Underground Lines to Sutton

The Battle Royale, involving five train companies, one bus company and the Wall of Death...
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[@brick6347]

I've been hearing whimsical rumours of expanding the trams to Sutton for years. I look forward to your 2073 video "why doesn't Sutton have a tram?"

[@Human_Herbivore]

I'm still waiting for the hover car Tomorrow's World back in the 70s, promised me would be here by now. Part of today's supply chain issues, no doubt.

[@VictoriaElizabethUK]

Imagine getting a District Line train to Brighton?? It would literally take weeks on the District Line - can you imagine how many millions of stops they'd put in and the train trundling along at 2 miles an hour.

[@ericpode6095]

And the constant breakdowns....

[@volty58]

From Southend to Brighton... The journey that takes years...

[@PokhrajRoy.]

“They didn’t commit to anything at this stage but they also didn’t say no.” - Public Infrastructure, explained.

[@thatguyfromcetialphaV]

James Hunt, the racing driver lived near Sutton station. There's a story that he crashed a family car and took the train home, hoping to avoid his parents only for them to be on the train as well.

[@roderickmain9697]

He lived (or perhaps I should say, the family lived) in the same road as my late first wife in Belmont - just south of Sutton. Only about 400m from Belmont station. Also Harry Secombe was a nearby resident and possibly Windsor Davis - whose life was nearly shortened when he stepped out in front of my car..

[@hairyairey]

​@@roderickmain9697I hope you said to him "Oh dear, how sad, never mind" 😂

[@watchmakersp9935]

And he lived on Wimbledon Common when he made his name!

[@smeghead7698]

@@roderickmain9697 Windsor Davies used to frequent the Windsor castle pub in carshalton many years back. Also used to find Phil tufnell in the littern tree pub opposite Sutton station a few times, as he lived around the corner.

[@waitingforanalibi2224]

​@@roderickmain9697 My mum had a convo with Windsor at St Hellier A&E many years ago. He was there with his grand daughter if I remember correctly.

[@customtransport2777]

The Northern Line at Sutton would definitely make for a better terminus station than Morden because that's closer to the end of London and is also a bigger place

[@jmwoods190]

You beat me to it! It'd make commuting so much more simpler for those living in SW London like myself(Worcester Park- frankly not the most commute-friendly area). Also Imagine riding the Northern line all the way from Edgeware or Barnet to Sutton- From the North end to South end on just one Tube!

[@aliksahnda]

I think that the "Wall of Death" nickname stemmed from the section from Sutton to West Sutton where the line is very steeply graded and negotiates fairly tight curves but mainly because of what were then fresh white concrete cutting walls slightly reminiscent of the Brooklands racing track. I remember working at Wimbledon Chase station back in the seventies....33p single to Holborn Viaduct and 66p peak return...35p off peak. Elevenpence for a single from Wimbledon to Wimbledon Chase (which is really Merton). In those days the line was very much in decline; cancellations were commonplace but it has recovered since being part of the Thameslink network. There were high expectations that the station at St. Helier would generate much revenue from the new LCC council estate but the station is on the fringes and buses from Rosehill to Morden tube and now the Croydon tramlink tend to cater for most residents' needs.

[@brianfretwell3886]

And at least one ex-signaler I know still calls it that.

[@watchmakersp9935]

As a local resident there has been a rumour that the former London Underground sports facilties in North Cheam ..now sold to the current Sainsbury's was purchased initially for the actual underground connection.

[@AJSAN1971]

The North Cheam sports ground originally belonged to the LGOC not the underground. It passed to LT and eventually (and briefly) to LUL before being sold off. It had a very good subsidised bar which could tell a few tales.

[@Human_Herbivore]

I've always thought that, for its size, Sutton is notoriously poor re transport.

[@mickeydodds1]

Nice stills photos of London Underground Northern Line southward extension promotional material. I've never seen them before, they are quite a find, and look to recent for 1926!

[@SW_Sarah]

as a suttoner, i've been waitng for this video for a while grat video, thanks again Jago!

[@vomgrady]

I used to live in Morden and I would walk past the South Merton station a lot but I still call it Morden South in my head which is the next station on that line. It's just one of those permanent brain farts.

[@davidf2281]

My memory of commuting into central London from Sutton for a couple of years in the early 2000s is mainly the glacial pace of the trains and what seemed like ten million stops. It was painful of a morning.

