Understanding the sinking of the Moskva

Today we will consider a case study in understanding the state of crew and ship reliability as regards the loss of the Slava-class cruiser Moskva. The 2008 engagement between the Nanuchka-class corvette Mirazh and the Georgian Stenka-class cutter Giorgi Toreli serves as a perfect example of crew performance on a Russian warship at a time of war. The conclusions are grim, yet should provide a good approximation to the state of operations on the Moskva during its fateful final voyage.
Original video: • МРК "Мираж". Август-2008.
МРК "Мираж". Август-2008. - filmed by Aleksandr Danilov

[@paulmakinson1965]

Old Soviet saying: "We pretend to work, they pretend to pay us".

[@finalfandy4766]

lol

Isn't it the other way around: "They pretend to pay us so we pretend to work".

[@D__Lee]

If the Russian navy vessels were as modern, technologically advanced, well maintained and crewed as the "super yachts" of the Russian oligarchs, they'd be a very potent surface force.

[@kolasillers7776]

Then there would not be so many oligarchs.😂

[@ekesandras1481]

those superyachts are built in Germany or Italy, that's the difference.

[@alexandruraresdatcu]

Why do you think most of the Mega Yachts are going to Vladivostok. Throw a few missiles on them and go to war in luxury...

[@MontyFly]

@@ekesandras1481 Not all of them but, your point is well taken. Along the same lines the crews of these super yachts are not unskilled/trained conscripts. Having a crew that doesn't speak Russian can be an advantage if you're a Russian oligarch. Only the Capt. needs to understand what the owner says.

[@pierohermadones1877]

Let's say that there are at least two main "justifications" that the Russians have always built warships that are not very efficient in many respects - 1) The Russian surface fleet (ex Soviet) has never been the main weapon of the Soviet / Russian armed forces. In order of importance it literally comes last and far in importance even from the underwater fleet. 2) The operational task of the fleet is mainly defensive and only for major units (missile cruisers ...) is also intended to attack enemy naval devices with attacks that substantially amount to suicide missions. Basically they are ships with a one-way ticket 😶

[@Redhand1949]

I was in the US Navy from 1971-1974. I served on a WW-II era destroyer, upgraded, of course, but still not cutting edge. It was a reserve training ship. I mention its age because of its condition. It was wonderfully maintained, and very "shipshape." Safety was always a key value from the Captain right down to the lowest seaman. So, seeing the grossly deteriorated and in some areas completely missing lifelines on the main deck was a shocker. Hell, in some cases even the stanchions holding the lifelines on the edges of the main deck are missing, so there are no lifelines in place at all. This neglect of basic crew safety is clearly "institutionalized," since a missing stanchion is obvious evidence of long-term neglect or even concern for basic crew safety. In the US Navy, I doubt that a ship would even be allowed to get underway in such unseaworthy condition. Truly shocking.

[@eTraxx]

no Navy experience but Army .. but what you said applies .. the NCO in charge of that would get reamed ... probably the lower ranking officer too .. no doubt at all in my mind

[@Redhand1949]

@@eTraxx On a U.S. Navy ship a broken lifeline stanchion would be dealt with immediately. Clearly, the Russian Navy's concern for its people is next to nil, except when conveying false condolences to the parents of dead servicemen.

[@flipper184]

When a Chief Engineer has to elbow his way thru half a dozen slackers and none of them gets elbow damage it isn't a very good Navy. No discipline at all.

[@roberturling9183]

When the sea launcher in Long Beach harbor was first set up there were no safety lines around the deck so you could walk into the ocean. Also the Soyuz rocket would go into launch position immediately without klaxons or other warnings.

[@rxonmymind8362]

Russians don't really care about their own soldiers as you can see you're thrown into the Ukraine war like meat in an alligator pit.

[@technoman53]

I have no naval experience, but I am a heavy equipment mechanic. I noticed there was an empty oil stained bucket on the deck next to the launcher. It’s not necessarily related to the launcher, it could have been used for something else, but if you keep a bucket around a piece of hydraulic equipment that’s a pretty good indicator that it leaks a lot, and/or you need to constantly bleed it just to make it work.

[@arandomsteve2251]

another possible use: your built in lubrication systems are none operative and moving parts have to be manually oiled before use. given the environment, and looking at the problems seen in the video, seizing mechanisms seems possible

[@jefferynelson]

good observation, the crew of the ship could have used a guy with your expertise

[@bobbyrayofthefamilysmith24]

Yeh I bet everything except the paint job was badly maintained. Russia only cares about appearing powerful with big weapons that are actually crap

[@aleksanderdomanski222]

@@georgehunter2813 we call it "low technical culture". Lots of this guys were raised in enviroment without any complex machines needing constant care. So, they lack that awarness you all have. In Russia that's common everywhere. Moreover soldiers (and their commanders too) do not do things cos they understand importance of that but cos they are told too. If not told (and checked) they "leave it to be someone's else problem". This goes way to the top. And when you add coruption at all levels you got results as shown by Moskwa.

[@theeddorian]

@@georgehunter2813 I was in the Ukraine, Crimea, in the '90s and people at the time were talking about a visit from a US(?) naval group of ships. They were making comparisons with the Russian ships, and flattering to Russia. The basic descriptions suggested that the Russian ships could be heard for miles, and the smoke trail seen even father. In Sebastopol the indications of maintenance practices on their Kilo class subs was enough to make you worry for the crews. You could simply drive up the estuary and look across at the docks where the subs were tied up. The scary part was disassembling one sub and moving parts to others.

[@mojorasin653]

In 1984 while aboard USS H E Holt FF 1074 I was able to observe the then CCCP Minsk, their version of an aircraft carrier, at very close proximity for two weeks. We were dispatched from Subic Bay to an area 100nm East of Vietnam and assigned to shadow the Minsk. The mission was to observe and to gather Elint and other intelligence. What I could see then and from the numerous personal photos I have now completely concurs with the authors conclusion . The crew were shirtless and in shorts even during active flight ops. The ship itself belched smoke like it was burning coal. And it went dead in the water at least twice during that timeframe. This was at the height of Soviet military prowess. I am not shocked at all that it has only deteriorated since then.

[@davidzachmeyer1957]

It was probably burning mazut, like her sister the Admiral Gorshkov (originally the Baku).

[@juhajuntunen7866]

Not better oil than direct from borehole, Greta must hate this stuff.

[@philgreen8730]

While a respectable little frigate, the “Weird Harold” wasn’t exactly the gem of the Pacific Fleet. We shadowed a brand new Sovremny class destroyer a few years later off Vladivostok and nothing seemed amiss with her. Later during that UW period we had another encounter with an even older and more derelict piece of Soviet equipment. I can’t go into details but it was not the Holt’s finest hour. The fact that the Russian Navy has a history of profound institutional problems doesn’t change the fact that the USN often has fallen short as well. Nice to hear about the Holt. Some fond memories from years ago.

[@mojorasin653]

@@philgreen8730 I miised out on that one, went to shore duty in 86. But the Holt and the whole Knox class was problematic. Single screw meant DIW a lot. Seems like it never could make enough water underway. And downright scary in rough seas when the sonardome would come out of the water and come crashing down. Yeah good times.

[@longyu9336]

Literally 1984

[@terryduane2780]

I think it is wonderful how the generous russian navy allowed the Ukrainians to test their new Neptune missile . It is great how they masterfully brought their ship in close enough to make this test run as effect as it was . Thankyou . Slava Ukraine

[@Max-bk6ej]

Героям слава!

[@generalshibusd4948]

Good target 🎯 slava Ukraina 🇺🇦🚀🚀🚀

[@generalshibusd4948]

This too old better tO sunk

[@george6252]

It's starting to look we have be apprehensive with a "Paper Tiger" all these years.

[@OOpSjm]

Ship wasn't close in. Like the missile it's based on (kh-35) the missile can be loaded with a GPS location.

[@robertterhune4612]

The only things you have to understand about the sinking of the Moskova is 1. They should have not believed their own propaganda about Ukraine being a "special military operation" and had their weapons hot instead of thinking this was some "exercise", and had them down. And 2. Russian damage control is pathetic. The USS Stark got hit with 2 excocet missles, that are comparable to the ones that took out Moskova, yet her crew which was 1/4 the size of Moskova's saved the much smaller ship.

[@richardbell7678]

Exocets are odd missiles. Two major oddities of Exocet strikes are the large percentage of warheads that do not detonate and the devastating fires started by those missiles whose warheads do not detonate. It is almost as if Matra knew that severe fires would result if there was enough unburnt fuel in the sustainer rocket engine and the warhead is not armed until the detonation will be worse than the fire. I am told that the detonation of the warhead tends to hurl any unburnt rocket fuel away from the target, but the explosive filler of a non-detonation will add fuel to the fire.

