Understanding Square, Counter and Leveling in Large Radius Turns

One way of understanding what are often confusing concepts in skiing. Content for the advanced skier. Support this channel at www.skistrong.org/store/

[@chenrayray6263]

another treasure video that I have missed for so long...and seems not that much people notice how much important about hip. I couldn't notice that aswell until I have repeated watching your other videos. Thank you so much Debb, I hope one day that ski could be my Zen, my meditation.

[@margaretreid6570]

Totally relate to all of this. In the early 1970s I was taught to face my body downhill as I traversed and now concentrate on everything this video is teaching. You both have assisted greatly in explaining what that should look like in very simple terms. Thank you.

[@fordski06]

Got my first pair of skis in the early 50’s. We’d go skiing on the weekends. During the week we would pack the front lawn by side stepping up the small hill. Perhaps an incline of 5%. Then we would practice snow plow turns down the lawn. After a while we could get two turns in. When I saw this video it brought back all of those memories. Thanks Deb.

[@tonyg516]

Ford Stevenson I remember doing the same. Cable bindings and snowmobile boots. Pack the hill, the dips in the ground we’re your rollers and trees were your gates! Stop before you skied off the wall! Very good times.

[@drgnfr]

Your brother has a very analytical way of thinking. Really helpful, thank you both!

[@thomasmedeiros5722]

I hope skiers watching this video appreciate the value of your coaching ( plus brother) advice. I have been fortunate to have experienced some professional coaching over the last 50 years of my skiing experience.. 50 years of skiing and I am still doing drills to improve skills. 72 years old and I am still in skiing study hall. Your videos are great homework. 🎿⛷

[@readgildner-blinn1710]

Interesting, plausible, and directly counter (no pun) to what my examiner/coach discussed in December's Projam. Maybe he was thinking slalom, but we talked about hips/shoulders down the fall line, femurs turning in the hip socket, and we worked on that one day. What you're saying makes sense, though, so I'm bemused.

[@LeoKahng]

Deb, love your videos and thank you for sharing so much of your knowledge and experiences!

[@AlvarHugosson]

As always, very informative and easy to understand.

[@user-di1sg8km9j]

Amazing videos. So very clear even for a beginner like me. Thank you very much for spending your time and posting them free. BTW electric snow blower might help with the landscape. It's much more easy to handle it than a gasoline one and it's much more cheaper as well. The only thing about it is a power socket nearby and a 75 ft outdoor electrical wire. But it's usually not a problem when living in a house.

[@nytrocircus]

Dude, this is a fairly intense drilling down on the subject of square vs counter. Hairs are split and that stuff matters when push comes to shove and IMO, the explanations given in this video are bang on. From where I sit based on my personal experience, "countering' is a reality that can be tricky to nail down. What is countering what? How is that happening? Why is 'it' happening? Approaching the concept from a center of mass perspective rather than a skeletal perspective is an interesting starting point. While the center of mass isn't a body part per say, it is a physical reality. Can we twist our center of mass? I say yes. In a ski turn the 'center of mass' can twist either in the direction of the turn, or counter to the direction of the turn. And that's where I leave it. IMO, the skeleton is manipulated to optimize your

[@Premierskis]

Love it! I don't teach counter at all. If someone really wants to discuss it, I will tell them we ski into and out of counter because the legs are turning more than the body. As a rule, it makes a lot more sense to not really talk about it, but instead, tell students to have the body moving in the direction of travel.

[@thomastheys6681]

Jeepers creepers I love you guys this is some of the best information that needs to come out it doesn’t need to be a secret any more. I coached for 16 years in the development ranks and then left with a group of athletes on the pro tour for six years. My last position was with Beavercreek and the development race programs there you guys are so right on I’m sharing this with everybody that I can. Thomyt

[@DebArmstrongSkiStrong]

Well this is a favorite comment ever. Thank you!! Ya, spread the word. Glad you appreciate!

[@PTI_USA]

@@DebArmstrongSkiStrong you are the best Deb

[@hayleybland9195]

So helpful, thank you. May need to watch it through a few times for it to sink in.

[@DebArmstrongSkiStrong]

Yes. and good luck!! take care

[@kmichiel]

Nice and clear video, Deb. The way I always see it, to build on the comment of slalom or short radius turns vs large radius, is that the upper body (or the big eye on your chest) is looking in the direction of your trajectory. So in large turns you are looking kind of across the slope towards your next turn. When skiing short radius turns, your trajectory is kind of straight into the fall line and so you will be looking down into the valley while your legs are turning underneath you. And so you will be (more) countered in the latter situation. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[@Huttify]

Just found your channel, Deb. Love the content! As a skier that learned skiing from coaches that peaked in the 80s, I don't get how this is a problem. I am square even if I try to not be. Everything falls into line because my shoulders leads everything else. The leveling is also no issue since I need to counter the movement I had in to the sharpest part of the turn. Maybe I just don't understand this. I'll need to examine my videos regarding this. (Kudos for your brothers norwegian hat :) ) Thanks!

