UPS/Battery Backup Buyer Beware!!

[@neuralglitch9063]

The APC "Back-UPS" line advertises a "step sine wave", which has the same "approximate" RMS value as a pure sine wave. That is clearly explained right on the box. If you want a pure sine wave you'd want the APC "Smart-UPS" model which produces a sine wave superior to your wall outlet. As someone mentioned here, that step sine wave cleans up nice with a load on the unit, so this "test" is skewed from the start. I worked for APC in W Kingston RI, for 16 years, then "retired" with enough stock from their ESOP plan to live pretty well at a fairly young age. I decided to leave when they sold the brand to Schneider electric. Those were some GREAT times and APC was a great place to work back then. Ahhh the good ol days...... ☺

[@lil_per_vert]

can i use a Simulated Sine Wave UPS with my Computer having an Active PFC power supply ? will it damage my PC ?

[@mxslick50]

APC was the best before the sellout, um, buyout. I used to spec APC on all of my installs, but after having a run of VERY bad experiences with APC (including two smokey failures and several that actually produced flames and swelled batteries,) I went to Tripp-Lite and never looked back.

[@DjghostyMusic]

that sucks, Schneider isn't good from what I heard.

[@michaelwilkes0]

So a few things. First, the older ones will likely look a tad better with a load on it. There was no load plugged in. It wont look a lot better, it wont change the conclusion, but it might look slightly better. Second, they are not supposed to run inductive loads (that fan), because, well, they suck too much to do that correctly so the company just tells you not to do that :) Third, if you are using it as a computer backup, computer power supplies basically handle that garbage waveform quite well. They just turn all that crap into DC anyway. Yes, a real sine wave is easier on the components, but no one should really worry about running a pc like that for 10 minutes each month. Thats how we have been doing it for 3 decades. Its not as good, but its totally fine. Fourth, that new sine wave is surprisingly good. Hopefully that circuitry has become cheap enough that all the UPS are going to start offering that. Kind of impressive. Oh, fifth, i think the probe needs to be compensated, the tip of the wave is leaning to the right slightly. Unless thats actually just how your power looks. Im not sure.

[@javaman2883]

My computer power supply makes noise when it's running on the UPS, a Cyber Power CST135XLU that's about a year old. It's frustrating buying an UPS designed specifically for computer equipment, to find it's not really up to the job, and that I should have spent $180 for the right one rather than the $150 one in the same computer store. Both boxes made it sound like they were perfect for powering computers. Just the one mentioned sine wave for "compatibility" with more computers.

[@Desert-edDave]

@@javaman2883 You do realize the purpose of a station-side UPS is solely to afford enough time for the computer to perform a proper shutdown and not at all intended to be a sustained alternate power source, right? Hence why many include a USB cable(or similar) and software (e.g.: APC Powerchute).

[@fixitman2174]

Agreed. This video is based on misguided guesswork at best. Research was obviously limited to Amazon listing details. People who trust Amazon should not be trusted.

[@masterTigress96]

@@javaman2883 Are you sure it's the computers power supply unit? I have a fairly basic 850VA UPS and that thing makes noise as soon as it kicks in, not my other equipment. Can you try to run an extension cord from the UPS to your computer and test it? I have many devices, including power hungry computers hooked up to my UPS and none of them make any more/different noises when the UPS engages. I should note I try to use decent PSU's for the computers, Seasonic branded ones where possible with decent efficiency ratings (80 Plus Gold minimum) and that could play into it as well. If you have an old garbage supply then that could also be the reason, but then you have a whole other issue on your hands. A UPS cannot protect you from a bad PSU.