[@arizonaexplorations4013]

@@richardbell7678 IRC, the Atlantic Conveyor was lost to a “dud” Exocet. She had already launched her air wing and only had a couple of helicopters on board at the time. The fires reached the magazines. The HMS Sheffield was hit by one Exocet that failed to explode. By luck it entered the ship via the engine room bulkhead rupturing the fire main and depressurizing the fire fighting system. She was abandoned after 4 hours. The fires had began to heat the magazine.

[@richardvernon317]

@@arizonaexplorations4013 Atlantic Conveyor went down with 3/4 of the British Heavy lift Helicopter force and all of their spares (3 Chinnooks), A complete flight of Wessex medium transport helicopters (6 aircraft) and a Lynx Helicopter that was using it as a temporary base. On top of that it had a complete forward operating airfield and the engineering equipment to build it onboard, plus a butt load of equipment that the land forces really needed and most of the bombs for the RAF harriers. It was the biggest loss of the war as far as the British were concerned and had a major effect on how they fought the rest of the war.

[@1977Yakko]

With the Stark, I think only one of the Exocet's exploded but the fuel in the missiles still caused serious fires. The Brits dealt with the same during the Falklands campaign, fires from the missile fuel let alone the warhead (if it exploded). The superstructures of the RN ships had a lot of aluminum I hear and that was an issue with the heat from the fires. I think that was a consideration when the USN built the Burke class DDGs. Except for the mast, the ships are all steel.

[@1977Yakko]

@@richardvernon317 I'm guessing that's the reason the Brit troops had to walk everywhere they went when they landed. But the Brit troops were well trained and able to hack it.

[@DukeOfTwist]

When your flagship is sunk 'AT SEA' by a nation that has no functional Navy its a really bad day

[@largol33t1]

I'm sure Putin still silently weeps about the loss of his favorite toy to this day...

[@charlesharris9965]

This is not the first time a Russian fleet has been proven to be incompetent. The Voyage of the Damned that ended in the destruction of the Russian 2nd Pacific Fleet at Tsushima in 1905.

[@hegemonycricket9549]

Here is a good video about that campaign. Just mind-blowing. kzbin.info/www/bejne/b37HmpJ8nZ6Sd8k

[@darkpegasas9938]

i think it is Baltic fleat ,it is hilarious you should watch documentaries about that 🤣🤣

[@darkpegasas9938]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/a5unk32YeNp-opY

[@darkpegasas9938]

watch this

[@foxcm2000]

Drachinfel's finest work!

[@breadbug6101]

It feels so strange knowing that a ship I once looked at so frequently on Wikipedia is now at the bottom of the ocean, that history has been made

[@OOpSjm]

Why that one? There are 3 and it was definitely the runt compared to it's class siblings.

[@breadbug6101]

@@OOpSjm I used to look at it as reference for a Roblox naval warfare game called Le Bote Rebooted

[@OOpSjm]

@Alan Lewis You seem to equate "flagship" to something special. In this case, yes, if that means tied to the pier for 70% of it's life as a flagpole .

[@oveidasinclair982]

The first thing I came up with was the lack of professionalism of the Russian navy when the Moscow was hit, I wouldn't doubt for one minute that it's water tight doors and compartments were not set for battle conditions

[@samadams7573]

What water tight doors? If you believe the Moskova had water tight doors you're mistaken.

[@dougerrohmer]

@@samadams7573 I hope at least they had screen doors to keep the flies localised.

[@zagreus1249]

I am hate to scare you, but i read that many Russian and Soviet Naval vessels do not have water tight doors, like the US Naval vessels.

[@Chrisamic]

There were NO watertight doors on the Moskva. They (Russian navy) don't see the need for them, or they think the ship will be more efficient without them. There may be one actually - the door to the helicopter hangar which you can see was left hanging open. Just that fact alone speaks volumes about crew discipline on that ship. No one closed it, because it was no one's job to close it, or the one person who's job it was got hit in the missile strike, or the mechanism to close it was broken.

[@vanceb1]

@@Chrisamic That's crazy. Even dinner cruise boats in the US have watertight doors.

[@simonbeaird7436]

It seems to me that the Russian Navy has not only learned nothing since the Battle of Tsushima but has not even realized that it needs to learn anything! Appalling standards of maintenance and training seem to be endemic in all Russian forces. I wonder how many of their ICBMs would fail to launch or even explode in their silos. I sincerely hope that no one ever finds out!

[@j3i2i2yl7]

I was reminded of the 2nd Pacific Squadron of 1908 as well. When you supress the embarassing mistakes made in your countrys history you don't learn from them and so you repeat them, even a century later.

[@OOpSjm]

Totally different group. They live at the top of the food chain.

[@j3i2i2yl7]

@@OOpSjm Perhaps, but I wonder though, weren't the Chernobly operators and engineers at the top too, but the were fed propaganda that made them complacent. Is hubris built into the culture?

[@ericjones1289]

I noticed that when the missile launcher was finally in the position to retract the missile was pointing down. Surely it would be better to have it pointing up so that in the event of a missfire it wouldn't blow a hole in the ships bottom?

[@OOpSjm]

@@j3i2i2yl7 What?

[@byterock]

Just as a side note. I visited the Baltic fleet way back in 82, they did not have any 'No-skid' paint on any of the ships we visited, this one looks like it is none on this ship as well. This would be the turbine control room and that was most likely the Chief ERA coming to see what the problem was

[@FLJBeliever1776]

You're kidding?! No Skid Paint? I wonder how much swimming practice the crews got on a regular basis? Because that's just wrong.

[@byterock]

@@FLJBeliever1776 Well if my source is to believed (and she is a good one) the entire band was on the ship as well. They also seem to have kept the very old naval tradition (long since dropped in any Navy that takes a band to sea) that bandsmen have no other duties on a ship. The mind boggles. They where also taken aback by our daily fire drills for the evening duty watch while in port. More so because the duty officer also showed up and stayed for the usual lecture by the duty fireman.

[@FLJBeliever1776]

@@byterock - Now I'm beginning to see why so many Russian people sneak across the US-Canadian Border. That and that there are more than 40,000 Russian volunteers in the Ukrainian Army , which is likely greater than the actual number of volunteers in the Ruzzian Army.

[@oswaldocollazo196]

As a US NAVY SEAMAN BACK IN THE EARLY 70 TIES ON AN AIRCRAFT CARRIER, TRAINING DRILLS WERE THE NUMBER ONE TOP PRORITY . We drilled day and night, and most of the drills was conducted at around 200am to 300am, and would last at least 1 hour. We trained until we were always at combat ready. The training was intense, nothing like the Russia navy.( USSR)

[@h8GW]

But intense in a constructive way, to make you proud of your capabilities and your ship, and not intense in a hazing way, right?

[@oswaldocollazo196]

@@h8GW Hazing was not allowed on US NAVY COMBAT SHIPS, or any other place.

[@h8GW]

@@oswaldocollazo196 Of course. I don't assume _actual_ hazing is a widespread thing in the American military, but I was more wondering if you are grateful for the drills, or did they suck intensely like hazing sucks?

[@milferdjones2573]

@@h8GW They would only suck like hazing if the command was over all nasty to the crew. Then the crew would think it unwarranted a show about a Captain who liked to rub steel balls around in his hands covers that mutiny well. Hazing has no practical use the drills have a use no matter how much one hates them.

[@tadeuszczernia5422]

I remember talking to some Polish ship-yard workers back in the old days of CCCP. Poland was building ships for sowiet navy and their standard procedure was to remove oil filters to avoid trouble of their getting dirty and causing more work. I think the only difference is that the ships are decades older. Go Ukraine !!!

[@fendermon]

Don't you hate it when filters actually filter stuff. 😂

[@darrendavies7290]

Out of part out of oil sunflower oil no supply no suncream no aircon nothing working must be hell on it that why they set fire to it

[@ArmySigs]

@@fendermon I know! An obvious design flaw

[@fendermon]

@@ArmySigs I usually just cut a hole in the bottom.

[@tadeuszczernia5422]

@@fendermon Only when the stuff stops the oil flow. Just a giant pain in the ass.

[@oldgysgt]

That image of the engine room technician pounding on the gauge says it all.

[@healingmachine9601]

Incompetence is an understatement.

[@tommyodonovan3883]

Peasants

[@paddington1670]

Russia cant afford to maintain all these expensive assets. They really stretched themselves thin on budget, especially on account of them being fully aware of the corruption. The higher rank you are, the more you get to take, not like any of Putin or his cronies arent aware of how thin they stretched the country. It's rather telling when a country pays their police officers the same as a medical doctor, oppression is the priority.

