My New Net Zero Home Battery Surprised Me

[@UndecidedMF]

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[@PetraKann]

The packaging waste is enormous for your lazy FACTOR cuisine. It doesn't take long to cook up a healthy meal. And the same meal can be used for several sittings.

[@powerguymark]

I think NCM is correct. You had it right...

[@michaelharrison1093]

One detail that is worth pointing out relates to the frequent misunderstanding regarding the difference in the round trip efficiency difference between the Enphase all AC connected system and the competitive DC connected systems. It is commonly stated that since a PV string produces a DC voltage and the storage battery is also DC that this means that there are zero conversion losses with a DC coupled system. This is clearly not true - if you look at any DC coupled system you will find that the battery voltage is much lower than the PV string voltage and there is a requirement to allow the PV voltage and battery voltage change independently of each other to impliment MPPT control of the PV and charge control of the battery. This voltage difference and independence is achieved through the use of a battery converter in a DC coupled system. The companies who promote DC coupled systems will come back with an unsubstantiated assertion that a DC:DC converter should be more efficient than an equivalent AC:DC converter but this is not a valid argument if they are making a comparison to Enphase on the basis that the Enphase microinverter is more efficient than the DC:DC charge converters that are used in the commercially available DC coupled home energy products.

[@pranavid]

Matt, you missed the grid islanding technology during the power outage which only Enphase offers. The microinverters and tune the power output on the fly in the island grid mode based on the home's demand. That is where the Enphase shines.

[@KeithOlson]

If you *REALLY* want to be energy-efficient, do a deep dive on the 'Jean Pain Compost Heating System'. It can heat your house/greenhouse/pool/driveway & walkways/etc., as well as *drastically* boost your heat pump's efficiency in the winter time, and all while creating a top-notch soil amendment. Not bad.

[@TJPavey]

We need a standard for interfacing all of this together. So many of these systems are propriety and you are in a walled garden.

[@kiddy1992]

It exists, it's called reading out all the data over modbus and doing it yourself in homeassistant. I have 3 different brand inverters and i just readout the power generation with a 3 phase power meter over modbus, you can do the same with battery systems

[@paul1979uk2000]

We do but it's unlikely the companies will do that as it will give us more options, competition and lower prices, so unless the government regulates so different system are compatible with each other, which I think will happen at some point in many countries, but until then, I don't see the companies themselves offering that yet, and your best option if you have the skills and know-how, is to do your own set-up.

[@meikgeik]

@@kiddy1992 I'm pretty dang tech savvy, and getting home assistant to work reliably can be a hundred+ hours if you have a couple dozen devices to integrate. It's getting better all the time, but it's not quite there yet.

[@ScoobyFermentation]

Especially with bi-directional charging

[@ericfrancis7816]

We've had a solar company tell us they won't install batteries at our location because they won't or can't work with another company's system. Which seems... odd.

[@davidkendall2272]

We installed two Tesla PW2's in 2018 for $15k to complement our existing 2012 installed 13.2 kW Solar PV system with microinverters and have been operating as a microgrid for ~8 months of the year in Edmonds, WA, while suppling our energy needs to our all electric home, charging two Tesla's and exporting ~50 percent of our excess energy back to grid via Net Metering. Last year we produced 474 percent (Solar production: 12,197 kW versus Net electric use: 2628 kW). We also have electric heat pump and heat pump water heater, and have done lots of other things to increase our energy efficiency. Our home was certified as being a Net Zero Energy building in 2016 by the International Living Future Institue. Our setup as been exceptionally satisfying for us, and we have weathered many power outages successfully with our system.

[@jamesbrady2156]

What did your system cost and what do you save each year?

[@davidkendall2272]

@@jamesbrady2156 Our 2012 solar PV system was a bit pricey $83k back in the early days, and now would cost around $20-25k. Fortunately WA state had incentives which enabled us to fully pay off the cost in 7 years. Our annual electric bill costs us around $180/year. We also charge our two Tesla's completely off our roof except when on longer trips, when we utilize Tesla's supercharging grid, and we haven't been to a gas station in more than 12 years and am completely done with ICE vehicles.

[@davidkendall2272]

@@jamesbrady2156 Our 2012 solar system with microinverters cost us $83k with incentives in place in Washington State which enabled us to pay off our solar within 7 years. We got a annual $5k check back from our electric utility provider for seven years through Net Metering by buying solar panels and inverters produced in WA. Solar costs have subsequently been reduced by factor of 4 now, and those incentives are no longer in place, but a comparable solar PV system now would cost $20-25k. Our annual electric bill averages $180-200/year.

[@C_R_O_M________]

Net zero my behind! That's a propaganda term all the way. You people have no idea what you are talking about.

[@ariisaac5111]

Nice. But since you don't mention your cost savings I assume you still have not broken even on your initial investment, which is very sad.

[@greenshadow622]

All of these battery puns have left me completely drained.

[@roseymalino9855]

I get a charge out of them.

[@jefftemple5235]

Watt do you mean?

[@jmcguire56]

I am shocked by all this!

[@danmallery9142]

Try to remain positive.

[@JohnnyWednesday]

They have the potential to keep me grounded

[@mrfusioneng]

We also have a net zero home in south florida. Where typically near 50% of our electrical usage goes to air conditioning. Of course we have a well insulated home, with all energy star appliances and such. We regularly get hurricanes and sometimes lose electric for a couple weeks after. So we designed our system around that need. Some pointers about real electrical consumption. First off you can ignore needing to run tv’s , internet, computers, etc during an outage, because none of that stuff will work anyway, ( because it’s cut off at the source, which we have no control over). Next on the list is washer and dryer, you won’t need those either because there is no water, ( and even if there is, it won’t be drinkable or usable, ( all the pumping stations run off the grid, no grid no water)). Next is lights, it’s much easier to use portable rechargable lights in rooms where you plan to occupy at night. However a few lights and ceiling fans should be included in the mix. Next up is electric oven, forget about it, get a convection microwave, or a toaster oven/ air fryer, ( much more energy efficient, and runs on 120 ac typically. Forget about electric vehicle charging, you won’t need it, all the roads are destroyed, and there are no stores or gas stations open anyway. We do have a 4 wheel drive jeep, which can ford deep water and can get thru some pretty rough stuff, but again there is nowhere to go. We have an in ground pool, where the filter and heating system runs typically 8-10 hrs/day. In an emergency we can get by with higher chlorine contend, and run the filter for a couple hours every 2-3 days, ( basically turn some other stuff off during the time the pool pump is on, so we can use our solar and battery bank, on a sunny day, to keep the pool alive. It’s call time sharing, you only run certain things at the cost of others to not deplete your battery bank. If you think you are going to live normal life, using all the energy you want, you are in for a rude awakening, ( unless you have of course unlimited funds and want to spend $150k on your system, ( we paid around $25k for our whole system complete). Down here our number one priority is air conditioning and dehumidification, as the inside of the house gets over 100f and 90% humidity with no ac. And forget about nighttime cooling with the windows open, ( we don’t do that here). The lows at night are typically in the mid 80’s and the humidity actually goes up at night typically, ( sometimes over 90%). And there is typically no wind in florida anyway, ( especially in cities, where we live). We do live right near the gulf, and that helps moderate temps some, but that’s a double edge sword, ( coastal flooding). Instead of trying to use the central ac system during a a grid outage, ( which uses tremendous amounts of energy, ( 50% of our usage when the grid is up and running). We elected to design and build a water based TES , ( thermal energy storage system). When we have an outage we only use the TES system, and a whole house dehumidifier system. Both of which run off of a secondary solar system we have on a shed in our back yard, ( none of which is connected to the house wiring in the house, ( completely self sufficient). Every car in America has a similar system installed, ( using circulating water, running thru a radiator to transfer heat). During the day, ( when the sun is shining), we circulate the water, ( stored in two large insulated tanks in our garage, ( 100 gallons each, ( home depot, $140 bucks ea)). A small circulating water pump, ( normally used on boiler systems, ($60 bucks)). A radiator for the air to pass thru, ( mounted in a duct box, in the center of our attic, between the air return, and main plenum, with a small inline circulating fan mounted in the duct to circulate the air thru the house). What occurs is hot air rises into the return ducts, runs thru the radiator, ( heat exchanger), get cooled down, then the cool air just fall out of all the register in the ceiling in the house, ( remember cold air falls). Though the system is very small, it keeps the house below 80f and the humidity below 60%, ( via the whole house dehumidifier). Without needing to run the central hvac system at all, ( during the power outage). During the day electric chillers, ( running on sun power) cool the house, and cools the water in the tanks. Once the sun goes down, the chillers go off, and the reserved energy in the water itself keeps the house cool thru the night, ( continuously circulating, taking the warm in from the returns, then expelling the cool air out all the registers in each room. The only power used at night is the water pump, and the solid state inline circulating fan. So we can operate the whole works off of around 400ah of lithium phosphate batteries, then the next day the cycle begins again. For really rainy days we do have a small honda generator, that we can charge the bank up in a couple hours if needed. We found even on partially cloudy days, our solar generates enough to keep everything going, ( without needing the generator). When the grid is up and everything is healthy, we still use the TES system, because it cuts the run time hours on the main hvac system in half, so instead of the main hvac system working 10hrs a day on stage 2, it only needs to run on stage 1, half the runtime, and using much less power, than without the TES system. The result being instead of the ac electrical cost being $5-$6 dollars a day, our main hvac system costs about a buck or two, ( electrical usage). The TES system is always totally free because it’s powered by it’s own solar array and battery bank, ( thru a pair of Growatt all in one inverters, ( not tied to our big grid tied solar system at all). I just don’t understand why people are spending so much trying to do simple tasks. We generate more energy than we use typically. 😂

[@fixitpro]

Good for you. But. There are just not many in our population that understand the actions needed to adapt, to work within their climate to most efficiently solve their issues. And, not a lot of "professionals" can help either. Part of the process includes self-education, some (too many) don't or can't. I read every word and appreciate what you wrote. I live in Indiana, but it gave me some ideas about my own situation.

