UNLOCKING YUMTOWN: Testing with Scott Rao

[@LanceHedrick]

NOTE: It is not proven that minerals don't affect extraction. I did NOT mean to imply this. Only that in my, admittedly, limited testing, you can definitely understand impact of minerals in tests like this. If there is a difference, I'd argue it is not nearly as big as many would claim. With alkalinity, this test remains absolutely helpful. But, nothing here is proven and remains theoretical, as lots of stuff in coffee is! Very much so ;) Cheers!

[@kg-Whatthehelliseventhat]

Hey Big bro, So good to see a new video.

[@wwoodard8]

In the video, Scott says, “If you were to add the minerals after brewing, coffee tastes the same…” Doesn’t this statement imply that minerals have no effect on brewing (extracting taste)? Maybe you’re making a distinction between extraction and flavor…

[@kg-Whatthehelliseventhat]

@Will Woodard that's odd. I'm still learning, but I have read that for example hard water can not extract well because the water already has stuff in it. You bring up a great point. I would like to know more.

[@taylorsminor]

In my opinion the biggest impact minerals have on extraction is the draw down time. As you add more GH minerals the draw down time speeds up and the grind may need to be tightened to maintain the same extraction. Oddly enough high TDS salt can have the opposite effect. High TDS water softened with salt can take 50% longer to brew. Gotta love the weird and wonderful effects of water 😄

[@Marrow452]

@@kg-Whatthehelliseventhat Yeah, that's not a thing, it's just pseudoscience. The coffee made with very hard water might taste like it hasn't extracted because of associated alkalinity muting all acidity, and hardnesss might be so high the flavour of the water itself is significantly affected. In terms of extraction it's a crazy statement to say that "it is not proven that minerals don't affect extraction" simply because you don't prove that something doesn't happen, you prove that something does. It's far more reasonable to focus on whether or not it is proven that minerals do affect extraction and there's not really any data there to support the idea that they do.

[@Nondescripthumanoid]

in some coffee dystopia hellscape they make the coffee distilled and then charge extra for the minerals to make it taste good 😂

[@BensCoffeeRants]

Only the elite 1% get the minerals, but the rest of the world works mining them.

[@peterlin6419]

The apocalypse timeline

[@alanjarrar]

I'm there to charge that extra🔥

[@TomatePasFraiche]

Coffee DLC

[@HannesNitzsche]

Don’t give them any ideas!

[@SirNichosis]

It's amazing how "up in the air" a lot of coffee variables can be. Things can be so different depending on just roasts and taste preference, and then considering brew temp and water chemistry, it can just be a lot. But instead of being overwhelmed, I think it's good to just have fun and play around with these things. I feel like you could go crazy desperately trying to create the perfect formula for every coffee. Thanks for trying to make a complicated hobby be simple and fun, Lance 🙏🏻

[@scottscottsdale7868]

It seems so complicated to me because it is an organic product. Imagine how hard making beer is. Or making wine. Or baking pastries. But you are right. It should be fun.

[@insightphoto]

The very important issue of water is a deep, deep rabbit hole. Thanks for taking us to the edge so we can have a look see how deep the hole is!

[@LIL-MAN-THE-OG]

Along with pre infusion, do Moka pots yield real espresso, de-clumping your grind before tamping, and more alternate realities

[@drazenbabich]

@@LIL-MAN-THE-OG Pre-infusion, pressure profiling, RDT, WDT, using distributor as a tamper, thumb-tamper, palm tamper, puck screen, basket filter etc etc... yet people still come back from their Italian and Spanish trips claiming they tasted best espresso there, ever. 🙂 Actually of all the ones I mention the only closest one to reality for me is pre-infusion. 25+ years of espresso pulling at home, four E61, one saturated grouphead and one single boiler machine later.

[@Caffeine.And.Carvings]

@Drazen Babich living in Germany and having traveled Italy and Spain on a few accounts, I'm not really a fan of the super dark classic roasts. Also even in a good traditional Italian Cafe, the espresso is ok but not to my liking. Almost like an entirely different drink. I'm sure there are modern takes on coffee on Italy and Spain as well, but at least with Italy their pride in their food culture kinda limits them from progressing to modern espresso. And people saying it was better than at home either don't have a good home setup, or are romantizizing the coffee experience with their holiday. And even in my favorite local roasterys, the coffee there is not as good as my C40/flair setup at home with good prep

[@drazenbabich]

@@Caffeine.And.Carvings Modern espresso isn't necessary a better espresso, it's just different espresso. Some like it while many prefer the old and original.

