John Gray Part I: Revenge of the technocrats

[@craigb4913]

"Populism is a term liberals apply to the political blowback of their policies that they fail to comprehend." John Gray

[@nancya8262]

wasn't that exactly right? I am in the US and Hillary calling Trump supporters "deplorables" just sums it up.

[@craigb4913]

@@nancya8262 Hillary is the epitome of the clueless elite that is convinced that anyone who disagrees with them is stupid or evil.

[@celiacresswell6909]

It seems a similar mindset to people who were enthusiastic about universal covid vaccination: a sort of revulsion for the contrary view

[@rogcrater8193]

Populists are worse than liberals, though. By several orders of magnitude.

[@celiacresswell6909]

Well I guess your assertion takes populism as appealing to our basest instincts. What I don’t like about liberalism is its reach for the moral high ground but without guts or intellectual honesty: not always, but often

[@bewilderedbrit8928]

All hope is lost. I used to love my country and the people who live in it. But now I think we are a nation of sheep led by psychopaths.

[@joncrane7661]

Stop wingeing and do something. Spread the news. Start a coffeehouse group. I.e a parallel society. Bring people together. You will feel better,

[@brightspacebabe]

As an American, I know how you feel. But don’t give up. I love what is good with my country, and reject the rest. I don’t follow any side of politics. Find your strengths, and build on what you can change. Time for my daily run. Stay strong friend!❤

[@hschan5976]

That's the only way a nation state can work. If every citizen on the street is a philosopher and a strategist it won't be long before the nation gets torn apart and devolves into city states. Edit: unless a dictator emerges, crushes all the secessionist and individualist movements, and then rolls out brainwashing educational programs to once again turn the populace into sheeps. After that democracy can work again, for a few centuries before you'll have to rinse and repeat the above. And yes I'm an antinatalist. Civilization is a pyramid scheme.

[@bewilderedbrit8928]

@@joncrane7661 Standing in two elections for UKIP annihilated my social life and my relationship. So no thanks, you are on your own. I've done my bit. Good luck.

[@just_another32]

oh my gosh, what a horrible thought.

[@carrie2258]

The most informed, honest, intelligent and coherent discussion I have heard on the subject matter, for too many years! (Looking forward to part 2, and I will be sharing both parts with everyone I know). Great show!

[@spowebscott]

Well said. I was planning to post too but had nothing more to add than your comment

[@adrianadrianoaimbot8178]

Could Sunak be a “political coup”? As Truss started talking about fracking, Sunak’s WEF-friends manipulated the the markets to force her out.

[@microfarming8583]

Definitely that's the case. He was the chosen one all along. He was in California earlier this year taking his orders. Truss was set up and given bad advice and they punished her with the markets. All that gas from fracking is not what they want for the Great Reset agenda. She was used and discarded.

[@megaduck7965]

Hunt is a WEF stooge as well , and he’s connected to the ccp very concerning stuff

[@ian_b]

It's a coup. The details we may never know.

[@megaduck7965]

@@ian_b absolutely correct

[@adrianadrianoaimbot8178]

@@megaduck7965 unfortunately so is Ulf Kristersson, leader of the new rightwing coalition in Sweden.

[@rogersinger3757]

Don’t tarnish brexiteers with the brush of cowardice, matey! Some of us had no illusions about ‘greater shelter’ and were more than happy to pitch into the world market with all its vagaries. I for one was (more or less) a sole trader, and sold my skills from London to Singapore. The global Brexit Britain didn’t work simply because there was no political appetite for it. Basically the political classes didn’t want it to work and so it didn’t happen. And some of us are very VERY angry about it.

[@bridge_studio]

Brexit didn't work because it was always a bad idea.

[@rogersinger3757]

@@bridge_studio and yours, I am sad to say, is just about the daftest comment I’ve ever read anywhere on any channel.

[@just_another32]

I think you're right there and I noticed that too.

[@GodsOwnPrototype]

Oh to have had the ethnic and law & order regime of Singapore operate in the UK!

[@LoremIpsum1970]

I don't see myself as European and that's probably an age thing. Any step past the EEC was a mistake and I'm just not one for bureaucracy on a large scale.

[@spm36]

Sunak squandered billions and now he says he's the saviour? Gtf

[@fraserbailey6347]

For some time I have called him Ricky Screwcap because all that money he gave away was spend on cheap booze.