[@TheRealSnakePlisken]

Wow. Complex. All for your temporary comfort. Wouldn’t it be easier just to drive away for a week or two, or live somewhere else?

[@fixitpro]

@@TheRealSnakePlisken I think you replied to mrfusioneng's, but utube sent your reply to me. strange, but I kinda understand your comment.

[@drcasper]

@@TheRealSnakePlisken we do just this , but humidity will eat your house rotten faster than you think; I feel OP lives very near me 😂

[@tjones99]

"One throat to choke" is what we called it when we chose a single vendor solution... Time will tell and we all know you WILL tell how it works out in time! Thanks.

[@wazza33racer]

its also putting "all your eggs in one basket".

[@Triflixfilms]

If parts are not readily available for consumers to repair or if working on it yourself voids the warranty that is an immediate no-go. Enphase website pricing is not transparent requiring you to hand over personal data to get a rough estimate. This is the same reason I refuse to purchase a Mitsubishi mini split. I'd suggest people keep looking for a product that isn't anticonsumer. I really hope that Right to Repair outlaws these business models.

[@MonkeyJedi99]

"Voiding the warranty" is a jungle of a topic with the Magnusson-Moss Act. Most products the claim you void the warranty by opening a panel or cutting a 'magic sticker' are lying.

[@Warp9pnt9]

The way "Right to Repair" legislation is written in Massachusetts, if you actually read it, forbids and restricts doing repairs while also not requiring any specified level of detail for "repair" guides, turning manufacturers into monopolies for providing documentation, which is as bad of worse than not having the bogus law. I am for the philosophical right to repair. But I warn you against deceptive politicians and election bureaucrats who accept bills that promise one thing but do the exact opposite.

[@SetTheCurve]

to hell with every company that requires a phone call to learn the price of their products

[@Frank_W.]

Mitsubishi Mini splits are incredible. I had a HVAC company install one outside unit and it is taking care of my unfinished basement as well as my 2 car garage. The basement is roughly 2500 sq ft. Zero issues in 6 years. You don’t have to deal with Mitsubishi directly so I don’t understand your reluctance. Every home is different and it takes someone on site to actually figure out what the cost will be. Just my 2 cents.

[@MonkeyJedi99]

@@SetTheCurve Right? Not listing a price means the person you contact is very likely working on commission and is paid more if they can trick you into paying more.

[@pathfinderGM]

What I want to see is a center lot in a residential neighborhood turned into a dedicated energy storage center. Something that can turn the a few blocks of residential into a bit of a micro grid. That way the whole neighborhood can get solar and focus in electric for heat and cooking and provide emergency power as an option. I'm thinking like having 2 breakers in people's homes here. A normal 100amp service and then a optional 20/40amp emergency service that people can pay for for direct access to the battery system at all times. Think people with special medical needs kind of thing. The battery center's main goal would be a local place to be a energy buffer to overall lower the cost of electricity for the entire neighborhood. Reducing strain on the main grid acting like an expansion tank. And if it acts as a distributer for electricity then it can become its own net metering system for the local grid even if the state doesn't have one.

[@miriamrobarts]

What would be really nice is if you could also use the same space or building as a community center or park. The energy storage could be in the roof or 2nd floor, & underneath could be a 1st floor or open air pavilion for the community. Unfortunately, there would probably be problems with people who would ruin that sort of space, so it wouldn't be feasible except maybe in some kind of residential community, like an apartment complex, mobile home park, or a neighborhood with an HOA.

[@ninefox344]

I see news articles talking about how cell costs have gone below $100/kWh but then home batteries are selling for over 10x that cost...

[@paul1979uk2000]

I think my brother once told me why that is the case, the cheaper battery are being reserved for EV cars, which if true, then consumer grade batteries for the home are a lot more expensive than they should be and probably will remain so until there is enough capacity for the EV market. Which is ironic, because I have heard some people over the years say that it's actually cheaper to buy a EV car and use the batteries from that for your home then it is to buy the batteries on the market for your home. They really do need to narrow that price gap between the two because the tech is the same but the price difference is massive, and if batteries for the home were as cheap as they are for EV cars, solar energy would be a lot more enticing, especially for the ones that want to go gridless.

[@JustWhits]

If you do some digging you can get buy good all in one batteries for $200-300/kwh... Or even less if you diy the battery build. Eg4, big battery, and others have recently come out with some competitors to the Tesla power wall that are much much cheaper

[@WhoStoleMyAlias]

@@paul1979uk2000 I'm pretty sure that batteries for home use need to pass a lot more tests than those used in cars. Remember that these batteries need to be able to output several Kilowatts if you happen to run a dishwasher machine, or a water cooker, or an induction plate, and possible even several at the same time. Just imagine the speed you must be driving to drain a 60kWh battery in a mere hour. And UK? Forget about going gridless. Your usage graph is shifted six months from your solar production, to bridge that we're not talking kWh but MWh.

[@American_Energy]

Cell costs are dropping, but labor costs are rising.

[@robgriffin4801]

@@WhoStoleMyAlias ? My chevy bolt during city driving is consistently drawing like 10 - 20 kwh and at highway speeds more like 30 kwh. That's like if you had 6 dryers going at once, we'll in excess of typical household consumption.

[@MonkeyJedi99]

Love that impact barrier in front of your wall batteries. Very smart, as well as clean-looking.

[@HappilyHomicidalHooligan]

Probably required by Building Code due to the Electrical and Fire damage that would happen if they got hit by a car... HUGE electrical potential discharging in one massive short circuit would kill anyone hit by the arc or touching anything conductive when it was energized by the short...Then the lithium in the battery catches fire and now you have a whole 'nother problem to deal with...once Lithium starts to burn, not even smothering it in nitrogen or drowning it in water will put it out, that's one of the reasons Fire Departments HATE EV's like Tesla's, once they start burning, only time will put them out and lithium burns hot...not as hot as Thermite, but hotter than gas or diesel does so damage to the road/bridge structures is higher in an EV fire than it would be in a gas/diesel fire...

[@jimmurphy5355]

@@HappilyHomicidalHooligan You missed the fact that the battery in the units he installed are low voltage, and use the non-flammable LFP chemistry. Hit them with a car hard enough to create internal shorts in the cells and they will get hot and vent a bunch of smelly and somewhat toxic steam. There won't be any arc or explosion, and no shock hazard. The vented electrolyte is not flammable.

[@SteveMichaels]

Lots to think about when I do something like this in a year or two. Thank you Matt I feel informed about what I going to be getting into.

[@cameronf3343]

If you’re looking down the line instead of now then keep your eyes on sodium ion. They’re coming out of the line, safer, have more temperature range and will rapidly become more affordable than any lithium based one.

[@SteveMichaels]

@@cameronf3343 Yes I agree Sodium ion has great potential. Materials used is certainly attention getting. let's hope it gets the funding it needs.

[@Mindbulletz]

@@cameronf3343 Thanks for the tip.

[@MissyBeeeee]

I am pretty excited for sodium ion batteries. They are getting more and more close to the energy density of LFP. But even if they stay below it, you don't need high energy density for home storage.

[@HappilyHomicidalHooligan]

Nope...I don't really care if I need more batteries to get the storage density I need if that saves me money up front...my basement has the room and if it doesn't, I can always pour a concrete pad in the back yard and build a climate-controlled, insulated shed to stick them in...That would save me money too if I need a Sprinkler System in the structure the batteries are in...smaller area = one sprinkler head, pipe and pressure tank/electric pump...

[@tomas_klouda]

@@HappilyHomicidalHooligan With those batteries you don't even need climate controlled environment. The cool part about sodium ion batteries is their temperature tolerance and also the fact that you can discharge them to 0% and leave them like that without any damage, while for lithium based batteries this is what kills them permanently. Also sodium is much easier to get than lithium so those batteries will be cheaper one day. Unfortunately we already have a huge industry for lithium batteries but none for sodium so right now it won't be any cheaper and will take quite some time before it will get cheaper thanks to economy of scale.

[@HappilyHomicidalHooligan]

@@tomas_klouda I'd have the climate control to protect more than the batteries...it would be to keep the sprinkler pressure tank and water lines from freezing as well as keep the temperature and humidity relatively stable to reduce/eliminate condensation in the electronics and electrical connections to reduce corrosion... Also, while the battery chemistry may work at low temperatures, they will likely work better over the long run if their temp range stays stable... It's also to keep the Techs happy if I ever need Maintenance or Repairs done...if you were a Tech, wouldn't you want to work in a space that's 72F/22C even if it's really hot or below freezing outside? I know I'd be far happier with my Customer if they kept the work area comfortable if/when I had to go there...

