Unbelievable I did NOT share this with you already...!

This edition of Clementi with DOUBLE metronome indications was on the book shelf for over 20 years... and I did NOT share it with you... can you believe that?
The great star here is named Isodore Philipp (1863-1958). And if you're French and watch this, hope you don't fall over mispronouncing his last name 85% of the time. It skipped my mind until I sat down to edit the video. That's the nature of a one man show I guess. Don't let it ruin your experience with this unique score that, as far as I know, has no equal!
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[@robertklein8187]

Wim, you have such a wealth of sources, have you ever considered writing a paper on double beat for an international peer-reviewed musicology journal?

[@AuthenticSound]

I will be writing an article for the Early Music magazine NEMA, they reached out to me, it's for the coming weeks!

[@robertklein8187]

Great to hear. You currently reach 17K people on KZbin, which is amazing! You will probably never reach 17K people through an academic paper, but an academic paper will give a level of credibility that I doubt KZbin can ever give.

[@rjones2209]

You should never play or listen to music earlier than 9 am else you will not get anything else done that day.

[@alexanderrice1654]

The explanation that the tempo indicates a range from a starting practice tempo to a final practice tempo makes the most sense. Hanon for instance (since you named him) presecribes a range MM quarter=60-108 at the beginning of his book, saying, "Begin with the metronome set at 60, gradually increasing the speed up to 108; this is the meaning of the double metronome mark at the head of each exercise." This is undoubtedly how Philipp's metronome markings would have been understood by the general public at the time this edition was published. The notation also suggests it's intended as a tempo range because it uses a dash between the note values. If someone wanted to indicate a single tempo, if they had their head on straight, they would not have used a dash between the two note values. Here's just one other example, Philipp's School of Technique. In the introduction, it describes how the student should start at the slower metronome and work up to the higher (at which point the student can go to quicker tempos if desired). Some, though not all of the metronome ranges given are in a 1 to 2 ratio as well. imslp.org/wiki/School_of_Technic_(Philipp%2C_Isidor)

[@AuthenticSound]

Hanon gives 60-108 for the 4th note (!! compare that to Czerny's half note...), but the exact 1:2 relation ship Philip gave can only mean an interpretation of the MM, it makes no sense AT ALL to start practicing at the first tempo. Also, try the Philipp tempi (if you consider them to be single beat) out at the piano, that's the domain where any answer must lie instead of focusing of what 'could' be, it's a very practical edition, and, btw, only saw that later, a reprint from the same Richault plates, hence the reason they could only 'add' info instead of chaning it, and they did this for the American market. But first things first: play the Philipp tempi and you'll be cured of this idea soon!

[@alexanderrice1654]

@@AuthenticSound AuthenticSound I don't think Hanon's tempo range probably has much relevance for this topic. Hanon's purpose is to develop strength and agility of the fingers rather than sheer velocity, and he says to play the exercises raising the fingers high, which runs contrary to playing fast. Another thought about Hanon that just occurred to me is that if a big-name French pianist like Philipp were using double-beat metronome markings well into the 20th century, what is the likelihood that Hanon would not have also been using double-beat metronome markings? Perhaps the quarter=108 is a double-beat marking as well?

[@alexanderrice1654]

@@AuthenticSound When I suggested the lower mark be taken as a "starting" tempo, I didn't necessarily mean that the student has to sit down and sight-read the exercise perfectly at that tempo, but rather that that's the starting tempo for the prescribed practice work, and going off the School of Technic I posted, probably the manner of playing would be varied as the student progressed from the lower to the upper tempo.

[@rand503]

NO. That's actually quite ridiculous. My teacher Harold Bradley learned the Complete School of Technic from Philipp himself, and taught it his entire life. He knew Philipp for 30 years. I myself spent many years going through the entire book, and never once did Mr. Bradley ever suggest such a thing. On top of that, if you bothered to read the preface, you will notice that Phiipp specifically says to play all the exercises as slowly as possible. He often like to say, "first you start practicing slowly, then you get slower, and finally you practice as slowly as possible." He would have NEVER intended any metronome marking as the "starting" point, or the slowest you should play that piece or exercise. Too slow was never too slow for him! Indeed it was the secret of his own technique. So why would he put any marking indicating speed that is faster than how you should practice it? I can quite emphatically say that Philipp believed you were to practice always with the metronome, and as slowly as possible, and then slowly increase the metronome, moving it up only if you can play it perfectly. Then you practice it up at your desired tempo, and then even past that. Because obviously if you can play it perfectly way too fast, you can play it perfectly and with ease at the proper tempo that you choose.