[@mis4nthr0p3]

@@tommyodonovan3883 Being poor doesn't make them incompetent. Being untrained and undereducated does and that responsibility falls on those nominally in charge. Higher ups in the rankings, both in the government and military don't value their people and view them as expendible. So why should conscripts care?

[@michaelpatrick6840]

I was in the USN during the late ‘80’s and served on board an aircraft carrier. Just looking at the state of this ship from not a lot of video all I can say is wow. To me their is absolutely no discipline. It’s no wonder the Russian military is a joke.

[@dewiz9596]

Having worked with a few Russians. . . “The typical response of a Russian to a technical problem” struck a chord. . .

[@dejjal8683]

Having experienced Soviet consumer electronics as a kid I can tell you that percussive maintenance worked quite well.

[@hegemonycricket9549]

Those are analog guages. Giving it a tech tap is not a bad initial move when it may be malfunctioning.

[@h8GW]

@@dejjal8683 Makes me glad most of our stuff is Made In China, despite all the bitching that may cause, and not Made in Russia. Then again, if all our stuff was MiR, it would have probably gradually improve over the last couple of decades. But probably not as much as MiC.

[@ritemolawbks8012]

Hopefully, you can sleep comfortably at night knowing that with the post-Cold War limitations on nuclear warheads, the Russians only have the capability to kill all surface life on earth one hundred times over.

[@ritemolawbks8012]

@@h8GW That "Made in China" stuff is just where they use cheap labor to do final assembly. The supply chain is around the world, including in the US where the quality control is much higher and it's done with high levels of automation. If the semiconductors were completely made in China, an iPhone wouldn't last a week.

[@armandomercado2248]

About a week before the special operation began, there were news reports all Russian subs in port were ordered to sea. The subs were in port for routine maintenance and resupply, which was cut short. Wonder what condition they are in.

[@horacepinker6578]

As a submarine 100% ... as a surface vessel that is an optional extra that was being fitted at the time.

[@jannejohansson3383]

Maybe kursk tell ya. That surviving war is a thing, even no one try to shoot your vessel. At least is a thing in soviet russia.

[@davidzachmeyer1957]

Not great, not terrible.

[@davidclaudy4822]

My father was in the sun fleet from 52 till 71. He is the only survivor of the Scorpion, that went down and lost all hands. He would have died also, but was put ashore, as he was bleeding from hemorrhoids. The US Navy thought him a liability and put him off the boat. Do you think the former Soviet Navy or today’s Russian Navy would do the same??? I think not. That sailor would have had to die. Never thought such an ignoble health problem would save my dad’s life, but there you have it. I have no confidence in the Russian Navy and even less for its Army. Slava Ukraine 🇺🇦

[@rxonmymind8362]

@@horacepinker6578 I heard the Russians are bailing water in the submarine into the toilet. 🤣

[@cavejohnson8665]

Never been in the US Navy, but when I was on the USS Midway museum in San Diego, one thing I notices was that every spare square of space on the corridors was used for damage control and firefighting equipment of some sort. The US Navy seems to be obsessed with damage control. This is probably from the experience in WWII where ships took incredible punishment and stayed either stayed in the fight or quickly returned to it. You may note that the Moskva and earlier the Sheffield sunk from one or two hits from cruise missiles. The USS Stark was a smaller vessel (Perry class frigate) and took an Exocet to the hull and stayed afloat, if not in the fight. The USS Cole, a Spruance class destroyer, took an arguably bigger punch in port and lived to fight another day due to extremely dedicated and competent damage control work. We will probably never know much about the final moments of the Moskva an their crew, but I doubt they would match the US Navy in damage control, an overlooked but critically important element of seamanship.

[@kevincrosby1760]

What you don't pick up from the museum is that you can go on the mess decks of a US Navy ship during a meal, pick any 6 random sailors (including the cooks), and tell them that they are now a hose team. They WILL be able to properly don their breathing gear and competently get water on a fire.

[@Scott11078]

As an HT in the USN from 1998-2004, and not to make this a long post no one will read anyway. Being the Number one Attack team leader for the USS Kitty Hawks Flying Squad I'm probably the most experienced post ww2 sailor in the seldom talked about art of damage control. Watching the video from that missile boat was mind numbing. It brought back a memory of an old saying about a group of a bunch of inept sailors collectively trying to accomplish a very basic task and failing. A bunch of monkeys trying to fuck a football. And FFS it's called stow for sea but I guess that's one of the many closely held secrets of the Western navies. I don't even want to get started on underway replenishment.

[@datadavis]

Noone read it anyway

[@transvestosaurus878]

Please do, I'm interested!

[@wickedcabinboy]

@@datadavis - at least 23 no ones did.

[@datadavis]

@@wickedcabinboy Nah they just scrolled and drooled

[@davidkruger6379]

After 20 years of commissioned US Navy Service serving in the "Gator Navy", two WWII Tin Cans, and two Carriers, I was appalled at the condition of that Russian ship. The old San Diego - Coronado ferry boat was far more ship-shape. As the Damage Control Assistant in USS Constellation (CVA-64) where the "Flying Squad" of firefighters was first set up and used to keep from calling the ship to General Quarters for a fire in a trash can, as was the general method in those days, we stressed personal responsibility for shipboard safety. Something the Russians have yet to learn. Then in three years as a Department head at the Damage Control Schools, Treasure Island, CA I had the opportunity to install some of the lessons we learned in "Connie" into the curriculum for both the "A" School students and future DCAs. Hopefully over the years these lessons saved lives.

[@garkmr6200]

We were never allowed to walk around without our uniform. Even the guys in the engine room needed to have their undershirts on. That ship was trashed.

[@raugasai9135]

This reminded me of a scene from the 1998 movie Armageddon, where the Russian cosmonaut Lev started hitting a malfunctioning machine aboard the space shuttle with a wrench, saying that's how they fix things in Russia 😂 so it's really true 🤣

[@jacqueschouette7474]

I thought the same thing. 😂😂😂😂😂

[@wilfdarr]

Also, their drones are "all made in Taiwan". 😂🤣😂🤣

[@victorfinberg8595]

I was going to say the same thing.

[@FLJBeliever1776]

@@victorfinberg8595 - Well... Incredibly, most of their Guided Munitions use Made in America core components that Russia has never... produced a day in its existence. So... No more Guided Munitions for Russia.

[@victorvance2573]

Han Solo style!

[@johndittmer8488]

I'm a retired US Navy officer. No American Sailor would be allowed in engineering spaces out of uniform like that. It would be too easy for them to get massive severe burns in a peacetime accident, never mind a mass casualty incident during combat. In addition, the conditions of the stanchions and lifelines would never be tolerated. From what I can see, it's like one safety hazard after another.

[@johndittmer8488]

I just realized, if those guys are wearing bathing suits made of polyester material, it's going to melt on them.

[@hertzwave8001]

would you rather be with these guys or on an LCS during wartime?

[@kevincrosby1760]

Agreed. The only places I can remember that being acceptable onboard my ship would have been berthing, the weight room, and perhaps Sunday afternoon on the 04 level aft. We won't mention open hatches, gear on deck, trash on deck, and an apparent lack of lighting in the passageways.

[@queeg3353]

Tapping gauges ... another sign of a well run and maintained engine room

[@MarttiSuomivuori]

You hit it until it shows a number that pleases you or the glass breaks.

[@jimdennis2451]

Never tap a gauge harder than you would tap the bridge of your nose.

[@dougerrohmer]

I used to be a aircraft instrument guy back in the tick tock days. Part of the trick was to reassemble the instrument in a way that things didn't change when you tapped it. No friction.

[@lycossurfer8851]

So the spirit of the Kamchatka lives on I see

[@Jtretta]

Do you see torpedo boats?

[@michaelsommers2356]

@@Jtretta No, but there are plenty of missile boats out there.

[@50megatondiplomat28]

I thought the tech looked distinctly 1980's in temporal placement. I think that the ridiculously humid and hot direction room they were in probably had the equipment malfunctioning due to the near 100% humidity. That's an inexcusable design flaw or an inexcusable state of disrepair. I think the training levels of the personnel seemed rather incomplete. When the older sailor comes in, he starts performing tasks without taking over for anyone. Its as if no one knew what his job was but him, and if he isn't on duty, his job just isn't being done. None of the rest of the crew in the film even looked like they had even the slightest idea of what they should be doing. Its as if they're just there to pass the time of a "sentence". The "Ossa M" seemed a little herky-jerky, as if it wasn't working quite correctly. IDK, maybe I'm looking into too far. My overall impression is that this thing just sailed out of 1985, and even in '85, this ship is regarded as "beat". I feel bad for these Russian conscript lads. I'm wayyyy more on the Ukraine side, but I just hate to see wasted human lives in general, and I feel like these Russian lads are having their lives wasted as conscripts in an unjust war that they are neither equipped or trained for properly. Slava Ukraini! And God help us all in these mad, mad times.

