undiscovered start trick ????

Unbelievable as it is, I have just discovered an even faster way to do the start-booster trick that I discovered using methods that I won't yet disclose. It is totally unclear why or how this works. I know it looks simple, but I also know with certainty, that you will never do it if you try: it is not RTA-viable.
I am running a competition for this. All you have to do is get 4.38 on this map
(you can easily recreate this map by yourself, just make sure it goes in the negative X direction):
www.sendspace....
The first person to do it will get 2000cc.
You can use whatever method you want, bruteforcing, precision scripts, try and copy how it looks from this video, whatever. Just no cheating obviously.
There are no tricks, there is no catch. All you have to do is get 4.38.
The run I got was 4.383, so it should be very easy. Good luck.
The competition will end in 7 days, and then I will release the inputs so you can use it in your TASes if you want. Luckily enough, the A04 start goes in the negative X direction, so it should be possible to save another -0.01 there. Something to do in the future...
EDIT (4/2): the competition has been won! Lambda managed (somehow) to replicate this bug and also got a time of 4.383. Does this mean its technically RTA-viable??
Here are the inputs
pastebin.com/v...
JaV

[@vrbaaaa]

I guess the Stadium was badly built and is slightly slanted towards the green billboard.

[@TomGalonska]

Could also be the wind... has anyone checked in which directions the flags go?

[@Humulator]

@@TomGalonska i dont think the car is affected by wind right?

[@stevehall3228]

thats very important info

[@TomGalonska]

@@Humulator Neither is the Stadium tilted :D

[@sheepox573]

French game, french problems

[@AlexanderB41]

Luckily most tmnf maps are unaffected because of the lacking -x start. Correct direction: A04, C08, D11 Wrong: A09, A12, A15, B04, B10, B14, C02, C13, C15, D07, D09, D10, D12, E01, E02 Too lazy to check: C10

[@mditm6966]

wow

[@j5stdave]

c10 wouldnt really have any use of this trick anyway

[@AlexanderB41]

@@j5stdave for the no cut version :p

[@j5stdave]

@@AlexanderB41 still a pretty cool discovery

[@lambda_]

🅱

[@granite_planet]

Position/velocity differences that depend on the global direction you're moving towards have likely something to do with rounding or limited number precision inside the engine. Some calculation might round away from zero when moving one way, and towards zero otherwise.

[@granite_planet]

This brings to mind Quake... Quake 3 performs very aggressive truncation of player velocity to keep nineties network connections happy, which means you'll accelerate faster when moving at certain angles. There might be something similar happening here, although with modern physics engines all data types are kept very precise so any anomalies are absolutely tiny.

[@bhaskr.]

yep

[@14n73x]

or could be because in some cases, like collision detection for example, you have to make arbitrary choice which axis goes first (x most of the time) so it then can lead to different behavior in some edge cases

[@gigigigiotto1673]

you know that trackmania uses floating point for position and direction do you?

[@granite_planet]

@@gigigigiotto1673 Trackmania physics are deterministic - there's most likely at least some fixed point math. And if there are rounding anomalies, they won't care about floating point precision.

[@yoshtm]

Nice ! Did you try to mirror your inputs (right turn instead of left) ? Maybe it will work in the +x direction for some reason..

[@CaptainJellyBS]

That's not a bad call

[@JstAnothrVirtuoso]

Yes, the mirrored inputs do work! Still only for negative x though

[@jonathanstellwag4747]

@@JstAnothrVirtuoso TBH this has to be an expected result :D

[@BigDBrian]

this is pretty much the parody video "trackmania tool assisted speedruns be like" but for real, lmao

[@JstAnothrVirtuoso]

That did run through my mind while making this. And ill be making an even closer real version of the parody video soon

[@Kya10]

@@JstAnothrVirtuoso 👀

[@SkylineTM]

Very cool to see this now as we talked about that kinda stuff a couple of days ago in the trial & rpg discord. There are actually a couple of tricks that only work in one direction of the stadium, which I noticed while building kacky maps for kk7. Very interesting stuff!

[@federicochiesa6308]

Understanding completely TM feels like understanding the rules of the universe

[@EskyIsAlive]

So the trick is to rotate every map and make sure the start faces the green billboard 💀

[@Travixty]

As small as this is, it's so cool to see how far TAS is bringing us. The amount of new mechanics and tricks that no one would think to be possible even a year earlier, is incredible.

[@lambda_]

well this is kinda wild. definitely going for that 4.38!

[@Plastorex]

Why don't you leave bruteforce on for the whole night on A-0? :D

[@Radovanslav]

4,37 poss?????????????????