[@rogerharvey8293]

Love the vintage scott poles!

[@hayleypbop6997]

I thought I had it up until the end. More thinking (by me) needed!

[@pawstol]

Bravo,bravo,bravo for your brother Deb (for you too) !!!

[@sdy764]

Thanks a lot~~! Very useful for me

[@CostantinoLenzi]

in swiss long turns rules are: inclination, rotate , angulation, counter. end of the turn .

[@rinohunter6190]

I love the advanced tech discussions. No bending at the waste either, as in shoulders toward the ground, correct?

[@Rocstoneau]

This went over my head.

[@normalizedaudio2481]

Working on this a lot lately. Spent too much time with a camera on the helmet. I would ski to the good camera angle. It's "Hip to be Square."

[@FranciscoTornay]

Awesome video, Deb! One question. I tend to think of the kind of "countering" that you talk about like this: For medium/long turns, the turn is initiated from the feet/knees but I let the upper body follow the turn, only with a little delay, which comes naturally from the mere fact that the turn is initiated from the bottom. That results in a small countering throughout the turn, which I think is what Olin is talking about at the end of the video. In contrast, in short turns I make an effort to keep my body from rotating with the turn so that it stays more oriented to the fall line. Am I on the right track here?

[@DebArmstrongSkiStrong]

yep, nice

[@emilferent23]

Had the same question. But then that's not 100% no counter. There is a little bit. Otherwise my physics don't make sense

[@Skiburn41]

Hello Deb, this is a great video. I often have conversations with other instructors about being countered. But I like the way you explain it by saying you can get counter for free as well as lead change. So my question is that in regular skiing not gs do you need more counter?

[@DebArmstrongSkiStrong]

It depends of the gola of the turn. Short turns down a narrow shoot, yes. Short bump turns also. And situations in racing. It is situational.

[@jennmetz7342]

Nice Deb. Sharing with my L3 candidates and we will open a discussion. WHile I agree completely with what you're proposing, the terminology can still be misinterpreted relative to the source (USSA vsPSIA) as well as the application (GS vs outside the course). 'Rotationally Aligned' may be a way I'll be expressing with this gang, but same idea... that it comes as an effect of accurate skills application. Let's get some turns in sometime .. please ;-)

[@DebArmstrongSkiStrong]

NICE Jenn. Thank you for the comment. Really good stuff. And Yes, would love to make some turns together soon😉

[@ianbruce8914]

You mention, Deb, at the start of the vid that you'll discuss the two positions on the skis, "square" and "countered", but then you view them as the same. You show some great pics of world cup ski racers in positions as they pass the gate. For example, the pic of the Swedish racer (maybe Hector or Swenn-Larsson?) is beautifully angulated and correctly countered, I mean look where the upper body (that's pelvis plus torso) is pointing, quite a way downhill. It's the countering that allows the angulation to take place, the hip close to the ground and the C of M way inside to be able to fight the forces. Another great example of perfect angulation and counter is Mikaela doing GS at the 2016 Nationals in the Valley of Sun, she demonstrates outstanding discipline!!! Never squaring up or rotating and able to fight the forces easily every and I mean every single turn. If she, and Sarah Hector, were to be "square", so facing the same way as the skis are facing, her hips would not be close to the ground, her angulation far less, her ability to fight the forces and stay in the carving arc much less. I understand you're afraid of over doing the countering but would it not be better to be accurate with the terminology we use?

[@DebArmstrongSkiStrong]

Check this video out. More on square. kzbin.info/www/bejne/fnO9kJigbdVraLMsi=znuar2Nsb_aDFdOR Then get back to me. I’ll send another video as well

[@DebArmstrongSkiStrong]

And check this one out as well, I get into square. Let me know your thoughts

[@ianbruce8914]

@@DebArmstrongSkiStrong Deb, did you attach the youtube vid to this email? When I click on the circle next to your name it takes me to a vid you did about turn shape, is that the one you’re wanting me to see? Regarding the vid with Cooper, he’s an excellent skier and he seems like a terrific kid as well. I sure hope he continues to do well and crack the Europa Cup and WC scene. What Cooper (and you) mentions about the inside knee is very good, it’s crucial especially in SL. Difficult to do and it takes a lot of clever drills and practice to help the brain become familiar with and not panic when the pinky toe edge is in the snow. What Cooper mentions about outside ski pressure is also very correct, I was happy to hear him say that. What Cooper mentions about the hip “drive” is tricky I’m afraid. He uses the golf analogy which is cute but completely the opposite of what happens in skiing. My question to you and Cooper is: where exactly in the GS turn does he claim perform this hip squaring movement to power the ski? Thanks Deb, Ian.