[@cariopuppetmaster]

The Moscow was built in the 1980s

[@geob0324]

Looks like a number of guard rail posts are missing or damaged at <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="407">6:47</a>. The disrepair is consistent with all else seen here. No - this crew would not hang around to fight a close-quarter fire. They don't even have uniforms let alone fire-fighting gear.

[@robertmaybeth3434]

For sure they're heading for the nearest hatch and jumping overboard, using the empty vodka bottles as a flotation devices...

[@SubBrief]

Good video and commentary. Well done, sir.

[@philvanderlaan5942]

Motto of the Russian navy since 1904 ‘ Do you see torpedo boats? ‘ kzbin.info/www/bejne/b37HmpJ8nZ6Sd8k

[@swaghauler8334]

Considering that Russian COMMERCIAL ships have broken in half and sunk AT ANCHOR (the MV Arvin Moment, posted right here on KZbin) because of poor maintenance, why should the Russian Navy be any different?

[@mrb.5610]

@@cuchidesoto2686 A 40 year old ship is going to be well past its prime both in design and life expectancy. A yet it was the do called 'flagship' - a bit sad really.

[@MrJimtimslim]

@@mrb.5610 there are actually many many ship of that age throughout the world's navies including that of the US, UK Japan etc. With refits and regular maintenance its not a problem. But for the flag ship of a fleet to be that old and poorly maintained....yh that's rare for premium navies that which Russia purports to be. Seemingly not

[@cactuslietuva]

@@MrJimtimslim Moskva from 1990 till 2000 was basically abondoned cause lack of funding. Of course it was modernized, but how much of that money got stolen away is anyone's guess.

[@milferdjones2573]

@@cactuslietuva More refit not modernized as it got no new systems just it's old systems were brought back to working.

[@RReese08]

Interesting and shameful state of affairs on what's supposed to be one of the most capable navies in the world. But the shame is all on Russia's Navy and the country's leaders. Having an active fighting warship in "ship shape condition" is more than just a phrase, it's a vital philosophy and practice that means the difference between life and death, victory and defeat on the water. Obviously, the Russian navy doesn't care about its ships and those who serve aboard them. They will continue to pay in blood and treasure until somebody in Moscow with a brain decides to stop the illegal aggression against Ukraine and leave as soon as possible. Slava Ukraini!

[@jjhead431]

Interesting. I read that a battleship given on loans in lieu of reparations to the Soviets came back with turrets stuck in train, having not been used in the years they were on loan. The USS Milwaukee, CL-5, was in extremely poor shape when returned by the Soviets in 1949. The Russians seem to have a history of poor operations and maintenance of their ships.

[@Max-bk6ej]

Героям слава!

[@paddington1670]

Just one bullet, from one brave Russian

[@fredsas12]

I don't understand why people have this idea that the Russians "one of the most capable" at anything. The Russian approach to most things is "spamming" lots of low quality stuff that looks great on paper, whilst reminding everyone of their nuclear weapons.. By this approach the North Koreans are also one of the most capable militaries in the world as well..

[@arizonaexplorations4013]

@@jjhead431 It was HMS Royal Sovereign, a R Class battleship. The British loaned her to the USSR to protect their Arctic convoys from the surface raiders. When the British got her back in 1949, they discovered that no maintenance had ever been done and it appears she never fired her main guns. The main turrets were frozen in place and she was barely seaworthy. This was despite the fact the Germans engaged her at least TWICE. In the first engagement the Germans got a spread of torpedos on her but they were duds. Most exploded just before the ship.

[@georgem7965]

I recall an evaluation from the '80s that said that in the event of a full on conflict between the USN/NATO navies and the Soviet Navy that the Soviets ships would have a very exciting and very short life. As noted here the USN can have its own problems, as any large organization will, but it appears that the Russian Navy is orders of magnitude ahead on disfunction, traing, reliability, damage control, discipline, etc.. Historically, the Soviet/Russian attitude is that human resources (soliers and sailors) are as expendable as any other commodity like fuel or ammunition. Very different from the western philosophy that it is easier to replace things than trained people.

[@sjonnieplayfull5859]

The Russians solved this problem by giving their people less training, making it much easier to replace them.

[@FLJBeliever1776]

You mean like when we lost three Heavy Cruisers at Savo Island? Followed by a few Light Cruisers here and there. Then a couple of Carriers? Plus lots and lots of Aircraft. My grandfather was on PBY Catalinas in the South Pacific and was assigned to the Cactus Air Force on Guadalcanal. His job was a Navigator, but his plane had the mission of Search and Rescue. As soon as the planes went up, his followed. The one time he was shot down, he landed feet dry. Unfortunately, they were in range of fixed IJA Anti-Air. Incredibly, they landed mostly safe. My grandfather was nicked in the hand by flak. After that, I really don't know much. I only know so much through my family, chiefly my uncle. My grandfather was removed from the Navy just short of his Admiral's star during the Reagan Administration and didn't survive the 1980s, dying in 1989.

[@sjonnieplayfull5859]

@@FLJBeliever1776 I'm sure they changed nothing in those 80 years and the US Navy will be as helpless as they were that night.

[@FLJBeliever1776]

@@sjonnieplayfull5859 - Those losses played a key and pivotal role in shaping US Navy regulations. In the loss of one Light Cruiser, the ship had been accidentally and grossly oversupplied with emergency lanterns. The end result was a startling loss of less than 100 men from that ship, despite being severely damaged. Thanks to the overabundance in those emergency lanterns. Nearly the entire crew escaped with their lives in a timely matter and were swiftly rescued. Afterwards, the US Navy ordered more such lights added to ALL of its ships. They've been standard ever since. Then there was allocation of the Watch. Before, the Watch Officers were posted wherever there was need for a Watch Officer. After Savo Island, the US Navy adopted the Royal Navy practice of posting Watch Officers to their normal assignments. That meant an Engineer was down in Engineering rather than up on the bridge. As one person put it, the US Navy no longer played musical chairs on their ships. Other developments followed. Some Pre-WW2 actions remain to this day. They were just Common Sense regulations that continue to work. Others were tested and found desirable. In one notable case, the US Navy did away with Dead Reckoning well before WW2. It was called the Honda Point Disaster in which an entire Destroyer Squardron was wiped out when it ran ashore due poor navigation, but that was also plaguing the entire West Coast. The Great Kanto Earthquake had messed up the Pacific Ocean's wave action and so many ships became disoriented despite charts and research that should have provided them with improved navigation via dead reckoning. The second Destroyer Squadron BEHIND the first group, though, had been using Radio Direction Finders. Both Squadrons had RDFs installed, but it was not considered a proven technology by most mariners at the time. Including Naval Officers of most Navies, so in that case, the US Navy wasn't the only one ignoring RDF. But, the officer in command of the second Squadron DID trust RDF and realized the ships were sailing right into California. He promptly ordered a course adjustment and saved his Squadron. After discovering that numerous ships up and down the West Coast were smashing into Washington, Oregon, AND California, the world realized that Dead Reckoning couldn't be trusted, but RDF could and so the mariners and Naval forces the world over happily adopted it. If anything is wrong with the US Navy today, it's purely in leadership.

[@sjonnieplayfull5859]

@@FLJBeliever1776 I think I misunderstood your first post, to me it felt like you were claiming the US Navy was as bad as the Russian Navy. In that light my post was rather cynical. Now I get your point: you lost ships and learned how to keep the men alive while doing so.

[@edl653]

You are spot on with your comments. I say this having experience from the opposite side, knowing and seeing how ships are run and maintained properly.

[@stephenrickstrew7237]

The Village People Ran a tighter ship …. and put on a better show …

[@fendermon]

I'm not going to lie...you're correct :) They were more popular too.

[@mandalorian_guy]

They also wore shirts, except the Chief...he had a open chest leather hide/vest situation going on.

[@stephenrickstrew7237]

@@fendermon do a Rooskie version of “ In The Navy “

[@stephenrickstrew7237]

@@mandalorian_guy And the ship probably reeked of cabbage … and bad plumbing 🪠

[@fendermon]

@@stephenrickstrew7237 I'm on it..

[@nitetrane98]

Tapping on gauges is a time honored snipe technique especially if you are expecting movement one way or the other. Analog gauges have to overcome friction on the dial shaft to initially move. The higher the stress level the more robust the tapping.

[@richardreynolds6398]

Yeah - but he was repeatedly pounding on the panel. I was an ET in the US Coast Guard (which has some older equipment) and that wasn't tapping on a gauge.

[@JoeOvercoat]

“Tapping” 😅😂🤣😂🤣😂🥲😂😅

[@MarcosElMalo2]

@@richardreynolds6398 Yeah, that sort of pounding is more for engaging the warp engines.