[@Kya10]

@@Radovanslav Nope, wrong start direction. But maybe there is a 4.388 possible somehow, tho

[@Radovanslav]

@@Kya10 ik, I was memeing... But we can hope :-)

[@sambenmoser1240]

@@Kya10 maybe theres a different set of inputs that have the dame results for other directions

[@helgebremer7603]

The old trackmania will never die. I love it. 😍❤️👍

[@igntuLTM]

damn, sick find! question though, why are you so sure that it doesnt work in the other directions? any input set will have an altered result if you play it on the same blocks rebuilt in another direction, but it doesnt mean there isnt a different input set to do exactly the same thing in this case since the inputs to make your start trick work are so precise it's no wonder it dies since it was so hard to find it for -x direction, is it possible that inputs to do the trick in other directions actually exist but you didn't find them yet? don't know how long you tested that for^^ have you tried doing it on the right? for -x and eventually for the other directions also, does it still work if you keep the same direction but change block's height? and/or use air variation of start block instead of the ground one? aaand what happens if you remove the booster? will it still have a (smaller ofc) lead over the normal start trick or not? that would clarify if the trick works because the car for some reason takes the booster earlier than normal, or if its only about optimal grip on start ramp and the booster only magnifies the gain like on normal start tricks whoops i wrote an essay

[@zzzFaw]

😦

[@Kya10]

A very interesting essay tbh, I'm also interested in all those questions

[@JstAnothrVirtuoso]

The mirrored inputs do work yes. It's totally possible that the bug is possible in other directions with altered inputs. I couldn't know otherwise. Yes it does work at diff heights. It works on a04 for example

[@slightlyobesesalad]

Ok I'll start doing that from now on

[@sigurdvj1274]

Urrrgghh, the Bay music. So nostalgic 😍

[@FrevTM]

Thanks nadeo

[@ChaoticTM]

A04 can be beat

[@x7b642]

wtf nice find

[@Denes2005]

Now do the april fools joke, crash into left wall, triple nosebug into finish

[@Eddyithink]

Omg, is it an x=9 thing?? (Mario Maker players will hopefully understand what I'm talking about ahah)

[@ericdanielski4802]

Nice trick.

[@spaghetto181]

mad stuff. this game has still surprises i see...

[@kefgeru_de_kalos]

Nadeo: - develop differently the speed of tires - develop differently the boost if it's go a certain direction.

[@Radovanslav]

Also nadeo: develop a car that accelerates based on whatever surface the left front wheel is touching.

[@B-nu8ss]

Does it still work if you shift the map in space rather than rotating it? If it's numerical precision, I could imagine that shifting may affect it

[@keroscene545]

Thank you to the one developer that had spaghetti that day

[@PepekBezlepek]

fascinating discovery!

[@apopet]

Meanwhile, I can't even do the old start trick. What input controller are you using?

[@Sir_of_what]

Boost wiggle is a .39 too.. so if i get your start and boost wiggle is a .37 possible? Will try this for Sure!

[@bhaskr.]

cant download it basically connection reset

[@jesse9710]

New wirtual video incoming

[@Arcsinx]

Very impressive !

[@ScorpionNani]

What I do is I go straight forward and do a double tap to both sides right as I reach the turbo so I minimize the turning diagonally distance and the wheel reaches it first, it works better and faster for me

[@synix7311]

i can only get 4.39

[@chpaaussi9606]

It’s realy impossible in RTA ? Or maybe with luck ?

[@Sahl0]

i would if i had trackmania

[@tarkkh9787]

this version is free

[@asmallyoutube]

.383... go for .37

[@bh4vvy33t]

So the trackmania meme is right Edit: question what if you keep doing this with minor adjustments each time

[@IlMerluz]

That's how some tassers do their runs, like xeqzion and andi on fs maps, they just give the tas tool a distance, and check whatever inputs they can do to get the most amount of speed, they do it for little sections for the entire run and get an outcome, its sick actually

[@svk_zoltan]

and why does the usual start boost trick work? does anybody know that?

[@meh3681]

holy javelin

[@arkakyjon]

Very interesting...

[@GamerSams]

ok game on

[@leomeassguen571]

Realized it when hunting a map like a year ago xd

[@crabdos7647]

imagen all the wr that will b broken bc of this xd

[@JuniorBBX]

o.O

[@Kyrelel]

Well, most people I have seen already knew this "trick" - I've even used it myself

[@parpaing_1]

April fool on february 3rd,yes

[@PanterD2S]

Nah, it's just wind ;)

[@kaskipa]

nadeo, why

[@Nicofaster21]

Hahahaha i found this in Tm Turbo just a month ago, a echelon boosting map was just a straight line with boosters and i found out that sligltly steering gave me a boost, i was gonna post it but ultimately i didnt

[@wxbrainiac]

only trackmania players i swear

[@burnticecream7731]

someone used a very similar thing on a01 years ago

[@Pixiltation]

Nice try, tried 100+ times and it didnt work

[@karelbezuidenhout1653]

ANY MEANS? Yo @ JstAnothrVirtuoso can i mabey get your replay of the 4.38... just for looking at

[@leomeassguen571]

This is totally discovered lol

[@IlMerluz]

I'm going to do it by hand, easy 8)

[@F4d1ing_Sh4d0w]

Because … Trackmania 😂👍

[@brionbark]

lol wat

[@zoraa3406]

i remember doing this once and had no clue why i gained -0.02 on wr

[@_qb_]

Mhm

[@Slash1066]

This is why trackmania is annoying, it makes no sense, drifting is faster, straight line isn't faster 🤯

[@tobiasauyero1078]

If this only works in -X then I guess this can be considered as not deterministic

[@BasDirks]

What does determinism necessarily have to do with asymmetry?

[@Mandarin9900]

Maybe you are looking for the word "consistent", but even this is not entirely correct in certain contexts. Deterministic Wirtual viewers

[@PugCuber]

1:39 because… you know… _trackmania_ thanks hylis