[@spm36]

@@fraserbailey6347 I'd say itchy ballsack

[@gerhard7323]

True, but if he hadn't done it then some other eedjut would. ALL our politicians were trying to conspicuously outdo each other remember. Egged on by a complicit, unquestioning media hooked on perpetuating this morbid obsession. It was an insane time and insane time most of us are now going to have to pay for and pay for dearly.

[@hariseldon3786]

The bizarre thing is that the situation we are in was created, in large part, by people like Richi Sunak...

[@SuperMerlin2005]

In part? Lol

[@johnpruett5258]

Because feudalism is the goal.

[@januarysson5633]

He was a creator of the Covid lockdowns, wasn’t he? Is anyone still talking about this?

[@msj5885]

I don't find it bizarre. It is entirely consistent.

[@hariseldon3786]

@@msj5885 😁

[@cnrspiller3549]

I voted for Brexit because I didn't like being ruled from Europe. What the UK would do after that, whether grand or ignoble, was less important to me, so long as it would be democratic. I think most Brexiteers shared similar motivations. It was a sovereignty issue, not an economic one. It's the sovereignty stupid.

[@TheFragilityOfIdeas]

I shared the same sentiment, only to then realise just how contemptible the British political class is and that Brexit wasn’t enough, as our ruling elite are a mixed bag of self-serving, treacherous and incompetent fools who do not seem to share the sentimentality towards the UK as large swatches of the demos, but view it as a platform for their personal and professional enrichment.

[@evolassunglasses4673]

We left the EU but are still captured by the Global American Empire and its open borders Globalisation project.

[@NorthernObserver]

Which is why the capitulation to the EU human rights court on refugee policy is such a betrayal.

[@gerhard7323]

I agree, but Brexit wasn't an event remember, it is a process and it was always going to be a slow, painful process. These mostly contemptible individuals are a product of the existing political status quo not the direct result of Brexit. Our own political establishment had become infantilised and in thrall to the EU political establishment for many decades now. That, unfortunately, takes years to undo and re-establishing the democratic process is the only way it will be achieved.

[@nonoyorbusness]

I'm afraid there's a profound economic crisis caused by me, but don't worry I'm here to compound on the mess I made!

[@muppetturd]

Well shame on you. Stop doing it. Naughty you

[@nonoyorbusness]

@@muppetturd Klaus says NO!

[@scillyautomatic]

Gee, thanks, Nono! You could have told us this sooner! 🤣🤣

[@blitz8702]

debt and interest is their speciality

[@HelenA-fd8vl]

What about the little matter of Covid? Why don’t you blame the Chinese?

[@clemfarley7257]

Terrific. Freddie and Gray are owed gratitude.

[@THINKincessantly]

When democracy changes leadership every 2-4 years how can you expect to hold to a set course to see if a plan works or not?

[@evolassunglasses4673]

Unfortunately Globalisation destroyed the nation state democracy decades ago.

[@zhangruyi3153]

It is so refreshing to listen to John Gray and I cannot wait to hear what he has to say about China, Russia and the war in Ukraine. Thank you Freddie - for your hard work in bringing in such an interesting person like John Gray to Unheard.

[@gutzb9574]

John Gray is in my opinion Britains finest modern mind in his wide and encompassing grasp of politics, economics, literature and history in towe. Quite remarkable how well read he is. I very much hope as a result of this podcast he is more widely picked up on by the mainstream. &thank you unherd and freddie for reaching out to him for this chat admist all the turmoil in the UK at the moment. we need John's clarity and thoughts more than ever!

[@kreek22]

I prefer Dominic Cummings.

[@gutzb9574]

@@kreek22 eh?

[@AggroChip]

@@gutzb9574 He's a really crappy philosopher though

[@barrywalsh7926]

If the UK had managed her North Sea oil and gas resources for the long-term benefit of the country, as successive Norwegian Governments have by building up massive sovereign wealth funds, elected politicians could not be ousted by unelected financial institutions.

[@user-zz9gn2dc3l]

Here here

[@lukehunnable]

@@user-zz9gn2dc3l isn’t it “hear hear”?

[@user-zz9gn2dc3l]

@@lukehunnable yes you're probably right. I don't know my hear's from my here's 😂

[@lukehunnable]

@@user-zz9gn2dc3l 🤣👍

[@kreek22]

Has the ruling class of the post-war era managed anything for the benefit of the country? Maybe one thing: jettisoning unprofitable colonial possessions.

[@annarichardson7794]

Any pretence that the people had a say in how this country is run has been destroyed. It's the markets, it always was the markets.

[@user-zz9gn2dc3l]

And the central bankers control our current government and main opposition the labour party.