[@Incip1]

@@drazenbabich the one thing that wowed me was their sugar roasted coffee (wow in a bad way). Torrefacto. Like making cheap candy

[@LuckyDragon289]

I just got a set of Lotus Water Drops and am looking forward to experimenting with my water chemistry more. I do wish, however, that Lotus sold refill versions of the chemicals to cut down on the amount of expensive packaging being used. The glass bottles are very attractive, but I don't want to be accumulating dozens of them

[@michelbrode1067]

Interesting video! I really like the Lotus water minerals. My “first-try-before-making-adjustments” Lotus recipe that I feel works with pretty much all of my coffees is very similar to the no 2 cup in this video. Although it has the same hardness and alkalinity, I use 3 Ca, 3 Mg, 5 K and 1 Na (for 450ml). I haven’t played with all possible variations but I find trying different variations really easy with Lotus. I never could quite bring myself to “build” my own water before Lotus (BL) ☕️🤩

[@Fidalgodev]

Lotus seems cool! Altough quite expensive for what it is... You can make a concentrate of 1L of something similar for cents, with Epsom Salt and baking soda. Shipping to UK is also 42$ which is insane...

[@danymeeuwissen5973]

Will be cheaper if you order it from Europe. Just keep in mind VAT (and custom duties) will be added when it enters the UK.

[@robertjason6885]

What you are describing is an offshoot of the late chemist Dr Robert Pavlis, certainly an “influencer” as to water chemistry. I mixed my own water.. and still do. Haven’t experimented with Lotus as yet…..

[@yandeslongchamps]

Convenience is expensive

[@LorenzoNW]

You left out the cost of an accurate scale that goes down to .01 gram, an accurate calibration weight, and your time.

[@aggiebrandon2007]

Yes!! I love the science of coffee and how certain elements can completely transform a coffee. As a QC Chemist, this has been one of the most important aspects of my brewing. I have gone as far as testing my water recipes with a ICP (inductively coupled plasma) instrument. Very interesting to add elements post brew. Thank you for the thought provoking content Lance! If by chance you read this, one quick question. You can choose one of the three setups for espresso and pour over, which do you choose? 1) EG-1 (core and brew burrs swap when needed) 2) 2 x P100 with choice of burrs 3) 078 and 078s

[@LanceHedrick]

Even tho the eg1 is my favorite of the three, I'm going with 2x p100s

[@drazenbabich]

@@LanceHedrick Same here, I also give an edge to P100 over EG-1. Expecting a retaliation from those hard core WW fans now...:-)

[@Mercilon]

Brandon, any chance you could throw some brews into the ICP (or an LCMS may be a better method) to see what changes after adding in the lotus water?!

[@aggiebrandon2007]

@Mercilon unfortunately I can't. The specific instrument is calibrated for crystalline inorganic solids that use water as a transport medium. I would risk carbon build up on th e torch column.

[@machines117]

@@drazenbabich why would there be any retaliation? I have the EG-1 and have used the P100 and totally agree with lance. Both grinders are quite different and have their own strengths. To me the eg-1(core) excels in its versatility whilst the P100 is basically a extreme EG-1 with ultra burrs.

[@gertbehrmann4877]

If I understand this correctly, then it’s a very good reason to buy locally. I’m probably just lucky, but the water in my town is very soft and generally really nice. And my preferred, very capable roaster is also in town, surely using the very same water. So, nothing special for me to do to get my cup of coffee exactly like the roaster intended. Lucky indeed.

[@r_bear]

I wouldn't say "surely"; lots of businesses will use reverse osmosis on tap and/or use remineralization cartridges.

[@gertbehrmann4877]

@@r_bear I can’t say with a hundred per cent certainty with regards to my roasters, but the water here is just that good that there isn’t much of a point to “create” custom mineral contents when it just flows out of the tap. I actually got the Lotus water kit, but then realised looking at recipes that I would just recreate what is “on tap” anyway.

[@MistahGamah]

@@gertbehrmann4877 >there isn’t much of a point to “create” custom mineral contents when it just flows out of the tap is not quite true, depending on whether your roasters expect to mostly sell to local customers or to move a significant volume of product across the country/world. Either way they should probably optimize their roasts for the water that they expect their end customers to use. If they mostly sell locally, this will be your tap water. But if they ship 80% of their beans halfway across the world, the roaster has a less precise idea of what sort of water their end customer might use, and might well try to optimize their roast for the (or a range of the) most commonly used waters by their customers (which then should involve filtering + remineralizing as necessary)

[@gertbehrmann4877]

