I'm Convinced. Let's Do Astronomy From the Moon

What kind of science can we do with telescopes on the Moon? Giant radio dishes in craters, gravitational wave detectors, UV interferometers, and much more. How Starship will completely change this field and enable new opportunities.
🟣 Guest: Dr. Martin Elvis
cfa.harvard.edu/people/martin...
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00:00:00 Intro
00:02:11 Why put telescopes on the Moon
00:10:00 Unique things for the Moon
00:18:01 How should a good lunar telescope look like
00:27:31 Gravitational waves observatory
00:37:12 History of the Moon
00:41:00 What's next
00:49:43 How Starship will change the game
00:54:29 Current obsessions
01:02:37 Final thoughts
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[@m.branson4785]

A friend actually messaged me to watch this one. "Dude, Cain made a video about that thing you never shut up about." I love the future in lunar-based astronomy. I cannot lie.

[@zimriel]

Those other brothers can't deny.

[@scottmedchill4210]

34:18 "That's no moon. Its a gravitational wave detector!" -- Obi Wan (probably)

[@rocketraccoon1976]

No, that's yo mamma!! -- Palpatine

[@lsa5662]

I never regret watching your interviews Fraser, you chose wise guest, and ask wise questions! Thanks for all your hard work!

[@MarinCipollina]

Absolutely we should use the Moon as a base for telescopes of all varieties. The Moon is simply another resource available to the science community, and we should utilize that resource along with space and Earth based observatory platforms. Bravo, Frasier, and thanks to Dr Elvis ! These are some exciting ideas and proposals and I hope they're acted on sooner rather than later.

[@BlimeyOreiley]

Fraser, this was a really good interview. Cheers.

[@vincentcleaver1925]

Alright, am I the only one who wants Fraser to ask Dr Elvis about that last name?

[@amirsafari7140]

Man I love when scientists talk about starship, I've imagined all the possibilities with starship, even I've imagined it as starter of interstellar civilization, but when scientists talk about it I realize that things are getting serious and we will see practical things very soon and maybe our dreams will come to reality very soon

[@notmyname327]

Haha I like the "clickbaity" thumbnail with Starship. Radio astronomy is fascinating so it would be awesome to put a telescope on the far side of the moon and avoid all the "pollution" from Earth. I hadn't considered how useful it could be for gravitational waves too, that's really interesting! And even the possibility of using just seismometers instead of lasers. Man, the ideas people come up with are just unbelievable.

[@surferdude4487]

Click bait? How else are we going to get a gigantic reflector to the moon's surface?

[@ReinReads]

Less than 4 minutes in and the guest is talking about needing to get many tons to the moon. No other launch system under development has that kind of capabilities. So it’s either Starship or they are talking about some far future concepts.

[@notmyname327]

@@ReinReads Oh and later in the video they talk a lot more about the possibilities Starship will unlock in the future. I was just poking a bit of fun because come on, that thumbnail is still click-baity for this subject (I totally respect click bait for good causes lol)

[@Flowmystic]

Incredible insight on our prosperous moon. I hope he comes back for follow up interviews.

[@isaacplaysbass8568]

Superbly enjoyable interview, and I'm entirely onboard with the "tube-in-a-tube" concept, and the lunar telescope concepts. IFT-5 really felt like the step up that we have been waiting for.

[@tankourito5419]

Oh yeah, and there's a lot more to come too.

[@pointingfamilyagility]

Very interesting interview, by the way. I was hesitant about starting a 1+ hr video but I ended up watching it stem-to-stern. This was, in part, due to the excitement and keen interest shown by both or the participants. Well done, Martin and Fraser!

[@user-sd3ik9rt6d]

Its got to be called 'pink floyd base'

[@NickAk44]

or brain damage

[@kennethpeters7915]

Gilmour Point, watch Waters have an actual stroke.

[@bestemusikken]

I'm so looking forward to see what Starship can deploy over the next years. Astronomers will be like kids on christmas.

[@angrydoggy9170]

Starship can’t do anything other large rockets can’t do. The booster might become a useful tool with a different second stage.