[@gerhard7323]

'The kindness of strangers' aka 'the markets'. Mark Carney wasn't right about most things, but his euphemistic warning was well-chosen here. Successive expedient, venal UK political elites have long betrayed the the long term interests of the people of the UK, particularly since the days of Margaret Thatcher.

[@OrwellsHousecat]

Fascinating & illuminating. I feel like I have to re-listen several times because there are so many pertinent points made in each sentence, particularly about the different factions, visions of the world, powers, players, etc. Superb content

[@tallard666]

John remains in the total, as Noam Chomsky is failing horribly in his age, even as they both have the same posture.

[@Oblivion47]

Had to comment on that long middle section, he is absolutely spot on. I can summarize a lot of what he's saying there simply by stating "culture runs deep".

[@williamralph9008]

It might be useful to have this same conversation with Prof.Alexandr Dugin and have him explain the current state of Britain and the world as seen in the light of his Fourth Political Theory and Great Awakening.

[@michaelsinclair2510]

The best, most relevant perspective reviewing these past few years and current, and likely, future situations.

[@THINKincessantly]

Moseley’s speech on multi culturalism covers all this too, the stripping of British industry to sweat shops in asia....no wonder they hate the guy, he was open and honest and told the truth

[@no-one-knows321]

Enoch was shut down hard. No popular candidates possible.

[@evolassunglasses4673]

Blood and soil.

[@ronmackinnon9374]

This rapid turnover of PMs is starting to resemble that of France during the Third and Fourth Republics. The saying then was that American tourists would go to London to see the changing of the guard, and to Paris to see the changing of the government.

[@antonyliberopoulos933]

Your conversation helped me understand some nuances of English politics. Thank you.

[@BrianSinai]

What a breath of fresh air. Fascinating conversation.

[@satyadasadavidwaterston2166]

Thank you. I found that a fascinating, clear and unsettling high level analysis of politics in the UK, particularly the last 25 years or so.

[@EpicGeopolitics]

Such a breathe of fresh air this. Really appreciate a more honest conversation about what's going on.

[@jae2686]

This man is circular. He goes around and around and around until you’re either dizzy or your mind is boggled with boredom.

[@bazs7669]

Thank you for this insightful interview with John Gray, one of my favourite thinkers. Can’t wait for Part 2!

[@nancya8262]

Brilliant!! Wonderful episode, I will look forward eagerly to the second part. Mr. Gray is a pleasure to listen to and an incredible font of knowledge.

[@zogy628]

Brilliant analysis, not hard of John Gray before but will be looking out for more , well done Freddie.

[@just_another32]

Great conversation! Thanks Freddie and Gray! Looking forward to part 2. (A bit mean of you to suddenly cut it off when you did and make two episodes out of it) :D

[@philipbrown2086]

I was looking for the clear analysis that the comments spoke of but 20 minutes in hadn’t seen a prospect of it. They seemed to agree generally so much that neither had to be very clear just what they were agreeing about.

[@61chickens]

An excellent discussion - thus far, too little has been said about the different reasons the British people got behind Brexit and as a left-leaning Brexiteer it's been difficult to tease out these different threads in the heat of battle. The binary nature of the referendum meant accepting some strange political bedfellows, but as we get further down the road and the smoke begins to clear we can begin to explore these differences and map out a route forwards. I agree with John Gray that despite the 'globalist coup', a simple return to the status quo ante is not an option and that gives me some hope for the future. I shall proceed straight to part two!.

[@assemblyofsilence]

It’s the underlying properties of a monetary system that bends ideological preferences into caricature.

[@jennidall1550]

"Populism is a term liberals apply to the political blow-back from their policies that they fail to comprehend." Just had to memorise that😀

[@emeraldcelestial1058]

classic reactionary statement 😎

[@JosephStealin]

The main reason people voted for Brexit was to stop immigration. That is it!

[@lifeintheolddog5768]

I suspect it was for many the embodiment of the British working person’s dream - to tell those who would tell them what to do, to get stuffed.

[@user-zz9gn2dc3l]

Being a sovereign nation was a massive part of it because the EU is run by unelected officials.

[@JosephStealin]

@@user-zz9gn2dc3l yes but the main reason people noticed that we are not sovereign is our complete inability to maintain our own boarders.

[@evolassunglasses4673]

Agree. A country with no borders isn't a country.