Personally I’m not a fan of the global market. I try to shop as locally as possible. When it comes to coffee, “as local as possible” means the roaster. There’s no coffee growing anywhere around here. “My roaster” is a small, local (I could literally walk there) roaster. Considering how fast his batches sell out, I’d say 80% of his customers are local. Most, if not all of them, using the same water supply. Admittedly I’m most likely in a rare situation where there’s an excellent roaster nearby, and the water quality is near perfect for making coffee. But it is what it is. I’m not against Lotus, nor other water minerals, i backed the Lotus Kickstarter. But I don’t need it. And it’s just wasteful to buy demineralised water and then add minerals, when what’s flowing out the tap is the same stuff. I also think that shipping roasted coffee halfway around the globe is a bit daft. I’d rather buy it freshly roasted locally and then rest it under optimal conditions for a while.@@MistahGamah

[@Coffeenerdtools]

Goodness gracious… this content with you and Scott is exactly what the coffee world needed

[@Java_CM]

After getting into specialty coffee for about a year now I decided to take the next step into "coffee water". My sink filtration system was working pretty well but the results vary too much. Amazing cup one day to multiple mediocre cups, to some pretty bad but drinkable cups. Going to give Lotus and TWW a try very soon and hope it improves with taste and consistency, looking forward to it!

[@wren0287]

Hi Lance - Do you use these types of water in your espresso machines? Thanks

[@CaveyMoth]

If you have a large batch of modified coffee water, do the compounds settle to the bottom over time, requiring you to mix it before each brew?

[@homecafecharlie]

I remember trying the Lotus water and enjoying the process and experimentation with different recipes. It gets nerdy fast but I wish people could see how important the water is. Espresso is like 98% water, of course it's gonna make a big difference!

[@LanceHedrick]

Espresso is about 90%. I think you meant filter coffee ha! But easy mistake Hope you're well and settled in your new (old) home country!

[@barjee8965]

​@@LanceHedrick Would it make THAT much difference with espresso? you would only notice by a factor of about 10 right?

[@zionwright7]

I truly appreciate your vid’s Lance this one was extremely helpful in my coffee venture. Thank you once again

[@zionwright7]

Shout outs to Scott Rao as well

[@BrucePappas]

Brilliant. Great seeing Scott and you collaborating.

[@montagdp]

Very interesting. I just tried brewing with distilled water on a very light roast that's been giving me problems. Normally the acidity has been pretty sharp and unpleasant, with a finish that could probably be described as chalky. With distilled water it was not sharp at all, but it was a bit flat. I added in a pinch of baking soda and epsom salts to the cup, and it's the best I've had with this coffee. This leads me to believe the water recipe I've been using may have too high alkalinity. This certainly opens up a lot of possibilities for dialing in, which TBH I kind of wish I didn't have to worry about... Coffee sure is a finicky thing.

[@mathanatos]

So excited with this kind of videos!! love my lotus kit and Scott's work!! would like to ask if you did the exercise of adding the minerals before brewing and afterwards and try to triangulate the odd one out !

[@Housechild1990]

Thanks for this video. I have found it difficult to find information on optimal water profiles for coffee. I brew beer and it's essential to get right and changes a good beer to a great one. In our context we focus on sulphate and chloride and the ratio of these to excentuate hop character and bitterness (sulphate higher) and mouthfeel and maltiness (chloride higher). You mentioned not liking sulphate. Did you find that it made it more bitter? Have you tried changing chloride levels with something like calcium chloride? Would be keen to hear your thoughts and a follow up video that goes deeper.

[@Wip3out_]

Are there going to be any official distributors in Europe/UK?

[@JuliusSP1]

Really cool Lance. I'll be buying these. Thank you

[@benjaminseigal5192]

Great video, as a chemist who has looked into food science to help in the kitchen. You are talking about alkalinity without talking about the sodium and potassium ion affecting the taste. They will be different.

[@PurajitMalalur]

Surprised that you didn't have to use the incantation to get Scott Rao to appear. Or maybe it was done before the camera started rolling?

[@vizzo7]

Fantastic video. Would have been nice to know the extraction. Also what would have happened if you would have used less or more GH? I will have to try it out

[@BensCoffeeRants]

Does the flavour change take place if you were adding magnesium or calcium post brew as well? I think that might still make more of an impact during the extraction phase. It makes sense changing the alkalinity after brew would affect the coffee but it is interesting it seemed to affect the perception of flavour notes, not just the acidity or alkalinity.

[@gimig91]

We just did this test with my gf using zero water and the lotus drops, we found very little difference between the 4 cups, we then made the same experience with different calcium and magnesium concentrations, there was a much more noticeable difference, we agreed that higher concentration of calcium was tasting much better than higher concentration of magnesium. We made the coffee using a V60 and Appolon's gold coffee (a Guatemala).

[@briangroft6322]

Are you guys using the round or straight dripper?