[@SpahGaming]

it is much better now, i think, I live here, and there is a train to london about twice an hour that only has a few stops that can get to london bridge / victoria within 40 minutes

[@ajs41]

I think Sutton is one of the few places in Greater London I've never visited. I do live quite near to a Sutton, but it's Sutton Coldfield.

[@royfairbrass3541]

Indeed it was called the Wall of Death because of the bit between West Sutton and Sutton. One stormy Winters day, i was driving a 4 car (EPB) unit and on departing from West Sutton, we only got halfway up the incline. The signalman "suggested" we set all the way back into Sutton Common station, and have a "run up". This i did, i took full power (wheel spinning permitting), we shot through West Sutton, hit the curve at the bottom of the incline at well over line speed, and reached the top doing 5mph, with the smell of burning metal from the spinning wheels being very noticable!

[@richardvoogd3012]

Yay Southfields! Travelled from there to Earls Court and back on a visit in 1971.

[@frglee]

Discussions about extending the District Line from Wimbledon to Sutton usually come a cropper when it comes to crossing the quadrupled main lines through Wimbledon station. Flyovers / tunnels are the usual solution to this pipedream, but would cost far too much to ever justify doing it, I suspect. Anyway, is there rush hour capacity on the District Line for such expansion nowadays? I suspect not. Another plan involved truncating the District Line at East Putney and running a new tube line from Wimbledon through East Putney following the surface alignment, then deep level tube to Chelsea, central London and points east - The 'Wimbledon - Hainault Line', which was discussed for a bit in the early 1970s after the Victoria Line had been completed. Such a route nowadays would presumably be achieved by another Crossrail plan.

[@SailorCandi]

thanks for this I live in Cheam and am absolutely baffled by the lack of underground routes here! it takes two buses to get to Mordern and its a nightmare!

[@roderickmain9697]

Nice to see the old haunts again. There was still talk of maybe connecting to the Northern line when I lived there in the 90s. Then we heard a rumour that the tram lines might be extended from East Croyden and several further suggestions (to both ideas) like taking over the Sutton to Epsom downs line were talked about. As usual, I suspect the rumour machine was way ahead of any concrete plans...which never fruited anyway. Still, given the extending ULEZ areas, some of these might yet get back on the table. Good job, Jago. Explained a lot of the history I didnt get while I was there.

[@dodgydruid]

Wimbledon itself was a very complex grouping, my late father not only had to maintain BR rule books but also as he put it somewhat unkindly, had to be rule hot on the "toy trains" as Wimbledon A was also responsible for the LT traffic, it had also inherited the panels from Wimbledon B-D making it a 2 signalman duty usually one chap focused on the mainline BR stuff and the other focused on the LT and suburban stuff and they took it in turns. On sunday duty, the lax services allowed the signalmen to attend to their other duty of making the box gleam inside, line stripped and repolished, brasswork and bells polished, kettle and teapot given a thorough cleaning being the most essential equipment in the box and paperwork all done and new weeks workings rule books sorted and signed for.

[@iankemp1131]

The District route to Sutton via Wimbledon seems very slow and circuitous and they may well have been relieved that they didn't need to build it in the cold light of day. The truncation of the Northern Line was another matter; it is a great pity that this does not continue to Morden South and Sutton as originally planned. A little surprising that this has not been tried, since the LT depot almost reaches the SR line; but the Underground lost interest in stretching its tentacles even further after WW2, and indeed has contracted (Aylesbury, Watford Junction, Ongar and the cancelled Aldenham/Bushey Heath and Alexandra Palace extensions and Mill Hill East/Edgware link). Newer tube lines have concentrated more on the central area and inner suburbs (Victoria, Jubilee).

[@highpath4776]

Its not really that much slower than say East Ham to Upminster with the station stops on that route

[@MrSmith1984]

You can thank the Green Belt for stopping the further expansion of the Underground.

[@peeky44]

​@@MrSmith1984 but not between Morden and the Sutton Loop - that's well inside the Green Belt!

[@MrSmith1984]

@@peeky44 I was mainly talking about Underground Extensions further out into the Home Counties. Of course, the unbuilt Sutton Extension is an exception to that rule. Perhaps even the only one of its kind.

[@PokhrajRoy.]

Highlight of the video: Jago saying “dirty, rotten scoundrels.”

[@hakc97again]

Good film that

[@camenbert5837]

And not Yerkes for a change...