[@pauriuro7561]

I've been watching a lot of your videos but, honestly, this is the best one! For me, this was crucial: tempi of the early XIX century were taken faster around 1900 (17:56). This will answer a lot of questions I'm having about Schumann's op. 56... Thank you!

[@kennithnichol]

Congratulations, this does legitimately present itself as a transitional score-illuminating that there was a change in perception from double to single beat. The first marking being the single beat time, and the second (original) double beat time. Even Czerny's piano school volumes do not list progressive markings on the score. Music that does have progressive metronome markings do so with a numeric range not a note value range, ie 1/4 = 60-80.

[@AuthenticSound]

that's a thought I didn't have but it makes much sense, thanks for sharing this!

[@ioannestritemius3791]

Just watched this for the first time; this truly is a forensic needle in the haystack!!

[@Clavichordist]

Now for something interesting... (Pats self on the back here). My first piano teacher studied with Isidor Phillip when he was in New York in the early 1940s. Today I would love to ask her questions about her studies with him, but unfortunately she now has dementia and no longer converses well. It's too bad that the timing is poor as it usually is because only a decade ago, she was quite lucid and would tell me about her studies with Beveridge Webster and others. Looking at the Wikipedia article about Isidor Phillip, and I see many similarities to the things she taught me, however, with her own technique thrown in that she got from someone else, which she claimed is the Leschetizky school. But anyway back to the wiki article. "In interviews his students remember him with a great deal of affection and remark about his gentle and patient manner as a teacher. Students commented that he stressed suppleness, firmness, rhythmic exactitude and articulation. He insisted on practicing with the metronome, first slowly, then incrementally faster for all technical exercises and in learning any new piece. He taught that octaves should be played from the wrist, with a motionless arm, and that fingers should attain true independence of one another. Like other great teachers, he did not have a 'system', but taught what the student needed at the time. Paul Loyonnet stated his ideals were velocity, sobriety of expression and the jeu perle style. As for interpretations, he stressed that the student must know the piece intimately and thoroughly before it can be properly played, but did not force any particular interpretation." My teacher unfortunately did not have the suppleness, but instead had a very, very tightly curled fingers that she lifted very high with wrists held very stiffly. This was something that took me a decade to unlearn as it was quite detrimental to playing anything quickly because there was so much motion between the fingers and the keys in addition to the stiff joints and fingers. If one were to see her hold her hands, they were the exactly the same as those we see in pictures of Wanda Landowska! I wonder where she got this from, but she claims it's from Leschetizky School. I can see the point of building a base upon which the music can be draped, but we would work on pieces for what seemed like decades before we would do anything with the expression. In those days, it was probably a month or two, but being 13 or 14 it seemed like decades. I can say I learned the notes well, but by the time we reached that point where the music was 100% accurate, I was completely stale and hated the pieces because I was bored to death. If they were food, it would be like eating dry crackers without even a bit of butter. As Phillip taught, we would work up the tempo faster and faster each week until we reached the full tempo marked for the piece. If there were any mistakes, we would slow down again and work through them before moving up in tempo again. What is interesting is I can go back and play many of these works today 100% accurately still but they are as I learned them still 100% emotionless! Even today when learning something new, I will go through very slowly and firmly, but will put in at least the basic dynamic markings. Once the music is learned, I will then go back and put in the shading and other things missed on the first go around. The metronome plays an important part in my practicing and learning today just as it did back then. There are some things learned that are retained I suppose. Anyway this is quite a flashback. I only wish my teacher was still cognitive today and could add to much of what is being said. Born in 1920 and studying with Godowsky, Phillip, and Webster among others, puts her right into the that golden age where that transition between the 19th and 20th century was beginning.

[@rand503]

What is your teacher's name? I studied under Harold Bradley, who was a close associate of Philipp from the late 1920s until his death in the 1950s. Thank you for quoting the Wikipedia article -- I wrote the whole thing. If you have any further information, I will be happy to include it. I wrote a biography of sorts of Philipp, cobbling together everything I could find and also republishing some of Etude articles. If you like, I will be happy to send it to you if you send me your email address.