[@JosephStealin]

@Teesee so you want immigrants to come to be your slave labour? Firstly how many of the fighting aged men coming daily on boats do you really think are becoming Doctor’s or nurses? Secondly do immigrants not also require the NHS and schools? more people means more of a strain on our services Thirdly we should pay a decent wage not just import cheap labour! Fourthly do you think it is a good idea to deprive other countries of their Doctors and nurses? Man you really are a racist

[@BiggusDiggusable]

Not really convinced that the people who voted for Brexit did so to be protected. Would like to see any evidence for that.

[@bridge_studio]

How much more pain do people who voted for the Tories have to endure before they admit they made a massive mistake?

[@user-zz9gn2dc3l]

Labour would have done the same with bells on. Remember them calling for earlier, harder, longer lockdowns and mandates. They didn't support working people or small to medium sized businesses that our economy has always relied upon! They didn't even support or stand for freedom of speech!

[@debbiegamon1232]

@R D please would you give some references to those admissions of massive failure?

[@debbiegamon1232]

@R D so they admitted that? Not sure of your point. The lockdown policies were incredibly damaging, yes.

[@evolassunglasses4673]

People vote Tory to block Labour/ Corbyn.

[@debbiegamon1232]

@@curvomatic5097 in theory, with the Internet, we could improve democracy.. but yes, the censorship is obvious and crude. It is not liberally democratic to censor. So I would agree that we are not a very Liberal democracy. What do we want as people of the UK? Is it true that many want stronger government in the way that parliamentarians have interpreted it? ...which seems to me, not stronger, but more coercive. Strength is something that needs definition. I certainly would not have voted for coercive measures and censored discourse. If censorship has been rife in the past perhaps conservatism seeks to maintain that type of control. For what purposes? How would Labour achieve the aims of those who vote for the Labour Party? Yes. They seemed to relish lockdown as well. Nice to be able to force people to stay in their homes? Easier way to keep order?...but as far as I can understand, there has been no really detailed evidence or proper transparency as yet, as to a justifiable reason to create a state of emergency. In partying and ignoring the rules in so many other ways, the conservatives were acting as though their rules were arbitrary, whilst prohibiting normal reasonable behaviour in the general public. I would not be suprised if many citizens are probably still suffering the pain of grief in knowing their elderly relatives died alone. For me, recovering from the trauma of what the country has faced and will face as a result of measures that do not justify themselves, is very difficult. I do not understand why any leader would not trust people to make reasonable decisions. It shows a level of weakness in our government that I did not believe would be allowed. Yet, again, we have a pm who broke the law .... and found it difficult to understand that he had until he received a fine??? It has sickened me to be the subject .... of his or his majesty's government. Where is our country heading?

[@StellaPastLife]

They should all be sacked and never to work in politics again. EVER. I hear mumbo jumbo instead of court hearings.

[@suddentwist]

The remark that the Rishis of the world are not conceptually equipped to understand what is going on is perhaps correct. Schools from which 30-50-year-old generations' elites graduated from could have not possibly prepared them to the deglobalized world we ended up in.

[@celiacresswell6909]

I went to his school - and I run self sufficiency courses. While not perfect, it was a masterclass in how to think broadly and sceptically!

[@yossarian_lives]

What an excellent, insightful, and balanced discussion. Thank you Unherd.

[@andreimustata5922]

John Gray is very careful in not saying what could be done, what could work. This is the correct attitude for a philosopher but impossible one for a politician. In his second part he speaks about tragic realism. That seems close to the mark. We are entering the period of social disintegration and the question is what should be preserved. Different parts of society have different parts which they want to keep, and these are probably lines around which fragmentation will happen.

[@helsonwheels5175]

Thank you, Freddie. The last few weeks have been both abhorrent and astounding to witness. As soon as The Markets packed it in over Truss, and then Hunt replaced Kwarteng, I smelled rats. One point though, as Peter Hitchens mentioned, every western country that has brought in proportional representation has had subsequent left-leaning govts. I’m not sure if that’s true, but it certainly has had dire consequences for New Zealand, allowing Labour there to come into power at the whim of one disgruntled megalomaniac.

[@RustyCohle]

All these 'leaders' are nothing more than puppets (Ardern, Sunak, Trudaeu, Biden), if they veer from the script in any meaningful way, they're gone, in a sense they have little more power than you or I.

[@MichaelJordan-yy1sr]

With respect to nz, there was a conservative govt from 2008-2016 under the same voting system that exists now….