[@tomas_klouda]

@@HappilyHomicidalHooligan sure, I am the Tech and I like comfortable temperature same as batteries and electronics do 😀 I was just pointing out the advantages of sodium ion batteries including that you don't really need the climate controlled environment. The fact you don't need it doesn't mean it is not beneficial to have it though 😉

[@BrandonDoyleMN]

I like the modular approach because you can move, add or remove them if needed. They’re also portable if we needed to bring power with us or help someone else out

[@jemezname2259]

20 Kwh isn't remotely enough for an off grid system, particularly if you have an ev to charge. I currently have 60 kWh of batteries with an sol-ark18 kW inverter and a combination of Big Battery which I don't recommend and eg4 batteries. I really need to double this system before getting a cybertruck. You drive your vehicle mostly during the day. You need to be able to charge it at night while you sleep. You can only do that if you have a really large battery at home. But you also need a large battery to get through winter storms without having to run a generator. Of course my situation is quite different to most people. The local coop does not allow solar so I refused to hook up to them. I am truly off grid on a small ranch. I heat and cool with a heat pump and cook on an induction cooktop. I haven't had to use a generator in over two years. I have a separate system at a small farm with an eg4 18K inverter and 30 kWh of eg4 batteries. Again I need more batteries on this system for nighttime operation of hydroponic systems. I currently have to shut them down at night which isn't ideal. The solar energy world is improving but the cost of batteries is still too high. It needs to drop by at least 50%.

[@Robulite]

Just use the output of the cybertruck as the backups backup xD

[@ericmaclaurin8525]

Doesn't the fact that you never use the generator mean that you have too many batteries? You obviously have enough for usage but from a cost basis it seems questionable to buy enough batteries to never need the generator that you already have. When you buy your brick, you'll have two electric cars so one of them can be the extra battery.

[@simonpaine2347]

​@@ericmaclaurin8525Brick lol. Way too polite.

[@MikrySoft]

@@ericmaclaurin8525 There is no such thing as too many batteries. If the battery has an expected lifetime (when the capacity drops to 80% of nominal) of 2500 cycles at 80% DOD (depth of discharge), at 50% DOD it would be closer to 5000 cycles and 10000 cycles at 25% DOD. That doesn't even include how the lifespan is extended since charge/discharge current per cell is smaller - 80% DOD @1C (so 20kW from 20kWh battery) is 2100 cycles, at 0.5C (10kW from same battery) is 2500 cycles and at 0.25C it's 3000 cycles. Obviously, that's only if money (and bureaucracy) are not an issue, but otherwise the answer to the "should I get more capacity" question is almost always "yes".

[@adaminfunkytown]

Don't worry about doubling the system for a cybertruck... they're mostly broken and won't start so you won't need to power it.

[@junkerzn7312]

The Enphase stuff is fairly good, I put them on the same bench as the Tesla PW3 (but not the earlier Tesla PW1 or PW2, which didn't have LFP batteries). However, the Enphase batteries and inverter sizing are about 4 years out of date. They don't provide enough storage and the inverter-v-storage ratio is skewed the wrong way. You don't need 24 individual inverters across your four batteries for reliability. That's just nuts. The 20 kWh of storage you have is not a whole lot of storage for doing anything other than load-shifting. Keeping storage margins intact for power failures and for decent load shifting eats up a surprising amount of storage. And while storm-watch style smarts sounds convenient, it is highly non-deterministic relative to actual power failures because not all power failures occur during a storm. Same with "smart" EV chargers set to utilize only excess solar for charging. The lack of determinism makes the reality less useful than it seems on paper, particularly in winter. SOC (state of charge) based automation is also usually a big fail when it comes to LFP batteries. The reason is that SOC cannot be estimated from voltage with LFP batteries, so SOC tracking has to be done by counting electrons (aka amp-hours in and out) and that gets way off over time. I strongly recommend not depending on SOC-based automation. If you intend to anyway, then ensure that your storage system is regularly charged to 100% because that is how the SOC is recalibrated. -Matt

[@tomas_klouda]

@@junkerzn7312 What would you recommend instead of SOC? 🧐 There is no issue with charging EV with excess solar other than the fact that the charger in the car is the most effective at it's designed speed, while you are usually going a lot slower than that. And in winter there is no excess solar at all, so you have to switch to different strategy. My LFP batteries are usually charged to 100% multiple times a week. Basically each sunny day means full charge. And I have an automation checking if there was at least a single full charge in last 7 days which forces the full charge if it doesn't find any.

[@junkerzn7312]

@@tomas_klouda In your case you clearly have enough excess solar to not have to worry about it a whole lot, though that might be different in winter. Generally, though, what I do for my excess solar is have an automation that starts dumping it once the battery voltage hits an obvious 99%+ value (56.8V). For the stop point, I usually use the float voltage (54.0V), which will still be 99% SOC when coming down from a fully charged voltage. Since my dumps are well in excess of my solar generation, what happens is that the main battery bank oscillates between 99% and 100% while the sun is out. You can also combine that with a timer. So, for example, you start the dump at 56.8V and reset the timer whenever the voltage hits 56.8V, then let the dump run for a specific period of time, such as 4 hours. That winds up being "start dumping when the battery is full and don't stop until 4 hours after sunset". Yet another method is to have the dump be a smaller secondary battery system. Store excess energy in the secondary battery system, then exhaust the entire content of the secondary battery system at a more opportune time (such as during the evening peak or overnight), depending on the application... with however much energy the system had collected during the day. -Matt

[@tomas_klouda]

@@junkerzn7312 Yes, I usually have enough energy since April till October. My only dump load is hot water tank and I rather use that electricity more efficiently 🤷‍♂️ In case EV needs charging I send it there but otherwise I have no other big consumer. Voltage is not very useful with LFP if I am not mistaken. Yes, you can detect full battery, but not much else... I rather try to use the energy before it even enters the battery as much as possible, so full battery in my house usually means I have already sent energy everywhere I could and there is no dump load available anymore. For this I need reliable detection of how much energy I already stored in the battery to know whether I have enough in case sun would stop shining and when I have enough (50-60%) I start sending it to opportunistic consumers like EV and then hot water tank.

[@junkerzn7312]

@@tomas_klouda I'm in the same boat excess-energy wise, but I don't spend a lot of time trying to optimize my EV charging beyond (roughly speaking) just plugging it during daytime once or twice a week when I happen to be home. I like the "secondary dump battery" approach the best because I can schedule the loads to run at more opportune times and have smaller loads run longer instead of having to find "large" loads to offset the much larger excess production wattage that occurs in real-time. And it gives me a 24-hour buffer to mess around during which I know the entire excess generation will get soaked up by the secondary battery, before both systems fill up and the solar begins to curtail. -Matt

[@tomas_klouda]

@@junkerzn7312 sounds like a nice toy to play with, but batteries are still pretty expensive => it makes economically no sense to invest in secondary battery system. It only make sense if you need the autonomy.

[@davelindgren5245]

I have 33KW of the older Enphase batteries. I wanted to get more this year. I went to get quotes on the newer Enphase batteries and they told me that I could not mix the older batteries and the new batteries. Let's just say I was not happy at all. There are a lot of advantages of the Enphase batteries if you have Enphase inverters but someone has completely dropped the ball by not designing them to work together in the same home. I went with Franklin batteries which was not what I wanted to do. My point is, you better purchase all the Enphase batteries you think you are going to need for the next 20 years because you don't know if the newer batteries will be compatible with what you have. And BTW, you won't be able to purchase the older model anymore when the new ones come out. Now I am worried about replacement parts for my version. For those of you wondering how I'm doing that. I have 2 200 AMP panels. I have 2 separate solar systems connected to each one of the 200 AMP service panels and 1 battery system connected to each of the 200 AMP panels.

[@csmarkham]

Thanks, Matt. I’ve had an Enphase system that I got before CA changed their Net Metering rules, but a year later hasn’t been installed yet. And that’s just the panels and microinverters. My head swims with battery options, but I need to lean toward grid-tie as 1.) I’ve got great rates for my contribution and 2.) I don’t have an electric car to charge yet. A lot to think about, but you’ve helped clarify it for me.

[@seanmcguire7532]

You mentioned that your Tesla has a 60 KWH battery. I would love to see more options for using electric vehicles for home backup power. We have solar with a string inverter already and just wish it were easier to tie an electric car into the system rather than buying a home battery. It seems like a no-brainer to me.

[@ericmaclaurin8525]

Amen! The government should also be making electric car subsidies at least partially dependant on the ability to use them for grid management.

[@EcoHouseThailand]

I have a BYD Seal with V2L hooked up to my solar grid connection - I don’t have a meter as I am off-grid. That adds the equivalent of 6 Tesla powerwalls of backup power. I can charge my car back during the day. Videos on my channel

[@airparnes]

Absolutely agree! When that functionality becomes available for my BEV I’m all in.

[@meikgeik]

It's kind of a bad idea to add more cycles to your car's battery since that battery more often goes through big spikes which are harder on the battery than slow gradual drain. Batteries are CHEAP nowadays, so it's not smart to churn through your proprietary pack's cycles on your Tesla/Lightning/Rivian/etc. A replacement pack on a Tesla is like $25k, yeah? You could get server rack batteries for $1100 that have 5kWh each for half that. EG4, SOK, and others make much better bang for the buck batteries that have heaters, communication ports, and apps so you can integrate them with almost any inverter on the market except the ones that lock you into their ecosystem.