[@DebArmstrongSkiStrong]

@@ianbruce8914 ok, here is the second link I lope. Finesse in skiing, Rotary movements kzbin.info/www/bejne/aJrNgZ2wr6qgZsk I appreciate your comments. I’m on the road and don’t have my glasses😳 it is making communicating difficult

[@ianbruce8914]

@@DebArmstrongSkiStrong I did watch this vid before. A lot of excellent stuff you talk about Deb. The square hips:hmm, tricky I'm afraid, Deb.

[@myworldautistic670]

I like his explanation. I LOVE that he and I have the same skis!!! That's a kick a** ski!! 😄🎿

[@rickykhari9987]

a trick: watch movies at flixzone. I've been using them for watching lots of of movies lately.

[@mordechaifrancis73]

@Ricky Khari Definitely, I have been using Flixzone} for since december myself :D

[@izaiahbrayden63]

@Ricky Khari Yea, I've been watching on Flixzone} for since december myself :D

[@jobagirl]

Sweet. I must admit I’m a loser with terms... but I know I need you as my coach to move to the next level. Thanks... from Japan.

[@DebArmstrongSkiStrong]

Thank you very much. Where do you ski in Japan? Take care

[@jobagirl]

@@DebArmstrongSkiStrong ironically, we live in Kyushu( think Georgia). So my daughter learned to ski on ice when we weren’t skiing in Colorado,Vermont, or ÇA. But in Japan, we usually ski in Niseko, Sapporo, Niigata, and hope,to get to Aomori but it’s a long journey to Nagano ski resorts from Tokyo . Great Japow in Hokkaido..

[@DebArmstrongSkiStrong]

@@jobagirl hi Heide😊 all the best to you

[@jobagirl]

@@DebArmstrongSkiStrong thanks! Stay safe ... looking forward to your channel...

[@lisacheng01]

Thanks so much Deb and Olin!! great explanation. May I clarify an important from Olin about the lowering of the inside shoulder, that during the transition phase of putting weight on the new outside ski, the same shoulder shoulder be lowered too for leveling... is my interpretation correct please? does that apply to the whole turn or only the first quadrant of the turn please? many thanks Lisa

[@lisacheng01]

or does Olin refers to tipping the shoulder of the old outside at the top of the turn until the apex, then ..... may i seek the clarification as this is an important skill please Thanks

[@lisacheng01]

it is because on the video I saw Olin demonstrates by tipping his L shoulder (uphill shoulder), I wonder if he is demonstrating this for the next right turn please

[@Beniqwa]

Could you make a video teaching how to do a short radius turn? I’m still confused about what that even means!

[@travisglazebrook3654]

You rock.

[@p..1..]

Applause !!!!!!!!! 👍👍👍

[@DebArmstrongSkiStrong]

Awesome. Glad you appreciate

[@euanswan4653]

Enjoyed your presentation. Somewhat confused by Olin suggesting that the upper body can be moving in a different direction than the lower body. - facing downhill yes, but NOT moving in a different direction! Confusing for a beginner/intermediate skier.

[@DebArmstrongSkiStrong]

This video is for advanced skiers. Can beginners watch it, sure but they are not the intended audience. Thanks for the comment

[@euanswan4653]

@@DebArmstrongSkiStrong Thanks for your quick response. I think we are all on the same page on this subject. Please keep up your good work as I look forward to your future videos! PS: Hope your car is out of the shop soon!

[@josephgdraper]

I was wondering if your brother was still involved in racing. A while ago you shared some of the "home movies" of you and your brother racing as kids and traveling to races in the VW Bus. The last clip of your brother in this video reminded me of discussions with PSIA instructors who used a made-up word "for-agonal" (combination of forward and diagonal).

[@DebArmstrongSkiStrong]

Yep. Thats my bro in both videos, the van video and this latest video. The word forangal, that's a good one!!!