[@richardreynolds6398]

@@MarcosElMalo2 Capt Kirkov: "I must have more power, Skotski." Skotski: "Ah 'm poundin' as hahd as Ah can, captain!" Then they tried "reversing the polarity" and the Enterscow blew up. Aaaahahahaha!

[@tzazarizona2676]

This is definanatly the problem with Russian armed forces, discipline is simply an excuse to brutalize not instill cohesion, and a total disregard for prompt and proper repairs is the norm. Having served in the U.S. navy I can tell at a glance that orderliness is not a high priority with the Russian Navy. Don't forget that the USN is a navy that fought in the biggest naval battle in history during WW2, it is a bloodied navy with vast experience, the Russian navy has no where near that kind of history and expertise.

[@FLJBeliever1776]

And don't forget, that many of the SOP was written in places and on ships like Savo Island and USS Arizona.

[@gamewarrior010]

@@FLJBeliever1776 don't forget the Forestal and the early super carriers that caught fire

[@FLJBeliever1776]

@@gamewarrior010 - That was less with the design and more with other factors. Many of which were later corrected, so yeah. There were those. Seemed like the US Navy had a Carrier on fire once a year. Plus there was the Belknap Fire. Still can't believe an entire superstructure melted and the US Navy has decided to try again with Aluminum ships.

[@milferdjones2573]

In non wooden ship days. Russian Navy did perform OK vs Sweden back in wooden ship days but that in part a legacy of Peter the Great who created both the Russian Navy and Russians actually sailing ships and Peter insisted on bringing in lots of other countries experts to build that navy. But in steel days it sad. Conditions for crew on one Russian ship so bad it was key part of starting first revolution in it's mutiny.

[@Pete2635]

The missile launcher looks like something out of Thunderbirds! My mistake. The Thunderbirds one would have operated much better. Just saying.

[@calvinhobbes7504]

Excellent insight, sir. Thank you! I didn't know those missiles were struck down in the nose-down position! Not like the US MK 10 launchers at all - somebody would have to turn that missile around below deck? No WONDER those guyz are so hozed up! :) I noticed how poor their engine control room lighting was, too .... no EEBDs ... no flash hoods ... beating on the gauges .... sheesh, what a way to run an airline! :) Actually, if those guys *ran* an airline, I'd be taking the train! :)

[@JoeOvercoat]

If the rocket goes off being stowed nose down is actually a good thing. That said it looks like a steam punk a version of a launcher the way it was yanking around

[@craiga2002]

If they ran an airline, I'd hide in the basement! Permanently!

[@calvinhobbes7504]

@@JoeOvercoat I had seen that class ship through the big eyes once .... figured the dual-arm launcher was a copy of the US MK 13 (one-armed bandit) - Never seen a strike-down though. Quite a surprise.

[@milferdjones2573]

It was never a good idea to fly SOVIET commercial air.

[@calvinhobbes7504]

@@milferdjones2573 I have heard that the soviets hid a LOT of Aeroflot accidents in the Soviet era .... we'll never know how many were killed.

[@cra83]

I’m an Ex-royal navy engineer/DC and firefighter and I think you hit the nail on the head! That boat is in an awful material state (fault hydraulics, engine running like shit, lack of repairs) and the crew are a bunch of scran bags: no discipline, leadership or any clue where their action station should be and what do do, if they did know… probably hadn’t been paid for months, to be fair!

[@arctic_haze]

It must have been hot and humid under the deck which the "uniforms" seem to confirm. I think this caused some electric problems which the chief mechanic tried to solve the Russian way. One of the problems here is the lack of air-conditioning on this ship (and I guess on most if not all other Russian warships).

[@ironcito1101]

Such an environment would also be bad for the crew. Lower morale, physical exhaustion, and so on. I imagine that other things (food, showers, beds, communication with family, etc.) aren't very good either. Plus having to deal with unsafe, unreliable equipment all day.

[@MarttiSuomivuori]

A nice insight. Thank you. Sorry for the young men who lost their lives or were evacuated with serious injuries because of the incompetence of their superiors, the corruption of the command chain and the backwardness of their country. Blyat!

[@wilfdarr]

They've had 30 years to rise up against the kleptocrats: I find it difficult to find any sympathy. How many Ukrainians were the sailors on this very ship responsible for killing? Conscripts or not, if Trudeau conscripted me tomorrow he'd not get a response: if one of his goons came looking for me, you bet he'd get a response. You make your own destiny: if you willingly serve a dictator, that's on you.

[@SteamCrane]

The destroyed fence rails are just aft of the antiship missile launchers. Apparently some of the missiles were launched, and the back blast destroyed the lifelines and stanchions. In overall photos of the ships, you can see that the topsides curve outboard aft of the missiles, to deflect the blast, and that they are scorched in the video. Given that these missile ships were to be on suicide missions, such damage is probably accepted. Note that the Chief Engineer is played by James Gandolfini, in one of his final roles.

[@JoeOvercoat]

Thank you for that insight. I was wondering if it was storm damage.

[@dave.of.the.forrest]

The key question for me is wtf were the captain and his officers doing on this ship to allow this situation?

[@dough6759]

Drunk!

[@wilfdarr]

Vodka shots?

[@edwardblair4096]

The Captain as a single person has to work within the system he finds himself in. The quality of the men he is given as crew, the quality of the ship and maintenence allocated to him, etc. Not to mention that there are probably political and "good old boy" corruption aspects as well. Rock the boat too much and you are either removed from command, or never be made Captain in the first place.

[@OverlordShamala]

I was assuming that Moskva may had a volley more then 2 Neptune anti-ship missiles fired toward it. Intercepted but these 2 that hit the ship. But seeing this incident with Georgia, seeing the crew operating & their system not in good working order. It may be correct only 2 were launched & Moskva failed to defend itself.

[@donaldpetkus1637]

I note that the launcher being stowed had rails for two missiles but only one was mounted

[@horacepinker6578]

One out of two aint bad, one out of six is russian roulette.

[@fendermon]

I was waiting for them to lower the missile into the deck while it was sideways. 😂

[@Chasmodius]

This was post-battle. They might have launched one off, even if only to make it seem like they were doing something? I'm sure they're very expensive, though, so maybe not.

[@markm6488]

The other one might have fallen off when the guy was banging on the control panel, maybe that's what blew the side rail off of the ship.😅

[@KuDastardly]

I think there's a good reason as to why missile turret systems were going out of style in favor VLS. And we can definitely see it.

[@AstridinGeorgia]

I've really enjoyed your videos analyzing the sinking of the Moskva. I'm really looking forward to the next videos that you mentioned.

[@goutvols103]

Perhaps the cruiser Moskva was a high maintenance vessel that was not highly maintained.

[@Hierax415]

It's interesting to point out this same thing was a problem all the way back to the original nobles of Russa who were obligated to provide an army to the Tsar in exchange for land. They would do everything in their power to provide the cheapest equipment and the least productive serfs they had in order to keep themselves wealthy.

[@mikethespike7579]

They still have analogue gauges! The last time I saw something like that on any equipment must have been 40 years ago. I'm not surprised the guy was thumping them. They tend to stick after about 20 years of use and should be changed before then. No doubt this didn't happen on this ship.

[@norahc.]

There are benefits to analog guages. Often times they're more reliable since there are fewer components to go wrong, and once you get to know were the needle is supposed to be you can tell if reading is out of spec by a simple glance instead of having to read a number and then try to remember what the allowable range is.

[@mikethespike7579]

@@norahc. I used to work for Siemens designing control panels for all sorts of things such a power stations, steel mills, tin can manufacturing plants and ships. The engineers there told me they were glad to see the backs of analogue gauges. They were very delicate, too much so in rough environments, had moving parts that tend to wear out and get stuck and were unreliable. Digital gauges have none of these shortcomings, they're basically made of a printed circuit, some electronics and a digital display and have no moving parts that can wear out. I agree with you though that it's easier and more comfortable to read an analogue gauge.

[@norahc.]

@@mikethespike7579 provided you have the electrical power available to power the digital indicators, you're correct. Warships don't have the luxury of assuming power is always available to that guage.

[@mikethespike7579]

@@norahc. Of course, digital displays need constant power to work. But if they don't have that power that means the wholes system will anyway be down and then even analogue gauge readings are not going to be of any use.

[@milferdjones2573]

@@mikethespike7579 Should make a analog simulation of digital to make gauge reading better. BUT we have Digital to be taken out by EMP weapons on our ships? What's the back up? I had figured we were running both digital main and analog backups. I can imagine if it all out nuclear war who cares but.

[@trevorgough2286]

This is an excellent video,very informative..more please.

[@bgregg55]

It was a floating bomb. It would probably be just as easy to sink the entire Black Sea fleet & I hope that happens.