[@simonpaine2347]

I​@@meikgeikIt depends on how you setup the system, which obviously depends on the type of system. I want to just connect my car to assist with the loads, rather than take over, so that means a nice steady discharge set at 1.6kw by the car's output. Unfortunately my Sol-Ark is not currently able to accept this (apparently they working on it) so what I've done is to connect the car into my first distribution panel after the inverter and in the event of a power cut or successive low solar days, I can at least run the house overnight. I have also made it possible for the car to charge the hot water tank when needed, which has proved to be a valuable option.

[@williammcdermet6932]

We've had Enphase for more than a year now, and we're very happy. But, a system with the same storage and less generation here in Puerto Rico was $47,000. No regrets.

[@fullyelectric]

@Matt F. Its amazing how far you have come,I have been watching you since you started this channel and a few others since then, yes back in the old OG Tesla phase of our life lol, anyways congratulations on the new house and solar setup. Just a few things to note, many modern solar panels has built-in power optimization tech, and for cheaper new panels you can buy Tigo power optimizer with rapid shutdown, so basically using string or micro inverters does not matter much any more since each panel performance will no longer affects each other, also DIY installation gets full access to the 30% credits as well, and the best solution for me has been a grid-tie systems with critical load and zero export, basically self consumption with TOU schedule charging time etc.. as far as cost EG4’s 14kwh external wall mount batteries cost little over $3k each with free shipping, I don’t really care what it cost others i only care what it cost me, my total setup cost $13.5k after 30% tax credits, (42kWh battery, 28 550w panels 15kPV and a EG4 18Kpv inverter), grid-tie setup with no export (zero export), just basic electrical permit needed as i am not back feeding the grid with a grid-tie setup, all this living in crazy NY, DIY with grid-tie zero export is the only way to go up here

[@dlg5485]

I'm a big fan of the EcoFlow modular system because it's so easy to expand as your need and/or budget grows.

[@jbattermann]

We've had five 5Ps & the Span Remote Meter with that severe 'drift' issue & it took months of discussion, convincing, replacement, diagnostic and internal escalation at Span.. and several weeks back they finally confirmed that their SoC algorithm has wrong assumptions about the 5P's (dis)charge curve and behavior. They said it would be addressed with a firmware update but that one has yet to materialize. I can provide the support ticket no for reference if anyone wants to increase focus on / priority of fixing the issue at Span given the defacto defunc load-shedding capability with these wildly incorrect state-of-charge assumptions. I've stopped recalibrating quasi every 2-3 days for now & the end result is that Span thought i.e. yesterday that we were at 35% even though we had been at a 100% for hours at that time of day. Either way, it's a proper bug in their FW for 5Ps, not just mere compounding CTs measurement inaccuracies.

[@tomas_klouda]

@@jbattermann I would say the bug is they are trying to do any assumptions. Why on earth are they not reading the SOC or give you the means of sending the real measured SOC to their system? Doing assumptions is utterly stupid!

[@jbattermann]

@@tomas_klouda Absolutely agree. The reality however is, from my understanding, Enphase has a horrendous pricing structure around its cloud / Enlighten API, a local one for their "Envoy" exists but is unofficial/unsupported and hence, I assume, Span chose the compromise to just use CTs and "assume"/"counts" what goes in and out. Technically an obviously far inferior way but seemingly the compromise they chose for the time being.

[@tomas_klouda]

@@jbattermann From my point of view every good product has a (preferably well documented) local API. So in case Span has one it should be possible to send the SOC value to it and don't blame them they are not able to get it from Enphase. And if the Enphase local API is at least somewhat stable, even though unofficial, I would assume that just reading the SOC from it shouldn't be a big deal. My take is, that any serious manufacturer should be ready for integration with some form of building management system, otherwise it's just a toy not meant for serious and reliable use. Sure, it can be some industry standard bus and not TCP/IP, but it should have some form of well documented interface you can use to communicate with it. With so many manufacturers and devices we can't expect manufacturers to be able to seamlessly cooperate with each other, but if they provide well documented means of communication, you can always solve it by some middleman system (i.e. Home Assistant).

[@jbattermann]

Quick update about this issue: Span has a beta firmware they're testing right now that addresses this issue.

[@ToothyFilms]

I've got the Span panel tied into Enphase with their junction box too. Make sure that Span's `Remote Meter Kit-Enphase` circuit is setup in the "Always On Circuits" section specified in the Settings and not just the "Backup" pages between nice to have sections. I learned the hard way when the power went out and the Span panel didn't know it had battery power to tap into. Nice... The only way to resolve was to call Span support which only after they changed something could I then put it into Settings->Always-on circuits.

[@trevorksanders]

I wonder if the newer batteries that you showed on wheels would be considered stored vs installed for the purposes of requiring the sprinkler system when over a certain capacity. I wouldn't be surprised if there is some legal loophole to slip through like that.

[@Babarudra]

great point!

[@michaelharrison1093]

This is a big concern in the industry - I suspect that this will ultimately be resolved through the insurance companies adding clauses stating that they are not responsible for pay-out if these portable battery storage systems are present inside the building or within a certain distance from the building.

[@randya9143]

I think a sprinkler system for any type of electrical is a bad idea.

[@Babarudra]

@@randya9143 they DO make fire suppression for electrical that doesn't conduct electricity...

[@randya9143]

True but it’s not a “sprinkler” system, it’s a “fire suppression system” system.

[@johnfrancis4401]

In UK it’s possible to charge up the batteries during the night (more accurately in the very early morning) using very cheap electricity [£0.07 per kWh or $0.10 per kWh] and use the electricity during the day when electricity costs £0.30 per kWh.

[@edc1569]

get givenvergy or a UK supplier that supports UK tariffs, not anker.

[@JBoy340a]

Some utilities in the US allow that, but unfortunately mine does not. Luckily it is often sunny enough to recharge the batteries from the solar.

[@johnwilson-mr6pw]

I live in the UK and you are wrong about charging batteries up in the early morning. It's from 11pm until 7am and only properties that have a once called 'white meter' installed years ago for night storage heaters have this option. There is an additional standing charge for the extra meter.

[@johnfrancis4401]

@@johnwilson-mr6pw Crumbs. Check out Octopus energy…….

[@OliverTurnerMSc]

​@@johnwilson-mr6pw No. Google EDF overnight tarrif. All you need is a smart meter

[@American_Energy]

I’m opposite on most of these decisions. I would’ve gotten two Tesla Powerwall 3s, LFP chemistry, one ecosystem, string inverter (with warranty), for less money with better specs.

[@pmbpmb5416]

Just become available in the Uk and switching from a sigenergy proposal to the 3s .

[@johnkincaide7059]

I've been the battery reuse and recycling industry for 14 years. This is a good video showing what is needed. 1) My only complaint about Lithium Ferrous Phosphate (LFP) batteries is they cost a lot to recycle. I did an estimate for the Nickel Institute of cost GREATER THAN -17.00/Kwh to recycle NMC batteries in 2023. So years down the road there it will cost you -$255.00 for 15Kwh of LFP, and factoring in inflation it will be higher in 15 years. But the size of the energy storage increases the financial pain gets more burdensome. 100KWH pack will cost -1700.00 in a car or an energy storage system.I predict that no one will be interested in paying that out of pocket. Stick to NMC for the moment. LFP may be cheaper but there is a hidden recycling fee for the consumer. And although LFP is marketed as "safer" it can burn just as well as NMC given the right conditions. . 2) The inconsistencies between evolving fire code standards that are based on Underwriter Labs (UL 1973 (energy storage), UL 9540 (grid connectivity), and UL 9540a (fire propagation). UL safety testing does not apply to EV cars. UL by itself is not law. But in the US state governments reference UL Standards for building codes and fire codes. The Fire code is revised every 5 years. 3) There is a historical basis for this divergence. It was explained to me by a person I respect, that many years ago UL and the Auto Industry made a deal, that each would not try to develop tests and standards for each other's industry. This made sense because UL tests electrical equipment. (i.e toasters) (and many other items). Automotive has electrical components, but they are in a gasoline or diesel car. 3) Now EVs are a stark reality that this deal may not make sense anymore as you said your "energy storage" system is 15Kwh but had to be under 20Kwh to avoid installing a sprinkler system while your car has 60Kwh of Lithium Ion batteries (NMC type). This a product of that old deal. 4) Imagine if you use EV Vehicle-to-Grid technology. You would have 60Kwh of battery, and now powering your home or to the grid. (Estimates are that if all cars NYC were EV's they could power the whole city for hours at a time). Eventually, safety wins, but need to reconcile old industry practices as they merge using the same new technology. John

[@esumiwa5583]

I bought the Tesla Battery system. I will be paying off a loan for 6 more years. Was it worth it? I live in Hurricane prone area and a city entergy relationship that is toxic. Blackouts happen weekly because of archaic wiring. Then there are the weeks after a hurricane with no grid power. Having the batteries for four years now: WORTH EVERY PENNY. Was it over priced 4 years ago. Yes. Is elon musk a raging idiot: yes. Regrets: none.