[@Clavichordist]

@@rand503 That's a great Wiki article and wow, Harold Bradley! These people are getting rare today and meeting someone from the golden age is truly amazing still. It's too bad my teacher isn't lucid enough now to give us some insight. My teacher was/is Virginia (Klötzle) Prescott. She was the youngest graduate from New England Conservatory back in the 1930s, I think in 1936 or '38. She was all of 16 or 18 back then! She studied with Beveridge Webster before he became dean of Juilliard School of Music, and she went on to study there as well and studied and taught in New York. A bit later she returned to Boston and taught at New England and Boston conservatories. She was one of the early faculty members of what became the Preparatory Department, which is now the Continuing Education Department at NEC where she met my mom who was the administrative assistant to the college president and later to Frances Lanier, the founder of the Prep Department. She's 98 now and became friends with my mom and later my family, and spent many holidays with us. Both of my uncles, now in their 70s, studied with her and then I did for about 7 or 8 years before moving on to other teachers. She's like an aunt to our family and it's truly sad to see her as she is now because there is no way to have a real conversation with her now. When seeing these exercises and later reading the Wikipedia article, I had flashbacks of studying with her. She was kind, but very strict. I was taught to play firmly and evenly right to the bottom of the key bed. The problem with this method is it's brutal on the fingers and joints, and one loses the touch and feeling for the music because there is none. The virtue of the method is the accuracy and really knowing music inside and out, but there is no development of any kind of virtuoso playing, at least when I was younger. One of the things she had me do in later years was to play pieces from memory backwards! S L O W L Y she would right in my lesson books, which I still have today tucked away on my shelf. I would be interested in those old reprints. Phillip was yet another link back to the great composers and the performance methods in the 19th century, which we are studying now with Wim. I will send you a private message if they are still available on KZbin. if not we'll figure something out.

[@rand503]

@@Clavichordist Thanks for your story! What you say is EXACTLY the same way I was taught, with a few differences. I didn't find it rough on my fingers or joints, and that is because Bradley stressed that the hand and fingers must always be relaxed. No tension or stress whatsoever. Once you develop strength and evenness, you can play anything virtuosic. Also, Bradley never lost sight of the emotions in the music. He didn't teach much about interpretation, but rather showed me many ways to play a particular passage. Interpretation was then left to me. He often said that there were limits to how far to take intepretations, but within those limits there are hundreds of ways of playing a piece. Most pianists pick only a handful, and neglect all the other ways. His favorite recordings were always by pianists who had strong personalities and played very differently from the basic approaches I was taught.

[@Clavichordist]

@@rand503 Mrs. Prescott claimed she had studied the Leschitisky method as well, but that doesn't seem right because I had other teachers who had the same method and did not play that way. Wherever she got this technique from, I don't know but she always held her hands stiffly in that same position that Wanda Landowska does in those old pictures of her playing. Being my earliest teacher, she had passed that on to me, which took many years to break from. Sadly once bad habits are learned, the seem to stick and when I'm stressed, I seem to go back to that. Today it hurts my left hand terribly in my joints when I play, but the right hand is fine. I do have some neurological problems which may contribute to that as well, but this is definitely in the joints, and the damage was done decades ago. I suppose it's like falling off a bike or playing ball. You hurt yourself when you're 12, but pay the price for it when your're 50! I agree when done with relaxation always in mind, this is the best way to learn and really does build up the articulation. My subsequent teachers were all about relaxation including the Alexander Technique with all kinds of helpful exercises, and my speed increased to some great levels but always accurate too. When I was in better shape, I could play trills in all fingers and both hands, and in all combinations including thirds-trills quickly.

