How This New Heat Pump is Genius

[@UndecidedMF]

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[@cristianracu]

Yes

[@grantramsay9956]

I’m still hoping you do a video on fabric ductwork… it’s been shown to save up to 40% of the energy in commercial and industrial ventilation. Huge savings globally if adopted and could significantly help us reduce our carbon footprint as a species

[@colinkulasik1128]

Great topic Matt thank you for sharing this with us

[@LVLifeguard]

Heck yes! Been looking for a heat pump that could work in the extremes of temps... we get down to -15 F in the winters and up to 100+ F in the summers... which as you say, generally is beyond or at the limit of traditional heat pumps.

[@WeBeGood06]

I want my cold side of my cascading heat pump to keep my liquid nitrogen, liquid.

[@David_Mash]

AC units should be heating our water Edit: The waste heat from when an AC or Refrigerator is running, should be routed to and recovered/stored in the hot water heater

[@aaronmccready4530]

It has been done on occasion, but it isn’t the most efficient system, as in say microwave based water heaters.

[@justincarter7954]

Wait what do you mean? my water heater has a heat pump in it

[@tedhamilton2362]

My water heater has a compressor (AO Smith) that heats the tank using the air temperature. Here in FL, the humidity in the air is 'free energy' that my compressor can exchange into the tank temperature. It runs on 120volts instead of 240volts. I can choose Efficiency, Hybrid or Just Electric.

[@peter65zzfdfh]

@@aaronmccready4530 Any form of electrical heater that isn't a heat pump is at most 100% efficient and most are almost 100%. A Heat pump is well over 100% efficient, so yes, we DO use them to heat water here, because they ARE The most efficient system.

[@egocd]

In Europe, they do already. We use air to water heat pumps, which heat water in radiators and underfloor heating to heat the home. This same system is used to heat the water in your hot water tank. Only downside is it can't be used for cooling as it isn't air to air.

[@veitforabetterworld]

Our heatpump is a normal non cascading pump using the groundwater as heat source. It has a COP of 5-6 over the year and heats our water up to 60°C and works for almost every outside temperature because the groundwater temperature doesn't fluctuate that much

[@mathuswins]

Works great until the groundwater drops like in a region near me, the heatpump of someone I know just stopped working. A deeper hole is not allowed as well :)

[@koriifaloju2051]

Yes, I’ve done something like this before for a client who wanted / had a indoor mini split but wanted a reliable source for heating in the cold Ontario winters. We did a W2A ( water to air) heat pump configuration, instead of the common A2A ( air to air ) systems which are more prone to failure under the extremes. Ground water table risk aside, it’s proven to be effective and efficient

[@mv80401]

Similarly a Ground source heat pump gets constant temperatures of 55°F where I live and the heat pump can be optimized for that input temp.

[@albex8484]

@@mathuswins in summer it needs to get heated again :). So basically you need to cool the house in the summer. So the ground becomes warmer.

[@mathuswins]

@@albex8484 only problem when there is no water in the ground anymore :-D

[@staceys1208]

In the early 2000s, a company called Hallowell International based in Maine developed a '2-stage' heat pump that did pretty much this exact thing. It had two different compressors as well as a heat recovery loop which would divert friction heat from the compressors into the refrigerant in heating mode. We had one of their systems and it performed very well, able to heat our house for about the same dollar cost as the gas furnace it replaced, which was unheard of in 2006! (We're in snow country, and it definitely gets cold here.) Unfortunately, the company didn't survive, mainly due to quality and durability issues with their control boards. Our system eventually died from a bad control board, which we couldn't replace. We ended up replacing it with a variable speed drive heat pump from Amana. Its good to see people are still tinkering with the concepts though!

[@shopshop144]

That sounds like a costly experience. Would you go cutting edge again with a small company?

[@staceys1208]

@@shopshop144 It wasn't all bad for us. The unit ran mostly fine for about 7 years, and when it was running, its performance was great. We had repeated control board failures which Hallowell replaced for free, and we had a good local installer who knew the system. I wish it had been more reliable and durable, but when the company went under, our support ended too, so it ran for another 2 years before something failed. I'm an early adopter, and I'm not afraid of new technology. I think my biggest hesitation really comes down to cost and serviceability. If I can afford it, and I know there's a way I can keep it running even if the company fails, I have a lot less hesitation to buy in.

[@nickr753]

Gosh, I can't help but read this and think what if the company had open-sourced their designs after going bankrupt -- or if their consumers had a contractual right to that IP if the company couldn't support them anymore. These days it's completely feasible to have a one-off circuit board manufactured on-demand for a reasonable price.

[@russjohnson6396]

IMHO... I believe Hallowell's "cold climate heat pump" was unsuccessful for several other reasons as well. The company spread themselves too thin, installing HPs throughout the US and Canada before the product was perfected, and couldn't afford the service calls. If they had given away 30 or so units in Bangor Maine, where they could have watched and serviced them, they would have eventually had a higher chance of success and a more mature product. The problem was that they sought funding from a number of electric utilities around the country, and had to install a couple of units in each service territory. I suspect, also, that their outdoor units might not have been able to defrost themselves during very cold conditions i.e. below minus 20F or so. The frost may have built up too thick on the outdoor coil. I did, however see them operate successfully with a COP greater than 1 at about minus 30 F.

[@janami-dharmam]

today the temp is over 42C inside and outside it is over 44C here in India. Traditional air conditioners can't handle this load- We had power blackout twice today. Two stage heat pumps must become cheaper so that it is affordable.

[@thegaminghobo4693]

My god that’s insane… Productivity must plummet in that temp sounds like hell!

[@koriifaloju2051]

@@benjiro8793well it depends I’ve lived in Canada my whole life and my clients who solely depended on A2A heat pumps had days when the system couldn’t heat the home, when outside temps were -26c to -30c BEFORE windchill, making the ambient temp more like -36c tp -44c for days on end. Those systems will eat a lot of energy and still fail to keep the home within a comfortable range of 22-26c I can speak to this factually. I am now doing projects in West Africa and the Caribbean, solving this same problem on the other side of the spectrum, and what this poster is referring to is likely the outside temp WITHOUT factoring the humidity ( which isn’t well spoken about/considered in these regions compared to North America or Europe) If he’s saying mid 40c is the outside temp, that’s is likely 50c or more when factoring humidity, which is what the A2A HP is trying to extract cooling, and well outside its operating range, worse yet if it is in a wall that exposed to afternoon sun and a cinder block wall (CMU) it will be even hotter due to solar heat gain, making it try to work harder and consuming more energy. Today it is (only) 36c where I am but the humidex reports it as 44c And my A2A HP is struggling to maintain a moderate 26c indoors, without brown-outs. Africa, the Caribbean like India and SE Asia have never considered insulation as mandatory in building codes like North America, that’s the first issue to address. First reduce the heat absorption into buildings through a external resistance (ie exterior EPS) then add mechanicals to adjust/control for interior comfort That’s what is needed, if not the temps are too hot and the grid will never be able to keep up with energy demands It’s a complex issue that’s not properly addressed on a global scale,

[@ryanpenrod1859]

Damn, stay safe

[@albex8484]

install solar.

[@ericscott3997]

Everything that I've seen, heard & read indicates that India's major issue is the electrical infrastructure is woefully inadequate for basic needs let alone for use that the US sees as comfort. But yes improved efficiencies for these heating/cooling units are great, but only when used in tandem with improved energy production & distribution.

[@chhunter]

The whole heat pump conversation (especially resistance to them) is fascinating to me because we have been using them in Virginia for decades. I'm 43 years old and every house I've ever lived in has had a heat pump. I only recently found out that heat pumps are not the norm everywhere else.

[@WillCodeForFood.1905]

Japan has been using them for many decades. Funny everyone thinks that it is a new tech.

[@oscarholman]

It’s too cold to use them reliably in Canada.

[@emmanuelgutierrez8616]

Outside of the US basically they're used everywhere else. Its one downfall for usa is that it only circulates indoor air so you need to add extra fresh air source input. But in other countries that still mostly use open windows for airflow, the mini splits work well.

[@GoatzombieBubba]

@@emmanuelgutierrez8616 All forced air systems recirculate indoor air it is not just heat pumps it is everything.

[@yolo_burrito]

@@oscarholman and there’s no reason to have a reversing valve in South Florida. A 5000w resistive element is fine for the two nights a year it’s needed.