[@ehombane]

Did you noticed how much it is lost in storage? I am curious because in all documentaries I have seen batteries praised for efficiency against other systems like hydro. I remember well the loss for hydro, which is about a third. And I believed the myth for electricity being more efficient. But recently I had the idea to test an basic storage I mean an regular powerbank. And surprisingly, there is a 40% loss. This is a little more than the hydro. I assumed that is a cheap and bad designed gizmo. Tested a second one, nice and expensive and was precisely the same loss. OK, maybe small systems are a lot less efficient than big ones. I looked up for real info, and I did not quite found reliable data. But somewhere it was said of 70 percent efficiency. That is not so much better compared with the hydro. So, did you have some personal knowledge in this direction?

[@GeorgeWashingtonLaserMusket]

@@ehombane Sounds like you're using an inverter with a transformer which has a massive 30% inefficiency, possible other issues. Are you using copper or aluminum wire?

[@chris2884]

Actually a genius. Maybe if you compare to yourself.

[@PetraKann]

So everything is a negative disaster but you are completely satisfied. Well done mate!

[@esumiwa5583]

@@chris2884 your statement makes no sense. but dont really care what you have to say. so whatever gives you joy.

[@sophiegrisom]

I bought a 5.1 kWh EA Sun wall-mount battery (LFP, 51 VDC, 100 A-hr, $1500 w shipping). Amusing that the shipping box said "Power Wall". It looks slick next to my EG4 6000XP inverter. They suggested twice the battery (200 A-hr), but mine has been working fine, usually dropping no more than 50%. I can set the 6000XP how to charge (only from PV for me) and when to switch from PV to grid input each day (9p - 5a for me in Summer). Don't know if the battery will prove-out it's 6000 cycle claim and that would be ~20 yr life. Much less than the cost of a Tesla battery. Don't expect such high future utility payments. If such a deal, the utility would install their own battery backup.

[@dougsheldon5560]

I'm 75, I just want to outlive my lightbulbs.

[@MM-sf3rl]

😂

[@cornishcat11]

funny comment

[@emosasukefan01234]

Just dont get incandescent unless you plan on dying in less than 3000 hours

[@hawkeye2816]

I miss the old days when bulbs would burn out every couple months. Now that's a system that makes me feel my superior longevity! Honestly, it's the only thing that keeps me going these days. I live through sheer spite, just waiting for the day I can watch my LED bulb die. Damn you LED bulb! Damn you to hell!

[@SymPlayTon]

I think with modern planned obsolescence light bulbs you are safe. You will outlive all of your light bulbs. I hope you much frustration changing light bulbs that go out before you.

[@bam111965]

I put in a very similar system by Enphase and had a very similar experience. I love the system. I do wish Enphase would add the ability to plug in extra portable batteries if needed. They have the ability to plug in a generator, and electricity from a generator or a battery should be the same from an input standpoint.

[@testthewest123]

I really wait for sodium base ultra-cheap batteries! In a home, i have space, weight is no problem, but money is. Also, they could be saver as well, if I understand correctly.

[@jimmurphy5355]

Like Matt said, if you are handy and willing to build a DIY system, you can put together a system that costs far less than the commercial offerings. LFP cells ordered directly from China and delivered to you are well under $100 per kWh now. 20 kWH, $2,000. But then you need to mount, connect, protect (BMS, breakers, fuses, wiring etc.) But even with all that, the cost for 20kWh would be under $3,000. Then you need to figure out on your own what inverters to use, how to manage them etc. ~$1,000 for 6 kW of inverter capacity if you are OK with un-listed Chinese units. And of course, all of this would have to be under the radar of your local building inspector. I built a system and put it in a detached carport, away from my house or my neighbors. It is "AC coupled" to the permitted and professionally installed rooftop solar on my house. Most days I use it to load level my electrical use. Midday solar, which is far in excess of my usage, is stored in the battery, and used to power my house from 3PM to midnight. Or, if the power is out, I can use it in off-grid mode to keep my house powered. It does not switch over automatically, I have to flip a manual changeover switch to disconnect from the grid, nor can I participate in virtual power plant programs. It's also not app controlled, and the only way to see the battery state of charge is to go to the carport and look at the BMS display. Much less slick than a commercial system. But if has all the same basic functionality, and cost ~$4,000 instead of $33,000.

[@w8stral]

They have to come out with new type of inverter as Sodium Ion batteries have GARGANTUAN voltage drop worse than old Lead Acid which no one uses anymore if they can in any way help it. The voltage drop is 6X that of LFP. Why does voltage drop matter? #1 current draw on big loads = giant voltage drop where you will blow breakers and #2 efficiency/heating problems. The poor efficiency heats the batteries and then you have to have ACTIVE COOLING as those batteries shutdown over 45C. Sodium is not cheaper than LFP. Also, shelf life of LFP is several times greater than Sodium. Unless you live in Alaska/Russia/Canada--> Sodium is NOT for you. Sodium can technically charge below freezing, but slowly whereas LFP you have to have a battery heater and insulation.

[@lifeisneverthesame910]

in 2060

[@michaelmartin9022]

​@@w8stralThe price of LFP is also falling, Will Prowse recently reviewed (took apart and inspected, didn't just repeat their marketing) a 100ah LFP that's cheaper than some lead-acid equivalents!

[@w8stral]

@@michaelmartin9022 LFP has been cheaper than Lead acid for SEVERAL years if you have been paying attention. About 5 actually. LFP 100Ah battery has 100Ah of actual AH. Lead Acid 100Ah cells you only have ~25% useable and requires an additional 25% of energy to obtain said workable. You have to have 5 Lead Acid batteries to equal a SINGLE LFP battery and they are STILL not as good for C rate, fire hazard, cycle life(not even in sniffing distance)

[@jadan2000]

Buddy, you did the right thing! I'm here in Tampa and after the last hurricane, I was out of power for 7 days and my enphase batteries kept us in condition while everyone else in my neighborhood eithe had to leave or struggle to keep their generators running with the gas shortage.

[@chancejensen9324]

😂 I just went through that inspection here in LA County. I had to install and hard wire a smoke/heat detector less than five feet from my Enphase Batteries. And I feel you about the timing. Sometimes I wish I got the delta ultra instead of my Enphase 10T.

[@gamerzieg3211]

delta ultra are garbage

[@chancejensen9324]

@@gamerzieg3211 you’re probably talking about the SHP2.

[@JeffreyAdams-kt5gv]

Matt thank you for the well thought out review and top tier production! I would offer the following: 1) Add detailed Single Point of Failure Analysis to the discussion. In an outage having a key component break is bad news. The net is you made a good choice with your Enphase decision. The only area of concern I have with the Enphase batteries is the single comm board in each chassis which communicates with the rest of the Enphase components/gateway. I plan on stocking spares (Assuming Enphase will sell them to me). 2) I believe your municipality did you a favor at capping the capacity at 20kwh. The cost of the Enphase batteries is very high per kwh compared to the price/capacity leader - the Chevy Silverado EV 4WT. It has interesting packaging for a battery but the equivalent Enphase capacity would be $164K. The Silverado 4WT can be had for about $65K as I write this. The 240V outlet is the same as a generator. 3) The DIY mix/match setups are VERY problematic if the installer/designer is no longer available or you want to sell your home. Using the one vendor architecture is the way to go. 4) I like the EcoFlow batteries. But a 5 stack in the Delta Pro Ultra is pretty expensive itself. I plan to wait until Enphase releases the 10p battery next year. I will buy two of those along with the Silverado EV 4WT. Take care!

[@masterchinese28]

I have a plot of land that is waiting for me to build. These videos help me get ideas.

[@ecocentromx]

Matt we really like your videos, very clear and well explained. We are Enphase Platinum installers in the Yucatan Peninsula and all our clients with batteries were sooo happy to have them when Hurricane Beryl knocked out power in the region and you are absolutely right about the safety of LFP chemistry, the excellent 15yr warranty and the all-in-one app. Keep up the great content!

[@tripflycfi]

That is a very neat and tidy install of top tier products. I appreciate you exposing me to this material. I understand how some folks are concerned about the product promotion part of this but, I feel that most of us can run that through the filter that one should use during information gathering. I’m going through a new home build right now and going through the same process. Thus, I find this video worthwhile. I don’t particularly care for Enphase but am impressed with the end to end interoperability of this system. The Span panel is on my “Nice to have” list. Not sure I could swing this whole system but it’s a nice benchmark

[@ericmaclaurin8525]

If those people had filters we wouldn't hear the incessant squealing every time they wet their pants.

[@brucecampbell6133]

We have been very happy with the Enphase system (with a 10P battery) that we installed in our 63 year-old, 1400sf home going on 2-years ago. We also installed 6kW of PV at that time. We pushed forward with our installation schedule to ensure that we qualified for the California NEM-2 (Net Metering Agreement) and qualified for the CA State rebates as well as the Federal tax credits. NEM allows us to bank kWh stored on a one to one basis with a tru-up once a year. There are several additional benefits of NEM-2 over NEM-3.....I had to put the cart before the horse and design /install the new HVAC system based on modeled improvements rather than measured loads ( backwards from the best practice). We are finishing up the energy efficiency upgrade / electrification conversion this coming month and it appears my modeling/calcs were close enough to get us very close to net zero. We went from an old 3-ton forced air furnace /package-unit AC to a 1-ton inverter driven air-to-air heat pump with a mid-static head ducted indoor unit. The foundation of this kind of upgrade is improving the air-tightness and insulation of the envelop. We also have east-west orientation of the of the roof long dimension, 2-foot eaves all around and good late afternoon west facing shade.