[@tankourito5419]

​@@angrydoggy9170You're showing your level 1 knowledge on Starship. Don't comment on things you clearly don't understand.

[@angrydoggy9170]

@@tankourito5419 Really now. Go ahead buddy, do provide the actual numbers for payload weight, size and the different orbits it can achieve. Not the numbers Musk keeps making up but actual capabilities.

[@richard--s]

​​​@@angrydoggy9170 refuel in orbit and then... What would other rockets be able to deliver to the moon, even if we include a refueling or re-stacking in orbit? They only have a small capsule with a small trunk in orbit or unmanned: A small module with a few tons.

[@angrydoggy9170]

@@richard--s Ok. So what’s that heavy bulky stuff we want to send to the moon? Any ideas on how that could become commercially viable? Also, the number flaunted by SpaceX are similar to what Saturn V could send up, but that rocket could have its upper stage switched out for a space station. Starship seems to be designed with starlink in mind and little else. How is Starship supposed to bring huge objects into orbit with that small slit as a payload deployment tool? The current design is pretty useless for anything but small satellites and altering the design would negate the reusability concept. The booster looks like a valuable concept, Starship not so much.

[@MistSoalar]

Dr. Elvis is so charming. Thanks for the interview. The propellant mass and system complexity of landing system still seems very challenging. I wonder if Starship makes it attainable or we have to wait for thermal nuclear thermal propulsion to be matured.

[@rJaune]

I really enjoyed this interview! The section about Gravitational Wave Astronomy on the Moon was fascinating. I have never heard of some of those ideas. However, my favorite part was at the half-hour mark when Dr. Elvis was so excited to hear about the other Kilonova candidates. Fraser continued his side-job of informing busy scientists about related news they missed while immersed in their work. Great job, Fraser!

[@tonyduncan9852]

Geopolitics might wreck it, but way to go . . . Elvis on the Moon . . . 😎

[@ke4nt]

I've watched this like 4 times now. It's really great. So inspiring.

[@heartyfisher]

I want to know more about "sneaking a telescope onto the next starship test" !!!

[@michaelpettersson4919]

The way they develop Starship they may very well want to do a "lets test ejecting a satellite" test. If they do they could deploy a real satellite but there will be no guarantees it will work so better slam together something cheap.

[@runrin_]

martin feels like one of us. so excited and interested in everything. great interview. glad you mentioned it in space bites or i would have missed it.

[@user-jg7ei6vn6r]

This is AMAZING!!! I've been thinking about these exact questions. Thank you for the follow up questions pressing about what astrophysics and astronomy folks are thinking about what Starship has meant and will mean in the near future.

[@Youtuber-ku4nk]

Don’t underestimate the problems that moon dust will give. It’s as fine grained as powder and it’s electrostatic. Equipment with moving part and even suites will wear much faster than on earth and you can’t avoid it coming indoors.

[@zimriel]

I think that research has been done to counteract the electrostatic dust. Keep in mind also that the Moon is almost airless. Very little dust can come up from the surface to the equipment. (Moonquakes can kick up some, and so can vibrations on the equipment itself). This isn't Mars.

[@MarinCipollina]

The fact there are permanent shadows means dust won't pick up electro static charge from solar rays, as mentioned in the interview. I don't think it will be the problem you seem to be suggesting

[@allangraham970]

Starship is going to kick up the biggest dust storm imaginable landing and taking off. Don't think the mirror on a telescope on the moon are going to like that

[@michaelpettersson4919]

If the dust is electrostatic maybe we could give it something else to stick to? Some form of de-dusting device inside (or outside of) the airlock.

[@michaelpettersson4919]

​​@@allangraham970And that is why the spaceport will not be right next to the telescope. Not if this is planned well. The lack of air will not allow the dust to hang in the air as dust can do in an atmosphere. The dust will quickly fall down again.

[@leverton275]

Dr Elvis sounds spot on like dr john hammond in the original jurassic park. I was waiting to hear about the great parks dinosaurs. In all seriousness - great content & interviews as always!