[@listerdave1240]

@<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="167">2:47</a> They don't need anti-flash gear, they use SPF100 sunscreen instead.

[@josephivan5094]

I am a us navy vet. There is nothing good here. This blows my mind. So many problems I could not find anything that was correct. I could take anyone off the street and have the same effect. No safety gear (flash gear gas mask etc). Shorts and no shirt, fire is a real risk during combat. apparently no training. No safety measures for the crew ( open hatch with nothing to keep you from falling in trip hazards. It doesn't look at all like general quarter's. It looks like a coke and smoke . This video gives me a headache.

[@MrScrofulous]

It gives me hope.

[@John-qq3wp]

I find it really hard to believe that the men on board the russian flag ship the pride of Moscow were a bunch of green horn conscripts. That flagship is expensive and to not use your best sailors on it, the ones that can maximize the ships capabilities seems bonkers to me. Could also explain why it was so easily sent to the buttom of the sea though

[@dougerrohmer]

Maybe those ARE their best sailors...

[@sanfordberg4880]

I boarded a large Antonov cargo aircraft in the early 2000’s. It had dropped off cargo and the crew had disembarked. The aircraft looked great from 100’ away but a closer look revealed cord showing on many tires. The cockpit looked “early ‘60’s” with about 8 seats. The radar scope operator looked like he was affixed to a diver’s mask. OSHA clearly had never been on an aircraft like this. No handrails, no pressurization between the cockpit and the loadmaster position in the tail. One aft bathroom was inop and the second was barely habitable. Again, looked formidable from a distance; not so much up close.

[@wickedcabinboy]

@Sanford Berg - Somewhere on YT there exists cockpit video of the An 225 in flight. It looked like it had been built during WW2 and never upgraded.

[@longyu9336]

<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="194">3:14</a> The Chief has just been informed that requisitioned vodka stores were not loaded at port. This discovery shakes him to the bone. Already low crew morale threatens to diminish further to unsustainable levels. He will say nothing, but the look on his face reveals the grim truth to his comrades.

[@lairdcummings9092]

Maintaining material condition in a good state of readiness requires both money and a culture of dedication. Both appear to have been lacking in the modern Russian navy.

[@martincday007]

It would seem incredulous and demonstrate incompetence that a Captain of cruiser would not while at sea put his crew to work maintaining the ship, just on the basis that it is free labour and the devil finds work for idle hands. The broken ship rail is not only dangerous but not a good public look. The Moskva was by all accounts well defended from missile attack, the theory that a drone distracted the crew while a missile was fired from the other direction just seems too simple. Based on this footage, the Russian navy looks like conscripts who have no idea what they are doing there and the Russians would seem lucky that they have so far only lost two ships and it actually gives more credibility for the Russia claim that the loss of the Moskva was the result of a fire in an ammunition store.

[@victorfinberg8595]

No, it looks as though the Slava SAMS are incapable of engaging sea-skimming missiles.

[@ristorantanen5769]

Russia is proned to having bad luck Especially while thinking

[@pierohermadones1877]

Personally I have had a lot to do with military ships and on some occasions also with units of Soviet origin. My basic impression has always been to observe floating "jars" full of weapons, equipment with crews too numerous for the size of their ships. However "impressive" they might appear, for example the Slava-class cruisers, I never had the feeling that they were really well-finished ships in terms of design but certainly lacking in the aspects of "passive safety". Furthermore, having had the opportunity to see something firsthand, the shape and distribution of the interior spaces, the liveability in general and the lack of really effective air management systems in my opinion severely limited some operational characteristics. The Moskva, a unit that I saw when it was still called "Slava", reminded me of the construction philosophy of the T34 type tanks, powerful but not made to last beyond their mission and in the case of the Moskva it would have been a matter of trying to approach the target (maybe an aircraft carrier ..?) to be able to launch the sixteen anti-ship missiles (as big as buses) and then hope to get away with the opponent's reaction. Basically an almost suicidal tactic that is substantially confirmed if we consider the constructive criterion and the very limited ability to deal with emergency situations on board. Regarding what happened in the Black Sea ... personally I cannot at all exclude that it could also have been an occasional accident but I am quite certain that the ship's navigation attitude was not at all what we could have observed on a NATO unit in the war zone. Maybe I'm wrong but I assume that on board the Moskva they sailed a little too "quietly" 🤔

[@OOpSjm]

Moskva was a Black Sea "holiday cruiser" .

[@pierohermadones1877]

@@OOpSjm I am very perplexed by the story and I do not know if we will ever know how and what really happened. The only thing I really hope is that the ship did not carry atomic warhead weapons that may have been damaged 😶

[@robkunkel8833]

Welcome to another episode of 📽Trailer Park Boys …. this week, “The Boys Go To War”

[@folgore1]

Great vid! A unique way of getting at what may have been involved in the sinking of the Moskva. Things to remember: she was commissioned in 1983 and was a very old ship. All her contemporaries in the US Navy have long since been decommissioned. Add to that, the Russians lacked the money to replace her and probably didn't upgrade her much since she was recommissioned. As to the video footage, absolutely no excuse for the guard rails not being repaired. Responsible leadership would get something done. I wonder how many families received the sad news that their loved one fell overboard and was lost at sea? All these factors make it almost seem plausible that the ship was sunk by some sort of accident rather than from Ukrainian missiles. As to the shirtless wonders that crewed the corvette, a question for navy vets: how hot does it get inside a ship, particularly near the engine room? I imagine that US and all Western naval ships have air conditioning. That, however, might be something that wasn't standard on old Soviet warships. If Russian ships are like Russian tanks, the priority goes to giving the platform the strongest armament possible while crew comfort is always a secondary concern.

[@Shaun_Jones]

I don’t have any firsthand navy experience, but I’ve read that it’s quite common for sailors to wear as little as they can get away with when they aren’t on duty. In combat, however, they do have to wear their uniforms and other gear.

[@Sugarsail1]

Russian official story is: They ran out of vodka so Captain just said "Scuttle her and abandon ship, Ukraine had nothing to do with it." Russian people, "Totally believable and understandable."

[@michaelbmaxwell1640]

Why is it smoking so badly? Indication of bad repair state of the engines. I'm not familiar with gas turbines, but if our steam-propelled ship was smoking like that, the captain would have had the chief engineer on deck faster than you could say 1MC.

[@kevincrosby1760]

A gas turbine is basically a stationary jet engine. That level of smoke would not be acceptable from a GT ship in the US Navy. It's a given that you should have a lot more control over the combustion process in a gas turbine than you would with a few burners stuck in a boiler face. Other than for a minute or two after lightoff, I never saw smoke from our stack either. I do believe that the BTs found visible smoke to be unprofessional.

[@thomasromanelli2561]

The video of the Russian sailors suggests another, more nuanced interpretation. Rather than a blatant indictment of the lack of crew discipline, were the crew simply attempting to continue their assigned duties in an area where the environmental controls were malfunctioning? I can only imagine how poorly the air exchange could be below deck in an enclosed compartment where the AC doesn't work. The Moskva is more than 40 years old, and based upon the publicly demonstrated lack of field maintenance for many of the vehicles that spear-headed the Ukraine invasion, one can plausibly assume that naval vessels (even flagships) may have suffered from similar disrepair. There was likely a poorly coordinated damage control response to the subsequent fires that prompted an early evacuation. So while I agree that the general crew training requirement was deficient, these images merely reinforce the limits of older, inadequately maintained equipment. As a comparison, when one considers the fire that ultimately resulted in the loss of the USS Bonhomme Richard (at its berthing pier, no less!) the findings of the inquiry found a shocking lack of damage control capabilities in the current USN. There were multiple failures across the entire chain of command that included poor training and coordination to mount an effective response with all available fire-fighting assets. I think it's perfectly reasonable to criticize the capabilities (or lack thereof) of what should be a premier naval power, but it's equally important to remember the USN has many problems of its own (and not just the BR ship fire, but a number of fatal collisions during recent years, and all of these incidents occurred during "peacetime").

[@andrewtaylor940]

Lack of AC or no, here’s a well known truth, learned through two world wars at sea. The simplest way to avoid unnecessary casualties aboard ship, when going into combat, is to insure everybody is wearing shirts (ideally long sleeved) and pants (long) plus proper shoes. This is your first and simplest barrier of fire protection. In WW2 it was often the difference between surviving an encounter or horrible disfiguring burns or death. A Navy going into combat in just shorts, is an ill prepared, badly trained Navy.

[@samuelweir5985]

"....were the crew simply attempting to continue their assigned duties in an area where the environmental controls were malfunctioning?" Possibly. But then there is also the matter of certain crewmen just standing around with bewildered looks on their faces in a battle situation and the crewman who was banging on the control panel in an apparent attempt to get the gauges to work. The whole atmosphere in that control room seems amateurish and completely unlike the professional, disciplined atmosphere that I've seen in US and other navy vessels (e.g., UK, France, Japan, etc.) where every crewman is at his station and knows exactly what his role is in a battle situation.