[@Mondegreen2020]

"Emotional topology" is the term he uses to describe the fear of fascist WEF idealogies, policies & political interferences?! He seems totally ignorant of WEF & naive to the future mapped out for us. Digital IDs, CBDCs & social credit system is imminent, & national governments will be more impotent than they were during the health event. End the WEF! ✌🏻🕊

[@user-zz9gn2dc3l]

Yes and end the behind the scenes control exercised by the central bankers, WEF, NATO and big corporations, NGO's, Foundations etc...they are toxic poison to our democracy.

[@CL-he4jz]

oh look, I can't see the reply. again

[@jackwilliamson1929]

Speak to Jeffrey Sachs Freddie he will certainly tell you the truth of course every intelligent person already knows it even if the won't say so.

[@enedinopadilla6320]

It seems like Mr Brian Nelson, is such wonderful guy, I can't hardly wait to meet him!

[@denishetherington1386]

Thank you both for your wide-ranging and even-handed appraisal of the desperate situation faced by our country after the coup by Sumac and Hunt, I was relieved that you gave some sympathy to the views of Truss and Farage than that of the howling mob that destroyed poor Liz! I think that Nigel is going to be (yet again) a very significant figure in the next few days and months in our politics and I would like to see you accord him recognition on Unherd, You also referred to the views of the leader of the opposition (and also held by Sunac) on their utopian views on Net Zero which bring a collapse of the world as we know it. There are two very eminent scientists whose views should be better widespread Dr Judith Curry and Dr William Happer, both do not deny that there is global warming and that it is caused largely by humans but they have very different views on what the effects would be,I would very much like either one or both heard on Unherd

[@alexgibson2871]

This is excellent . I loved Grays books on liberalism and Hayek, but tried to not hear his more pessimistic arguments. However recent events are impossible to ignore, and all this chimes well with the excellent Twitter spaces of late with collingwood and Steve Davies. Grays points about the essential contradiction in delivering brexit is so well put.

[@davewalter1216]

That was a much more interesting and thoughtful discussion of British politics and government than usual.

[@honestjohn6418]

I don’t think John’s point about Labour soaring in the polls is testament to our lack of polarization. All that is happening is the people who wanted a return to sovereignty, relatively low immigration and to get rid of the wokery, have quite rationally stepped away. Because they’ve realised that the political establishment and the expert class who run all of our unelected institutions, refuses to carry out their democratic duties, when those duties go against their socially progressive, left wing, Intra national vision of the global village. Leaving the right leaning electorate without political representation. Labour are just the lucky beneficiaries of the plummeting support for the Tories. Labour are not the beneficiaries of a massive upswing in popularity, among an open minded, politically mature electorate, willing to vote across the divide when the Tories slip up.

[@NorthernObserver]

Yes. This is exactly it

[@chel3SEY]

Gray sounds very critical and sceptical of liberalism but, when asked for his alternative, just falls back on a very vague liberalism. Very exasperating.

[@NorthernObserver]

I’d Gray was brave enough to follow his conclusions he would be a champion of the Deep Right.

[@RaHeadD10]

If he followed his conclusions he would be nick land and neo reactionary!!!

[@benjones1717]

Freemarket capitalism paradoxically would only work with rules and enforcement to stop big corporations from immediately becoming monopolise and defacto governments. Also it's not impossible to want to reduce immigration and want to liberalise the economy in the UK, even if the first problem is reducing inflation.

[@JoinTheTemple]

I am very, very much a "free market Brexiteer". It saddens me greatly that we cannot make it happen. Though I am not really sure Truss represented it. She wanted to increase government spending (massively). A free marketer would decrease government spending, as well as taxes.

[@user-zz9gn2dc3l]

The green new deal is not green. It is anti human life.

[@douglasx6915]

What a fantastic conversation. 100%.

[@IAmJeroenKlomp]

There's a UKIP, SDP, Reclaim Party collab now. And who knows what Farage will do.

[@stevef9530]

Excellent discussion, thanks!

[@philltaylor8442]

Its a very good podcast. 👍👏👏.

[@olafweyer859]

It was the 1990s and I was sitting in school listening to my teacher explaining and praising globalism. And I sat there and asked myself: Why? Why are we talking about this and why the insistence that this is something positive? It was crazy, like they wanted us to join a cult.

[@Cdarlosfletch58]

Brilliant analysis of greed, corruption , control, humanity, politics !!!

[@Oblivion47]

Agreed with so much of this, so was naturally a little disappointed when right at the end he correctly rejects the idea that desire for controlled immigration is inherently racist but then explained what he saw as the real motivation behind that desire as purely economical. I found that particularly strange as much of the rest of the interview focussed, quite rightly, on the self-evident fact that there are many more forces in play in the world than economics.