[@rand503]

If are addressing the questions to me, no I never studied with Philipp. My teacher Harold Bradley began his association with Philipp in the late 1920, and that continued right until he died in the 1950s. As a result, Philipp told Bradley that of all his pupils, it was only Bradley who fully absorbed all that he knew about the piano. Basically, the tempos I took were not quite half the speed slower than standard interpretations, but certainly they WERE slower. Mr Bradley complained much about about this: That our sense of speed is sped up over the past 2 centuries, and that most pianists play everything way too fast. For a young pianist, this was rather frustrating, as I wanted to play virtuosity, of course. I studied a lot of Debussy, since Philipp was friends with Debussy and helped him notate a lot of his piano music. Between them, they decided that there will be virtually no pedal markings, despite the obvious necessity . That's because they knew that if Debussy put in any pedal markings, pianists would forever take that as sacred, and would never deviate. But the whole point of Debussy is that he wanted a certain SOUND to emerge, and you might have to use different pedaling depending upon your skill level, your piano, the venue you are playing in, and so on. So no, we did not take a dogmatic approach. Rather, you have to start with end-- what effect are you trying to accomplish. Then you fit your playing to achieve that. This is exactly backwards from most pianists, who take the music as a set of software instructions to be played exactly as written, and what you hear is what comes out.

Yes, it is too late! You have already convinced me before, so this has no effect on me. :D

[@AuthenticSound]

I plead guilty... with pleasure!

[@ilfisarmonicistapazz]

In one of your videos (that I would like to find again) was there an image of the beginning of the prelude in C# major BWV 848 with a metronome number of 92 for the dotted quarter note. How do interprete that speed in a ternary time signature?

[@AuthenticSound]

Here's a video on the tactus inaequalis: kzbin.info/www/bejne/mmWulmikq8unkMk

[@SiteReader]

Love that Star Trek flashback--made me laugh out loud.

[@dantrizz]

These sort of score are great to see

[@1980subrosa]

Another great video Wim! My take in Grazia's tempo markings are that, perhaps, a slower tempo (in doble beat) is required because it is a pedagogical work that instructs the student to play much slower than the student would have studied it by himself. There are plenty of examples of modern pianists that advocate for an extremely slow tempo to practise (Rachmaninov playing Chopin's etude in thirds it is said to have played each bar at 20 seconds, 1.25 seconds per semiquaver [Chasins, Abram. 1967. Speaking of Pianists. New York: Knopf, 44.]).

[@theskoomacat7849]

Fantastic!

[@divisix024]

That’s a *nice* thumbnail you got there Wim.

[@troyweston5355]

Hi. Love your channel. "Hello everybody". With your characterful voice and Belgian accent in English. I keep saying it in your voice when friends visit. But what was that lovely and quite gothic music playing while we scanned the music pages from the beginning of the video (0.20......) "See you next time. Bye!"

[@AuthenticSound]

nice :)

[@lukashuber2075]

What would you say about metronome marks in more modern music, like Bartók for example?

[@AuthenticSound]

With a new story shared to me by a viewer on Ravel, I dare to say nothing anymore... but Bartok, probably single beat...? I think?

[@TheEtude]

Dear Winters, which periods does double beat theory concise? Can we use this in Nocturenes of Chopin for example? How does this apply o adagio and andante pieces? I am really interested in this theory and would be happy in your reply.

[@AuthenticSound]

That is really hard to say, since it has not been researched deeply (nor by Lorenz), just yesterday we (Lorenz Gadient and I) had a telephone call on this video, and scrolling through etudes by Isidore Philipp, there simply is no other conclusion than that Phlipp was 'ein metriker', so applying double beat, unless people can play 26 notes or more in a second. it's so striking that I will make a follow up video on this. Do watch the Reger Straube videos, the link is in this video, it's striking, really

[@fogonpr]

Chopin nocturnes are almost every time played on double beat. If you check the metronome markings, they are moderately fast. Therefore people never care reading the metronome markings. This double beat theory then explains how is it supposed to be played. So literally, the way Chopin nocturnes are played are basically double beat. Some others get even slower, but in the Chopin nocturnes case, they stay the same.

[@AuthenticSound]

I saw that recording, and honestly, I have not studied that period enough to say something on Saent-Saens, but that MM of 120 4. reads like a single beat number. Got an interesting 'case' through mail, Ravel's pavane, originally indicated as 4=80 (1899), later around 1910 (there happened a lot around this period, we must go deeper into that, and with 'we' I mean we all- he gave for the orchestral version 4=54. He played this on rolls in 54, but it appears (I'm no specialist), that those rolls were adjusted to the speeds of the scores, so there would be not too much for sure (again i don't know). But 4=54 is a bit faster in single beat than 4=80 in... double beat. Reading Ravel was 'accused' earlier of playing this pavana really slow, and hearing even Richter playing it around 46, well, what conclusion would we draw? Then looking to the few Debussy MM... they are so fast, that one starts to think that he applied db as well. I believe that time around 1910-1915 things changed, don't know why, see also the Reger Straube videos on my channel. Crazy stuff