[@naterbaternaterbater]

SOMEONE CONTACT TECHNOLOGY CONNECTIONS RIGHT NOW!!! Edit: Y'all, the running gag is that Technology Connections keeps circling back to heat pumps.

[@richardperritt]

He's a subscriber. He'll see this

[@junkerzn7312]

For sure, that would make for a great video.

[@bosstowndynamics5488]

​@@antibrevityTC did a video about how klaxon car horns used to work, he doesn't limit himself to only current technologies at all. More importantly, he's only likely to include these in a video when he finds more to talk about with refrigeration since he doesn't personally have an example of one to center a video on

[@jsncrso]

It's a cool idea, but an inverter/VFD heat pump can do nearly the same thing and it's much less complex (and cheaper) to implement.

[@privacyvalued4134]

@@bosstowndynamics5488 "I didn't buy just one of these. I bought a second one. [Plops onto desk] And a third one too. [Plops onto desk. No longer able to see him.] This isn't working."

[@BiggMo]

Complex systems are only beneficial if reliable. As a home builder that delivers around 300 homes a year… we are seeing a 38% failure rate of hybrid water heaters. We had a 0% failure rate with electric, 3% failure rate with gas and a 6% failure rate with tankless.

[@Bradimus1]

What's the cause of the failures? My understanding is they are often installed without understanding the requirements for them to be able to work correctly like in a small room or an unconditioned space that gets too cold.

[@otm646]

So put that 10 year warranty to work. If you've also had over a hundred fail, that's going to be enough to get on their corporate radar. At your volume, this is an easy fix.

[@paperburn]

Is this across all brands of just certain brands? I have been looking into this option and I keep finding conflicting reporting.

[@Vort_tm]

@@Bradimus1 Yeah, my initial reaction was 38% can’t be accurate. You’re doing something wrong.

[@dianeladico1769]

Yikes. I'm all for new, efficient technology but I'm not willing to be part of someone's post-release beta testing.

[@webx135]

I used to work on controls for cascaded refrigeration units for use in medical and scientific applications. Once you have a second stage, it's pretty crazy what kinds of temperature gradients you can have. IIRC, one of them I worked on was a -150C system. Heat pump is love. Heat pump is life.

[@matt45540]

Let us know when you get a heat pump tattoo 🤣 pump on!

[@machdeath1]

I'm a manufacturers rep for hydronic equipment, and part of what we do is design and sell Air-to-Water Heat Pump systems for radiant heating and radiant cooling. And we need this!!! Looks like it will have built-in buffer tanks, and can cool to pretty ridiculous OA temps. Depends on how big they will be....but I'm looking forward to seeing them in the future. Thank you for all the entertainment!

[@HeatPumpNicole]

All in one heat pump can. heating,cooling and hot water.isnt it?

[@oldgandy5355]

I worked for Trane for several years. Our plant built water source systems. This method solves the cold temperature problem in a different way than the units we built. Same eventual result. Our units used closed loop water supply as the heat exchanger part of the system. We built the AC unit, the customer supplied the water component. How they conditioned the water for the efficient transfer of heat was not our problem. Our systems worked, starting with 6,000 BTU room sized units, all the way up to 300,000 BTU commercial units, but they were not inexpensive to buy.

[@dus10dnd]

This is how freeze dryers work. They have to get the internal temperature down to about -40F, which is too much for a single system to handle. So you use them in tandem to create a greater difference in temperature.

[@peterbetts8740]

Yes, and use 2, 3 or 4 times as much energy to do so - those extra compressors don't come for free

[@dus10dnd]

@@peterbetts8740 Well, it takes more energy to reduce temperature down to -40F... there is no free lunch.

[@ЖивотзаЦялото]

Yes, but your freezer is exchanging temperature in your kitchen. It doesn’t use the cold temperature from outside in the winter. Therefore there is always room for improvement if it uses two different cycles. .

[@Tryp-j9d]

“You put a jar on the shelf, it lasts forever!”

[@dus10dnd]

@@ЖивотзаЦялото I said a freeze dryer. Not a freezer, like your refrigerator. The freeze dryer itself is a two-stage system... so when you are talking about it leveraging the indoor temperature as a "stage", then this would actually be three stages.

[@Ittiz]

Especially in places where it gets well below freezing regularly. I think you always need backup heat! No matter how efficient the pump is. Heat pumps are Rube Goldberg machines compared to a simple furnace. Complexity = more things to break. When do things normally break? When you're putting the most stress on them, which also happens to be when you need them the most! So, always have backup heat!

[@topgunm]

We are going for a geothermal Heat Pump (with floor heating) and passive cooling for our new house. Pretty nice as the temperature of the ground is a stable 3-4c and that means the COP is like 4 year around. Its also much more quiet than air-to-air heat pumps and does not need to "de-ice". In the summer we can use that "cold hole" to passively cool in the summer.

[@jensolsson9666]

And as added benefit. The cooling during the summer will put down heat in the hole giving a better working temperature from the hole during the winter.

[@waynesaller]

In ground system=$$$$$$$

[@topgunm]

@@waynesaller yup, but if you have the money for the upfront costs it's worth it.

[@keepthinking2666]

We use cascading systems for negative 80 Celsius. Freezes and negative 20 Celsius. It's the same principle we just taken multiple little compressors with different freons with different glide and boiling points. I'm just staging them and using the medium. From the fluid as its transfer, instead of the air outside

[@AgentOffice]

Need to call it refrigerant

[@johnculbert1927]

you know your an odd ball when you see "the prefect heat pump" and get excited. lol love your show broski.

[@UndecidedMF]

Heat pump nerds unite.

[@Xsiondu]

I'm here. Can we circle back and discuss enthalpy after we talk about the manual j and s calculators we built?

[@terrigelbaum8066]

You hit the nail on the head.

[@jefferyG499]

You should take a quick break from heat pumps and spend some time getting excited about Hooked on Phonics.

[@sarcasmo57]

I thought it said the perfect meat pump.

[@roberthigbee3260]

Thanks Matt. A cascade heat pump is just a scheme to get a heat pump to work at all in very cold climates and is not about increasing efficiency. Cascading systems can get heat out of extremely cold air, but the quantity of the heat you get (BTUs) is on the small side (i.e., super cold air does not have a lot of heat content, a very rough analogy is an alternator coil which steps up electrical voltage, but the amperage goes way down). To make the cascade trick work, you need an oversized heat pump at the coldest end of the cascade to produce a whole bunch of moderate warmth. Then the next heat pump can pump/turn that large amount of moderate warmth into the warmth you need for your house. Remember, each heat pump in the cascade costs extra money and the first cascade heat pump, being larger, costs more (need to confirm that the outfit you talked to up-sizes heat pump #1, the coldest one). Why go to all of the expense of a cascade when a ground water based heat pump works better. Extracting the heat out of 55°F ground water means a COP a bit greater than 4.0 on even the coldest days (job done). I'll bet the extra cost of the buried water coils is similar to the cost of the extra heat pumps in a cascade system (need to confirm this). A good non-cascade heat pump, like the Mitsubishi Hyper heat ductless mini-split, has a COP of 4 @ 48°F outside temp & a COP of 2 @ 5°F outside temp and can extract heat from air as cold as -13°F (-11°C), but the COP goes down to ~1 at this temp. BTW - the magic here is mostly an oversized heat exchanger. Costs - High COP only partially translates into dollars saved because the cost of electricity varies so much over the USA. My electricity costs ~17 cents per kWhr (I'm including every cost, like line transmission charges) and my separate high efficiency (95%) condensing gas boiler gas boiler runs on natural gas that currently costs ~12.7 cents per cubic foot (I'm including transmission charges too). The cost cross-over point is 47°F (i.e., cheaper to burn natl gas below 47°F outside temp). About 3 years ago, when I replaced my 25 year old just-A/C system with the Mitsubishi Hyper heat, the gas vs. heat pump cost cross-over point was ~32°F. My Mitsubishi ductless mini-split cost about 2X more than a traditional A/C-only system. I was OK with this because I got two systems in one and every room now has its own zone and I don't have to burn natl gas for about 40% of the winter when the outside temp is 47°F or warmer (min temp in my area is ~5°F). The old A/C was and the current gas boiler based heat is one giant zone for the whole house. Gas heats my hot water year round.