[@Bandit216]

Superb. Happy to know I'm not the only obsessed Starship watcher. It gives me great comfort that an experienced and credible scientist will also be in a strait-jacket in the adjoining asylum cell.

[@GreatAwakeningE]

Great episode. Love a bit of Blue Sky thinking.

[@zanelittlegray]

WOW! It's true! ELVIS LIVES !!!

[@ponterboddit7576]

Only a matter of time before there is a Starlink constilation around the moon

[@williamhad]

I like this guy

[@lib8884]

Im so glad you made a video about this thank you

[@donporter8432]

One of your best interviews, Fraser! II'm going to make a donation right now.

[@rik94sivie]

I just discovered this channel and I have to tell, Fraser has a great mind, you can see him freeze here and there tryin to process all the informations coming to him, replying with great other questions on that topic. Awesome interviews!

[@LibertarianLeninistRants]

Yes, this sounds like a really good idea! They should really put telescopes and gravitational wave detectors on the moon!

[@deant6361]

Love this ch Fraser I never miss anything you put out there it’s so interesting. Thanks for sharing.

[@tyrport]

Great interview. Really great! 🎉

[@FFXIgwyn]

I'll be saving this for later to listen to while I'm gaming.

[@737smartin]

I do a lot of that kind of 'multitasking,' too.

[@Poppyrae]

I mean why not use all this new rocket testing and sending supplies to build telescopes and different tools to build a moon base to understand our universe more. I love it

[@ackmedbinlama7179]

Amazing video, thank you so much 😊

[@MindFieldMusic]

So exciting! 🤩

[@bdg77]

Really good stuff!

[@AdamMansbridge]

Starship is expected to carry 150t to the lunar surface. There's a lot of radio antenna you can fit in 150t

[@NomenNescio99]

This was a very inspiring conversation, much enjoyed.

[@NovaDeb]

Very interesting interview.

[@rednus1]

@frasercain Amazing as always.. Thank you so much..

[@christianartman]

Moon base alpha and Starship will make it happen! Outrageously large telescopes on the moon are #1

[@EinsteinsHair]

Often they name these things by size: Square Kilometer Array, Very Large Array, Very Large Telescope, Large Binocular Telescope. I think you have come up with the next name. The Outrageously Large Telescope it is!

[@michaelpettersson4919]

Let skip sending the moon on an odyssey part for the moonbase though. 😅

[@andreschapero3615]

Love this channel !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@Thefreakyfreek]

What about a telascope made of starlink type satellites but small each their own antenna Combining that to a enormous receiver no surface rougnes to deal whot no landing needed And the problem we do have (position of the satalites changing ) can be a solved whit computing power But around the moon Charging on the solar ligt side and observing on the dar radio site transmiting thier recorded data ONLY on the side facing the earth to not interfere whot the observation

[@JamesCairney]

This was good

[@swapshots4427]

Great interview.!

[@richardloewen7177]

Love hearimg the factors of consideration elucidated.

[@jamescarlisle3770]

Two very like-minded men inventing new ideas. Keep it up

[@joaodecarvalho7012]

Fair points.

[@BG101UK]

I'd just like to say that my housemate and myself both thoroughly enjoyed this video. Thanks! The only issue I can think of is the (slightly?) higher risk of impacts due to the Moon's gravity well, as compared to a free-orbiting telescope.

[@Nolan1410]

Could we do large-scale cold experiments with the PSR craters? It would seem like a great test area.

[@donporter8432]

Thanks!

[@muleskinnerfilms6719]

Great interview!!?

[@toms-cubes-and-games]

Thanks, Fraser . Recommended KZbin (following your past request for suggestions): Jason Kendall

[@ioresult]

Interesting calligraphy in the background.

[@JonathanStory]

About Starship and side-bets. I wouldn't be surprised if people were queuing up now to load up Starship in this ironing-out phase. A "success is not guaranteed" discount price might be very attractive.

[@frasercain]

Absolutely

[@Clone42]

Considering that launch costs are but a very small fraction of the total price tag for launching these instruments you probably couldn't pay them enough to take that risk.