[@mdhazeldine]

I've always thought the line to Sutton was unusually slow and windy for what is quite a big suburb of London. It surprises me that they've not tried to either extend the Northern Line beyond Morden or add a direct service to Waterloo or Victoria via Clapham Junction. It wouldn't take much infrastructure change to make it physically possible. They might have to jiggle the timetable round a bit, but it seems like a missed opportunity to me.

[@dukenukem5768]

I thought there was a direct service from Victoria via Clapham Jcn to Sutton (and beyond to Dorking), and has been for years. I think the line to Sutton you refer to is the one from Wimbledon via St Helier.

[@britishempiregamer8501]

There is a Southern train route going from Epsom to Victoria and it will stop at Sutton.

[@mdhazeldine]

@@britishempiregamer8501 It's still less direct than going via Raynes Park though

[@britishempiregamer8501]

@@mdhazeldine Raynes Park is served by SWR.

[@mdhazeldine]

@@britishempiregamer8501 I know. I'm saying it would be good for Southern if they were able to run trains direct to Victoria via Raynes Park, as it would make the service a bit quicker than going via Sutton.

[@aelfweard9242]

I have often thought that the Thameslink loop from Wimbledon through Sutton to Mitcham Junction should be converted to be part of the Croydon Tram network. With a tram every 5-10 mins I think it would see a good rise in passengers as happened to the Wimbledon to West Croydon line.

[@ricktownend9144]

Absolutely - and all the other wretched half-hourly services which make up the so-called network of south London rail services! - to think that about a hundred years ago the Underground showed that a proper network of frequent trains with good signage at interchanges, where all you needed was the well-known map, would generate lots of custom.

[@dukenukem5768]

Mitcham Junction to Sutton is part of a main line from Victoria.

[@WMD4929]

It's been agreed that the tram will be extended to Sutton, though when construction will start, I don't know. The Thameslink route was one of three options but the one chosen will run from Colliers Wood, a detour to St Helier hospital, then on to Sutton from there.

[@highpath4776]

@@dukenukem5768 they have tram-train things about these days you know

[@aelfweard9242]

@@WMD4929 Thats a shame. I wonder why a link to Colliers Wood is preferred? They could start at Morden and run the line up the London Road (A24) and join the Thameslink line at Morden South Station and continue to Sutton, if a connection to the Northern line what they hope to have. There are a number of underused lines around without clogging up the already busy roads. A link to St Helier Hospital is a nice idea, but i am not convinced that it will still be a functioning hospital by the time they get round to build the line.

[@laurencelowne8454]

There was a plan to extend the Northern Line down towards Epsom creating a station at North Cheam, but understand the war put paid to that idea.

[@simoncroft9792]

That Thameslink stock has pantographs fitted but not in use. A video about overhead vs third rail would be interesting Jago

[@ats10802b]

The pantographs are used north of Farringdon

[@markellis6413]

The railway only went to Sutton in the first place as the land owner in Carshalton, which was much bigger at the time, would not allow the railway to build on his land. This explains why Carshalton station is nowhere near the centre of Carshalton..

[@wilsonlaidlaw]

I wonder if the proposed Sutton tube line would have run past the back of Tony Hancock's putative address of 23 Railway Cuttings, East Cheam?

[@laszlokaestner5766]

Extending to Sutton would have really helped us back in the day. I remember that when we lived in Worcester Park we had to run my Grandmother to Morden in the car so that she could catch the Tube. Sutton would have been much closer.🤣

[@mickontherock1]

Excellent as always and one new to me. I used to live in Wimbledon so I found it even more of interest. Usual high level of filming and research. Thank you Jago for a riveting 8 minutes.

[@cjwoods21]

My hometown 😊 so glad you did a video about this. Sutton is often forgotten. I really wish they would just extend the tram back to sutton. Just make it easier to get around with out having to rely on buses

[@ThatScottishAtlantic57]

Great video Jago! 0:35 Love that, when you describe Sutton, you show the LBSCR Terrier! Quite fitting indeed XD

[@Blue_Alert]

I love the fact that the Mural at 5:31 is obviously a painting of a Hornby Model rather than an actual locomotive.