[@luimackjohnson302]

Amazing! Thank you for sharing this video. I have "decided" to use "Redflow" an Australian design flow battery for my proposed off-grid solar photovoltaic power system for my home. Greetings from Madang, Papua New Guinea.

[@BBP_BKK]

I'm interested in their products too. (Not home use though.)

[@shawnr771]

There was some recent unpleasant happenings where you live. Has everything calmed down? Stay safe.

[@XxBloggs]

PNG is endless unpleasantness!

[@vincentbrown4926]

Thank you. This sort of first hand "my experience" information is far more useful than all the performance stats put together.

[@markg5891]

Regarding the sprinkler bit. They - those that make the regulation - do realize that water + lithium is not gonna be helpful, right? I'd argue that if you have a battery fire of any chemistry that contains lithium that you're house is gone if you try to extinguish it with water.

[@jemezname2259]

I put my solar system along with the batteries in a separate insulated shed away from the house. If it burns, so what. Its far enough from the house to keep the heat from igniting the house.

[@dalleth]

Sprinklers have two goals - Put out the fire is the obvious first. The second, and the arguably more important goal is not letting anything else catch on fire. Batteries will burn and there's very little anyone or anything can counter that energy release. But you can control where it spreads. And that's more important.

[@RowanHawkins]

​@@jemezname2259Then you wouldn't have fallen under that idiotic rule that dumps water on a battery fire. Doesn't matter the chemistry...water + electricity = bad idea.

[@n3m37h]

@@jemezname2259 I don't understand why this isnt a normal thing to do. Most firefighters won't do anything but contain the fire if they see solar pannels

[@Drcraigfreeman]

The whole permitting thing is a government run operation, thus it is not a cohesive, intelligent, well oiled start to finish process…In other words, it is a tangle of losers with zero knowledge, making rule for things they haven’t a clue about, stealing your tax dollars to impress the pee ons in the world.

[@kdkd693]

I put a similar sized system in my new all electric house. 45x440w panels and 15kW of 3 phase Fronius hybrid inverters (We don’t have net metering like MA in Western Australia so a 20kWh BYD modular LFP battery has been a good size to get through the night) - Apocalypse mode allowing solar to continue when the grid goes down (often here) was essential to me Cost to install is less in Australia than US. And red tape to install solar/battery is much simpler We always have excess, even charging the EV, so it’s a good sized system. Generation averages 60 in winter to 120+kWh per day in summer We run a heated outdoor plunge pool 365days. Rarely do we need grid energy , only during several wet cloudy days

[@Hybridog]

If I could put solar on my roof I would go with a high voltage battery like the LG Enblock S. That would be paired with the dcbel Ara DC/AC power manager/charger/inverter/everything unit. The Ara operatates at a higher voltage so it can charge cars with high voltage DC directly either fom a battery or panels without losses. It also handles V2H and V2G when you have a car that can do that. It's a very cool sytem and I hope it goes on sale in Texas soon. I beleive it is being sold in California and New York currently.

[@SnappyWasHere]

I still think buying a used Tesla model 3 and an aftermarket company making the equipment to use it as a backup battery is a better solution. I use my pickup as a battery backup, 212kwh battery would be absurd to buy in power wall batteries.

[@MtnXfreeride]

Yes, I have Subaru Solterra with a 72kw battery pack and unfortunately they don't offer any kind of inverter or reverse power options.. BUT that battery pack would power my house basics for 10 days in an outage and where power comes back in town quicker I could go in town to top off if needed and go another 5+ days. One option I looked at is something like using a 1500 watt inverter on the EV to charge and maintain a Ecoflow Delta 3... that thing only has 4kw on board but it can output 4000 watts and 8000 peak so it can handle my low emergency usage (well, oil boiler for heat and hot water, fridge, and some lights) and the car inverter could top it off throughout the day. I also just saw they make a generator specific for their battery that can generate 20kw off a grill sized propane cylinder... for how little power goes out, I could easily afford 3 propane bottles and have 60kw plus the built in 4kw yet still power a high spike well pump.

[@SnappyWasHere]

@@MtnXfreeride I’m lucky in that my truck has a 220 outlet so I just plug in my generator switch panel and done. All evs should do that

[@SnappyWasHere]

@@ckleinheksel if you can afford a power wall you can afford a garage big enough for a spare car. But using one of your daily driven cars is the goal so you don’t need an extra anything.

[@hlm34]

I am adding an EcoFlow Delta Pro Ultra with 2 batteries and smart panel 2 in a couple of weeks. I’m more interested in loss of power and vital services happening to my aging family, me included. I still work at 68 y/o and most outages occur when I am at work. I paid for mine with no financing and installation is very expensive here in CT. You get what you pay for, and the peace of mind that it’s installed and tested by a professional electrician. I can recharge the batteries with my inverter generator if the power stays out for longer periods of time, but it will recharge on its own if the grid comes back on earlier. I will see how the house usage of power will affect the battery backup time. My system will be nothing of the magnitude of the undecided household. Nice electrical planning and for-thought from the video you shot Matt. Enjoy your videos.

[@PhinAI]

I am incessantly intrigued by the subject matter you present; and you present it well. Thank you.

[@ericmaclaurin8525]

Incessantly?

[@PhinAI]

I know! I can hardly believe it, myself!

[@Paul-GrnHil]

Matt, I added the Enphase batteries to my Enphase Solar about 1.5 years ago and about 1.5 years after my solar installation. The decision for Enphase was easy once you start with their solar. The app integrates flawlessly and the utility integration for selling power here in Rhode Island is fantastic. I am getting about $2000 payback each Summer. While I too am on a 5 year program for selling battery capacity to my utility, if they offer a similar program for an additional 5 years, they will have paid for my battery system. I would like to suggest to you that you consider sharing more of your battery capacity with the utility. I let them take my battery down to 10% without issue since they won’t tap my capacity if there is risk of an outage.

[@bman3074]

i like the old intro....bring that back

[@cheeseisgreat24]

I love how every company and their kid brother is making home backup batteries now. I remember *years* ago thinking it’d be cool to have one of those Anker powerstations with 300 Wh of storage for camping at a convention. Now I can store enough to run my house on solar generation alone. Wild times we live in.

[@jeeukko]

I am Matt Ferrell, welcome to decided. This is cool. See you in the next one.

[@Fusako8]

Your system is very very similar to the one I had installed. My battery capacity is sufficient to handle 3 days of power outage, including car charging, during peak-AC time. Between the system and the high efficiency heatpumps, the electrical bill went from ~150-450 a month to $19 a month. Getting rid of the inconsistency in our electrical bills is a huge help.

[@user-to2rf1rj5v]

Tesla Powerwall is LFP.

[@pmbpmb5416]

For the latest 3 version , not the earlier .

[@RedBatteryHead]

I've seen the cost against the standard Optimizer system. And that is really some high cost. For just 2-5% gain on kWh from the PV. Simon optimizers you could have had a big save.

[@mnhtnman]

Thank you and good morning!!!

[@MenkoDany]

I think that a few dc power outlets per housing unit should be a norm. Like USB-C PD but with more power. To avoid the loss of converting DC to AC to DC again from solar to batteries etc.

[@sjwright2]

Microinverters are great in theory. In reality, their benefits are marginal compared to the latest inverters. And the downside is you're putting more stuff on the roof, exposing it to harsh weather conditions and being more difficult to service when something goes wrong.

[@JSM-bb80u]

If one panel doesn't work the whole system wouldn't produce electricity though. Also micro inverters have a warranty of 25 years compared to 10 years.

[@torginus]

My inverter comes with a 10 year warranty. I'm not concerned. Also if you want the microinverter thing, you need to wire each panel in parallel as opposed to having strings. Strings are wired separately, so if one of them goes bad, the others will still owrk. Also you cant overprovision your inverter, putting more amperage on it than it can handle, which is useful in low light condition where your system will produce closer to its theoretical limit. Since solar panels are dirt cheap, it's worth it to use a small inverter with more panels, if you've got space to put them up.

[@llN3M3515ll]

While that is all true, google the failure rate of Enphase iq7/8 micro invertors. From what I found it's an exceedingly low rate. If I remember correctly Enphase actually covers labor for warrenty replacement as well. I think the bigger draw back is micros are just more expensive, and are less efficient with batteries. Would definitely go with a central if I was designing for batteries. But if you are going with a grid tie and aren't planning on batteries, Enphase micros are a solid choice.

[@shaggydogsales]

Plus Micros require additional ac to dc conversion which is more inefficient. If you don't have any panel shading, a dc coupled system is more efficient

[@babaluto]

Disappointed the string inverters were discontinued. They were incorporated into the panels and replaced the blocking diodes. Apparently, there were code issues with fast enough grid disconnect. I have 30 kw of these panels, still going strong after seven years.

[@scottswf238]

I use Home Assistant with Enphase panels and batteries. Using Home Assistant to do load management I think it’s the way to go.