[@landgsmith]

Totally agree!

[@rocketraccoon1976]

Yep. Nothing's gonna stop us now! 🚀🌔

[@DCexpat]

We need a reason to actually go. SCIENCE!

[@RReese08]

Thanks for the excellent video. I really did find it enjoyable and informative. Based on the current, positive progress that the SpaceX Super Heavy/Starship program is making, I can see in my own limited way of it evolving into three or four different variants. There would be the basic Super Heavy/Starship reusable stack for launching satellites and bringing astronauts to the ISS and other space stations in low earth orbit. The next would be the Starship HLS currently in development for NASA’s Artemis program. There’s the Starship interplanetary/deep space version that’s in development to put humans on Mars, but it could also be used for other crewed deep space missions to, say, Venus or the asteroid belt. A fourth version would be a Starship heavy cargo launcher in both reusable and expendable versions that can put large payloads into space, such as a next-generation telescope or something ambitious such as service or retrieve the Hubble Space Telescope. The possibilities would be endless if SpaceX continues to keep the Super Heavy/Starship program as apparently affordable as it is now.

[@salland12]

Your comment is comical to say the least.

[@tankourito5419]

​@salland12 The fact that your last visible comment was 'Starship isn't going anywhere' and it literally just landed back on Earth after being in space, is comical. Also, if you want to seem respectable in any way shape or form, don't say 'u' instead of 'you'. Half the time you pretend to be intelligent, the other half you let your window licking childlike self out for everyone to see. Embarassing lmao.

[@tankourito5419]

​@@salland12After checking out your account, I feel even more second hand embarrassment. Hide your own comment history in the future. It'll save you some shame.

[@Robbadobbsoldier]

8 views in 17 hours. Can’t be right 😮

[@Robbadobbsoldier]

At least I’m the first to comment 😀 hey Fraser!

[@frasercain]

It's only been released to the Patrons.

[@Robbadobbsoldier]

@@frasercain figured it was something like this 👍🏻

[@Leafbinder]

@@Robbadobbsoldier Actually he was kiddnaped and time traveled back 2 days : P

[@cxa24]

I ruin =/

[@xamishia]

Thanks for another interesting interview. Question: About the separate seismic detectors for detecting gravitational waves - you still need measure their deflection in relation to each other, no? Isn't the idea of a gravitational wave that you can't just feel it pass thru you at one point, no matter how sensitive your device?

[@richardreumerman5449]

It's fascinating how the politics and proposal landscape drives the pace of these proposals.

[@richardreumerman5449]

This man is fascinating to listen to, by the way. Thank you for that interview.

[@theblackswan2373]

No fuel problems, no gyros, etc. just naturally stable.

[@cheesedoodlefeeder]

I'm convinced it's easier to conduct astronomy in the place we have been . Not in outer space, but low earth orbit. Protection from harmful radiation by the magnetosphere and much much lower costs to service the telescope if it gets built with the wrong mirror or has other issues.

[@peterallen5575]

Maybe we could call it the Jill Tarter Radio Observatory.

[@jonathonjubb6626]

I haven't got an hour to spare. Could we have a summary please!

[@jlmwatchman]

If we ever want to do astronomy from the Moon we need to get there already. Yes, we have been there, so why don’t we already have a telescope, an outpost, and a laser to stop the asteroids from making it ring? Oh, and the laser might come in handy to stop planet-killing asteroids from killing us like the dinosaurs. The interview covered a lot about putting a telescope on the Moon. Except they did not mention lasers or a 3D Printer to print the telescope with Moon Dust, which would save a lot of trips.

[@BabyMakR]

Could you mount a couple dozen Hubbles on the far side of the moon? Maybe spread around the moon. Exactly like the one in orbit but probably bigger solar panels and batteries to last the 14 days of night, but you wouldn't need gyros to steer it, you could have hydraulic pistons to change it's position. Put them reasonably close to the base so that astronauts can go and perform maintenance and upgrade instruments as needed. The mirrors could be made on the moon as could much of the body of the telescope (which you would sill need to stop dust from coating the mirrors) from native materials with just the science instruments needing to be shipped from earth. Hell, you could start with Hubble sized telescopes and then as they learn how to make them better, make bigger and bigger ones until you have mirrors larger than the ELT. Making the bulk of them out of local materials negates the issue of delivering everything from Earth, and the lower gravity means you can make bigger structures with less material. PS: I like how refering to the far side as the dark side in radio caught Dr. Martin's interest.