[@slvrbach]

Definitely saved this to refer back to later!

[@jeffdirks360]

How can I access Dr. Smrke's paper/study that Scott mentioned?

[@erikngomez]

This is a super insightful video and I can't wait to try cup 2 recipe with my lotus water drops. Is this effectively "light and bright" recipe or is it slightly different?

[@danymeeuwissen5973]

The second cup they brewed is somewhat similar to the "light & bright" brew recipe (60 ppm GH/25 ppm KH). But light & bright only uses 2 minerals (Ca & K) while cup 2 in the video used all 4 Lotus minerals. ;-)

[@sebastianbjoernestad]

Hey Lance, I'm lucky enough to be going to Athens in a few weeks. Will you be selling the Lotus Water Kits there? Shipping is extremely expensive where I live - it literally doubles the price...

[@kylelopez6219]

Is this possible in a cupping setting?😊 trying to control the variables as much as possible to avoid human error! Thanks Lance!

[@cheekster777]

Important topic. Thanks Lance.

[@nickkom7866]

Regarding the conclusion that it suffices to add minerals after brewing, does it hold true for espresso as well ?

[@LanceHedrick]

Theoretically!

[@YannikCoffee]

Where can I get water for this in Europe/Germany which is safe to drink? I could buy distilled water for car batteries etc. in some grocery stores but I'm concerned because it's not food grade.

[@Belegnole]

Water is definitely something that can effect extractions and what one perceives when drinking. For espresso I have settled on Dr. Pavlis' recipe. It's worked well for the last 11 years or so for me and my machines.

[@LanceHedrick]

It affects taste but how can you prove it is affecting extraction?

[@Belegnole]

@@LanceHedrick I've read a couple of papers stating that if you use distilled water vs mineral water you can see a difference in extraction. Just measure the TDS of each. As to what minerals may or may not improve taste? I think that is where things become more subjective and difficult to accurately test.

[@adamtousek7622]

I would love to try the Lotus water set but the price is a bit much when I count shipping to europe, import taxes etc. Is there an alternative or a plan to have a european distributor?

[@ManeManChannel]

You can very easily make your own concentrates, barista hustle have a good guide

[@wwoodard8]

Maybe also take on a discussion of grind size? Does it make a real difference (other than modulating water flow speed)?

[@JuliusSP1]

I would like to know which to use for the alkalinity and how they affect the cup?

[@TheGroundedCoffee]

Lance man, you're throwing out banger after banger with these vids. I was thinking about this exact thing for the last while but couldn't find any decent information online (might be my own lack of google-fu). How are soldering and crimping skills progressing? ;)

[@harflin]

Lance, do you or Scott have any insight on using Mg in espresso machines? I was learning about water chemistry through Barista Hustle (as recommended by Daddy Hoff), and their recipes using Mg and So, but they recommend against it due to the potential for corrosion, citing that Mg doesn't cause protective buildup like Ca does. For a home brewer, is this a warranted concern? Can I trade the Mg for Ca (with proper conversions), and be good to go? Note that I'm primarily concerned with machine longevity, and am not overly worried about the differences in taste from swapping between Mg and Ca. Thank you!

[@retsz1]

How would you apply this with espresso. I remember seeing someone wetting their puck before pulling a shot.

[@brew.matawan]

Is it possible to do this in cupping form. I really don't like the idea of 2 different brews

[@LanceHedrick]

You don't have to do two different brews. We didn't. Same brew. Split cups.

[@JPC326]

Got them in the kickstarter and love them !

[@starflower2225]

I also was told to not use distilled water in my espresso machine. It’s quite acidic. I prefer to use RO water with minerals added for brewing. Distilled water is expensive and comes in thin plastic containers. Not a good idea.

[@LanceHedrick]

I am pretty sure I never recommended distilled in an espresso machine lol Definitely don't. It will corrode

[@starflower2225]

@@LanceHedrick oh sorry, I misunderstood then. I thought you were saying to use distilled for brewing then add Lotus.

[@BensCoffeeRants]

@@starflower2225 he didn't make these on his espresso machine though, these are pour overs, it's probably fine for a kettle, which isn't a sealed boiler and not on all the time. I was always curious like how bad is it really? Like how long would it take to cause any real damage using distilled water in an espresso machine. It's not like it's super acidic. BTW Reverse osmosis and distilled should be about equivalent (basically no minerals so both are about just as acidic) neither is supposed to be good for your espresso machine. But you're ok if you're adding proper amounts of minerals back to either RO or Distilled.