[@historicaltemperaments3566]

@@AuthenticSound Concerning this suspected "date of change" around 1910-1915: we can hear Brahms playing, he follows the tempo that we are used to today. We can hear Debussy playing much faster(!) then his own MM (the song "Green"). We can hear Bartók, most importantly his early wax cylinder recordings, he plays very-very fast, much faster then his MMs (excerpts from Skcetches). All these are acoustic recordings, so the speed is correct. We can hear Leshetizky, from a roll and let's assume it is correct speed. He plays Mozart Fantasy in C minor (if I recall well) close to the nowaday's tempo, may be 10% _faster_ than the average performance on youtube. Former students of Liszt (tend to) play a bit slower than pianists of today (15-20%), these are mostly roll and in some cases, acoustic recordings. What I can hear is that the tempo slowed down around the 50s-60s, Richter era, Glenn Gould later, who played Bach and Mozart, even some significant Beethoven works slowlier than ... Backhaus, Schnabel etc. In general, I am quite convinced that people played about the same tempo in the early 19 century as we play today; but definitelly they did not play slower in the era of the earliest recordings! There is much evidence for the contrary.

[@historicaltemperaments3566]

This makes no sense about the technical abilities, of course, Richter had an extraterrestrial technique, and _still_ played the WTC in relative slow tempi. (Even the contrary is not an evidence for things; if I cannot play the Hammerklavier in Czerny's tempi, it makes no sense with the question how Beethoven played it!...)

[@music_appreciation]

By the way, do you know approximately when your long-awaited pianoforte will be delivered?

[@AuthenticSound]

We hope to receive it as a Christmas present

[@mikeystevenson6982]

Wim's lessons/commentaries here are immensely valuable to all musicians. Danke, sir Wim.

[@lugal-zage-si4782]

This is great! You should try to publish your findings!

[@AuthenticSound]

We will publish a complete new version of Lorenz Gadient's book December 2019!

[@anjaschouteden6749]

Great video.

[@dantrizz]

Did you ever make a video on the Pugno story?

[@AuthenticSound]

I mentioned it once, the full video is on the waiting list

[@alicewyan]

Speaking of Widor, aren't there recordings of him playing his own works in a ridiculously fast tempo?

[@AuthenticSound]

That's true, and it's a video that I'm planning to make longtime. It shows that when we would have a recording of Mozart, chances are we wouldn't be playing like him

[@alicewyan]

@@AuthenticSound Early Music Sources published a video recently in which they show several early 20th century recordings and they're quite unlike anything we're used to hearing, so yes, I'm sure that if we could listen to Beethoven or Bach or Mozart, it would be very different from anything we do right now.

[@edcard29]

What is that metronome app?

[@AuthenticSound]

the first I found, I think they're all ok

[@rjones2209]

Loose tuning pins - any technician can fix this. If there is room to bang them further in, then do that with a hammer and the pin-setting tool designed for this purpose. If that won't suffice, then shim them with fine grade garnet paper (grit size out). Probably you will need to replace the whole (or part) pinblock but then no harm in trying these easier options first.

[@AuthenticSound]

Thank you for sharing your advice here, which could havebeen very well the case, though the pins seem to be ok, tuning block as well, it might have to do with the relatively short strings in the treble. It's much harder as well to find the 'color' of the octaves than on my Erard. But we'll try harder!

[@rjones2209]

On hearing your other video it becomes clear I was banging on the wrong thing here. Seems more like an issue with either the strings or their bearings. Is it that they go out of tune or that they don't get in tune to begin with? Maybe a matter of insufficiently solid and accurate bridge pins at either end of the strings. If so then there is the advantage that those short strings can be unwound repeatedly without too much worry of loosening the tuning pins too much. Maybe the strings got a bit bent when installed, and would be better replaced? Why not do that anyway while checking the other things?

[@Clavichordist]

@@AuthenticSound Mr. Jones might be right. I sent you an email about what my piano tuner said when I discussed this with him yesterday after my, ahem, $160 tuning. The sandpaper trick will work but you'll need a technician to pull out the pin, I think, to put the paper shim in. What's happening is the string tension is turning the pin on you even though it may feel tight. The alternative to sandpaper is CA glue (super glue or Locktite). Talk to a technician first before "juicing" the pins. They know more about this. He also mentioned some weak structures, but I would focus on the pins first.

