

[@mrjones6118]

That video taken of the city the morning after is one of the most terrifying things ever recorded.

[@UnauthorizedHistoryPacificWar]

@@mrjones6118 it was about six months after.

[@mrjones6118]

Oh, wow. That makes it a little worse somehow. And that makes sense since.there were no fires burning in the video. And you can even see a car or two driving around in the aftermath. I couldn't even imagine...

[@therealniksongs]

When I was still in high school in the late 1960s, I discovered a book called "A Torch To The Enemy" by Martin Caidin. It tells the story of the firebombing raids in great detail, including horrifying pictures of the destruction and the charred bodies. I remember being shocked at how much the results resembled similar photographs from Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I realized that the incendiary raids were wiping out Japanese cities just as effectively as the nuclear attacks would later. It forever affected my attitude toward the atomic bomb attacks. The idea that using the nukes was somehow "more evil" or less moral than what we were already doing was obviously absurd. I realized that it made little difference whether your city was wiped out by hundreds of B-29s or just one. You were just as dead. Japan would not surrender until they reached the point when they could not NOT surrender. The atomic bombs were used to save American lives. It is an incidental fact but no less true that they ultimately saved even more Japanese lives than American ones.

[@vernmeyerotto255]

Other factors that LeMay considered when switching to low-level night tactics. First, the IJN and IJA did not coordinate their fighter arms, antiaircraft defenses and early warning radars. Each service acted independently, and did not communicate with each other, leading to a disjointed response to raids. The Japanese did not possess a crediditable night-fighter force, even if they did respond to the Meeting House raid. This also informed the decision to leave the bulk of the B29s defensive machine guns behind. Very little of the Japanese antiaircraft artillery was radar guided, and what was defended targets the 21st Bomber Command had repeatedly targeted in high altitude daylight raids. LeMay also used his relationship with Mao he'd developed while commanding the 20th Bomber Command in China to obtain timely weather data for the raid.

[@LooneyTunes4]

Really like your intro music

[@davidbrian2570]

Good morning from SC!

[@Mike-sh2dg]

I had no idea…..thanks for another informative but grim episode.

[@riftraft2015]

Another interesting show. Well done guys. 🇺🇸 SALUTE 🇺🇸

[@russlong5953]

I have read quite a lot about WWII, this was evil, but a necessary evil. Peleliu, Iwo and Okinawa had taught us that the invasion of Japan was going to be horrible for both sides. There were far more 'divisions' in Kyushu than US planners estimated in Operation Olympic, it would have been a bloodbath with millions of casualties. I can say fairly confidently that I am only alive today because of the B-29s and the Atomic Bombs as my father was in Sacramento training for first wave....

[@chadrowe8452]

I love Curtis Lemay. In Europe he led the schweinfurt raid,even though i cant spell it, even though he didn't have to. Men were chickening out and claiming engine problems etc. Some men even landed in Switzerland to be interned for the war. So to raise morale and prove he wouldn't send them where he wouldn't go he led on one of the toughest targets in ETO.

[@allanpeterson539]

For a historical reference of a naturally occurring Firestorm you might want to examine and compare the fire storm that hit Peshtigo Wisconsin in about 1870 the same year as the Chicago fire.

[@danielbackley9301]

Both happened at the same time it's just that Chicago is a big city and Peshtigo isn't. Two facts not commonly known even here in Chicago: more people died at Peshtigo than Chicago since the fire burned a larger area. That Chicago has a street located just to the west of Navy pier named Peshtigo Court.

[@RaysLaughsAndLyrics]

Am I alone in Bill Toti's striking speech and mannerisms having a close resemblance to Billy Bob Thorton?

[@louanderson1264]

Hard topic which you both handled well.

[@johnmarlin4661]

When the Capt talked about the geek I knew immediately who it was LOL. Im a Vet from the Naval Air onboard Yankee Station 1966-67 and WHY he didnt mine Haiphong harbor in 67 to end that war is a puzzle for historians to write about some years to come !