[@variancewithin]

@@Desert-edDavemost outages are small blips though. Much better for the sake of not having downtime to just power through any small outages and if it keeps being out for say 5 minutes start shutting the plant down

[@PierreFromCanada]

Just my 2-bits... It all depends on what you are planning to plug in to your UPS.... IN the old days... The argument of sine-wave "quality" made sense with inductive transformers to prevent core overheating. Today nobody uses transformers on input. All power supplies are now switching DC to DC(at least for modern electronics.) that immediately rectify the input. In your example the FAN motor is directly connected to, and expecting, AC current (not DC). That is why it exhibited issues with the "quality" of the Alternate Current switching(@50-60HZ) ... For modern electronics like: LED TV, laptops, routers, desktop computers etc.. , they convert power to DC and down-step the voltage. A modified sine-wave on INPUT will not be an issue. However, your FAN, or any other household appliance could have issues and eventually burnout.

[@Echo_Hotel]

Radios

[@zakypradikto3576]

Quick question sir. Is it okay to use stepped sine wave on a synology nas ? Did the stepped sine wave would crash my harddrive ?

[@PierreFromCanada]

@@zakypradikto3576 I have had an Amazon Basic 800av for 1.5 years supporting my Synology DS920. I have had no issues, despite having several electrical outages. My internet modem and wifi router are also connected to it. Works Great. All these things have there own transformers/power-brick.. so it's not a problem my

[@zakypradikto3576]

@@PierreFromCanada thanks sir, appreciate ur answer. :)

[@orbit1524]

Hi, a newb here. So is it fine to use UPS APC Bvx1200va (stepped sine wave) on my pc with Active PFC (corsair psu 600watt)?

[@rayc1557]

Much thanks for the info and letting people know about this. @0:34 to @0:40 and @7:17 Two things to note (speaking as a retired EE). Never be barefoot on a concrete floor when working on mains (wall-outlet) power. It's one thing to shock your fingers but, you can enter a whole new world (the after-world) when the current passes through the core of your body. To safely measure mains power, you can buy differential isolation probes for about $150. -Small price to pay to stay alive. There are many hack ways to read mains power with a 'scope -and those who really know what they're doing don't do it that way.

[@tadmarshall2739]

Wow, very cool to see what "stepped approximation of a sine wave" actually looks like! I'm glad that a "true sine wave" isn't just marketing nonsense. Fun video, thanks!

[@MrMikesMondoVideo]

The most useful part of this video is you are a shining example of what not to do, and the value of darwinism.

[@laptopdragon]

lol, @ 04:10 the shot of him, no shoes, barefoot on cement floor... presumably there's also a puddle somewhere...handling 120v and potentially 120amps...

[@MrMikesMondoVideo]

@@laptopdragon That and then he comments, "Don't do this at home unless you really know what you're doing," showing us he has no idea what he's doing.

[@diannedavid4276]

Just saw the KZbin clip as I need to purchase a UPS that will definitely need to be a pure sign wave. I appreciate the video you did a great job and thank you sir. May God bless you

[@AzaB2C]

Thanks for reviewing and testing Cyberpower CP1500PFCLCD at 8:32, appreciate your objective analysis of the power signal.

[@JoesGarageProductionsLLC]

No problem glad you found it helpful!

[@Constitution1789]

@@JoesGarageProductionsLLC Yes, thank you for testing the CP1500PFCLCD at 8:32.

[@hellterminator]

This isn't news. And neither is it an issue. APFC circuits only had problems with modified sine waves in the very beginning, but manufacturers very quickly modified them to be able to work with MSW. Any PSU made in the last 15(+) years will almost certainly work with a MSW UPS. Information to the contrary is either outdated or FUD perpetuated by UPS manufacturers to make you pay the premium for a pure sine wave model. That being said, unless you know exactly what you're doing, if you want to power anything except switch mode power supplies or pure resistive loads, you _should_ buy a true sine wave UPS. It's easy to have a transformer or a motor overheat and melt or some small device using a capacitive dropper blow up from the higher current the dropper will pass on MSW.