[@jeffbarrie8576]

Yes, I'm familiar with the term and it works for me. To me it means eyes, head and upper body moving down the fall line, (which means that shoulders are at a right angle to the fall line), as the skis run diagonally to the fall line, (while in the turn). And if you're a mogul skier like myself my hips are square to the fall line as well, employing what is called uphill hip drive while in the turn.

[@oldpool]

Deb, in this video where you show your brothers graphic and ask the viewer to pause and view, I’m thinking that is a plan view looking down from above the skier, is this correct? Thank you!

[@DebArmstrongSkiStrong]

Yes

[@brokenoldguy1234]

Pretty important subject, countering and leveling of the shoulders. In your video you mostly hit on the squaring to the ski and the tipping of the shoulder. Most people, especially now with the carving crazy, are already squared to the ski. You briefly touched on where you would want to counter in a shorter turn so I’m not sure why you brought the subject up without showing where you would use countering the most. I am also wondering why you wouldn’t bring how countering can help you as a turning power, skeletal alignment.I like what you said about naturally letting the lead change occur.

[@DebArmstrongSkiStrong]

Of course. Good topic for another video. I try to keep my videos.short for attention spans. The ideal length is 3-4 minutes. As you can see for this one, I am over that. However i will do a video on your points as they are important. Have you followed other videos on my channel?

[@brokenoldguy1234]

Yes I have and I commented on one of them. I love talking skiing!

[@vrt1032]

Love your videos.... Just saying but there is so much instruction/guidance to always have your upper body looking down to the bottom of the hill, especially in videos about how they teach mogul skiing and where i live in northeast most step runs have moguls and we have a more narrow track we have to go down... we are not usually doing the wide downhill/giantslalom. So not sure what 'counter' of my upper body to my lower body i should use for moving down a steep hill with short turns.

[@strathound]

So this REALLY confused me ... until I saw the clarification that we're talking about longer radius GS turns and racing. Gotcha. Might put that in the title to avoid confusion.

[@DebArmstrongSkiStrong]

"large radius turns" is in the title. I hope the content was helpful to you. take care

[@emilferent23]

Interesting. Though I'm not sure it makes total sense. If you're square to the tip lead 100% of the time you'll have an huge problem when accelerating in the first half of the turn because of the big forces and you having to keep up with the skis. So does that mean that during the acceleration phase you fall inside the turn a little bit (but still square) in order to be on balance with the acceleration?

[@otisregatoni617]

Nice D, So square, I feel like a German carpenter. Achtung, Otis

[@PTI_USA]

👍🏽

[@reflectorwoman]

👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽

[@footfoundation5063]

Amen! I would like to offer the idea that when we talk about Connor the way you just did that we use the word functional counter as a result of how we stand against the hill versus active counter when we try to put ourselves in a position that is like your brother said facing in a different direction and the skis are pointing I like to also say that you cannot counter and pronate it at the same time there’s a huge connection to hip position and foot position inside the boot that deserves a couple chapters there is a place for counter in skiing and that’s when you’re skating so there’s a direct correlation between counter and skid and pronation and carving which I think would help a lot of people‘s understanding of the biomechanics going on with the foot and the hip. Great job!

[@jeffbarrie8576]

Depends on the discipline. If you're a racer you are using hip/knee angulation and your upper body faces more in the direction of travel. If your are a mogul skier like myself you are mainly using knee angulation and hips/upper body remain facing down the fall line. Watch World Cup mogul skiers in slo mo and it will become clear. If Mikaela skied the moguls the way she runs gates she would have a much harder time getting down the run and she's a super athlete as we all know.

[@DebArmstrongSkiStrong]

Thanks for the comment

[@jeffbarrie8576]

Deb, do you agree with my assessment? (wonder what Bobby A would say).@@DebArmstrongSkiStrong

[@DebArmstrongSkiStrong]

@@jeffbarrie8576 generally speaking ya. Thanks for the comment

[@jeffbarrie8576]

@@DebArmstrongSkiStrong Love your channel. Thanks, Deb

[@tombrayton4412]

Nice doodle 🐕 i

[@jagers4xford471]

Do not confuse Lead with counter, not the same thing. Lead is natural counter is contrived. Don't follow the skis, bad idea. face / look where you are going. Natural athletic stance in skiing is lead dominant. Counter at transition or during short swing, bumps, steeps, flushes. Otherwise face where you are going using your natural lead as a strong dynamic starting point. Thanks Deb. You look much better without a bacteria generator.