[@pk-ld6dp]

Excellent discussion..I would presume the good Dr. also plays guitar as a hobby ? Would cube sats dispersed and landed fully setup for radio astronomy all communicating on a low frequency am band low power etc work to create a something?

[@GalacticWonders371]

Perfect

[@robertbernal8666]

Dr Martin is gonna hate on the industrialists... But humanity must use the Moon as a launch pad 🚀

[@robertgraybeard3750]

outstanding

[@ultrasafenuclear]

Power. You need continuous power, especially when it’s dark when the viewing is best. Build more Pylons!

[@friendlyone2706]

Batteries & cables

[@nbyz]

Question: With the upcoming planned deorbiting of the ISS and subsequent plans for an axiom station soon after, how long are we going to keep using the ISS orbital path? Is there anything special about that orbit?

[@thedevereauxbunch]

Q: could heat tiles on Starship be used on sensitive sections of the launch tower to protect it from immense heat upon takeoff?

[@richardloewen7177]

Early far-side-observatory fiction had a large human-personnel component. Now, we realize that the human component is very expensive and difficult to have--pushing towards using unmanned observatories.

[@tuckfeem0834]

Question: is there any way we could know how a distant galaxy 13.8b years ago might have evolved/look like in actual time? My understanding is that the light we are seeing has been travelling for 13.8b years and so we see the object as it was back then. Maybe some of these galaxies have grown so massive that they are pulling younger galaxies towards them but we just can’t see it. If we could accelerate the photons coming towards us, would we be able to see these galaxies change?

[@hodor3024]

WOO SPACE!

[@Leafbinder]

no thats the Xinese version its SpaceX

[@digi3218]

@@Leafbinder I can't tell if this is a joke or actually a fact 😂

[@RolfStones]

Sounds great, I am a bit more sceptical about starship though. To get to the heavy lifting it needs to do a lot of refueling. Starship will need a far degree of fast reusability to have that making economic sense. Falcon 9 did not lower the cost of launch really that much. Don't get me wrong, even if starship achieves less than promised, it may still be a huge win. But we're still years from being certain the refurbishment needed after every launch will have low costs. The almost complete destruction of the flap was a great lightshow, but work needs to be done.

[@StefenTower]

I was convinced years ago. Where have ya been?

[@michaelpettersson4919]

I believe that we can protect people from radiation by putting them in bunkers. Work outside could done with teleprecense controlled drones. By physically being close to the drone we solve the problem with light lag delaying the control of the drones. Only occasionally would people in spacesuits have to do things manually. We could also make use of elderly pioneers out there. Cancer take time to develop after all. So if a 70 year old astronaut get exposed to radiation it may not really matter that much. One last adventure to enjoy.

[@friendlyone2706]

Likewise, the first to go to Mars should be elderly --- with the deliberate plan to be buried on Mars. We all die -- but to die helping create a new civilization on a new planet... I'd pick a crude Martian shelter over a pampered Earth side hospital bed any day of the week. Many of us in our 70's & older could handle a one way trip to either the moon or Mars.

[@trevinom69]

not mentioned, there are meteors that constantly mar the surface of the moon of all sizes. Without an atmosphere to burn it up before it hits the surface, a baseball-sized meteor striking the telescope/facility could do alot of damage to it and/or any facilities that maintain it.

[@MarinCipollina]

The odds of that happening are vanishingly remote.

[@trevinom69]

@@MarinCipollina doing a cursory search on the internet led me to this: "Meteoroids, which are smaller than one meter in diameter, hit the moon's surface every day, similar to how they hit Earth. On average, about 100 meteoroids the size of pingpong balls hit the moon each day, which adds up to around 33,000 meteoroids per year. These impacts can be forceful, with each rock hitting the surface with the force of 7 pounds of dynamite." Dunno about you, but I'd say 33k meteoroids a year could increase the odds of them hitting any installations we build on the moon a LITTLE higher that your perceived 'vanishingly remote'.