[@JoesGarageProductionsLLC]

Interesting thank you for the information I appreciate it. I certainly don't know everything always good to hear from people with no more than I do. Question for you. A lot of power supplies that I've disassembled use transformers to step down the voltage from line voltage to something more manageable by a buck regulator. Are you saying that a transformer and that type of situation would be okay with a modified sine wave UPS? If so can you elaborate why? Are those transformers designed differently in some way?

[@bradkaral1188]

Thumps up right away because Joe used precise language right from the start. Then the rest of the tests were very helpful. The Cyberpower with pure sine wave output - I do see a difference. The trough is a actually a bit more sinusoidal shape than on AC power.

[@Aranimda]

I've done a test a while ago. To set the energy output of a UPS as input of a APC Smart-UPS with power conditioning. When I use a pure sine-wave UPS as output, the Smart-UPS sees good power and happily takes it. When I use the cheap stepped-sine-wave UPS as output, my Smart-UPS will not accept the bad power and runs off battery instead. If you're on a low budget: Buy yourself a secondhand Pure sine-wave Smart-UPS and get a new set of batteries for it. Many companies throw out their perfectly fine UPS units when the battery dies. But it usually only needs a new battery.

[@WebbedPete]

Bad test. The UPS is designed to evaluate signal quality from the grid, and switch to battery if the grid is busted. Obviously, stepped-sin fails a grid quality test 🤠

[@RyC2004]

I purchased a new Cyberpower UPS with AVR, PFC and pure sine wave and I can confirm to you that the sound coming from my amplifier is so much nicer, crisper, cleaner and bass punchier than being plugged directly into the wall. Awesome video. Thank you for your time and effort

[@lordseph]

Ok, I was researching about this exact model from Cyberpower so I'm glad I came across this video. I'll be making my purchase thanks to you!

[@ZkReAr-fs5do]

This video was 2 years ago, do you think they still have tht issue bro?? I was thanking about buyin an APC or cyberpower wht do u think?

[@NETVOX11]

Hey Joe, Great video. The sine produced by the UPS is better shaped than the actual wall outlet. I always wanted to put those waveforms on a scope and compare them. Thank you for taking the time to do this. I am 100% paying extra for the sinewave UPS.

[@JoesGarageProductionsLLC]

Thanks I'm glad you thought it was helpful! One of these days when funds permit I'll invest in a scope that does a better job of measuring power harmonics.

[@theexile4694]

@@JoesGarageProductionsLLC I have similar battery back ups from cyberpower and the sinewaves coming from mine on battery are just fine. Don't buy used UPS power supplies, they are being sold for a reason, that reason being the customer broke them and wants to rip someone else off by selling it off to them.

[@louistournas120]

@@theexile4694 I hope that is true since I bought a new CyberPower LX1500GU3 and it does not say true sine wave on the box.

[@louistournas120]

Looks like the one I got produces a kind of square wave, that they call simulated sine wave. But it looks nothing like a sine wave.

[@nyumokongkang4483]

​@@louistournas120are u facing any issue?

[@woodlandsdel]

Awesome video! Request for a follow-up video: take the pure sine cp1500pfclcd and add more batteries to see if the runtime will increase. Some UPSs will shutdown at the same runtime to prevent overheating, even with minimal loading.

[@clifforddicarlo9178]

It would be interesting to use a spectrum analyzer to see all the various harmonics these APCs generate.

[@teddym2808]