[@jiriwichern]

I'm not a fan of micro inverters mainly due to the fact most solar panel installers (both professionals and DIYers) install cheap ones without proper EMC filters and also badly lay out their DC cabling. One bad central inverter can already wreak havoc. But a bunch of micro inverters are often much worse. Many installations aren't in spec for the European EMC/EMF emissions as no-one actually measure emissions after an install and government isn't enforcing. Installation businesses have to work in cut-throat conditions to make a living, so they go for the cheapest stuff available. It makes (mainly shortwave and weak signals) radio reception almost impossible if you live near such cheaply installed panels. And good luck with neighborhood peace if you start asking questions about a bad install ...

[@WalterA-b3d]

Our solar and battery system is 100% Enphase. A rather small system of only 10 panels and two 5P batteries. When the Enphase Bidirectional EV Charger is available we will add it. Then our Nissan Leaf will add another 55kW of battery backup. The main reason we spent the money for adding batteries is to have power during outages. Very pleased with what we had installed. We produce enough extra electric power that under our CA NEM2 program our household has not spent money for electricity in the last 1.5 years. Even get a minor check sent to us at our true up date.

[@danielcarroll3358]

I have 11 panels and no (so far) batteries. I'm also under NEM 2.0 and got a few hundred dollars for the year. But I live near SF Bay so AC isn't needed often. Overproduced 2 MW-hr last year.

[@wighty]

The bidirectional charging is the main reason I haven't purchased a home battery yet... we have solar and 2 EVs that we want to be able to utilize if needed, with a relatively smallish home battery that can run for at least a few hours/cover us for brown outs.

[@o751106]

Gm!

[@steveknight878]

It's true that having several inverters removes a single point of failure - but of course it also means that you increase the probability that one or more inverters fail.

[@ericmaclaurin8525]

Baking in a 10% loss and thinking it doesn't matter because you just got 10% more panels sounds bad to me.

[@blcstriker9052]

At the end of the day it's just an efficiency calculation. Depending on your viewpoint, solar panels lose an overwhelming majority of the energy that the sun puts into them. He said at the start that he considered it as acceptable for his setup for the sake of redundancy.

[@autobootpiloot]

All these inverters and electronics have a standby loss too. Everything combined is a easy 100w standby loss. That’s a 100w for every second of the year and that adds up big time. The most I heard personally is a 5500kwh standby loss a year for a 30kwh battery pack with necessary electronics, but that was extreme. So there is standby loss, efficiency loss when the batteries are charging and a loss when they are discharging. And of course a loss in converting the solar power to ac, but that’s a invisible loss. Everything else is a loss of power that could go into the grid and be used by someone else. I do not see environmental benefits from this at all. I highly doubt there are financial benefits. I would argue a natural gas backup generator would be better in literally every aspect, including the environment.

[@TheUweRoss]

@@autobootpiloot I have three Enphase 5P batteries configured in "full backup" mode. Their combined standby loss averages right around 900 Wh per day. Call it about 325 kWh per year. I find that entirely acceptable for what is effectively 15 kWh of online UPS capacity.

[@dmcarstensen]

When the grid goes down, so does my solar to prevent back-feeding, which makes sense. I'd like to have a small modular system that my solar can still feed into when the grid is down so I have critical needs met. I don't need anything so large as to power my whole house but making sure I have some lights, fridge, and freezer going while I cook outside on the bbq would be nice.

[@Jeremy-ux2cq]

Enphase allows a microgrid with sunlight-only power with the controller. stops back feed, but allows your panels to power your house or critical loads with a load controller

[@sandrahiltz]

I hate how ridiculous Massachusetts regulations make stuff like that, they are all in on being carbon neutral, but make it as hard as possible to actually make any of the changes to to reduce your carbon footprint, it's so counterproductive.

[@billwatkins8227]

Boy you’ve got that right. It took me almost two years to get my system installed. National Grid and the state regulators were tough to deal with.

[@TheKillerman3333]

the thing with modular systems that people probably dont realize is "you can technically use them for long distance bike rides" to explain, you can charge them at home, then turn around, and put one in a backpack and have enough juice to go on an epic that spans america, and then come home and probably still have power left over.

[@NeilBlanchard]

ANY battery is *far* less prone to fire than ICE vehicles. A sprinkler system for everybody who has an ICE vehicle - makes far more sense!

[@klaneos666]

After doing a solar deep-dive, we opted for the Enphase micro inverters on each panel. The system redundancy makes sense considering I’ve seen plenitudes of main inverters fail in my career, and the short warranty life seems to only just pass. Manufacturers don’t want anything to do with the customer after this period. The Enphase battery redundancy also makes sense. Apart from price, the system quality, reliability and customer service, makes it a top tier home energy generation product

[@edc1569]

Please disclose how much they are paying you, thanks.

[@lavoltare6307]

No way i would fork out that much for a Li battery system, far superior and cheaper tech out there. Luv your show Matt.

[@ahmedbro94]

Graphene battery's are the future! I'm surprised not more people come to this realisation.

[@SodiumEx]

Correct. But still couple years or more away

[@francois7355]

In the meantime we had an LFP battery breakthrough that was better than lithium ion. Then now we have solid state which will be available on market next year.

[@billyjones6626]

Maybe work on proper grammar prior to predicting the future.

[@ericmaclaurin8525]

I'll take the field for $10,000.

[@HansSchulze]

Manufacturing is nuts expensive for now

[@davidparker6944]

I installed an Enphase solar PV system last year on my house in Pismo Beach CA consisting of 16 REC modules (6.48 kW dc). This year I installed an Enphase battery system using 3 Enphase 5P batteries as a partial home backup and configured for max Savings mode. I have not gotten PTO yet but it looks like it should work well.

[@josephjones4293]

20k for the random “if we lose power” is such a weird investment… Like hyper inflated medical insurance… but instead of not paying for your broken arm, you get to charge your phone.

[@AntonOfTheWoods]

20k to not give money to the power company, and have power when there is an outage on the grid. Sending back power to the grid from rooftop solar is quickly becoming not worth it at all, particularly as grid-scale solar ramps up and the grid gets oversupplied just when you have energy to give (on a sunny day when you are at work)

[@ericmaclaurin8525]

I hope you're a child who just hasn't started the math portion of your education yet.

[@anthonymalovrh2912]

I have had 2 different systems over the last 16 years. Never had a panel go bad - both systems using string inverters - SMA America models.

[@hyfy-tr2jy]

$23,000 in battery costs....that is almost 5 years of electricity cost at a $400 per month utility cost average.... It would be longer if your bills are lower and handing him the tax credit. Add it the solar panel ROI and the total ROI on this is just unfeasible. Why not just pump ALL your extra electricity to the grid and take the credit and scrap the batteries? These whole "zero emission" home settups to me fall in alignment with the same people who buy a CyberTruck.... its all just a status symbol and not about practicality

[@ericmaclaurin8525]

They offer free math classes and medication for ADHD if you ever get tired of being unhappy and confused.

[@marcpym5251]

he mentioned he wanted an emergency backup system for outages in the winter months.

[@paul1979uk2000]

@@marcpym5251 Do power cuts happen enough times for it to be an issue in the US? Where I live in the UK, power cuts are very rare, maybe once every year or two, and in most cases, it's a blink of an eye power cut, which if you have a small battery system, would be more than enough to keep things running, the longest power cut I think I've ever seen over 45 years is around 40 mins, which ironically is around the same time frame I've seen for my internet connection.

[@fieryblazeking639]

@@paul1979uk2000 ya, because in the US there are a lot of suburban or rural communities so there’s a lot of space between homes. The more rural you are, the higher the chance it is you’ll get an outage every year. Also he lives in the north east which is pretty known for big snow and rain storms.

[@johnnyv9024]

​@@paul1979uk2000depends on where you live in the US. Our home is covered by an amazing public utility and outages are rare, but lots of other power companies have issues keeping the lights on. In our neighbor state, the for-profit power company does almost no maintenance, so outages are disturbingly common. They don't do anything till it breaks :'(

[@Neeboopsh]

the great thing about having a business making videos about technologies etc, is you can write some amount of projects off as business expenses to create content.

[@kyesickhead7008]

Is the channel just product propaganda now?

[@boba2783]

Everyone has a price

[@kiddy1992]

It's the American way. When everything is a lease or a loan, free and/or subsediced stuff is super enticing.

[@cp37373]

He’s pretty much lost in all integrity.

[@NazimUdDin-tg8jg]

Yes indeed , everyone has a prize.

[@ShaneMcGrath.]

Most of youtube now, All monetised!

[@scottbalak7123]

I also live in MA (different utility) and basically went the total opposite approach. DIY 10kw (13kw panel) grid tied string inverter (100% net metering). I looked into batteries, but my utility didn't participate in the smart grid program so they made little sense for my application. Instead I bought a Ford Lightning ER (130kwh) and installed a critical loads panel for grid outage risk mitigation. Just goes to show you there are many ways to skin a cat and "your mileage will vary" is so true in solar. My paperwork for approval took ~3-4wks, but another data point is my employer has been waiting >8 months to get approval to add 4 more EV chargers. I know everybody likes the microinverters, but IMHO this only makes sense with multi-pitch roofs requiring small arrays. Not only does the cost add up quickly, the proposition (relative to string) becomes even worse for large (>10kw) total panel count. By my count your total system has 75 micro inverters between the panels and the batteries. I would be concerned that probability will eventually catch up with you and again.....(your mileage will vary)......there's a good debate on single source of failure vs. redundancy risk tolerance stack up.