[@LHRairside]

Thank you for these videos from the Thameslink network, like this one and the ones you did recently on Haydon's Road and Herne Hill. I have particularly found these interesting as I am a driver with Thameslink and drive the Sutton loop route on a daily basis. For a driver this route takes 3 hours to complete, starting from St Albans to Sutton and back to St Albans again, all in one go since there's no changing ends with the way the St Helier line makes a continuous loop with the Portsmouth line, hence the name! It can be particularly tedious too where line speeds are slow and can be as low as 20mph eg South Merton to Morden South and over the many junctions. The section between Wimbledon and Sutton, trains are never very busy at all, where apart from a short period during the rush hour, only 1 or 2 people might get on or off the train at each stop. A frequent tram service servicing this section would definitely be more suited here. The "Wall of death" refers to the section between West Sutton and Sutton, where there is a curved section leading up the steep gradient to Sutton, one side of the track is lined with a tall vertical concrete wall, and the gradient was probably particular challenging with the older units that used to run on it, with the class 700 now it is absolutely not a problem. I always wondered how the Sutton Loop became a Thameslink route though. Thanks again for the videos Jago!

[@norbitonflyer5625]

I think it became a Thameslink route simply because before Thameslink was created it happened to be the Central Division route served from Holborn Viaduct. Very much a backwater then - I recall commuting from Herne Hill on Class 418 2SAP units - even though they ran in strings of four, they were very much not high density units - side corridor, downgraded first class seating, out of use toilets, and of course eight driving cabs and four brake compartmanets in an 8 car train

[@JohnDavies-cn3ro]

Had to smile at the mural depicting a Brighton 'Terrier' engine - not only has the artwork been taken from a model (look at the Hornby tension-lock coupling at the back) but it's actually of an Isle of Wight division engine - it has the island's trademark extended bunker. Well, at least the artist did use a Brighton line engine. (The one who designed the Adams Radial on the mural at Wokingham did a great job, but put the safety valve lever thewrong way round!)

[@keithlewis3557]

Been waiting for this one, thanks Jago

[@keithlewis3557]

I used to live in Sutton and have been following the stories about trains to Sutton and the link from Morden underground to loop line to Sutton… seems mad that a few hundred yards has stopped the tube expanding

[@keithlewis3557]

Hi Jago, I now live in Steeple Claydon near Verney Junction. Any thoughts of a video about the resurrection of the varsity line as East West Rail? They are laying tracks as well as building a new station at Winslow.

[@lennies_mindful_life]

Ahh my hometown, I have spend an awful lot of my life on or waiting for the 80 to/from Morden

[@highpath4776]

I think Sutton was/is my favourite Terrier class Locomotive. I have told the tale before of our two dark brown guinea pigs , which alas did not survive to grand old ages, we called them Fenchurch and Sutton due to their shading.

[@Thornaby37]

I've always loved that name "Wall of Death" for the Wimbledon to Sutton line

[@LRG246]

who would’ve thought the good old Jago would ever pay poor sutton some dear attention

[@JagoHazzard]

Wherever there is a railway, there I am.

[@lapiswake6583]

I'm hopefully doing this section tomorrow. I've ridden Wimbledon to Sutton Common, and Sutton to Wimbledon via Streatham, but not the bit between Sutton Common and Sutton, or any of the stations between Wimbledon and Sutton other than Sutton Common.

[@SireMoon]

This neatly encapsulates how history conspired to leave Sutton with amongst the worst public transport in London. No sign of it changing any time soon either

[@SecretSquirrelFun]

Under ground, over ground Wombling free The Wombles of Wimbledon Common are we Making good use of the things that we find. Like tickets to the underground - Sutton lines. 🙂🐿🌈❤️ Ah yes, the Wombles. So cute, such a good message about recycling and picking up rubbish. Such a wholesome childhood memory. That is until you remember a certain line from their theme song. (around the third verse I think) The line that goes - “We're so incredibly utterly devious Making the most of everything” 😳 Whaaaaaat?

[@MrGreatplum]

A very enjoyable tale - I had heard of the “wall of death” and now I understand why it is called thus!

[@highpath4776]

I dont think Jago showed the high concrete retaining wall down into Sutton in the cutting

[@AndrewGruffudd]

If the LSWR applied for a loam, that would account for the paucity of lines south of the river x

[@highpath4776]

thats because as Jago said they were fighting over turf

[@carolinegreenwell9086]

then, as now, they seem to have spent more time arguing than actually getting anything done

[@luisstransport]

Great video Jago

[@highpath4776]

If anyone complains about the time for trains to go north from sutton, I can confirm going south toward Portsmouth is a chuntering drag via Horsham and Arundel which is quite picturesque, if you have not been sent to sleep on the cushions, more so in the days of slam door stock.

[@highpath4776]

Speaking of bus services in Sutton there are a few changes afoot, mostly due to the new cancer centre etc at Sutton Hospital site. Generally they are a reasonable improvement , maybe less so for the bits that went beyond Croydon , but within Sutton a slight frequency increase and gaining a sunday service is a little bit helpful, though more could be done , esp reversing the frequncey cutback on the 213 to Kingston.