[@LanceHedrick]

I was saying one can use this, as outlined in Scott's blog, as a practice to understand mineral effect on coffee

[@starflower2225]

@Bens Coffee Rants. You’re correct, it’s not as acidic as I thought. It’s a ph value of 7 so only slightly acidic but still not cost effective. I’ve tested the RO water I buy and usually the tds value is around 7-13. My filtered water from the tap is around 235 so can’t use it unless I dilute it with RO but still I think there would be too much calcium (in Fl.) so better to control it with the addition of minerals instead.

[@TIWN_12]

Does anyone know where I can find publications/informal articles from the chemist that was referenced in the beginning of the video?

[@LanceHedrick]

Samo smrke. Google his name

[@NoopDawg]

Does anyone have a link to the thing that Samo Smrke wrote?? I'm interested to read it

[@BassontheRoof]

Yo Lance, have you already done a video on Water Quality and it's variables, PPM, why it's not really useable or perhaps still is, as an easy sensor to buy, and some modern terminology for these factors. I think we could do with clearing things up and many of us are not in such a position as you to test things. Much appreciated

[@Jahloveipraise]

Great video man. So does the mineral content not affect the extraction itself? Would the cups taste different if you brewed it with the remineralized water vs adding post brew?

[@tommihommi1]

the answer is that no scientific study in this regard has taken place yet. You'll find people like scott claiming adding it afterwards tastes the same, you'll find other people claiming it doesn't. The post from Samo that Scott is referencing here was nothing more than idle speculation, quoting a study that didn't do any relevant tests. For buffer it may very well make no difference, though.

[@LanceHedrick]

I spoke with Samo about this in my water video, as well. He seems to think it is the case. To be fair, I haven't done loads of testing with this, at all

[@Jahloveipraise]

@@LanceHedrick Thank you guys 🙏🏽 I look forward to many more videos about it, I appreciate your thorough and scientific approach to testing products and theories

[@KayintVeen]

This is so Much better then those pre made packets. Where to best order in Europe. Any distributor available?

[@LanceHedrick]

Check caption! God shot in Belgium

[@221b-l3t]

What PH should the brew water be? And total ppm? That's all I can measure.

[@kevinsatsky4631]

Would be interesting to see how pH affects taste as well. I’ve always heard the 6.5-7.5 is ideal for coffee brewing, but my water measures about 8.3 after adding all my minerals in. Not sure if this affects taste at all

[@Incip1]

depends how much buffer you added. get a pool test kit and measure the acid demand (acid required to neutralize pH). pH can be moderate like yours but still neutralize all of the nice acidity in brewed coffee (flat taste) I'm no expert just my 2c

[@pjrage82]

I’ve been wondering if using a zerowater filter to create water to start from for lotus water would be close enough to using distilled? Have you experimented with this? Thanks!

[@danymeeuwissen5973]

I use a zero water filter too with the Lotus drops, works perfectly. The only thing to consider is that if your tap water is really hard, you will go through the zero filters quicker.

[@BensCoffeeRants]

Properly working filtered 0 water is supposed to have 0 TDS so should be similar (or the same?) as distilled, reverse osmosis water I believe should be good too, usually should be close to 0ppm if everything is working right! My R.O system has alkalizing / post re-mineralizing filter so I'm getting out about 18ppm right now, which isn't much hardness. The only down side to that is I don't really know what kind of minerals it's adding back.

[@JameelAlayyan]

Minerals do affect extraction, especially with espresso where the extraction ratios are tighter. With drip, the taste would be less noticeable.

[@LanceHedrick]

Do you have proof? So far there isn't proof of this.

[@JameelAlayyan]

@@LanceHedrick Have you tested the TDS of espresso with the minerals added before and after extraction?

[@jamiethomson8456]

@@JameelAlayyan i have on a tank machine. And given that the minerals are in concentrations in parts per million, the effect on extraction is 0.01-0.015. Completely negligible. Given commercial espresso machines are plumbed this is a great way to offer a different experience for the espresso.

[@benjaminbutton3476]

I find different water recipes change my draw down time. Do you notice a time change between brewing with distilled vs then brewing with the found optimal recipe?

[@LanceHedrick]

More minerals (really hard water) can definitely slow down the draw down.

[@starflower2225]

I also found that to be the case and tastes terrible. Not only do I brew with mineral water but also add trace minerals after not really for taste but health reasons.

[@perchengh7710]

@@LanceHedrick Is there any quantitative test or paper researching on that ?

[@Caffeine.And.Carvings]

Hey Lance, super interesting video. From what I thought so far: the water recipes heavily influences taste, by giving the coffee particles that extract something to bind to (the minerals). So how does the addition of minerals after compares to addition before? I figure more calcium would extract more. Or does distilled extract more, when there are more free, non mineral bound water molecules available?