[@arizonaexplorations4013]

There is a video of one of the Iowa class battleships coming under missile fire during the Gulf War. Watch that video and this one back to back and see if you notice any difference.

[@jimdennis2451]

What? 1. There is no AC during GQ. You are always stewing in your own juices... and they don't wash the gear that often, so it stinks. 2. You cannot compare a ship that was tagged out for shipyard availability to wartime steaming.

[@thomasromanelli2561]

@@arizonaexplorations4013 There is a marked difference in the crew appearance between the two ships, but I would caution against applying too much significance of the lack of shirts with overall competence (although there is a strong tendency to see the correlation between poor discipline and general incompetence). The videos of the incident involving USS Missouri against two separate Iraqi anti-ship missiles (based on a Chinese design) are themselves very telling, and serve to underscore my previous point. The appropriately-uniformed and disciplined battleship crew can do nothing against the fact that the A6 Intruders that spotted the missile launch plume couldn't report their finding to the BB command. It's actually HMS Gloucester that identifies the missile and prepares to engage. It's also the first time that a ship fires a missile to strike down another missile. The next day, a similar missile threat sees USS Missouri firing off chaff to deflect potential missile locks, and then the Vulcan CIWS installation of screening destroyer USS Jarrett fires upon USS Missouri because the targeting radar misinterprets the chaff as an active threat. It fires again when Missouri launches another chaff cloud before someone manually disengages the CIWS. While the US crews depicted in these videos appear to be disciplined, there's still the significant challenges of poor communication, inadequate situational awareness and mechanical issues (targeting radar misinterpreting data). Had the US crews been shirtless, one could have mistakenly attributed a near disaster to the assumption of incompetence.

[@philippedefechereux8740]

Stunning! Thank you!

[@SocalSamStokes]

Out of uniform in combat? No shirt on? Even the Chief Engineer? WTF. I realize the Black Sea is a warm sea, but no shirts or long pants during combat. Wow.

[@mikehankins4513]

Being on the weather decks in the north atlantic with the state of those handrails would be insane..

[@jimdennis2451]

"Aw shiat... there went Yuri. Damn, I liked him."

[@fratercontenduntocculta8161]

I also did want to say that I'm deeply ashamed of the most prevalent fact of how poorly Russia treats her defenders. They literally sent them to die in a foreign country with no plan of bringing them home safely. I'm most curious as to what will happen with Russia in the coming year.

[@netowl3922]

Agree completely. Most of us us vets can only sit back, eat popcorn and watch the comedy of errors by the Russians

[@wilfdarr]

"Defenders" is an interesting way of putting it after they were the belligerents in this conflict, and specifically the roll they had in Snake Island: that's not the roll of a "Defender".

[@milferdjones2573]

@Alan Lewis Oh they got their act together during the war, had to the aid only a sixth or less of the production. And they were not as decayed as now many still believing in the system the crippling killing of the best leadership the major problem start of war. Tends to be the Russians pattern suck till it eats them then reform do better and then slowly decay again. Not patriotic fever certainly helped in WWII. Their tactics still depend on losing a lot of men even when they have every thing working right.

[@MG-Nordster]

What i gathered from that video is that the only things that are missing (at least not in view) are the fishing poles and the beer keg! It reminds me of a bunch of young guys out having a good time in warm weather on a fishing boat!... If US Navy goes to war against Russian Navy, we don't need Harpoons, all we need is launch some beer kegs at them, and send a boat full of bikini clad girls right after it. Russian military ineptitude and inferior equipment has been on full display. China, are you watching?? Now don't you regret copying (stealing) design plans for their equipment?

[@user-dv8ge8hf1o]

If you can't get your people to wear their dammed uniforms how do you expect them to obey the laws of ground combat?

[@robadamson1]

If the surface fleet is in this state what is the likelihood the strategic forces are any better?

[@lexwaldez]

The army, the air force and the navy are in embarassing states of disrepair. Although we can't assume strategic rocket forces are similarly crippled, I'd think it's very likely.

[@kristianhartlevjohansen3541]

@Steven Strain By observation, “most of their money” go into mega yachts … 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@OOpSjm]

Strategic missile forces are too of the food chain. Everyone else gets the crumbs.

[@DKBarie]

Off topic, but the video made me shudder to think about the current state of Russia's nukes, especially their subs...

[@stevelawrence7111]

I have no experience of military ships but I would have thought that the missile launcher had provision for two missiles but only one was loaded and ready for use.

[@steveosborne2297]

I assumed that one had been fired and they never bothered to reload

[@lorenzwiedemar1837]

With these guys and with such a ship, it's perfectly save to engage a rowing boat. However once the rowing boat is armed with a fishing rod, things will get tense for the Russians.

[@yopenzo]

WE uh ARE WAITING uh FOR THE uh NEXT uh VIDEO!

[@jimnunn9232]

I served on a 25 year old WWII Aircraft Carrier in the South China sea during Vietnam. I can not even call these men sailors. no pride in their duties, uniform or ship. If I were an officer in the Russian Navy I would be very uncomfortable of going in to combat with this level of training.

[@flipper184]

I have some sea time and what is hard when tied up is impossible when underway. And why only one rocket in place? Not in the budget? I also saw power cords on the floor. Marginally OK on a fishing boat but not on a warship.

[@chrislong3938]

Man, I was counter battery radar operator during as one of 'Carter's Heroes' in the '70s and while discipline was crappy as all hell, even then all we did if we weren't in the field, we did maintenance! Everyone, while in the field was shaved, even if showers were unavailble! Disipline, as crappy as it was, was still important and everyone did thier job as assigned! The notion of not having your uniform on was inconcievable and we all did our jobs 'fairly well'! Their were always slackers, but they got siscplined accordingly! Thank god Reagan was elected! Talk about returning pride to the service!

[@milferdjones2573]

I will note the decline was in part started well before Johnson sent things to Vietnam. The atomics decide everything corrupted everything. And adopting business school stuff damaged everything starting in 50's. But Nixon and Ford not good along with Carter but key reforms in leadership started already in 70's well before Reagan. Reagan gave the budget to move it along faster because in many cases the ideas were ready to go but no funding. But same old tell the boss what they want to hear by intelligence services had the SOVIETS a major threat that Reagan was building up for when the SOVIETS actually falling apart. But Reagans build up did cause SOVIETS to try to match it which caused their fall to happen way quicker. So Reagan lucked into that building up for a non existent threat helped. Reagan did though enable the reforms to move forward and funded them so that was very good.

[@whylie74]

The russian navy has a long glorious history of incompetance and disaster due to lack of maintenance.

[@leonpeters-malone3054]

Semi-kinda amateur naval historian. Walked on a few ships in my time, know the language and can kinda speak it. I've seen museum ships in better condition and better cared for. I'm not that bothered about the lack of uniform on deck, if it's cruising, well, that part isn't exactly good practise, it's easy for me to write it off as sailors being sailors. The lack of the safety rails to entire missing sections of, the lack of manning stations during what was called a combat alert, general quarters, that's bothering me. Really bothering me. It's just.... no, you don't do that. That also tracks with the comment I heard of the Moskva/Slava/all other assorted names with the lack of the internal bulkheads. If..... I've seen US/Australian ships and I felt I could barely go five metres without some measure of internal division. The Slava seemed to just have none of it, if the recollections and anecdotes are true.

[@kevincrosby1760]

In combat, that uniform can be the difference between minor flash burns and an incapacitating injury. Besides, history has shown that a crew who acts unprofessional generally is.

[@77thTrombone]

1-dog watertight doors??!!?? Are you kidding? Handrails optional: Standard Rußling, I've come to learn. Looking at that miserable exhaust from the diesel on this boat confirms my suspicions of why _Kuznetsov_ needs *ALL 8* of its boilers replaced. If you can't get a common, every-Siberian-schoolboy-knows, internal combustion engine to run right, you have no hope to fire boilers with residual #6/"bunker C" tar effectively. Obvious to all: That launcher looked like a science project mock-up. No way ready for military service. Yeah it's automatic: the gun boss just needs to control which servos fire when and for how long at each step, and this system will put itself away automatically. That train/tunnel comic was spot on.

[@red.5475]

Incompetence, combined with an obsolescent ship, leaves you open to a missile strike.

[@jimdennis2451]

The ship wasn't necessarily obsolete. It was always built that way.

[@red.5475]

@@jimdennis2451 Her weapons and electronics installations are 40 years old. Her sister, Marshal Ustinov, received a modernization recently, but Moskva did not. Old legacy Soviet equipment.