[@306maxievo2]

Absolutely. It sounds like a great idea, but it isn’t in practice. You’re far better off with a single heat pump in most situations where it’s not very cold most of the time, it’ll be more efficient year round which is the whole point. A COP of 2 is pretty rubbish tbh. Far better off with a system that gets 5+ most of the year and 1 when it’s really cold.

[@mikenyc1501]

We have 2 air source heat pumps, about 10 and 6 years old, on our home. We live in CT these days and oil is our primary heat source. We have consistently saved about 1/3 to 40% of our oil usage for heating, thus saving hundreds of gallons of oil each year while saving money, as the net cost of electricity is less than the oil for those BTUs. I am an engineer, and compare our oil cost * efficiency of our furnace to our heat pumps and electricity costs. It's a no brainer for saving money, and we still have the oil for days below about 30F. 25F to 40F roughly, depends on the oil price and electric price that year, is our break even point.

[@charlessalisbury4237]

thank you for the information. I to live in CT and this is one more reason to go with a heat pump

[@mikenyc1501]

@@charlessalisbury4237 just get a very large one that is good for heating or have a backup. We didn't take out our oil system. We just left it there and we just use it a lot less basically nights in January. Unfortunately you know when you get those. Really cold days here in CT. It's it really is unfortunately still better to burn the oil. I don't know about natural gas because I asked the gas company when we moved in and they're like they're not going to bring the gas line anywheres near my street let alone my home. So that's off the table for me.

[@DrewNorthup]

I'm up in Maine and did >65% of my heating last winter with a heat pump. In fact, the main reason why more of that wasn't done by the heat pump is that it can't heat the bedroom when the door is shut (1 mini-split in the primary living area). The unit was made in 2021 and is good down to -15°F, with the apparent "cross-over" temperature being around -12°F at worst. (In reality the separately controlled oil heat loop likely began to kick in around -11°F as the rooms far from the heat pump would've been hard to use otherwise.)

[@LoanwordEggcorn]

Wouldn't a ground sourced heat pump be able to do 100%, and NO fossil fuels?

[@DrewNorthup]

@@LoanwordEggcorn In most of the USA (basically excluding Alaska and the northern-most portions of the states bordering Canada) the question is less ground source vs. air source than it is one of system design. The other thing to keep in mind is your target: 100% heat pump with no backup for cost control and comfort OR a system designed to minimize costs during times of temperatures low enough to cause the heat pump to be less efficient.

[@bloepje]

This is interesting. We now have a single heat vat that contains hot (shower), mid (floor heating) and cold zones (ceiling cooling)... But a cascading heat pump would be able to keep them all smaller and seperate. You can even cascade into a Nestor (newton energy) > 100C heat store if you like hot showers and only let the individual stages run when needed.

[@LucasMachado12]

I always wonder if technology outside of the nordic countries is outdated or do we have some well kept secrets, because we simply have much better heat pumps that work very well in our very cold winters. For example this year I had one installed at home (Mitsubishi RW-35) which can keep a COP of 4 at temperatures as low as -35C (-31F). It's not a cascading heat pump, but just a regular one. A have another heat pump installed *15 years ago* which can keep a COP above 3 at -25C (-13F)...

[@michaelmartin9022]

Given the Japanese name, it was probably developed for use in Hok-"you can see Russia from the coast"-kaido

[@zapfanzapfan]

I'd drill a bore hole and go with ground source heat pump. No need to be able to extract heat from -30 C air when the ground is a constant 8 C.

[@tealkerberus748]

Bingo. Even when the ambient air outside is closer to the desired temperature than the subsoil, the much greater thermal mass of the subsoil still makes it the more efficient choice.

[@boblatkey7160]

Yeah, drill a hole for $20,000! 😂😂😂😂😂

[@petergerdes1094]

We should have an integrated modular heat pump system that is able to accept multiple heat/cooling consumers and intelligently manage the heating fluid depending on what needs heating and cooling. So you'd have one box (attached to an exterior radiator) which would have multiple hoses snaking off to every device needing heat management which would report what they needed and the unified heat pump would work out what fluid to pump where at what parts of the cycle.

[@patrickphelan4055]

I'd love to add things like thermal batteries. Take excess solar power during the day to store it for night, as heat for your modular heat pump.

[@johnhaller5851]

Tesla has proposed this idea, as they do something similar to control moving heat around to keep the people, battery, and motors at their optimum temperatures. We haven't heard more about this, which makes me wonder what downsides they have discovered. One problem with cars is that in the summer, everything needs to be cooled. Houses do need hot water, but there is a limit to how much energy can be dumped into the water heater. I suspect there's limited savings between the peak heating and peak cooling directions. In the winter, one has to heat the house and the water, in the summer, there's more heat having to leave the house than can be stored in water. This solution works best in spring and fall, when separate solutions aren't that expensive to buy or operate, and avoids the complexity of solving everything with one system.

[@paulstaluszko483]

We have those already.

[@dafunkmonster]

So when my A/C goes out, I can't wash dishes or take a shower? Lol

[@HobbesNJoe]

Rethink home heating as an energy-management system. Heat reservoirs (insulated tanks of automotive antifreeze) combined with heat sinks (cold tanks of antifreeze). The heat pump makes the fluids hot and/or cold. The fluid pumps throughout the house to the fridge, water heater, hydronic floor heating, dehumidifier, water heater, clothes dryer, etc. When the home needs to acquire or reject heat, some of the fluid loops outside to an air-air HX or ground loop.

[@kmagnussen1052]

Superheat can be addressed by an accumulator it adds volume of fluid. this is done on refrigeration systems for food service where it has to operate in the winter where returning refrigerant has a large amount of liquid with the gas. The accumulator stores the return fluid and gas mixture in a tank filling from the bottom and supplying gas from the top of the tank to the compressor. There are sensors that detect if the liquid in the tank is to high.

[@SuperS05]

Negative. A receiver is designed to hold excess refrigerant. An accumulator is to protect the compressor during variable conditions. (all heat pumps use them as well as any AC with a rotary compressor) If conditions require it, heated accumulators are used to make sure you only have vapour entering the compressor. The accumulators *only* job is to protect the compressor from liquid, proper SH control methods are still required.

[@RyuuKageDesu]

This is definitely something to keep my eye on, for when we expand the house. Right now we have window units (cut through the walls, rather than stuck in a window) in each area of the home. This has had the added benefit of individualized temperature control.

[@Wordsmiths]

Yep. No sense in heating or cooling rooms that don't need it. It's a challenge to train the kids to close the doors though!

[@RyuuKageDesu]

@@Wordsmiths They are teenage girls. they seem to think all doors should be closed, except for their parent's room.

[@jackcoats4146]

I am in TN near Nashville. Here we do get 100+ summers and a few weeks below 0 F in the winter. Our house has a heat pump but with a resistive 'heat kit'. Nothing we have, even our EVs use electricity like the Heat Kit (resistive heater that de-freezes the heat pump). We stil have people that tell us that 'heat pumps don't work below 32F' and other such drivel. When we need to upgrade our heat pump in a few years I would LOVE to have anything near affordable heat pump that really works! Heat pumps in our area tend to be 'package units' that sit outside the house that includes both 'inside' and 'outside' portions of the heat pump and our return and conditioned air ducts got to the unit that sits just outside our home, this make a compete 'hvac package' (and it sits on a small slab just outside our home, with ducts in our crawl space).

[@FalbertForester]

Tell the scoffers that "Yes, and Model T cars couldn't go faster than 25 miles per hour, too, back when!"

[@frequentlycynical642]

As we move from a fire to heat, to a heat pump, to two heat pumps, the capital costs keep increasing. And the potential for needing repairs. ("Parts that aren't there cost nothing and never go wrong." Charles F. Kettering) You can buy a lot of heat strips for the cost of a compressor and hardware needed. Nevertheless, all exciting.

[@CaedenV]

All advanced tech works this way. Higher up front costs, but larger long term efficiency that will pay off over time. Those with the capital to make the initial investment will be able to keep more of their money over time, while people have ho can't are kind of doomed with high bills which keep them from being able to progress. It's a bit brutal.

[@Awrethien]

@@CaedenV Yep all the more reason for tax credits or grants to help people catch up.