[@jenniferlawrence2701]

Speaking openly (and sympathetically) about the real reasons might jeopardize his job at the New Statesman and get him saddled with accusations that he'd "gone to the dark side" so to speak.

[@kurisensei]

I see John Gray, I click

[@RaHeadD10]

For everyone who loves this, read Nick Lands “the dark enlightenment” and Oswald Spengler.

[@christopherdew2355]

I can never hear enough from John Gray!

[@cnrspiller3549]

First past the post means the deals and the coalitions happen before the voters have their say. PR means all the deals happen after the voters have had their say. This is why 1stPTP is preferable to PR imo.

[@evanfirebrand]

Real quality observation, synthesis and articulation. Looking forward to part 2.

[@merocaine]

Read false dawn when it came out, I think his predictions for global capitalism panned out pretty well.

[@craigwillms61]

Refreshing. None of the knee jerk dismissal of the "populist" movement. Technocrat is a great term for it, those who arrogantly know what's right and flat out dismiss the real world.

[@chrismackenzie4789]

I find Gray's analysis interesting, but I'm missing solutions. Regarding Truss, I don't think it was conspiratorial elites that got rid of her. Just incompetence.

[@cioran1754]

Have you read Straw Dogs?

[@chrismackenzie4789]

@@cioran1754 No, but I'm going to after this video.

[@cioran1754]

@@chrismackenzie4789 it could be viewed as quite a downer on human nature, human progress in ethics etc is not cumulative ( even if scientific knowledge can be ), think that's what I was getting at here, and Straw Dogs is all about that, just a heads up !

[@rexstout8177]

We indeed live in interesting times.

[@richardburton1816]

Was it just me but I found Gray to be the most mind numbing interviewee ever seen on Unheard. If it is only me, I will go through the ordeal a second time!

[@onesmallkayak]

He's trying very hard not to sound like Boris.

[@richardburton1816]

@@onesmallkayak Thanks His tone and syntax just sounded disingenuous Similar to when I tried reading Steven Pinker's book

[@BlueInk912]

No voice training. ;) or better tech in recording/mic to compensate for low volume/pitch of his voice. I have yet to find lecture or interview on web where i didn't just gave up! Pity.

[@richardburton1816]

@@BlueInk912 I was watching at 2X speed as usual and therefore what you suggest was exaggerated.

[@BlueInk912]

@@richardburton1816 perhaps my hearing in picking up John's voice. Good on your hearing, even if i could hear him comfortably wont match your comprehension capabilities 2x speed.

[@alisonhoustonpoems6631]

Entirely correct summary of recent political history and I think probably accurate predictions, except with regards to Farage, who of course was totally against mass, uncontrolled immigration and was publicly beaten up for being so.

[@defenstrator4660]

The problem is not first past the post. Proportional representation causes chaos where different groups fight and hold each other for ransoms to get their way. The problem with first past the post in the UK is that the Conservatives agree with too many Labour policies. There really isn’t a different vision between the two parties.

[@anonymousbydefault]

Loved it!

[@jenniferlawrence2701]

There is a massive opportunity for a "Red Tory/Blue Labour" party to emerge if only someone can instigate it. There is, in my estimation, a large pool of voters who are somewhat socially conservative on things like immigration & culture, but also lean Left on economics. This combination seems to be what electorates in many Western countries really want, but for some reason can't get.

[@scottwatrous7649]

In both the US & UK our legislative bodies have been disempowered. In the US Congress is the Article 1 branch for a reason. In the UK you describe yourself as a parliamentary democracy for a reason. That is where the power is supposed to be centered. It has taken years of chicanery in both countries to achieve this sorry and untenable state of affairs. Hoping for the rise of some personality or ideology to set things right will not work. We need to rekindle a measured respect for the general will reflected by legitimate representatives in assembly. That's where reform needs to be focused. Dismantle the arcane rules.

[@gabrielamphore9341]

Is stoicism compatible with humour? Mr Gray reminds me of Hari Seldon 'sans le mathematique'... Is there a second foundation? Perhaps last minute fare offers for Mars? Fortunately & unfortunately Messrs Gray & Sayers appear both frank & honest. My thanks to both.

[@omdthe9382]

This lacks a discussion on the old FIAT paradigm and the new Bitcoin paradigm.

[@just_another32]

That's another video for another day, my friend!

[@MacFrisco]

'disaster' is in the eyes of the beholder. Who understands disaster capitalism?