[@britishempiregamer8501]

Underground going to North London (High Barnet,Chesham,Amersham ..) : Easy Underground going to South London (Sutton,North Cheam,Kingston or maybe even Ewell and Chessington) : I can't man.

[@julianellis8200]

Superbly detailed research. He usual high standard of presentation.

[@GeorgeChoy]

Came here after finishing John Rogers' latest walks video, super

[@highpath4776]

Morden South Station is still north of Morden (parish church). PS I still recommend The George if you like your Harvester)

[@highpath4776]

Is Sutton at the Spa Valley finished yet ? Would nice to see a little mainline tour top and tailed with Sutton and Fenchurch from the Bluebell running around the loop etc one weekend or midweek day.

[@michellebell5092]

Thank you for the anticipated video on the line to my local station. I didn’t appreciate the story was quite as complex, i did originally think that it was simply a District Railway plan it run there line all the way from Putney to Sutton. I also knew that the original intention was that Sutton was to have been on the line all the to Portsmouth. As others have said, just imagine if the District and Northern had been extended even further??.

[@iangriffiths9840]

These plans always get sat on!

[@highpath4776]

A problem with Sutton is its linked to so many lines that every weekend it seems some kind of engineering works brings out the rail replacement buses. (or instructions to use local buses)

[@russbetts1467]

I lived in South London during the late 1960's and early 1970's. I had homes in Mitcham and Tooting Broadway and frequently used the 'Misery Line' at T'Broadway and also Collier's Wood; South Wimbledon and Morden, depending on my destination. I also used the overground from Tooting Junction, when travelling to Wimbledon, or in the other direction, to Streatham. Even back then, people were clamouring for the Northern Line to be extended from Morden down to Sutton, but as per usual, Politics scuppered that project.

[@hypercomms2001]

Memories.... Some good, some not so good.. As I turned a tale of woe into Wonder... Here I sit in "outback " Croydon....Melbourne, Australia and remember my time in Sutton.... still before my time there was actually a tram line that went through sutton, and one day hopefully they will rebuild it....

[@zetectic7968]

Between the South London tube lines & the railways then add the proposals & it is like trying to make sense out of a plate of spaghetti 😕

[@DavidJCane]

The original proposed name of "Green Lane" for what is now South Merton station was due to that then being the name of what is now Martin Way.

[@Recessio]

The Sutton loop would be far more useful if it had more frequent trains. There was a plan to double the frequency by only running trains to Blackfriars, not entering the Thameslink Core, but too many residents didn't want to lose the through connections. I'm willing to bet those same residents also don't use the stations (and all take buses to an overcrowded Northern line instead) because the trains on the loop aren't frequent enough!

[@highpath4776]

We lost the through service to Luton Airport anyway . Anyway see my other comment (which I havent posted yet)

[@shero113]

The plan was later for the Northern Line to join to the railway at Morden South and use the lines to Sutton. In fact the Northern Line does run to Morden South, just passengers can't get off there (look at a map), and you can see where the junction was suppose to be. Considering how little it would cost, but how much it would benefit passengers opening a Morden South Northern Line station should really be a no-brainer. BTW, am I the only who keeps saying 'Mordor' rather than Mordon?

[@fortheloveofzuckuss1724]

I've been waiting like forever for this video, thank you

[@c0wqu3u31at3r]

I would love to swap all our south London trains for tubes, they're so much more frequent and just generally better

[@ericpode6095]

I always thought the reason us poor so & so's in SW London (and south London in general) have so few tube lines is because the ground around here is unsuitable for tunnelling, hence most services are overground.

[@MercenaryPen]

slight distinction to be made here- the ground WAS unsuitable for tunnelling but tunnelling techniques and technology have since improved (the main barrier to tube expansion south of the river since WW2 being the cost of tunnelling rather than the nature of the soil)

[@SecretSquirrelFun]

0:32 what a great map/diagram (?). Just brilliant, I love it. Thank you for creating this video. Much appreciated. 🙂🐿🌈❤️

[@chollocks]

If it had been the Wimbledon Cheam Railway, it would have been a convenience

[@highpath4776]

I understand the Line to Epsom Downs is going to see some doubling allowing an improved service frequency at the encouragement of Sutton Council

[@peterleschinski9758]

It’s desperately needed today tbh. I travelled there and back on Saturday to go watch Leyton Orient vs Sutton United using the Thameslink from Farringdon. And it could have done with a more regular service that didn’t travel at a snails pace.thankfully the O’s won and are 1 win away from winning the league 2 championship. So it wasn’t an unpleasant experience on the ride home (at least it wasn’t for Orient fans, other commuters maybe) but for regular commuters and not joyous football supporters traveling the route route regularly. It must be such a slow tedious journey.