[@bigjonbird1]

I coincidentally installed the EXACT system you have at my house in December 2023. Four Enphase 5p batteries, 60 sixty 400w panels, iq8plus micro inverters. I am way overproducing, by choice though. Enphase actually emailed me and said their calculations show that self consumption is the most cost effective even if on a TOU plan.

[@nuevision8]

Also you could just sell your excess generation to your neighbors and you & them are not paying any taxes or grid development costs to the utility companies or the government. You are now your own electric co-op if you want to be. This is true liberty and freedom.

[@aliyada]

I did buy into the Delta Pro Ultra Ecosystem, and expanding to a second 6kWh battery was very easy plug and play. No permits, and it only cost $800 to have the smart home panel installed within a single day. Admittedly, I'm not expecting a return on investment beyond having some emergency power in an outage. Recent winter storms made that requirement very clear. I am also in a condo, so a traditional generator was not an option. Sadly, solar is also not an option. All in all, with TOU rates, I am expecting to save ~$250/year with the setup. Not the priority, but certainly useful!

[@PeterBaumgart1a]

Another nonsensical code requirement in my area is that if you have multiple batteries they need to be separated by some number of feet, like 3 or 6, forgot the exact number, but independently of battery size (!). Anyway, that would probably open an interesting discussion about the stackable solution 😅!

[@sgtkabukiman9411]

Here in Australia the power companies are talking about charging people with solar for exporting the excess power to the grid. Apparently, they failed to account for the amount of power being exported and have to upgrade the grids to handle it.

[@francisdebriey3609]

The Ecoflow PowerOcean DC Fit is the most intelligent innovation since a long time ! A it uses CATL LFP with 6000 cycles

[@kentw.england2305]

I'm excited by the "hybrid" inverter systems coming out that allow the inverter and batteries to be installed outside next to my panel. It's a no-brainer when the battery prices drop 50%

[@NerfThisBoardGames]

New Anker and Evoflow stations seem like the better bang for buck I'm trying to hold out for these eventual sodium batteries

[@Snerdles]

You are going to be waiting many years for competitive sodium batteries. Their energy density is incredibly low so far. If you look at a company like Natron energy that sells a server rack 1U sodium battery for data centers it only has about 0.27kWh of energy available. That means in 4U (like an EG4 server rack battery) it would be 1kWh. The EG4 is 5... For home storage it makes far more sense just to use LiFePo and if you are concerned about fires just put them in an out building if possible.

[@NerfThisBoardGames]

@@Snerdles fair counter point, I wouldn't hate a 3kw system that's refrigerator sized but completely fire "proof" I.. getting fresh battery estimates anyway given I'm also in MA, and that 7 year old is pretty fabulous

[@mw5200]

We're in the process of installing a Tesla PW3 with 12kW of solar in Southern AZ. So far we've been in "Technical Review" by the utility for 2 months because the project included energy storage. AZ has become unfriendly to new solar installations in general but apparently more so to energy storage projects.

[@CerebralOrigami]

I am living in a truck camper and towing a 24'X8-1/2' box trailer. I want to install solar on the roof of the trailer and mount the battery packs under the trailer, between the frame, wial a steel skid plate to protect the batteries. The problem would be finding battery packs that can be submerged for when I drive through high water. The trailer contains a miniature woodshop so there would be period of high draw for 30 amp tools and the 30 amp AC. I am a snow bird so I am always where it is sunny and as I am mobile I can drive to where the prices for solar components/installation would be the cheapest.

[@dc1544]

My neighborhood was without power for 2 days. 70mph winds took down a lot of trees which took down a lot of powerlines. I was the only with lights on. No internet as it also took that down also. I just watched movies on my 4k player. Still no power from grid but internet is up and with my solar/battery I have I don't care when the grid is back up. I have plenty of battery storage and its sunny again.

[@phonetech1922]

Really nice presentation Matt!! I've had an SMA string inverter with just under 7K of Sharp solar panels for about 14 years. I've added 10 additional Sharp panels using Enphase M190s andM250 inverters. The system provides most of my yearly KWH needs. I also have some battery backup, 11 KWH of LifePo4 DIY battery feeding a 6KW inverter for most of the house loads. I've been considering expanding the storage and thought about going all Enphase but the new battery does seem outdated already. I would like to have all Enphase inverters though since I do have morning and afternoon shading. A couple of V3 Tesla power walls may replace my current setup with expandability. I also have a model Y so charging during the day when the utility CO is paying me .08/kwh makes sense . We do have TOU here in SE Michigan so more battery does make sense. Thanks for all your hard work with these productions.

[@d4mdcykey]

Endless thanks for your hard work and dedication, Matt, your pragmatic, logical approach to emerging tech is a HUGE bonus to many of us out here.

[@farmerpete6274]

I have recently installed a Powerwall 2 and solar, and have been virtually off-grid for 2 months now, this despite the rubbish weather we have in the UK. Whilst I would like an additional PW2 battery, I'm hoping that the new generation of small EVs from Tesla will be able to act as a battery back-up, and yes, I'm waiting patiently for them to be available! (we do not have the choices you have in America, nor can we export over 5kWh to the grid)

[@rkm237]

This permitting issue (as someone that lived in Mass for 20 years) is a perfect thing to bring up to your state gov... if you have a full description of how the permitting worked, and illogic of the fact that the Tesla can park there no problem... and perhaps an idea of a more logical permitting framework, I bet Mass is interested to make that happen. Big power installations are normally done by big power companies who plan things out decades in advance, so for them, 2 months is mega-expedited, ha! But I feel your pain.

[@M1911jln]

You don’t understand MA if you think bringing up the permitting issue to the MA government could result in the regulatory burden being reduced. As an example, MA has an approved plumbing fixture roster. A plumber in MA cannot install a fixture unless that fixture has been approved by the state and is on the roster. Similarly, a general contractor doing a renovation on your home must have a certified lead tester perform a lead test on everything he installs in your home. MA is regulatory hell. In the view of MA regulators, the regulatory hoops and delays that Matt experienced are a feature, not a bug. Regulations in MA only get worse, never better.

[@rkm237]

@@M1911jln OK, you are on to me, ha!! That is why I live in FLA now, for 3.5 years. :) But seriously, I made my first permit application in MA in 1989, and that was to open a hot air balloon bungee jumping company... believe me, I've known troubles. Yes it only gets worse, but that is because the lawyers are in charge and the politicians are disconnected. They all have office hours... if you don't complain to them they NEVER hear about these problems (believe me - for them there is a different system and they don't have permitting problems). Squeaky wheel gets the oil, etc.

[@WIImotionmasher]

Those Anker modules look great to me, I'm excited about them. Very affordable and relatively simple to install. I just don't understand how the controller handles power. Like I'd never want to accidentally charge my battery with grid power.

[@HLR4th]

Our town in CA has a similar code requirement as yours does regarding batteries, but even more frustrating, requiring a special type of smoke detector that doesn’t exist! We installed our two TESLA2 Powerwalls outside- it was the only solution.

[@UnknownButlovesFood]

We have 32 REC 640w panels, with micro inverters and 10k Enphase batt. Was $52K for us in Ca.

[@evlnte]

My local inspector only cared about a missing junction box on the roof that was supposed to tie all the solar panels together before going down into my home. Tesla spent 2 weeks explaining that that box was a mistake on the plans and was unnecessary for the final layout of my panels. It was another example of ridiculous regulations enforced by ignorant inspectors who loosely follow "rules" that make no impact on the safe use of these products. Four weeks later and nothing was changed for the final inspection except for the removal of a second cut-off breaker in my garage that was not on the original design. Mind you that that second breaker would have made my system infinitely more safe by allowing me to cut the system from the grid faster then having to run outside and flip the utility-accessible cut-off! Maddening.

[@ericmaclaurin8525]

Damn inspectors inspecting and requiring every single thing on the plans is... ...Awesome. Blame Tesla for screwing up instead of the inspector or state for not spending millions training every inspector on every manufacturers system.

[@evlnte]

@@ericmaclaurin8525 The inspector first left the premises because the ladder to the roof was not ready for him to climb. He just up and left even though the Tesla employee was rushing to get it off his truck. Sorry, but these guys are just ego-driven morons.

[@snoodking1]

Also a water sprinkler system is somewhat ineffective at putting out battery fires. Most fire departments need liquid nitrogen to fight battery fires.

[@boblatkey7160]

LG Home 8. 200 amp service entrance rated switch gear with 7.5 kW inverter and 14 kWh of usable energy storage. $7,500.

[@onelilindian7137]

It would be really cool to see a house design integrating all the technologies for what you think is the right net zero cost to ease of maintenance and returns. Your videos are awesome.

[@ram64man]

the issue with the enphase iq though is they don't cover the watt range of newer pannels with over 120w now of clipping, before convergence, futher more the outlay and max capacity for larger property demands doesn';t meet many requirements, futher more there off grid gateway setup requires significant investment than typical hybrid setups, futher more its not a ups setting meaning up to 4 secs for swap offline