[@DebArmstrongSkiStrong]

Bacteria generator? Not following, sorry. As for the other guessing you were putting the points of the video in your words? We seem to be in agreement? Take care

[@jagers4xford471]

@@DebArmstrongSkiStrong Hi Deb, that's what my doc calls masks, bacteria generators. He told me to smell my mask at the end of day. He said that awful smell is bacteria growing on the fabric of the mask. To breath that in on every breath is the best way he knows to develop bacterial pneumonia. He goes on to say, people with lung or breathing issues should stay away from masks. On to skiing, I go round and round with some coaches and examiners, not all, concerning counter. Some have raced, some not. I see kids at local programs skiing extreme counter from top to bottom in turns. When I ask why they ski that way, the usual response is, my coach told me too. I ask a pro counter examiner to ski 10 to 15 medium radius turns in normal fashion while I video. We analyzed the video on the chair. The only place where there were pronounced counter was the first turn or two and at the last. The rest were all facing where he was going. Once he got into his pole touch and a strong angulated stance, his counter disappeared. I'm not saying counter is a useless form, it just has it's place. In our system we call DS, counter is taught in fall line applications such as short swing, flushes, bumps ect.. Thanks for the time you put into your videos, people love them, and I recommend them. Ski like you mean it...

[@jeffbarrie8576]

Depends on the discipline. If you're a racer you are using hip/knee angulation and your upper body faces more in the direction of travel. If your are a mogul skier like myself you are mainly using knee angulation and hips/upper body remain facing down the fall line. Watch World Cup mogul skiers in slo mo and it will become clear. Deb has a racing background and agree with her in regards to skiing the groomed and running gates for the most part.

[@driftingsnow]

Maybe it’s just me here, but I can’t see how it can do anything other than confuse people, to call the second from left illustration on M Rogan’s diagram ‘square’, when in the English-speaking world that would not be called square, either in the common usage or in dictionaries for many years. Saying ‘a word means what I want it to mean’, and starting your own definition is straight out of Lewis Carrol. Surely, he was satirising people who didn’t use common meaning when he wrote it, and not giving advice on how to communicate with other people who already speak a common language with you?? I can understand the logic of trying to find a simple word to get over more complicated formulations that would describe that, such as ‘with hips and shoulders matching the ankles’ or suchlike. If that’s not good enough, maybe try to find another word or two: maybe Skew? True to feet? And doesn’t ‘stacked’ as used for some time now in skiing, do a pretty good job of describing that position already? BTW I love your videos! (But not this bit.) (Edit: Since I’m not an American, I do hope I get some latitude here? I would have had no reason to follow what crimes against English are being perpetrated by, is it the PSIA, perchance? Are they responsible for this? If so, I think they very probably made a mistake.)

[@DebArmstrongSkiStrong]

Sis yiu watch the complete video? What matters is how one communicates. Did I clearly communicate my meaning. Michael's diagram fits my meaning well.

[@driftingsnow]

Yes I watched it. I’m sure you’re consistent as always. But I’m on the other side of the Atlantic and not up-to-date with how ski instructors are newly coining terms over on your side. As I said, it’s not that you’re inconsistent and you did say how you’d be using the term ‘square’, but it simply doesn’t square (ho ho) with how I understand the English word, and I suspect that goes for millions of other people too. If a carpenter built a doorframe like that and he told me it it was square, I’d get rid of him and get another carpenter. Hope that’s all fair and square.

[@driftingsnow]

Sincere apologies: I can’t leave it alone like that. I’ve now found this: “square position: Skier stance where the hips and shoulders are perpendicular to the longitudinal axis of the skis.” (USSA Level 100 Coaching Manual 2014, ‘Glossary’, page 84) (Some top people are listed on page 3) I’m Ok with that. Makes sense to an Englishman. Has it been changed lately? “parallel position: A body position that is continually changing throughout the turn but maintains parallel skis, and an aligned lead of the inside of the body to allow for equal ankle flexion. Skier's ankles, knees, hips and shoulders are aligned corresponding to the lead (inside) ski.” (USSA Level 100 Coaching Manual 2014, ‘Glossary’, page 82) I’m Ok with that too, as a description of the skew in the second illustration of the diagram. It makes sense to an Englishman. This isn’t intended to be any kind of criticism of you and I’m not trying to bug you. I’m now even more puzzled and looking for enlightenment on whether and why things have changed.

[@DebArmstrongSkiStrong]

@@driftingsnow ha!!!!!! I love all your thought. Focus on my points and if you agree or not. As for the names, the words, no matter what they are just be sure to clearly define your position. Words in skiing are so very often confused and so many times have a 180 different meaning than intended. I hope my position is not confusing to you. Take care! Life long learning. Im right in there with ya!!! Peace