[@presterjohn1697]

Disaster Capitalism? How does that work? Is this the part if Capitalism we don't like (or) just a natural progression.

[@MacFrisco]

@@presterjohn1697 "As Naomi Klein argued in The Shock Doctrine, disaster capitalism operates by delivering massive shocks to the system and then using the ensuing period of anarchy, fear and confusion to reassemble the pieces of what it has broken into a new configuration. This is what was done in the aftermath of the financial crisis, and it is ultimately what is at stake in Brexit. The right wing of the Tory party has succeeded in throwing the UK’s affairs into complete confusion. The losses may be enormous: the preservation of the United Kingdom in its present form is far from certain. The winnings may, at first sight, seem modest: £350m a week will not be available to save the NHS; the free movement of labour will have to be conceded; and Britain will lose its place at the EU negotiating table. But the potential winnings for ruthless politicians are nevertheless enormous: the prize is the opportunity to rework an almost infinite range of detailed arrangements both inside and outside the UK, to redraw at breakneck speed the legal framework that will govern all aspects of our lives" “If you break it, you own it” www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/04/disaster-capitalism-tory-right-brexit-roll-back-state smile.amazon.com/Shock-Doctrine-Disaster-Capitalism-Paperback/dp/B00OHXGECO/

[@presterjohn1697]

@@MacFrisco Feels like fascist to me. Fascism is a defense-mechanism of capitalism in its death throes. Capitalism naturally develops on a path toward fascism. From it's inception Capitalism has always been rife with inherent undemocratic fascistic qualities. Capitalism in it's "orthodoxy" relies heavily on authoritative, controlling, and lopsided power dynamics, most notably between that of capitalists and the people, land and resources they exploit for profit.

[@siroutrage1045]

Populism is what people call democracy when they don’t like the outcome

[@Derrar7164]

Interesting dialogue...my humble opinion is , the east can save the west, but will the west accept that the sun rise in the East?

[@alexk48]

How can the east save the west? Engineer a western Dalite caste?

[@nikk3251]

Loved it so educational thanks guys 👏👏

[@erict.35]

I appreciate the generous amount of blue 😊

[@scillyautomatic]

OK, so to sum up John Gray, everyone is insufferably stupid... except John Gray. Thx, John. Got it.

[@scillyautomatic]

@bartley butsford and the he said "They'll throw the green new deal out the window." I am SO looking forward to that!

[@nelatuhtan265]

This is an unforgivable digression, but Freddie Sayers is just so handsome

[@katenavajo9359]

🤣

[@_.dace._]

It's not enough Nela :)

[@peachy7776]

hope he sees this sis 🤣

[@judithcressey1682]

No, he's not.

[@helsonwheels5175]

He is Nela. Intelligence and beauty. A potent and heady mix. ❤

[@DanielDunne1]

If you balance your books you don't need to worry about the markets. If you want to run a deficit and borrow, that is your choice, but don't complain that the lenders set the rate of interest.

[@Kefuddle]

People like Gray deeply irritate me. Everything has to be a paradigm or an -ism. These academics cannot comprehend the practical ability to make things happen. Politicians hang of off these intellectual pastiches to create this intelligencia aesthetic that literally hobbles anybody who actually tries to accomplish anything in real terms for normal people. BTW, Farage commended the budget, not Truss. I cannot really understand how this conversation can take place with no reference to the validity of Truss' attempts to stave off this false narrative of inflation.

[@gerhard7323]

Genuine question. What do you mean by 'this false narrative of inflation'?

[@Kefuddle]

@@gerhard7323 It isn't inflation. Price rises are primarily due to the cost of energy not the expansion of the money supply.

[@Kefuddle]

@@gerhard7323 They call it inflation, but it isn't inflation.

[@jethrobodine9155]

My overall impression is that this sounded like the usual muddled and meandering punditry. Maybe we need to explore what all these buzzwords mean? Technocracy. Brexit. Populism..... Do they mean very different things to many different people? I'm looking at this as an American libertarian individualist who gave up electoral politics a long time ago. I don't care if America is "Great" Again. I'm just trying to find freedom and meaning in a very unfree and meaningless world.

[@stephenhogg6154]

Is this guy really a ‘foremost’ philosopher? I read ‘Straw Dogs’, and thought it was shit.

[@gladyskravitz1000]

John Gray is stuck in old generalizations of fascism and right and left. He still thinks that workers are largely in factories or mines. He needs to review his own thoughts. They are old and not relevant in politics today.

[@simonsmatthew]

Insightful,but I wish people would stop saying 'Boris'.