[@highpath4776]

Aside from the much lower population density between Wimbledon and Sutton (the area reminds me of the Hainualt Loop territory), the Underground Group and the Southern had different operating philosophies. The Underground went for frequent Core inner london services, with end branch feeders at lower frequencies (but still generally no less than every 15mins, and normally every 5), whereas the Southern tended to go for a peak service with long trains , and off peak 4 or 8 unit max and only every half hour on its limbs. Of course the Southern also didnt have a "core" that it could run through and appear out on the other side, unless one counted an theroretical routes on the West London and East London lines - which missed the west end and city, or the Thameslink Tunnel- which was never fully exploited, but if it had been, like today, would be TOO busy for the amount of trains that could be offered.

[@forecast_hinderer]

The noise from the Thameslink trains is just horrendous. Again, even thinking of just the sounds whilst you travel, I can’t wait for the commentary if Jago ever visits Japan, what with piped birdsong an’ all.

[@mattjennings4750]

So in a way the Northern line could of extended to Sutton like plans to try and extend the Trams to Morden and Sutton today

[@frglee]

There were plans for a further extension after Morden. A second deeper level Northern Line tube was even partially built under the Morden Line (and used as air raid shelters during WW2) presumably for express Northern Line services. Though nowadays capacity issues must surely be a limiting factor to any further extensions.

[@mattjennings4750]

@@frglee It definitely would be difficult moving trams along some very congested and narrow streets. You could imagine what the tube map would look like with the Northern line extension probably not a straight line like dotted line to mean express?

[@idiotinchief]

This came at just the right time today.

[@apolloc.vermouth5672]

My fantasy tube line would be Highbury & Islington to Whitstable. With the last 10 miles overground, please🤞

[@michaelt6550]

I had no idea about this tale. I was well aware of the plans to extend the line from Morden out towards Epsom but had no inkling of these shenanigans. Thank you!

[@Fabian.Gray.]

Can't believe I didn't run into you! I go there every day for school :(

[@realest2506]

My home town yooooooooo

[@mysterium368]

It seems that the Wimbledon/Sutton loop comes very close to the southern terminus of the Northern Line, but were there ever plans to connect those too (as that video here explains a plan to connect District and Northern.

[@highpath4776]

In the Morden Library Local Studies Section there is a small local 1920s directory for Merton and Morden (its small because basically in 1920 there was diddly squat of much of anything in the two places). As others have said, The Chase ( a poss hunting route ? ) that ran roughly parallel to the present day Wimbledon-Raynes Park/ Worple Road route but south thereof is now basically a footpath that extends from the Raynes Park end of Kingston Road eastwards, starting at the bend that leads to the notorious Lower Downs Road rail bridge (worth a vid on its own), is indeed in Merton , but the name Wimbledon Chase was another estate agent driven name, and I suspect with Merton Park already existing another Merton name would be confusing - we could have challenged Acton for the most number of Merton names if each route had been named with some semblance of Geographical Accuracy or Referencing (Merton East for Colliers Wood anyone ?) Anyway the directory shows the intended Northern Line with some of the planned station names, including Morden North. I think at the time the LBSC(Southern) station which had for a while been named Morden was in one of its Morden Road (Halt) Phases but I cannot recall and I lost the photo I took of the local rail transport,

[@scythal]

7:03 Yerkes would've probably been quite proud of that move... Also, it's a shame that the C&SLR never went further south... it seems Lessden perfect!

[@neiloflongbeck5705]

Having a station for the tennis club for tournament days would have been useful if passenger numbers were high enough.