[@pierregravel-primeau702]

@@Awrethien Yes that way billionnaire can save a lot of money, meanwhile people are dying...

[@extragoode]

Maybe, in my situation I'd have to upgrade my electrical service to be able to run heat strips. That means getting the utility involved and possibly upgrading wiring to the transformer, which is buried, possibly upgrading the transformer. It could be a LOT, which is why I have propane backup for our heat pump. With a cascading heat pump it wouldn't pull as much power as heat strips, so I could run it with my existing electrical service and I could get rid of the giant propane tank in my yard. I could justify quite a bit of expense for those benefits. Hopefully this tech takes off, gets popular, and the costs come down in the next 15-20 years when I'll probably be looking for another heat pump (our current one is 2 years old).

[@extragoode]

That's exactly what I need for my next heat pump. It'd let me get rid of my propane furnace backup without upgrading our electrical service to have enough room for heat strip circuits. Our current Amana 20 SEER air source heat pump does alright down to about 5-10F, but it's running at a COP of about 1 then and in the Midwest we spend about 15-20 days a year below that. We'd probably have enough insulation to deal with one night of those temps, but it's usually for a whole week when we get those polar vortexes.

[@diatonicdelirium1743]

The main efficiency 'problem' with our heat pump is not solvable: ice on the evaporator in moist weather with temperatures of 0C to 4C. It then has to defrost every 30-40 minutes. No matter what the optimal temperature for the refrigerant is, this will happen to any unit. I was considering putting a waterproof IR mat on the wall, thus radiating heat to the unit and prevent it from icing up so quickly... but as COP is still around 3 it seems unlikely to be more efficient.

[@Froudd]

True but, like you say with temperatures in the evaporator below 4°C it will be a problem, so I don't think having -11°C or -25°C will make a difference in the freezing problem. The cascade heat pump has the advantage to be more performant at -25°C if I understand it correctly. The defreezing would probably work the same for a cascade heat pump as for a single cycle HP. I would be interested to know if all the cycle has to be reversed to defreeze the heat exchanger, or only the lowest cycle ...

[@extragoode]

@@Froudd frosting is a problem for our HP to since in the Midwest we can still have 20-30% humidity in the winter. I would expect that only the cycle that had the frosted condenser would need to be defrosted. Would the defrosting be a lot more efficient since there'd be another whole cycle to help with that would it not make much difference because it's not hard to raise the temp above 40F using the air in the house?

[@eDoc2020]

It's not solvable _cheaply._ Ground source heat pumps don't have this problem.

[@ianritchie1666]

Heat the house water and then run the output through the water to air exchanger to make winter home heating. In summer, pump house heat outside and then boost with ambient to heat house water. Sounds great for decarbonising.

[@cy9nvs]

The thing is, if the higher efficiency in those (depending on where you live) rare temperatures doesn't offset the additional cost over the lifetime of the heat pump, it really doesn't make any sense. Like you said in the end, I feel like, unless this sometimes becomes super cheap, it'll be a niche product at best, for when you live in a super cold region.

[@bosstowndynamics5488]

Yeah, single stage heat pumps are already great in most use cases and climates, and far simpler, more robust and easier to maintain

[@SuperS05]

@@bosstowndynamics5488 you're confusing the term stages with the cascade system. Staging is used to describe multiple capacity levels of a non cascaded system.

[@bosstowndynamics5488]

@@SuperS05 Fine, single loop. -Apologies for using a term that's technically incorrect if you're an industry insider but is nonetheless very easy to understand in this context- Edit re below comments, left original text for context

[@SuperS05]

@@bosstowndynamics5488 wasn't trying to pick on you. I guarantee you'd have a pretty confusing conversation absent the context of this video, especially if that conversation is with anyone in the industry. This is already a complex topic, just trying to make it easier for you to talk to others about it.

[@bosstowndynamics5488]

@@SuperS05 Yeah sorry, realised that my reply was unfairly defensive and snarky, even went to delete it but KZbin wouldn't show it after I posted it 🫤

[@alanmainwaring1830]

I live in southern Australia so min temperatures can get to about -5 degrees C . and up to 45C . My home is only about 100 square meters very poorly insulated. I have installed an INVERTER FUJITSU heat pump. The inverter technology makes all the difference and also instead of an old type thermostatic expansion valve it uses a stepper motor to get much more accurate control of changing the amount of refrigerant from liguid state to eventually gaseous state. We call these units air to air Mini splits and my system is working great. The unit is rated with COP of around 4. My unit is rated at 8000W when input power is 2000W hence the COP of 4. Now yesterday min temp was 1 deg C house temp ranged between 27C to 23C in my lounge room. I do not heat bedrooms or kitchen but even here the room temps range from 16C to 19C Yesterday the temp in the morning was 1C with 85% humidity. What happened was the evaporator unit outside iced up normally my aircon draws 1000W but for about 20 mins unit went into DE ICE mode and drew 2000W. I know power consumption because I have OFF GRID inverters with battery back up. After the deicing unit returned to normal as the day warmed up to 6degC. Yes for the climate I am in these Mini splits apparently will go down to -15C with an average COP of about 2. When I visited the UK in 2018 my cousin who is a gas engineer showed me his installations using gas boilers and hydronic systems. The thing I noticed was that in the UK they virtually heat the whole house. Your Gas is a 1/4 of the price we pay in Australia so I guess they can just use boilers. Looking at this video I was overwhelmed with the massive plumbing complexity of using these heat pump systems. The cost would be enormous . Why don't people in the UK go for using separate Mini Split units that you turn on and off or set temperatures in each room via the hand help controllers. My Minisplit cost $3000 AUS to buy and install. Thats about 2000 pounds UK for each unit, they are quiet and of course they can cool as well. When I lived in the UK in the 1960's people only heated the lounge room and maybe the Kitchen. I visited the UK in 2018 when the Beast from the East arrived yes the homes were nice and warm everywhere through the whole house. Maybe we need to just back off trying to do whole houses and have smaller modern heat pump mini splits

[@neomage2021]

Nice. I am looking at replacing my entire heating/cooling system. Just got a 15kWH solar system with tesla power walls. I live in New Mexico in the desert mountains at 6500' of elevations and it gets well below 0F and 100F. In Fact in the summer it can be 40F at night and 95F during the day.

[@peterbetts8740]

Learn and about Power and Energy first - they are significantly different things

[@neomage2021]

@@peterbetts8740 Sure... I'm an electrical engineer.

[@DUCKDUCKGOISMUCHBETTER]

They should build cascading heat pump technology into a 110/120 & 220/240 volt line of heat pump window units. When the cost comes down. Would greatly reduce installation cost & eliminate ductwork, and the inefficiency of pumping thru ductwork. Plus many houses, ours included, don't have & can't accept ductwork. So window units are the only thing possible. Also, multiple units introduce heating/cooling redundancy, which eliminates one central point of failure. You can just put fans in doorways till any failed window unit gets repaired/replaced.

[@Wordsmiths]

I would buy a window-mounted heat pump in a second, if I was confident it would be reliable, and if it were affordable. (I can afford an expensive window A/C unit, but heatpump stuff can be really expensive, and limited supply will keep the price high while the manufacturers gradually increase their production capacity... but i really really hope all that will happen soon, and is happening right now!)

[@DUCKDUCKGOISMUCHBETTER]

@@Wordsmiths There are numerous "1 way" DC inverter window heat pumps right now. But they only cool, and do not heat the house. I don't understand why the OEMs didn't just start with a full technology transfer of the DC minisplit technology into a unit that goes in the window instead of through the wall, in the first. It's something I thought of minutes after first hearing of DC minisplits about 15 years ago. There's no technical reason why window unit versions of DC minisplits didn't exist from day one. It's literally the exact same machine, in a different shape/configuration. It would be more expensive than the traditional window units of course, but mass production would bring the cost down.

[@eDoc2020]

There _are_ some window-mounted heat pumps on the market. Current ones usually have poor cold-weather heating capacity but it's better than nothing. If you have baseboard radiators providing some heat these units could provide the difference.

[@terryrogers8965]

In my neck of the woods temperatures range from -35 to +35 degrees Celsius and since there not being many heat pumps that can handle the low temps insurance companies mandate that home owners must have another source of primary heat. Flooid's cascading system definitely got my attention.