[@tachikaze222]

the lesson we took from Korea was that the other side gets a move too

[@Perfusionist01]

A very powerful episode! The KZbin channel "WWII US Bombers" has presented all the technical details of the US incendiary weapons. Many who hear about this don't understand that the "Big 6" headed up a power structure in Japan that really were accepting the extermination of the whole Japanese culture to avoid surrender. Deeply sad, but true.

[@tachikaze222]

sunk cost fallacy, yes

[@Tyrantthedestructor]

These videos should be mandatory viewing for everyone.THANK YOU

[@Titus-as-the-Roman]

For those that may be surprised, Gen. Curtis LeMay was actually a pretty decent Human apart from his Job, as long as you did your job he was good, that brash exterior hides a highly sly & skilled mind. I liked Gen. LeMay, of course he went on to be the man that really built our strategic fleet we have today. I am completely embarrassed now knowing how big an A$$-Wipe Charles Lindbergh was, I knew he had NAZI type sympathies but not that he went that far, I thank you fellows for that, otherwise I still would not know the truth.

[@kimj2570]

LeMay is also partly responsible for US Armed Forces using today AR family rifles. He personally authorized USAF to buy 10 thousand of them for USAF security forces of airbases and missile silos. That was first adoption of weapon family within USA.

[@davidtrindle6473]

He was horribly racist, and was chosen by George Wallace to run for vice president.

[@Jon.A.Scholt]

@Titus-as-the-Roman Such a great guy he decided to run as VP for a notorious segregationist!

[@Titus-as-the-Roman]

@@Jon.A.Scholt we all have our not so cherry side, you name me any person & you could find a $hitty Day

[@craiga2002]

Lindberg was also a bigamist, having a second woman and child in Switzerland.

[@dianeduffcroop8158]

War is truly hell, but this is the war that Japan bought for themselves.

[@SuperNetSpyder]

Thank you for another marvelous story.

[@verysurvival]

I was looking for a Pod to cheer me up. This was very depressing

[@smoofbrain]

Lmao "Ah yes, 'the firebo-[censored] of Tokyo', the most uplifting of topics--that'll brighten up my day, I'm sure!" Then again, these gentlemen (+ guests) can most certainly be a hoot to listen to. Anyway, I'm sorry, I hope things'll get better for ya soon!

[@jfredq]

My dad had to brief McNamara during the early years of Vietnam. My dad rarely spoke ill of people, but he really had a dislike for McNamara. He said that McNamara was possibly the most arrogant individual who had ever lived.

[@MrSpirit99]

When something bad went down in the mid 20th century, and you bet that McNamara had something to do with it, you always win that bet.

[@davidtrindle6473]

McNamara led the introduction of the Ford Edsel (the ugliest and worst performing of all other Ford models before & since). It was immediately withdrawn from the market with people wondering “what kind of an idiot would even design a car that badly?”--He was fired and then put in charge of managing the Vietnam war by Johnson!!”

[@craiga2002]

@@davidtrindle6473 Stumbling upward...

[@cragnamorra]

The bit at the end regarding the Emperor is indeed critical, not just regarding this topic or the final stages of the war, but the entirety of the Pacific War and the two decades preceding it. I really do hope you guys closely treat that particular aspect of Hirohito's involvement throughout this entire story. Could really be three episodes to do adequate justice: a) "pre-war" from the mid-1920s onward, focusing on Manchuria and China, b) the decision to go to war, including Pearl Harbor and the 1941-42 offensives, and c) Japanese decision-making at the end of the war. In the early 1970s, there was a rather controversial book titled "Japan's Imperial Conspiracy", by David Bergamini. To be fair, this book does have some major problems; Bergamini was not a professional historian, and it showed here. I'm deeply skeptical of many of the claimed details and events in it. BUT, Bergamini's basic argument that the Emperor was not only a substantial participant, but even a primary driver, in Japan's various military aggressions, I've always perceived to make more basic sense than the rather contrived "Hirohito was a disengaged puppet" narrative which seems much more common in the "conventional" historiography.

[@tagfu2226]

At Iwo Jima there were more total American casualties than Japanese casualties. But you have to realize almost all the Japanese casualties were dead while about 3/4 of the American casualties were listed as wounded.