[@RJE48]

This is a really good video that contains quite a few things I didn't know! I have done some research on this subject because the tube to Sutton would be a great addition! The 164 Bus between Sutton and Wimbledon calls at quite a few of the stations on the Sutton to Wimbledon Line still to this day! So here are a few bits I know about: Sutton Station has a 5th Platform! It was a bay platform simular to what West Croydon still has today. It was a terminating platform situated at the London end of Platform 1. The only remains is at the furthest end where there are still some platform edging stones in situe. Also if you notice, when a 10 car train pulls into Sutton on Platforms 1 & 2 there is still 2 carriage spaces. This is because in the 1980's you were able to catch a train direct to Bognor Regis, Chichester & Portsmouth. The line between Sutton & Belmont used to be fully double tracked and at Belmont you can see the remains of Platform 2 under the undergrowth. There is talk (if ever) the tram comes to Sutton to reinstate the second track to run beside the Sutton to Belmont Line terminate some of the trams at Platform 2 at Belmont. This will serve the new and possibly expanding Cancer Centre at the Royal Marsden Hospital. Sutton Hospital is also on the same site and there has been talk of a possible redevelopment there as well. I have heard about a proposed extention of (I believe) the Northern Line to North Cheam, the land was purchased and still is under the ownership of London Underground. If you look at Fairlands Park on the TFL Property Asset Register it is owned by London Underground Ltd. The closest tube station to North Cheam is Morden which is a 10 minute trip down the A24 away. TFL Property Asset Register tfl.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=5129c766255941d3be16a6828faa8f18 Possible Tube Station at Carshalton. I haven't found any information on this dispite spending hours looking but during a tour of the abandoned Aldwich Tube Station it was mentioned that there was a plan at one point to extend the Piccadilly Line through the Aldwich Branch South terminating at Carshalton. The section starts at about 10mins, but the Carshalton bit is mentioned around 12m 10s. kzbin.info/www/bejne/r5qlgKV_bJqcn6M North Cheam, Carshalton & Belmont are all in the London Borough of Sutton. It is worth noting that the Northern Line Depot at Morden backs onto the Sutton to Wimbledon Line just south of Morden South. The buffers on the Northern Line sidings are exactly 115 yards away from the mainline tracks! (I measured it on Google Maps!) So here is my proposal for Sutton... Instead of a tram... Lets finally get the tube to Sutton... You can see where I am going with this! So there is a section of the London Underground somewhere near Wimbledon where both tube and mainline trains can run. Of course Mainline Trains run on 750v DC whereas Tube Stock run on 630v DC. So the technology is there to have dual voltage on the Rail Network. So here is my solution: Bridge the 115 Yard gap between the Northern Line sidings and the Sutton to Wimbledon Line repurposing 2 sidings to do this. A gradiant will have to be put in and a bridge across part of the Morden Mosque Car Park to do this. The existing track will then be upgraded to be dual voltage and it will run through St Helier, Sutton Common & West Sutton. Between West Sutton and the connection to the Sutton - Cheam Line there are some substantial steep sided cuttings that a new tunnel could be dug into. This tunnel could lead into a new Underground Station situated underneath Grove Road where they planned to terminate the trams on every proposal put forward so far. There is plenty of room on the surface for an access. Below ground there could be 2 platforms, 1 terminating Bay Platform, and the other Platform continuing back above ground via the former double track to Belmont ending up terminating at Belmont Train Station Platform 2 to serve the new Cancer Centre at the Royal Marsden. By doing this we can bring the Northern Line to Sutton. I am no expert but I rekon that it will be cheaper to do this than to create a whole new tram line to Sutton from either Colliers Wood or Wimbledon.

[@f.g.9466]

But is there capacity to add more passengers from Sutton on the Northern Line? I've only used it a few times, and it's been a few years, but from memory in rush hour it would get quite full in Tooting, crowded by the time you left Clapham. I "think" there is a little room for a tiny bit more capacity on the Northern if it gets split into 2 separate lines, but that requires complicated and expensive works at Camden, but still probably enough in the long term. Furthermore, from my experience the journey from Tooting into Central London is a painfully long and tedious one. I remember having a faster journey to London Bridge from Mid Sussex on the Thameslink, than from Morden on the Northern, despite the large difference in distance. Sutton would be even further than Morden. What I mean is that Sutton would be much better served by a new Crossrail type service than an extension of the Northern, and indeed we've seen some proposed Crossrail routes with Sutton as a starting point. Hope this makes sense.

[@dylan7003]

Please do a video about Banstead station, there's nothing really there and it is quite far from Banstead village, thus, why was it built?

[@MrGreatplum]

It probably should have been called Nork as it’s much closer to there!

[@bigdeepblue]

The line was built to Epsom Downs to get revenue from race days. Banstead and Belmont just happened to be on the route although revenue from these stations would have increased if speculative housing development had continued. The Green Belt Act (and opposition by the Commons Conservators) put a stop to that continuing any further.