[@josephhfry]

I have often thought a cascading system using two separate heat pumps makes the most sense; especially for people with their own solar. Essentially, stage one is a heat pump that stores heat (or removes heat) from a huge thermal battery (pond, pool, sand, etc) whenever there is excess power generated by the solar array. Then another heat pump uses that battery as its source to heat or cool the home. Its a two stage cascading system, but there is a thermal storage element that allows you to maximize the value of your solar system, and avoid pushing your heat pumps out of their optimal operating range.

[@r6u356une56ney]

The biggest problem with all this "new" cutting edge technology is that its either completely unavailable to anyone that might want to get it, or even if it is available, its so expensive that only a millionaire or someone willing to take out a second mortgage on their house could afford it. More effort needs to be made on getting costs down, and making this fancy new tech something you can walk into a big box store and buy without financing, and take home and install yourself.

[@GregoryAlbright-t3p]

The tech that matt is talking about that makes heat pumps work in extra cold weather is a resistive heating element on the evaporator coil.

[@dillpickle8575]

I strongly agree! While it's cool technology, its potential means nothing until it starts being realized through affordable and realistic real-world implementation.

[@user-bj4lp3fr1o]

@@GregoryAlbright-t3p I don' think that's it. Resistive heating is not efficient.

[@staceylee4071]

High-temperature heat pumps already exist in Europe.

[@alexandruilea915]

@@staceylee4071 They do, we have one that works between -20 Celsius all the way up to 70 Celsius on intake but the efficiency is shit after the water temperature goes over 40 Celsius if outside it's bellow 0. I actually thought about having a dual heat pump system with an air to water unit that works between outside temperature and heats a small buffer up to something like 20 Celsius at which point a second heat pump starts and by pulling the 20 Celsius from the buffer heats the main tank up to about 50 Celsius.

[@VonSketcher]

Current NZ pre-trade Heat pump/refrigeration student here, I'm currently learning about the gas type being the main issue with heat pumps due to the r132a gas doing huge damage to the ozone and that there should be great need for a new refrigerant that would not do any ozone damage nor hit any workers and employers with large fines if it escapes during working on the system unlike our current refrigerant does for allowing the r132a gas to escape. Basically what I'm saying is we need a safe replacement of the refrigerant gas (R132a) that is confirmed not do any ozone damage and would be safe if there is a leak or extraction mishap should to happen.

[@tealkerberus748]

That's a really solid concern that the northern hemisphere doesn't seem to think about. And if you're designing in an earthquake zone, that's another layer of complexity in making sure none of the seals can shake loose - even if a quake hits in the middle of servicing the system.

[@SangoProductions213]

The incentives are probably the reason why the costs are so high. Just like with college, if the purchaser can get "free" government money (that was taken from you in the first place) on something, that means the market can handle a higher cost, until the price once again hits the equilibrium point where the customer is again paying the same cost as they would without government involvement.

[@jameshobbs6092]

Here! Here!

[@shawnmayo8210]

Maybe it plays a role. It'd be interesting to see the economics evaluation. College tuitions are usually subsidized by foreign students who pay full price (and likely then some).

[@DUCKDUCKGOISMUCHBETTER]

​​@@jameshobbs6092"Hear! Hear!" 😉

[@DUCKDUCKGOISMUCHBETTER]

You are exactly 100 percent correct! But of course the "L's" don't like to hear that fact. They think everyone ELSE'S money is their "free money", to subsidize anything they want.

[@DUCKDUCKGOISMUCHBETTER]

You are 100 percent correct!

[@mikegrok]

It gets to be 117f while it is raining here on the gulf coast. I am planning a rain barrel/geothermal loop to add to my existing air to air heat exchanger. The colder than air water will come off of the roof, and when it runs out it is no worse than it was. When there is water in the rain barrel (or drainage ditch in my back yard), I should have a much higher COP.

[@navajojohn9448]

Where I live I don't have heat or air conditioning nor insulation in my home I built out of interior and exterior block . The temps range from 68 degrees F to 89 degrees F. High ceilings, ceiling fans, and openings keeps it comfortable. Coming from S. Florida to the breezy coastal hills in the Caribbean I was surprised after living in A/C 11 months a year for 25 years.

[@PatrickKQ4HBD]

It's a rough life, but somebody's got to live it. Thanks for taking one for the team. 😉

[@PhilR0gers]

Probably not necessary where I live (south coast of UK). Winter temperatures rarely go below about -4.0C (+24.8F), and Air Con is not a common thing in homes over here. Our house is also very well insulated and stays fairly cool in the summer. I'm already installing a solar hot water heater for domestic hot water (not for heating), which is going to save me a huge amount of money compared with our existing electric water heater.

[@BenK12345]

yo dawg, I heard you like heat pumps...

[@petedawg]

Underrated comment!

[@KevinBarnett1]

I LOL’d

[@lpi6608]

I have an older water furnace, 4 ton and installed a ICM soft start 32 you do not hear the unit running my electric cost dropped at least a third. They are made in Syracuse NY, I think 250 each. So your system will keep on working. Plus a lot more reliable than the newer disposable units being sold today.

[@CharlieHP1]

Unfortunately based on this channel's past videos, you can never tell whether Matt is simply parroting unsupported marketing hype. I wouldn't even doubt if he was getting paid by these companies to produce the content to raise the technology's profile for investors. Matt doesn't seem to bring an independent evaluation or critical eye to any of the claims the manufacturers make. He doesn't address a single one of potential obvious downsides of having multiple heat pumps in a cascade- for example, many people will be familiar offhand that large buildings with chilled water systems usually have multiple chillers of different capacities to address varying load requirements. For example, a small output chiller, a medium, and a large, and they can be used in whatever combination to produce the required chiller output. Similarly, as long as you were undertaking the capital cost to build multiple heat pumps, is it really most efficient to run them in a "compounding"/"cascading" system, rather than running them in parallel to optimize loading? That would be my very first question, since those sorts of parallel systems already exist and are common, but it apparently didn't occur to the Undecided production team.

[@adnanarshad4713]

I 100 percent agree with you. I have stopped taking him seriously because of the issues you correctly highlighted in your comment.

[@BornTrespasser]

Thank you. I unsubbed. The investor scams are out of control

[@Gigachad-mc5qz]

You know what youre saying is literally psyop propaganda by gas companies so you keep being reliant on them

[@ryanhatrel9892]

Have any of you ever considered that the point of the videos is specifically to make people ask questions of the manufacturers? One voice is easy to ignore but thousands or millions are not so easy. The point of his videos that I’ve seen is specifically to generate curiosity and debate on products and topics. So how about you chill out on the devaluation of the content and be a better person and consumer

[@CaptainSnackbeard]

Louis Rossman recently took MKBHD to task for his fluff pieces. Anyone who reads the ad copy out loud, and never challenges corporate scammers and their claims should be run off the platform, imo

[@punditgi]

Matt never fails! Great information! 😊

[@aptreadwell]

Have r290 heat pumps reached america yet? They've been on the market in the UK for about a year and r290 is code for propane, they use that as a heat transfer medium and are said to achieve 70C, which also means they can be directly swapped out for an existing boiler. Not cascading as far as I'm aware.

[@peter65zzfdfh]

Such a wasteful way to do it. You don't want your home or even your hot water to be 70C and the bigger the difference you're trying to achieve the less efficient the system is. Replacing the ducts or using mini splits is probably half the running cost again.

[@otm646]

​@@peter65zzfdfhYou're not looking at the complete system here. R290 is a massive breakthrough because of the monoblock design. That lowers the cost of installation massively and makes it DIY friendly.

[@otm646]

The legislation has been approved but it's looking like 2025. People know what's up, it's definitely being talked about especially in monoblock form.

[@aptreadwell]

@@peter65zzfdfh very few heating systems in the uk use ducts, apparently 70C is enough to kill legionnaire's disease so they don't need an immersion heater on top to make sure it gets killed and I think older heat pumps do have them.

[@ecoworrier]

​@aptreadwell if you use a heat store instead of a water tank then the legionnaires risk goes away. The former is a water tank with a serpent coil within in. Fresh water comes in, warms up through the coil and goes out again. The water in the tank never meets the fresh and moves through quickly. If you have a hot water tank and use water directly from that tank, then yes, you have to heat the whole tank periodically to kill the bugs

[@hubgold487]

live at 7000 ft altitude, cold overnight temps, lots of snow. use electric baseboard for over thirty-three years, never a failure or repair. extremely low cost installation. no maintenance required. nearly completely silent very even heat, no drafts. Yes its more expensive for a couple of months, but not as much as most people think.