[@SalseroAt]

On IMSLP imslp.org/wiki/Etudes_techniques_pour_servir_%C3%A0_l'enseignement_sup%C3%A9rieur_du_piano_(Philipp%2C_Isidor) i found a collections of etudes where often 3 oder even more metronome marks are given. What is strange is that often different notes with the same value are given, sometimes different speeds, sometimes both at once.

[@musicalintentions]

[@AuthenticSound]

Thank you so much for your support!! Perhaps we''ll talk Saturday on the monthly hangout?

[@musicalintentions]

AuthenticSound I’m sorry that I missed the hangout. Perhaps the next one! ❤️

[@petertyrrell3391]

Something like these strange fingerings (12:40) might suit op 27 no 2 presto agitato bar 33 and following.

[@WesCoastPiano]

First! Can you upload that score to imslp?

[@MegaMech]

So immature

[@mikeystevenson6982]

@@MegaMech Haha xD

[@leif-erikhallmann]

Why not upload all of his scores?😂

[@Rollinglenn]

Maybe when his daughters are old enough, they can do the scanning and uploading of his entire library of early editions?

[@rogermccormick9875]

Bravo, Monsieur, Bravo!

[@larssmaladen6247]

Take it easy, take it slow, take it... double beat...

[@rand503]

Wim, you are undoubtedly correct. I studied piano for many years under Harold Bradley. Bradley began his studies with Isidor Philipp at the Paris Conservatory in the late 1920s, and quickly established a close and enduring relationship with him. In quick order, Bradley was hired at the Paris Conservatory as a prepatory instructor. The Paris Conservatory system was set up at the time that if you were accepted as a student at the performance level at the Conservatory, you had to work with the prep instructor to make sure your technique was up at top notch. Only then would you take lessons from Philipp himself (who was the head of the Piano Department) for final polishing. Bradley came back to Niagara Falls, Ontario to establish his own music school, but the close relationship remained until Philipps death. Bradley was the only teacher and school that Philipp allowed his name to be associated with it, and is because he believed that Bradley has fully absorbed what Philipp had learned over the decades. Bradley taught me many of the Clementi etudes, and he learned them directly from Philipp. Philipp would NEVER have allowed his students, no matter how advanced, play any of the etudes as fast as our reading of the metronome. Bradley had me practice and play those etudes at slow tempi, because that is the only way to strengthen the fingers and build a technique. You are also correct, Bradley had me practice anything and everything in different fingerings, and adding accents wherever they would be most awkward. It is the best way to build a strong technique. I had to play scales using 1-4 fingerings, even 1-5! Only with slow practicing can you get to the point where every finger is equally strong, and you have total control over it. As a result, you never have to bang the piano to produce a loud tone, and you can play fast and quiet, which is the most difficult of all. Bradley never told me about your theory, but he often lamented that pianists in the 20th century play most everything way too fast. (For a young student, it was hard for me to understand!) Now that I look back, I realize that all music from Beethovan and backwards, he had me play fairly slowly, even the fast movements. Chopin -- he never encouraged me to play too fast. However, one point I can tell you: In the Beethoven Sonata No. 18, the 4th and last movement, it opens with a left hand configuration. It is supposed to sound like a horse clip clopping down the street. Once you realize that, it's actually pretty funny how it sounds. But in order to get that, the tempo must be about half the speed of what people play it today. Clearly, they are missing the whole point by playing to twice as fast. One last thought -- I found an article written by Philipp in the Etude magazine about the Chopin Etudes. He quotes many of the greatest pianists of the late 19th century, all of whom rhapsodize about the sheer beauty of the etudes. None talk about their virtuosity, but rather talk about the gorgeous melodies, the shifting and unconventional harmonies, and ground breaking nuances and sounds for the piano. No one talks that way today about the etudes, as they are played WAY too fast to even hear any nuance. BTW, I wrote the wikipedia page on both Philipp and Bradley and would welcome any corrections or additions.

[@AuthenticSound]

Thanks for sharing this incredible story Randy!!

[@thomashughes4859]

I love "Easter Eggs"!