[@emeraldcelestial1058]

Man this macro econ talk is fun but holy shit the ironic myopic nature of it all is brutal

[@spirestocksnotification6710]

Hopefully, someday John will discover the depth of philosophy of Paschal's wager, noting it was refreshing to hear how a two party "system" is not sufficient for any government even without specifying the obvious, that, with the absence of morality [which he refutes is possible for mankind], all that remains is disorder, chaos, and insanity. Technology in and of itself is not evil, but using technology to sensor ideas or the Truth is evil. Hence, he does arrive at the correct analysis/conclusion, about the current state of worldly affairs, but the cause of the problem is not "religions"; the cause of the problem is man's fall from morality, not the incorrect notion that man is not capable of morality, as we have historical proof of thousands of saints who knew, loved and served both God and mankind. What is ironic is that philosophy literally comes from philos (loving) and sophis (wise/wisdom) and wisdom is distinct from knowledge and wisdom is of God, as is Love. The essence of Philosophy is an all knowing, wise, loving and mysterious God. Also interesting is John says, "Where did it all come from? The devil." Knowing John is atheist, was he being facetious, because he is actually discovering the ultimate and actual source of the chaos and evil. How do atheists reconcile or explain spiritual beings that they reference since they can't exist (creation) without God.

[@richardvoller9204]

At no point in the {excellent} interview were the WEF mentioned in spite of the fact that they are pulling all the strings.

[@cygnusrays]

Thanks for highlighting that, I don't need to listen to any more if that isn't in the conversation. It should be foremost in every political discussion imo.

[@Benbenforever]

Boring boring boring, he knows absolutely nothing about ordinary people, not a bloody clue.

[@aristocraticrebel]

We're back in the 1920s again.

[@evolassunglasses4673]

Let's hope the good side wins this time, if its a 30s replay....

[@StellaPastLife]

seeing they messed up the fuel situ they should have freezed the rate and pay the excess on peopoles bills. I'm sure they'll still be flying in their private jet and paid drivers. I'm sure downing street and buckingham palace will be nice and cosy this winter.

[@alicebowie7808]

The term is REVENGE OF THE NERDS

[@myla6135]

If the Tories had decided to Brexit in small stages it might have worked. Probably not though as that still needs a lot of skill. But no, the hard Brexit lot were against it despite having no idea how to achieve it or even what it looked like. All that nonsense about a soft Brexit being a sell-out. Well, maybe a half in and half out might have been altogether do-able and achieved some of what the populace asked for in terms of protection from global forces. I think Gray is politely saying Brexit was never thought through and has been implemented in a hotch-potch way by a bunch of no-hopers. I have to agree. What chance though of getting anyone who could make a success of Brexit? It's not just the technocrat elites that have learnt nothing. It would seem no-one has learnt anything.

[@awakelingsignals]

I think it would be a good idea to speak to Noam Chomsky, Freddie. I also will say: the fastest way to cause an indifference in people so they just “shrug their shoulders”, is confusion and doubt.

[@johanswede8200]

Not Chomsky. Please...He has had his say for the last 60 years. He has had an extreme ANTI West agenda all that time... Would be funny to hear Chomsky's answer on: "Why does half the world want to emigrate and live in the West?"

[@presterjohn1697]

Noam (Separate the Anti-Vaxxers from Society) Chomsky?

[@CL-he4jz]

@@presterjohn1697 yes, incredible cognitive dissonance considering his writings. as in "The Road to Wigan Pier" by Orwell...the worst discrimination is caused by making people seem diseased/ repugnant/ germ- ridden...

[@josipag2185]

No. Chomsky is just wrong. In pretty much, everything.

[@presterjohn1697]

@@CL-he4jz BAM!!!.....You said it. Spot on.

[@presterjohn1697]

Here we go again with the terminology fuckery. Swap Technocrat for Corporatist.

[@presterjohn1697]

@@yishainathan The shills are running out of words to conceal what's really going on. Throw people off the trail. The term Technocrat is rarely if ever used within the english lexicon. Most are unable to accurate define it to begin with. The world is currently being governed under a corporatist system (fascism) in which governments are largely acting as privatized entities.

[@just_another32]

The meanings are not the same. Check the definitions!

[@presterjohn1697]

@@just_another32 So let's define Technocrat. Once you decide what it means ask yourself who do these so called Technocrats serve? Answer: Corporatists The use of the term Technocrat is a word game who's purpose is to confuse post-literate idiots and throw them off the trail.