[@yukonbikerguy]

I live in the far north of Canada in the Yukon. Much of the winter is below -35C. Would require additional heating for sure. These heat pump things seem to be getting close though, very interesting. Thanks for all your videos Matt, much appreciated. Keep up the good work!

[@SuperS05]

Your situation is likely one of the very few where a cascade setup would be useful. You'd still have to try to reduce the heat loss as much as possible so you don't need an extremely large unit to provide primary heating at design temp. You'll need a sizable electric supply. If you're not on grid, it'll be far cheaper to burn fuel than to use a generator when it's cold enough to need this. (if you are using a generator, use a liquid cooled engine and pipe the water to a rad inside. You'll get roughly 2× the heat output compared to the electrical output essentially for free since it's waste heat.)

[@Froudd]

I think for this kind of situation have an air/water or air/air heat pump is not a good idea and I would look at better solution such as geothermal heat pump or the combination of ice-storage solar heat and heat pump. Even though it may be possible to have a heat pump working at these temperatures, the high temperature lift make it impossible to be very efficient. Or using an hybrid wood & heat pump solution. Some interesting long-term storage may also be worth looking at.

[@senatorhung]

@@Froudd geothermal is cost.prohibitive in the arctic due to the permafrost layer.

[@kev4241]

might need to go nuclear

[@yukonbikerguy]

@@kev4241 Wish I could set up a LFTR in my backyard! I could heat the neighborhood, lol.

[@jrb_sland]

I live in southern British Columbia, Canada. Peak outside temperature range ~ -45 to + 45 Celsius every few years. Usual range -30 C ~ +35 C, worst case, for a week or two. My concern about heat pumps is that they depend critically on a reliable electricity supply, which may be almost guaranteed in a big city like Vancouver, but my small town in the Okanagan Valley is at the end of a ~350 km power line from the main hydro dam ~300 km [by road] to the east. We usually experience at least one day-long outage every couple of years. My small home was built in 1944, has zero A/C, is heated by a small forced-air natural-gas furnace, and includes a rarely used wood-burning fireplace, so in a winter emergency I can keep my family warm, but I fear regulatory agencies banning fireplaces entirely. The City of Vancouver proposes to ban all natural gas appliances, both for cooking & heating, starting a few years from now. Imho, this reduced energy redundancy would be madness...

[@anthonylandrum63]

Thanks for sharing. My heat pump units are nearing end of life. Great to see options for replacing them.

[@dontregenza6760]

Not mentioned in the Flooid discussion are the refrigerants used in each refrigeration circuit. Cascaded HP system circuits have been discussed for many years, but the operating conditions for temperature lift vary from application to application. This would, I suspect, make it difficult and not necessarily cost effective to market specially designed systems in residential markets. For an application in a cold climate such as the Arctic (as an extreme), you need a refrigerant that has good low temperature characteristics for the low side heat pump. Or if you have a equatorial location, a refrigerant selected for those temperature extremes is needed. Similarity the cascaded second HP circuit would need to be designed for those specific conditions. Likewise, the HP compressors, piping, coils etc. need to be designed around the refrigerant operating temperature's, pressures, and chemical properties. Perhaps Flooid has conceptualized a system that will work in many North American locations at a reasonable cost. I look forward to seeing a final product that will meet these market demands. I think (i.e. my opinion....do your own research!), with the current equipment on the market, if someone wants to install a direct heat pump replacement (or new) for a conventional gas furnace/electric air conditioning installation in a typical northern US or Canada location, then a low ambient heat pump system with back up electric (or gas) would be the least initial cost alternative. Whether the economic long term payback is attractive will depend upon the location, incentives and regional cost of energy.

[@dtoften]

Cost and efficiency will determine if this pans out.

[@robertcessaro6201]

I have a radiant floor heating system that keeps our house very comfortable during fall through spring days but, as the summer temperatures keep climbing, we've been considering replacing the very efficient gas fired system (which also supplies domestic hot water) with a heat pump system. I've had a heat pump system sized and it seems that it would work for our radiant floor heating as well as the domestic hot water system. A cascading heat pump system sounds better, but it's not yet clear if it would be economic. It is something I will continue to stay abreast of. It seems likely that we will change out our present system for either a high-efficiency heat pump or a cascading heat pump some time over the next 5 to 10 years.

[@Vort_tm]

A heat pump is next on my to-do list of big projects. When I got my 1st house, the AC unit was already in terrible condition. I’ve cobbed it so it still works, but it’s a Sword of Damocles that could fall at any time… or perhaps more of a Schrodinger’s AC, whose cesium may or may not have already decayed.

[@PatrickKQ4HBD]

Whatever you do, DON'T MEASURE IT! 😂

[@NFSHeld]

Easiest way to describe it is a bucket chain on stairs. You can't lift a bucket from the ground floor to the third floor as one person, no matter where you stand, because you can only reach so far up above or down below your current level. But with multiple people all on different steps, you can lift the bucket up or pass it down, as long as the two neighboring people share a certain height where both can reach.

[@Veritablehatter]

As a MA resident with an old oil system, I would love for residential cascading heat pumps to be a reasonable option. I'd be curious as to their cost comparison to ground based geothermal systems. As always, thanks for the neat dive!

[@monkaf]

In Slovenia a lot of people get a heat pump. And now our guverment is increasing the electrisity bill by a lot. Wood is still the best option for heating a house. All other heating options are getting cheaper (even oil), only the electric is getting higher.

[@Keyan9]

I am over in Albany, so I may have to check these guys out in Mass...

[@pleappleappleap]

I'm in Albany too. I'm also interested in seeing their stuff.

[@Squeezmo]

Readily available parts is the problem. Multi stage centrifugal compressors with magnetic bearing could deliver heat transfer between stages without more moving parts. Oil viscosity is the driver for multiple machines needed. Decoupling the fluid systems between stages allows for variable heat demands/sources (DHW-Heating Combi units already do this).

[@noproblem2big337]

I have worked on ultracold freezers -80 deg C (-112 F) and they work on a cascade system...refrigeration- heat pump cascade systems are only necessary where temperatures are extreme but a much more efficient way (common in Europe) is to go with Co2 crazy COP (up to 6) and work well down to extreme temperatures but $$$

[@-JustHuman-]

I heard - 11 and went " My old heatpump goes down to minus 20 C, that's not impressive." Then I remembered that the US still uses the old measurement systems, os it's around the -25C. Still not that impressed as we have - 35 C pumps here now too, and - 25 is almost the new standard.

[@mattymattffs]

What are the -35c pumps? I'm in Canada and can't get one installed because everything available won't go past -20c

[@disposabull]

@@mattymattffs Try looking at these -22f ones Cooper & Hunter Hyper Heat Senville AURA Arctic Heat

[@-JustHuman-]

@@mattymattffs I know that Mitsubishi LN35 Hero goes down to -35c. Don't know if it's named the same in Canada as in the Nordic countries. But I have seen there are several others too.

[@johnhaller5851]

The question is on the COP. The good thing about this system is that it maintains a COP of at least 2 at those temperatures. Traditional units struggle to maintain a COP of 1, which puts a big strain on the electrical system.

[@chrisbuhler3686]

@-justhuman- Do those pumps also have a way of heating below -35C? I live in a cooler part of Canada where we commonly get several days below -35C, and I have shied away from heat pumps because I assume the existing options need separate backup system. I’m curious how well they manage their backup systems when it drops below -35 or -40. Do you have experience with that?

[@davestagner]

Definitely paying attention to this! We live in Minnesota, where -20f is not unheard of and -10f happens several times each winter. This could give us a heat pump that is highly efficient even in our coldest weather.

[@walterhiegel3020]

I would be interested but 1. Getting an hvac guy to install and maintain it would be difficult at best. 2. A DIY system is out as well. (cost to be a certified hvac and all the tools to work on it). 3. Parts availability would be a consideration. 4. The changing coolant requirements of the EPA for the next several years makes it a tough decision on the purchase a new system mainly because of coolant availability concerns. 5. coat vs payback in terms of years. What would it be? 6. if the systems last more than 20 years coil cleaning becomes key. Are the systems easy to access for cleaning?