[@LanceHedrick]

As I referenced in the video, it is currently being hypothesized that minerals do not affect extraction and only flavor and mouthfeel. This exercise was to help understand further personal preference without having to commit to multiple recipes

[@Caffeine.And.Carvings]

@Lance Hedrick oh okay. Seems like I'm not fully up to speed on the latest findings :) can't wait to see what's coming in the future regarding water science

[@atzedevries9563]

Can we set this a bit in context? Is this really snob level? Or should an average coffee lover care? Is there a difference in impact between espresso and filter? (note that this is a pretty hard discussion since tap water is different everywhere.

[@stephenstephen-mr4hm]

I was told from latte love that I should not put distilled water in my espresso machine. They commented that distilled water would destroy the machine overtime. What do you think?

[@mirkosala2213]

That's true, no alcalinity corrodes metal pipes

[@LanceHedrick]

Correct. I was not advising to switch to distilled in an espresso machine. This is simply an exercise

[@mladinaucnik]

Another variable(s) in coffee alchemy 😄

[@Sneedles]

I noticed you used the phrase "really unique” a lot. The problem is unique is binary (it’s either one of a kind or it isn’t). It’s like saying a computer is really on or really off. Just a minor gripe I had with the video. I really enjoy your videos and appreciate the effort you put behind them so thank you for them.

[@LanceHedrick]

Words are much easier to come by I'm hindsight when watching. A tad more difficult when on the fly. I invite you to give it a go! Especially in front of one to whom you've looked up for a decade. Lol Appreciate the watch!

[@MPC325NYC]

I'm quite confused at what Scott has said. Did he say that 1) you can extract coffee without minerals in the water, and 2) if you add the minerals after the extraction, your coffee is going to taste the same as having minerals beforehand? Reading Jonathan Gagne's book, it sounds wrong. Can someone tell me what Scott meant? Thank you.

[@LanceHedrick]

Yes that is correct. I have also said this. And so has Samo smrke in a video I did with him

[@MPC325NYC]

@@LanceHedrick thanks for the clarification. So, my initial understanding was that minerals help extract coffee but I guess I will go and watch your other videos first to understand this concept. On a different note, I have been making water according to the Dr. Gagne’s spreadsheet and the resulting taste of coffee is just awful. Would you be able to do a video on how to troubleshoot when your custom water makes bad coffee? Thanks.

[@JayPFrancis]

The Lance recipe from Lotus that we use is his 13 drops calcium and 11 drops potassium per liter of distilled water.

[@GabrielGGabGattringer]

I´ll say just that: Make it as widely available and as affordable as TWW and I´m in. "widely available" maybe is a bit of a stretch as there is only 1 shop in Austria which stocks TWW.

[@LanceHedrick]

We have it priced comparably to two per gallon. I believe a bit less. Issue is vat might increase it. Working on a solution

[@justinbouchard]

Just a couple of dudes sharing cups while sipping some nerdy coffee :)

[@minhphan7509]

Are those Fiorenzato flat burr hand grinders on the shelves ?

[@Incip1]

yeah, they look like junk, that may be why no review yet from Lance

[@johnlindgreen]

Interesting. I drink very light roasts and usually use a 20ppm mix with around 6kh and 14gh. Much higher kh levels out acidity to the point of being uninteresting.

[@LanceHedrick]

"Uninteresting" is highly coffee dependent as well as highly subjective. With coffee collective, I use barely any minerals as that's similar to the water they cup with (should be noted your example isn't how ppm and gh/kh works. They don't just add up for total ppm) Lots of coffees are much better with 40KH, like Manhattan. They roast their coffee on water with about 40kh.

[@johnlindgreen]

@@LanceHedrick Yes, I have based my water on Coffee Collective, which my ppm meter reads to 20 ppm. My mix also does, but I know it’s inaccurate, since it expects a different composition for it’s measurement. But still that’s what I have to go by. Anyways, I do base it on the Barista Hustle recipe, where they say: If your buffer amount used was 30g, and your Mg amount was 60g (90g total), you would be adding this to 910g of distilled water (1000g minus 90g). You’ll get the hang of it by reading the recipes above. This would give you a KH of 30ppm and a GH of 60ppm. So, my kh and gh should be accurate and hence quite lower than your example, which could be due to taste or to roast profile.

[@dan138zig]

does that mean my final brew should be 450/225ml for the math to be easy? how do you target that?

[@aleksandarskeparovski7541]

wait wait wait... I am now confused.... BWT published their research stating that their water mineral exchange filters help in the coffee extraction process (specifically Mg). How on earth now we have something completely oposit?

[@LanceHedrick]

First, consider the source. Second, have you read this research?