[@AdrianBoyko]

The moon is about 15 million square miles. Divide that by 33,000 meteors and you get one for every 455 sq miles per year. If your telescope takes up an acre that’s roughly one 300,000th of the 455 sq miles. So, yeah, it’s EXTREMELY unlikely to be hit by a goofball sized object.

[@MarinCipollina]

@@trevinom69 The lunar surface includes 37.9 million square kilometers. 100 ping pong ball sized impacts a day on that much surface area makes any single location an improbable target. The installation would need to be exceedingly unlucky.

[@MarinCipollina]

@@AdrianBoyko 1 impact for every 1178 square kilometers sounds like very good odds, even if the station occupies an entire hectare.

[@RemiBusseuil]

How about the issues of moon dust and the landing of a huge precise telescope.

[@danielbrowniel]

We should put a smaller radio telescope on the moon first. We will need a satellite designed to communicate w/ these things. Maybe they can use light based communication instead of radio?

[@trainyoumust]

My little baby owl 🦉 wants to go to the moon ❤

[@EarthAndSky4u]

I have heard the dust is relentless

[@NicholasNerios]

Don't forget lens covers, protection during an eclipse (dependant on placement), space debris (those will be a lunar crypto-coin or more to replace, how ever much one of those are valued).

[@AdrianBoyko]

Protection during an eclipse?

[@richardloewen7177]

Anyone else remember reading Arthur C. Clarke's hard-science fiction on this topic, from the 60s or 50s?

[@everettputerbaugh3996]

Higher orbit for Star-ship: Build a second stage out of the thrusting parts of an old Star-ship. Space-X does think that bigger is better, right?

[@zhorkon]

Great discussion. You convinced me, too. Thanks!

[@CarFreeSegnitz]

5:24 “…peaks of eternal light…” That’s some of the most valuable real estate off Earth. You’re going to have to build an exceptional reason for using it over all the other space-colonizing, space-unlocking uses.

[@izzrainy7410]

setting up power generation is exactly the space-unlocking use you want from these places

[@tactileslut]

Build a case? You're thinking too far within the bureaucracy. Get there first. Be number one.

[@sevex9]

First Elon's constellations mess up earth based observatories, then Elon makes a rocket big enough to obsolesce those observatories. I dig it.

[@murasaki848]

I'd be really surprised if people aren't already approaching SpaceX saying, "well, you're already building out all this construction and launch capability apart from your testing. How about a quick side hustle launching expendable heavy rockets? Starship is already $/kg cheaper than your own Falcon Heavy expendable config..."

[@richardloewen7177]

If lunar surface has advantages over L2, for space-based observatories, should future space-probe telescopes be pushed much farther out, in orbital distance? For example, getting even better parallex measures, when the probe's orbital diameter is asteroidal, or farther out.

[@johnfech3985]

Starship is cool but having it go to the moon once is a massively tall order; for every starship going to the moon it would need between 14 and 18 launches. This is based entirely on the need and ability for starship to do orbital refueling.

[@MarinCipollina]

Don't forget that Musk is promising to turn these things out at the rate of one every day. If that's true, this is a major paradigm shift.

[@salland12]

Musk and his promises.. how is that working out the past years....

[@tankourito5419]

​@@salland12You get upset about Elon Musk. You click on a video with starship on, to cry about Elon Musk. You go scrolling on the comments to let show everyone how upset you are. Pathetic.

[@gcm4312]

Earthlight by Arthur C. Clarke is a good sci-fi read for people interested in the topic

[@friendlyone2706]

Regards lunar dust: Could the more mountainous far side have less dust, or a differently behaving dust?

[@ESTERMON-MINECRAFT-CITY]

I would imagine there would be moon launch sites on the dark side of the moon so it would be difficult to keep it clear for these type of Observatorys unfortunately.