[@matt45540]

I mean I have the same problem with a geothermal system. And honestly even getting an HVAC tech isn't easy. This is technology that's not even out yet and everyday use they're just starting to use it in this application meaning it'll be years before it's installed with any sort of regularity.

[@stevenmead434]

I really think it would be cool to have a home heat pump that has lines that bring hot to things like clothes dryers, water heaters, home heaters and respectively bring cold to Air conditioners, refrigerators, and freezers.

[@thedave1771]

Absolutely. I get borderline angry when I walk by my dryer vent dumping heat outside that I literally just bought while the furnace is 10’ away burning fossil fuels to heat the rest of the house. Dumping dryer heat into water seems extra smart to me, given that I’ll need warm water for the next load of laundry (or to replenish the tank’s heat from the load that’s now in the dryer). The tech is close with multi-headed systems that can heat or cool each head separately, exchanging heat whenever opposite loads are requested and only generating or externally dumping when genuinely needed.

[@PatrickKQ4HBD]

How about an insulated cistern of 1-10k gallons under your house, and then ground source heat pump everything off of that? Not nearly as elegant, but can you imagine how complicated and expensive it would be to put ALL of those functions into one device? I prefer to have them separated.

[@peterbetts8740]

Investigate 'copper pipe' Sometimes you can use 'plastic pipe' instead

[@Froudd]

I have heard of studies of having heat and cold network in a house; in terms of exergy loss and energy efficiency it is a good idea if energy storage is used (often the devices are not used at the same time). However, I think that the construction cost is much higher than the energy cost saving and that is without taking all the limitation (leakage risk of the networks, fixed location of any devices using heat or cold, etc.)

[@tim3172]

@@thedave1771 Just buy a heat pump washer/dryer like the GE Ultrafast or the LG WashCombo.

[@ToyotaKTM]

What are the working fluids for these? I'm guessing that they use at least two different refrigerants. There have been many refrigerants phased out. If one of the refrigerants is phased out, the whole system is useless.

[@joshentheosparks7492]

Glaring problem with cascading heat pumps: there are only a handful of technicians that can service the system in Massachusetts, and they all work at Thermo Fisher and Shon's.

[@tim3172]

Doesn't... every new technology only have a handful of technicians at the startup stages? You know that HVAC training is a thing, right?

[@matt45540]

Everything on this channel is always cutting edge. There's not many people doing anything he talks about. There's not a lot of electric car repair shops either

[@polygaryd]

12:05, yeah so I have an 8 head ductless heat pump system with 1 4ton condenser outside (aka non cascading) cooling my home in AZ , its definitely over 115 daily here in July and august, like today was. My heat pump works just fine to cool my house down. So when you say "flat out wont work" is false af.

[@jameyehrman8163]

Awesome video - I am totally geeking out on this heat pump!

[@MichaelHBallard]

Me too!!

[@WernerKlaus-q2k]

Hi, we are heating our building with two heat pumps in row; the first one is placed in our server and pv inverter room which was heating up to over 30° C without the heat pump, the socond heat pump is placed outside. The heat pump inside the server room is running with COP of 12 to 13 most of the time and lifts the water temperature to 29° C. The heat pump outside the house is only switching on, when a higher temp then 29° is necessary to heat the building, what happens from 3° celsius and lower. Because the external heat pump is getting pre heated water from the inside heat pump, it doesn't need to lift the temperature as much as what would be necessary without the internal heat pump, so it can run with a much higher efficiency and also it does not need to get defrosted so often as when it would be used alone. So a much higher COP on bove heat pumps can be realized - even with two standard heat pumps - each around 2000 USD. With this system we reduced our heating costs to nearly 50% then the years before using cng. I hope my hints help other people to optimize there house heating with two cheap heat pumps instead of buying one expensive. (we use a third heat pump to make warm water, preheated by a solar system)

[@ronm6585]

Thanks for sharing Matt. 👍🏻

[@medman36]

I would be interested. In this case the biggest limiting factor is space. I simply do not have the space to put this. Not every home has the space for such a big bix. To make it more remorltely interesting the device for home has to be at least 2-3 times smaller than demoed in the lab demo video. Minitirization will likelymean more expensive as itbneeds more specialized parts, but I think it will be necessary for the bigger mainstream market, even when they're thinking of going international for the home market.

[@jimsummers487]

NYC uses the hot air radiating off DJT to heat Manhattan all winter long

[@rmc-xp6ss]

The newer heat pumps use variable speed compressors to "overspeed" the compressor to increase refrigerant head pressure to extract more heat. Mitsubishi has had a Hyper heat unit in Canada that will heat to -20F outside air for years. Lots of less moving parts than a cascading system.

[@huntersprouls1632]

The main problem with heat pumps is that cost savings on your energy bill won't justify the cost of the system. Especially if something breaks outside of warranty. I think the biggest thing is that manufacturers need to get the price down for heat pump systems to truly justify buying a heat pump

[@boblatkey7160]

Or you could try California where your electric rates are $.40 per kilowatt hour and then the math might play out just fine!. 😂😂

[@Superbus753]

Well we run a system where we have solar warm water on the roof and a heatpump with 3 drilled holes to use the heat of earth during winter. (I think its already nearly 10 years that we use it and its great)

[@Sparky400]

Can you add some annotations though the video with celsius conversion? You have some later in the video but not in the middle and earlier bits.

[@UndecidedMF]

Shoot! Sorry ... we can't add that to video after the fact (the way KZbin works). We're usually pretty good about providing both, but completely forgot for that section. I can add some corrections in the description, which will kind of address it.

[@jsbrads1]

But when he said -40 F… it’s the same for C 😅

[@NearCry91]

Ballpark is subtract 30 and divide by 2. The actual formula is subtract 32 and divide by 1.8.

[@floorpizza8074]

Hey Matt, I just wanted to say thank you for taking the time to add your own captions to your videos. KZbin's auto caption feature is borderline broken, and for those of us with a hearing impairment, it's quite frustrating to watch auto-captioned videos. I have to have the video volume cranked up quite high (I wear headphones so I'm not blasting out the house). When massive volume swings happen in videos, you can imagine the discomfort. You take the time to do a volume normalization pass to keep the volume consistent through the entire video. Again, this extra touch does not go unnoticed nor unappreciated! The production quality of your videos is definitely professional level. Thank you for going the extra mile.

[@bonaldisillico]

Congratulations on including degrees Celsius. (The US is "inching" its way towards the SI system that the rest of the world uses.) But rounding the 'C figures, converted from 'F to whole numbers (e.g. 40 rather than 40.3) will make a simpler and clearer presentation. (Bear in mind that most of the figures provided in 'F will be plus or minus some wiggle room anyway so rounding is perfectly valid!)

[@lastresort1460]

tankless water heater analogy - very cold water comes in through the inlet - the heat exchanger can only raise the temperature so much Unless you have a very large exchanger ..so if you had a second tankless water heater connected to the first now this one can take the warmer water and heat it even more...learned this working in the bush camps we would take creek water and pump it through a water heater could only get the water warm depending on the temperature of the creek water never had a hot shower just warm..

[@skedran]

Makes me sad, in Minnesota can get below -40C/F on freak days so it still doesnt work

[@pierregravel-primeau702]

Do the math! Usually it is one or 2 days per multiple years. So you can used inefficient technology 1/700 part of the time... That's why Al Gore tackle on climate change was so great... It was not too late in the 2000 to build a better society... Now we ask ourseft if putting children in cages is Obama's or Trump's fault... Meanwhile it continues...

[@charleshill7184]

Insulation is king. Keep in mind, the better your insulation the longer it'll take for those cold outside temps to impact your warm inside. If you had your house warmed to 68 degrees F on Day 1 and the temps dropped to 40F below overnight, how long would it have to stay there for your house to get cold? The better the insulation, the longer it'll take -- and the less work a heat pump will have to do.

[@flowerpt]

Ground source for Minnesota.

[@tim3172]

Yeah those 1.3 days/year where you have to use resistive to assist will completely cancel out the other 90 days where you're saving money.