[@aleksandarskeparovski7541]

@@LanceHedrick I completely get that.. everyone is marking their product as being the best. We are all used to enhancing the water before the extraction till now.

[@BensCoffeeRants]

It could still be true, we didn't see them taste test any differences between calcium or magnesium amounts here, my theory is that those play more a part of the extraction and might not make a difference in taste if added afterwards.

[@amandapeine6745]

It seems confusing to call the magnesium and calcium solutions "cations" while the others are called "sodium" and "potassium". All 4 of those things are cations, and one of the big meaningful parts of 2 solutions (bicarbonate) is omitted from the solution name.

[@LanceHedrick]

Don't be so nitpicky. I'm not trying to prove any point with the nomenclature. They all are cations. Not disproving that. Was just referencing them quickly. No inference needs to be made there.

[@amandapeine6745]

@@LanceHedrick it's true I am definitely picky!

[@hjfragrances]

Can someone tell me what those cups are he’s using ?

[@danymeeuwissen5973]

Orea sense cup!

[@hjfragrances]

@@danymeeuwissen5973 thank you!

[@henrytung9324]

You next need to invite a water sommelier, they've been tasting water before it was cool

[@LanceHedrick]

Oh I'm familiar with Martin. I've been trying to get in contact with him lol

[@henrytung9324]

@@LanceHedrick I shall eagerly await

[@zenadventurer69]

Wow….this is kind of sort of revelatory. Thanks!!!! I remineralize with magnesium, calcium and potassium before brewing based on an SCA recipe…but I’m going to give post brewing a shot. It’s easy enough to make a concentrate with food-grade minerals and then I just dose it by the gram with a syringe, generally in 1,000 ml batches. Scott Rao’s recipe is a good one too (available on Barista Hustle). Keep up the good work.

[@SKG-d2t]

I can’t nerd out to this degree. Does anyone make it simple: buy a gallon of this kind of water, put #X drops in it, shake and use. Call it baseline and let those who can wrap their head around more do so. I am using Crystal Geyser, bottled at Mt.Shasta, and moving on.

[@LanceHedrick]

That's what lotus literally is. Buy distilled. Recipes of how many drops of each on the website. Shake and heat.

[@SKG-d2t]

I will read it again, it would be the last piece of my espresso progress, other than trying different beans. Thank you @@LanceHedrick

[@SKG-d2t]

Once I re-read & re-watched relevant info I made a batch of the Matt Perger recipe because I had the ingredients on hand. I think there is a difference, the flavor is rounder. As if I recognize ‘hollow’ by its absence, it is subtle. I will order the Lotus pack next. Thank you

[@glen.moralee]

Thank you and please make many more videos about coffee water. I’d particularly like to see more coffee water videos about espresso.

[@dirkh2122]

Dejavu, James Hoffmann did almost the same in his “Hack Sour Espresso”…also referring to some discussion with Scott. I think the real interesting thing from here would be if it actually makes a difference if minerals added before or after brewing affect taste…and if it is all about balancing acidity to unlock or mute certain notes of flavor. Thx for the work.

[@JuliusSP1]

I would have probably said number 4 is tastey.

[@JulianAndresKlode]

Next add extra virgin olive oil

[@it-s-a-mystery]

Wouldn't doing it this way corrode my kettle? After posting this I realised that it's not a test you would actually perform often enough to likely have to worry about. Would only really be an issue if you did it too many times.

[@2s_company_]

What's with the sound of all the pencil scratching in the background?

[@Hoserzzz]

Listening to a cupping has to be the most irritating thing on the planet. But on a scientific level, I'd be interested to see how they're brewing with distilled. Are you boiling in glass? Boiling distilled water is a very good solvent, I'd be surprised if you aren't pulling ions from the kettle or whatever you're boiling in.

[@GregoryM1]

Just want to throw it out there that a lot of higher end espresso machine's warranties will be voided if the water is too hard.

[@LanceHedrick]

Yes. This is not suggesting anything about adding minerals to espresso machines.

[@davidrogala7597]

👍

[@Incip1]

fascinating and infuriating. i can safely say i hate water

[@kleung1812]

Interesting

[@swedishdad]

Would be great to see a similar test for cold-brewed coffee

[@philindeblanc]

should be using sodium carbonate, not metal based to raise alk...at least from my understanding

[@LanceHedrick]

Nope. Bicarbonate

[@philindeblanc]

​@@LanceHedrick I think you are right, as bicarbonate brings up pH and alk. While carbonate only brings up pH. Swimming pool chem, LOL. thanks for the correction!