[@kevinfisher1345]

@@red.5475 "Her weapons and electronics installations are 40 years old." WRONG. First this ship received a major refit in the 90's when it was changed from the Slava to Moskva. That would make the weapons and electronics 2 decades old. This ship also was overhauled many times, which I do not know what all or how much the weapons and electronics were upgraded if at all. But I would guess over time some of it at least was upgraded. For example I would not doubt that the AK-630 CIWS gatling was upgraded to a newer variant at some point. While many of these systems are 40 years old, they have been upgraded (just like many of USN weapon systems and electronics are). A couple of years ago she was also supposed to receive major overhaul of several upgrades (some of which were for its weapons and electronics). That was to extend life span up to 2040. That was being done by Ukraine port funnily enough, except there was a lack of sufficient funds. There are various conflicting reports in how much or how little was done at that time. I even heard one report that claimed Ukraine had installed some of it (like upgrades to its radar) but had stripped it back off when it did not get paid for. So who knows. We also do now that at least some repairs and upgrades were done in Sevastopol last year, but no clue what all was. This is not surprising as military quite often do not report or open admit what all work and upgrades are done. Regardless much of these systems had been upgraded anywhere from a few years ago to twenty years ago. Not the 40 you erroneously claimed.

[@red.5475]

@@kevinfisher1345 Ok, buddy. Regardless, the technology employed on the Moskva was the equivalent of 80's/90's tech on western ships, putting her at a significant disadvantage in a modern conflict. Also, the Russian military is rife with corruption, and Moskva may not have been in peak fighting condition, at the time. Judging by the positions of her armament in the photos seen this far, she made no attempt to engage the Neptune missiles used to sink her. That tells me there may have been issues with her radar suite, among a host if other technical problems.

[@kevinfisher1345]

@@red.5475 I was trained in electronics and weapon systems in the USN. Sorry mate but once again that is simply not true. Those systems IF they were up to date are 21st century. They are not 80's/90's tech on western ships. They were 80's/90's western tech comparable back in the 80's/90's while I was in the USN. They have upgraded all those systems since. And as I am no longer in the USN nor do we publicly know any of their specifics ... trust me they would not spend money upgrading systems for nothing. They likely kept up to a degree but maybe a gen behind the curve would be my guess. But I can tell you for a fact they are NOT 80/90's tech which they had back in the 80/90's. Even minor software upgrades can greatly improve above 80/90's tech levels. The USN has done this (among other hardware upgrades) and I am sure Russia has as well. I will agree about and do question the ships state of readiness and the training of the crew. This is not new, and it appears it has gotten worse since the days of Russia. Because yes clearly something went wrong. And yes I also noted in those brief images and short few seconds of video that from what I can see it does not appear their systems tried to engage at all. Not conclusive as admittedly it is not the greatest of shots, but worrying from what I could tell. That does NOT tell me however that there were issues with its radar. That may or may not have been the case, but it does bring up questions in how operational it was. Knowing radars, there are many other possibilities as well. Training, preparedness, chain of command, operability of defense systems are just some of the main ones. Clearly lack of damage fire control is the only thing clear to me. What puts them at a significant disadvantage is not so much the quality of their tech, it is how Russia functions, maintenance, training and readiness that really would put them at a disadvantage. But that ship SHOULD have been able to handle 2 anti-ship missiles.

[@greenman1411]

It seems that in Russia going shirtless is a sign of being tough. The idea goes all the way to the top.

[@f0rth3l0v30fchr15t]

Well, precussive maintenance is certainly not a terrible option *in the short term* if - for example - the dials on mechanical instrumentation appear to be jammed. But when it's necessary at the beginning of an operational deployment, that could be indicative of much more pervasive issues with maintenance and readiness.

[@wilfdarr]

The number of conscripts announced missing makes me wonder how it was crewed.

[@martenkahr3365]

The lack of visible uniforms and safety equipment might not be because they lack them entirely. It's just as likely that the conscripts in the engine rooms are told by the chief engineer or other officer to not bother wearing the clumsy things on account of unbearable heat; either because the air conditioning system is perpetually malfunctioning or (even more likely) the ship was designed without air conditioning beyond the bare minimum necessary to ensure the sailors wouldn't suffocate. Making design compromises that increase theoretical performance at the cost of forcing conscripted troops to routinely endure terrible conditions or deal with equipment malfunctions that don't directly compromise their firepower (because they had no other choice) is a common theme that runs through many Soviet and post-Soviet Russian designs.

[@victorfinberg8595]

To a certain extent, that's fine. But you still have to wear uniforms. Many armies and navies have fought in hot conditions. So you cut the uniforms back, but you don't run around naked.

[@barneyleseven2854]

Great video!!

[@TheDkeeler]

I wonder if the captain is prancing around in his underwear drunk on vodka?

[@rtqii]

Women's underwear...

[@SwissMarksman]

You know what's disgusting too? The sailor's parents/family/wife don't even get a cent from the Government because the ship didn't got down in a fight but rather sunk in an accident. So therefore no compensation will be provided.

[@mccoybyz1099]

WOW, if this is in fact a sneak peek at the state of readiness and/or the quality of sailors in the present day Russian navy it's shocking and I'd have to say we greatly over estimated their ability to wage conventional (non-nuclear) war! I'd also have to say the US Navy would take the Russian Navy to school! The lack of discipline, organization, no one's manning their posts or readying the ship for battle! These guys would freeze up and die if they were approached and engaged by a US ship like a Burke or Tico!

[@kevincrosby1760]

It's long been assumed that if the Russian Navy were to go head-to-head with the US Navy, the Russians would find the conflict very exciting, very educational, and very short.

[@occamsrazorblades]

I wonder if this is why we have only seen part of the crew of the Moskova. Perhaps many of them lived but are horrifically burned?

[@robkunkel8833]

And the loved ones of the sailors that don’t come home are told that their child died a hero … and then they really hate the state-chosen enemy. Nobody wants to be told that their child died for a nonexistent cause.

[@AstridinGeorgia]

I remember reading an article about a family looking for their son who served on the Moskva and was listed as missing. They went to the hospital to check if he was there. The couple said that there were about 200 sailors from the Moskva with burns. Unfortunately they did not find their son after checking every patient there.

[@fredsmith5473]

We really have no idea what that video showed, apart from roughly a hundred men it was suggested were the crew of the Moskva. None had any signs of burns or injuries. For instance, a ship with a crew of 500 will have more than 500 as a wider crew. There will be reserves, people on shore based administrative duties and so on. They could easily have rounded up enough likely looking types for the video, none of whom were on the ship when it was hit.

[@arctic_haze]

Yes. With internal explosions on a ship, this is the most likely outcome.

[@wilfdarr]

Likely: 28 dead doesn't mean the others wanted to live...

[@mathewkelly9968]

I worked on trawlers for 12 years when asked about the Moskva sinking by family my opinion is even if you believe the Russian versions of events the Russians have serious problems .

[@wintermaryland3619]

I did not see anything that says they have a professional navy

[@thomascooley2749]

Lol vodka not being loaded on board Makes sence why they set fire to the ship now

[@simonjones3863]

What would cause an engineer to design a missile system that stow the missiles upside down?

[@thedausthed]

Vodka

[@rtqii]

The system is fine... The missile is racked backwards.

[@michaelsommers2356]

@@rtqii Every video of that system I've seen has them stowed pointy end down.

[@petersone6172]

I can imagine an event where one or more of those missiles in stored position igniting the propulsion and instead of blasting it’s way through the upper deck and possibly leaving a hole several times it’s diameter, because it’s stored nose down blasting through the missile magazine on its way towards the keel.

[@jimdennis2451]

AUSTRALIANS!!!

[@saldiven2009]

There are some more recent videos on this topic that include information that has come available since the sinking first occurred that are well worth watching. LazerPig's video is pretty informative. That video was done released just a month or so ago.

[@bowlampar]

Sunk a heavily armed cruiser like Moskva is no easy task, no doubt it is a job well done by Ukranian forces. The sinking of such Slava class warship in Black Sea is highly dramatic, and extremely fun to watch.🤗🥰🤗

[@philvanderlaan5942]

The Russian ministry of defense claims the ship was lost to an accidental fire , to point out that anti ship missiles are designed to blow big chunks out of ships , but as seen with USS Stark the HMS Sheffield and the Atlantic Conveyor , missiles tend to start fires What is more embarrassing to admit that you lost a ship to enemy action or to say ‘ we accidentally set a fire and sunk our selves’ The USS Forestall accidentally set its self on fire with live ordinance on deck and didn’t sink. While autopsies revealed that most of the dead had drugs in their systems, it stands to reason that a good amount of the surviving crew were doing drugs as well , if they could save their ship the crew of the Moskva could have saved their ship if it was truly just an accident.