[@MrPizzaman09]

Installed our ground source geothermal in 1996 with a COP of about 3.2 for heating and about 30 for cooling. It eventually sprung a leak, so we put a whole new system a few years ago with a variable speed drive and much bigger field. It has a COP of about 3.4, but it probably higher since it can run at partial load 99% of the time when it's above 0 F. For my new house, I plan on doing an air source heat pump, but the COP is probably going to average around 2.5 for heating. But it will be much cheaper for the initial cost than the geothermal.

[@LawpickingLocksmith]

Ever since James Watt gave his name to Power there has been new forms of wheels. Homebuilder should stick the the 3 rules: Insulate, Invent and do your bragging last!

[@douglasburnside]

I just run three normal heat pump split a/c units (one for each wing of the house) and enough solar panels that efficiency isn't a consideration. My house is all masonry, 65 years old, and astonishingly inefficient. I just changed everything to total electric and put an unreasonable number of inexpensive solar panels and for *far* less than the cost of a Flooid cascading system my energy costs are effectively zero.

[@circuitdotlt]

The explanation was not very clear. A COP graph would have been more informative than examples given.

[@workhardforit]

My Mitsubishi Heavy Inudstries 7.7kw mini split has a COP of 4.1 and uses just 390 watts to keep my living room at 23c even when outdoor temps reach as high as 39c, even shuts down sometimes lol. It’s a big 45sqm area too.

[@amac9245]

This sounds like it can replace a hydronic boiler system for homes with in-floor heating........very exciting

[@eDoc2020]

Hydronic in-floor heating is _very_ easy for heat pumps. Radiators are _much_ more difficult to run. It sounds like this company's system can run radiators efficiently when it's cold which is exciting for retrofit applications.

[@ryanmolloy5421]

Looks like awesome tech. I'm ready to hop on the heat pump train. My house was built in 69', the furnace is from.. 69'. It's a heck of a furnace that literally will never break, but is love to snip the natty gas cord. Once I get solar panels installed it should eventually be a closed loop system.

[@flowerpt]

We need some standards with all this computerization and small companies of varying risk profiles. Imagine a vendor of your $14K system goes out of business then a logic board burns out. Oh, no! I smell a ground-source in my future with an analog control circuit, but I do hope the tech continues to advance!

[@PatrickKQ4HBD]

I like the way you think.

[@erniecolussy1705]

In the commercial HVAC world there already is standards to have pieces of equipment talk to each other. There isn't standards for the internal controls. But with the programmable controls that commercial equipment use that is that big of a problem.

[@peterbetts8740]

It's happening already with solar panels systems on folk's roofs. It ALWAYS happens when Government starts handing out Free Money - when will we *ever* learn?

[@markploof]

I’m in Michigan and I use heat pumps in finished basements along with heated a cable in the bathroom floor. There’s nothing better than that. Carrier or Mitsubishi that rate there units at -22deg. I’m looking forward to theses cascade units in our future

[@wealox]

54°C is "extreme temperatures"? Modern European heat pumps can handle up to 70°C, at operating temperatures down to -15°C. And the COP of those heat pumps also don't sound really impressive. So I don't really understand what's the big deal here.

[@joeledwards6587]

different refrigerants have quite varied properties and effective temperature ranges on the hot and cold side, so those were probably just averages. system design and the refrigerant used play a huge part here

[@dafunkmonster]

Modern European heat pumps can handle -15C to 70C with a COP over 2 throughout that range? Lol doubt.

[@cantingpython]

There is no way you think modern european heat pumps can do up to 70C. Their heat waves that cause death are at like 35C or 95F

[@4nrmike]

Highest recorded temperature on Earth is 56.7, so I think 54 would qualify as extreme.

[@eDoc2020]

@@cantingpython They heat water to high temperature and then radiators send this heat into the room.

[@robbehr8806]

Similar to a two-stage air compressor, except pumping heat, rather than air.

[@bigjimstream]

I still don't understand what the "secret sauce" is. Packaging old technology in a new way? It feels like building the system, customizing the configuration based on the climate, would be a most cost effective approach rather than trying to stuff all the components into a single box. What if I only need 1 heat pump stage but the box has 2 or 3? What if I need 4 stages but the box has less? I'm sure they are designing the "box" to fit as many environments as possible but increasing the operating envelope has to increase system cost. I think most people really don't care what goes on inside the box, they just want it to heat and cool for the least money possible. Thanks for the vid!

[@Anonofyourbusiness8565]

Cascading systems allows you to have an inefficient loop with a wider operating temperature feeding a loop with a narrow operating temperature but better performance. Exciting developments are likely to be around the control of the units, optimising the total system COP instead of the COP for a single loop.

[@bigjimstream]

@@Anonofyourbusiness8565 Yep, they said that. You don't have to put everything in one box to have an inefficient loop coupled with a more efficient one.

[@tlangdon12]

The "secret sauce" is the software that manages the compressors to very tight tolerances. AI wasn't mentioned, but there is potential for AI to optimize the operation of a cascaded system even better than a human.

[@dafunkmonster]

@@tlangdon12 AI isn't necessary. These are just PID loops.

[@anthonylipke7754]

I would think with 2 working fluids the indoor fluid would be working at a temperature that would be fine but you would want seasonal outdoor working fluids depending on the outdoor temperature or even Just parallel fluids in the same or parallel systems. You would also want to isolate the fluid from the temperatures you don't want it to see. Unless you're doing something with more temperature outputs and ranges like refrigeration and heating at multiple teperatures.

[@bjkjoseph]

Heat pumps work in cold weather, but they are expensive as hell to run most people find that out the hard way

[@peter65zzfdfh]

With a COP of 2-4 they're 1/2 to 1/4 the cost of resistant heat. The only way you get cheaper is if you have very cheap gas available, and expensive electricity. Depending on where you are that may be true, but it will always be true they're cheaper than any other electrical heat, and in many locations gas is more expensive still.

[@DeadphishyEP3]

When we installed a new AC unit, I mandated it to be a heat pump. Unfortunately it cost about 2 times more than my 93% furnace. I have solar, but it's a small house, so my roof is tapped out at 6kw.

[@otm646]

They are not expensive to run. We have all of the efficiency numbers, that's what COP is. Plus if you have access to time of day power the electricity when you need it the most is dirt cheap.

[@paperburn]

Most people do not realise that you have to buy a heat pump optimised for heating or what you say is true. When the COP drops below 1 they suck the juice like a starving baby.

[@egocd]

Only if the systems are not designed or installed correctly. In the UK, some companies are seeing COPs of 4-5, which makes it cheaper to run than our standard gas boilers.

[@johnruhnke]

Arctic Heat Pumps makes a cascading Heat Pump that is available in the USA right now. It is Air to Water and can deliver water temperatures up to 185F, Design Temperature is 167F. It is replacing boilers.

[@Ariffer]

Thank you… this video was perfect timing. I’m currently looking into replacing my 14 year old HVAC system and wanted to replace it with a heat pump. I will go look up this company.

[@davideverett7553]

One thing I'm wondering is why don't we exhaust heat transfer in to the outdoor heat pump units. Surely warmer air leaving your home would help heat pump efficiency.

[@KF-bj3ce]

Having worked in the HVAC industry for many years I realised the heat pumps versatility many years ago. I found however that governments driven by gas interest groups have reversed earlier trends of promoting heat pumps to promoting gas simply for profits. Now the same is happening with nuclear energy as it is being denied as a solution to reduce carbon in the environment. Thankfully we have people like you to pick issues and present a logical argument for and against to counter the politicians lack of education, ignorance and decade old ideology.

[@andyread4332]

With superheat , it is not the compressor which tries to maintain it to a certain degree K , it is the expansion valve. If sized correctly and functioning correctly they are very stable. The problem with high superheat and high temperature suction gas is that the compressor has little or no cooling for its electrical windings it must be kept below a certain level. That is why they will be running the lower stage at a certain condensing temp to not overload the high stage. I think a well designed geo thermal would have higher COP than what i saw on there display. Having 2 compressors and 2 seperate refrigeration systems adds lots of complexity and expense. Its more of a industrial freezer solution like Ammonia/CO2 or CO2 booster.

[@Froudd]

why well designed geo-thermal ? I am pretty sure that any geo-thermal heat pump will have a better annual COP than a cascading air heat pump.

[@jimfife6255]

Around time ~7:00, I can't tell if the pulsing pump and sine wave shown below it represent individual pulses of the pump, or the control signal that speeds or slows the pump.