[@philindeblanc]

@@LanceHedrick I checked into this a bit more with testing, and it looks like Sodium Carbonate/aka Soda Ash brings up both Alk and pH. Baking soda/Sodium Bicarbonate mainly raises alkalinity, and borax/aka sodium tetraborate raises pH.

[@RA-nq1xs]

Espresso is already complicated enough, I’m good w spring water:)

[@martinruyant6884]

Interesting experiment, but without blind tasting I think this isn't very meaningful. Lots of potential biases here: the order in which you cupped, the fact Scott shared his observations right off the bat, the expectation that a certain mineral would do X etc.

[@LanceHedrick]

@@martinruyant6884 you realize this wasn't the only time we've done this...

[@martinruyant6884]

@@LanceHedrick were any of those other times done as blind tests? I don't think I heard you mention it in the video, and if these happened, how they were done. There's just so much room for biases and placebo effect when it comes to anything to do with the senses, that I think this sort of testing is critical to get to any sort of truth. And sharing how this was done also seems critical. Not saying a video should become a research paper, but sharing your methodology would be a good start. If it was somewhere in the video and I missed it, my bad.

[@joeljohn1336]

Is this safe for kidneys?

[@LanceHedrick]

Is what safe for kidneys? The minerals that are found in your tap water in much higher concentrations?

[@Benson0913]

why not just add salt

[@c0mbat15]

I love you work Lance. As do I that of James and Kyle. But I find it strange that there is so much focus on water and across the coffee world and almost no focus on milk. I know that the real coffee afficionados don't use milk but the majority of the coffee drinking world do. Furthermore, the majority of the coffee drunk from coffee shops are majority milk with water second. So what difference does milk make? It's huge. Far more than water. So why isn't there more research in to the effects of milk?

[@hugoferrazporto]

First! 😂

[@Andrew-wp1bz]

Don’t think so this time haha.

[@hugoferrazporto]

​@@Andrew-wp1bz 😢😢😢😢😢

[@Andrew-wp1bz]

PSA: you don’t need lotus drops to do this. Jkim Makes has some videos on single dosing minerals in his channel. You can use the same method to test this out.

[@LanceHedrick]

Well duh lol. I will say Baca drops, what he uses, was 100% inspired by Lotus. I spoke with Baca (not Chris baca) about it. I cofounded lotus and it is a product that is more translatable. But literally all the minerals in lotus can be bought and made at home. No secret there lol

[@Andrew-wp1bz]

Baca drops iirc is adding mineral drops to the top of your espresso puck, and brewing with distilled water to be able to single dose espresso water in a boiler machine. JKims videos on single dosing water were up long before lotus came out.

[@LanceHedrick]

Really? We announced lotus in 2021. His video is December 2021. Not saying he was at all influenced by it but just saying lolol I didn't see that video. Just found it. But yeah- I've always been v clear lotus isn't needed. People can make their own at home easily.

[@Andrew-wp1bz]

Yes no doubt. I recommend lotus all the time as it’s far more convenient. You announced lotus before the kickstart? I didn’t realise that. Maybe you were first.

[@jbstans]

LANCE I want to support you but my god your international shipping... $60 for the starter kit, $42-$85(!!!) for shipping. I just can't.

[@LanceHedrick]

Where are you located? In Belgium, we have a reseller. And we are working on more around the world currently.

[@jbstans]

@@LanceHedrick UK - who’s your Belgian supplier? Seems quite likely to be cheaper than that…

[@johnpearson7815]

+1 on this. Want to get this in the UK!

[@jbstans]

So I just saw the links when I went back to my desktop - Scott's international shipping is $9 compared to the $42-85 to order direct! Might be worth asking him who he's using! It was actually about $10 to order from him than it was from The God Shot, too. I do hope you find a UK based supplier, though - I would love to be able to use these ongoing. I don't have the time to be mixing up my own solutions.

[@tommihommi1]

I'm very much not convinced about the hypothesis that adding water afterwards tastes the same, and in testing of friends this has very much not been the case. And most importantly, the scientific study samo mentioned very much doesn't have anything implying this either, considering ludicrously high concentrations were used in tests there.

[@LanceHedrick]

That's fine!

[@LanceHedrick]

Also, I love the repetitive use of "very much." Nice, dramatic emphasis ;)

[@tommihommi1]

@@LanceHedrick as a non native speaker this happens sometimes. the good news is that this water stuff may be on the list of things the hendon lab might investigate soon.

[@LanceHedrick]

That's great! And I assume this is Thomas gaggia paros?

[@SpencerDonahue]

I think the "we" Scott speaks of ignores all the people that were already doing professional water tastings that observed the exact same thing re minerals and water.

[@LanceHedrick]

Thats fair!