[@cyberwomble7524]

5:03 Hmm, could really do with a "Beware of Trains" sign - just to confuse the neighbours.

[@cdrw1024]

תודה!

[@baxtermarrison5361]

Ah, vested interests resulting is a sub-optimal outcome. Oh how times have changed.... Err wait... 😊

[@johntyjp]

I'm surprised all these different companies trains didn't pile up in a heap??!!! 😆🧐

[@cannonboltVsXLR8]

Does anyone know why thameslink trains make that odd warbling sound?

[@mikemoreno4469]

Very interesting.

[@highpath4776]

St Helier I think had a coal depot facitlity (was there anything at West Sutton where the Footy club now is ?). The St Helier estate having open coal fires in every cottage property- no wonder there was low life expectancy in them days.

[@gfall4389]

The 7.55 London Bridge service would be more...comfortable if there was a tube i can be sure of that

[@andywarne963]

Its an odd line. It required a huge amount of civil engineering to build embankments and cuttings to avoid use of any level crossings, and used massive amounts of concrete, but the end result simply isnt all that good, with gradients and sharp curves. I would hate to live in the flats near the turnoff between Wimbledon and Wimbledon Chase. The curve is so tight the wheels really squeal.

[@StillOnFire]

Sutton Borough has pretty poor public transport links compared many other London Boroughs. It really could have used that tram extension that was proposed a few years back.

[@eastlancsesteem]

The trams will go there instead.

[@stephencryan291]

I have never understood why the Sutton-Wimbledon-Tooting Loop is in the hands of Thameslink. I know how we reached this situation but not why it continues so. As the Loop is completely inside the Greater London Conurbation so it theoretically comes under the remit of TfL. Do you not consider that this line is a strong candidate to be part of the Overground?

[@andrewhotston983]

It's mad that the Northern Line doesn't connect to the Wimbledon to Sutton line, since the Northern Line depot is so close, and TfL loves connectivity.

[@teecefamilykent]

I'd love to see your views on a theoretical underground line to Brighton?

[@f.g.9466]

Given the distance between London and Brighton, the service would always have to be either a spaced out RER thing or an express service pattern (as Thameslink do, all stops to Gatwick, then express through Croydon and South London). To be honest, Thameslink is pretty much Crossrail 1.0, connecting Brighton with Cambridge & Bedford via Central London, the core tunnel being fully automated. Frequencies aren't quite up there but from Brighton there are 4 trains per hour heading to London. A little bit up the line in Three Bridges and Gatwick the frequency doubles up to 8 trains per hour.

[@Jimyjames73]

Very good as per usual Jago 🙂🚂🚂🚂

[@highpath4776]

Frank Pick was accused by the Southern of Feeding Morden Station with all the Underground Group Buses ( Pre Loop construction I think ), He provided to a committee of evidence ( LCC or Parliamentary I forget which ) that showed more (routes? (or numbers of buses stopping per weekday) was in excess at Sutton Station compared to Morden. I would love to see the analysis. Sutton did have a few of the London Country area green buses calling at it from points south, plus the croydons/ kingstons / epsoms. but I still feel Morden had more (but then that might just have been before St Helier Estate really got built).

[@highpath4776]

A little feature on the LSWR power station at Durnsford Road, Wimbledon, would be interesting, was it built for the electrification program ? (I cannot recall if it was 1920s or a touch earlier) , this could be combined with a review of the carriage sheds and maintenance depot at Wimbledon . (and a review of part of the Wimbledon Station remodeling for the Wimbledon-Sutton Line arrival I think of the flyover moving the fast and slow lines about east of Wimbledon Station

[@brucebigglesworth9532]

The LSWR built their own power station at Durnsford Road in 1913, as part of the first phase of their third rail electification plans.

[@highpath4776]

@@brucebigglesworth9532 Thanks, that is about the same time as the Edwardian boost to Electric services on the London tube network and I think the electric experiments in NE England, of course the tram networks had had electrical operation for some year previous, the genius was realising the power could feed units in multiple and not just a single car.

[@brucebigglesworth9532]

@@highpath4776 It was shame that the LBSCR's much better 6800V overhead system was not adopted by the Southern Railway, At least, the unnecessarily complicated 1500V four-rail system proposed by the SECR never got beyond the planning stage. Also, I hope Jago will find time to celebrate the work of Alfred Raworth, who does not get the recognition he deserves for creating a workable infrastructure for third rail electrification on Southern Railway and its sucessors.