I paid 900 AUD for a cyberpower PR1500ELCD 5 years back which is pure sine wave and has 8 outlets (4 battery and surge, 4 surge), and I was so happy with it - I recently put a brand new battery in it, was as simple as sliding out a drawer and swapping it. BUT, a few weeks back, the LCD screen died. It's become corrupted basically, so it only displays about a third of the info, sporadically around the screen. So I thought, no big deal, I will just turn it on and off as needed, it will still work. And that was initially just fine. But at some point I must have pressed something accidentally when turning it off and changed a setting and couldn't see what I was doing (see below for what happened). My point is, this is what can happen to an old unit out of warranty, and I can't find just the (detachable) lcd panel anywhere for sale.. so it makes me wonder if it's worth changing batteries or buying new units that are cheaper and just changing them every few years. You can get proper sine wave outputs at half the price. And the other day, I turned the unit off as normal (still plugged into wall as recommended, but when I turn my PS5 and Series X off and don't plan to use them for a while, I turn off the UPS so they can shut down properly). then a little while later, maybe 2 hours later, I was hearing this beeping. I thought it was the smoke alarm low battery warning at first, but after is started annoying me I went to check it out. What I saw was my monitor and PS5 turning on, the UPS beeping, then turning off. Wow. It must have done it 2 dozen times before I unplugged them. Ouch. And then when I tried to turn the UPS on manually, it would shut off. So what it was doing over and over again was trying to turn itself on and shutting off, and lucky I was around at the time to deal with it. The thing is, I couldn't go through any options to see if I maybe put it into green power or turned some function on I shouldn't have by accident, as the LCD is corrupted. And I can't even guide it to do a factory reset. It gets worse.. The cyberpower free software (and it was updated in October 2023 mind you), is not high DPI aware. It is the size of a matchbox on a 4K panel, and trying to override scaling settings does nothing. further more, the software forces multiple process at every system start and has no way to even exit it when running. So pathetic. I forced my panel to 1080P so I could see the software, and even at 1080P it only used a third of the screen, so I am guessing the software GUI is hard locked to a size of 480P with no way of changing it whatsoever - in 2023 and now 2024. How pathetic is that? And after all that, there were no options to do anything I needed like a reset. It did to a quick self test and said it was fine. Who knows. The UPS seems to be working ok again now. So maybe after I unplugged everything and have not used it for a while, it has reset itself? Who knows. What the cyberpower model I have DOES do that is unique though, for a 1500va model, is it has 1350 watts capacity, whereas most 1500VA units are 900 watts or 1000 at most. This means it will easily be able to handle an 1000 watt AFC PSU on a 4090/13900k (for example) system, and if there's a spike in power on switching over to the UPS, where as a 900w unit might be overloaded and just cut out anyway. I refuse to spend 900 dollars again since I use a laptop now and only the consoles are on the UPS, but it was nice to have around when I used to run a Mac Pro, I always felt safe with the cyberpower. Anyway, I found the powershield defender 1500va/900W true sinewave UPS for 299 AUD.. RRP is 820, most stores have it for 600 to 700, but one of the big national chains is doing a mega special, so for that price, I jumped on it. I'll keep my cyberpower as backup and see if they themselves will sell me a screen or at least be able to hazard a guess as to what it was doing on that day of weird behaviour, but, it has put me off spending that much money. And the battery replacement which was 250 bucks shipped, could have gone towards a new UPS.

[@dianna318d7]

I was thinking about the cyber power UPS and this just really help me out thank you very much

[@JoesGarageProductionsLLC]

No problem. The UPS is still running great!

[@sh839c]

Excellent video. Can you tell me how you have the scope probe connected to the ac line for testing?. Black and white leads only correct?. Thanks.

[@Richard25000]

Utility power is worse because of other loads on the local network such as switching power supplies, inductive loads etc.

[@lil_per_vert]

can i use a Simulated Sine Wave UPS with my Computer having an Active PFC power supply ? will it damage my PC ?

[@shadow.banned]

Can you explain the dangers of utilizing a UPS with an unstable wave form like this?

[@en0n126]

Other people here have explained that there is no real danger to using these UPSs for their intended application of home/consumer electronics like PCs. The wave is rectified & converted to DC by the PC power supply anyway. This video is not an accurate representation of anything but an untrained layman simply saying "this wave doesn't look like that one", and then plugging a big old fan into it that the UPS maker would tell you shouldn't be run on their UPS. It's an unscientific & uninformed video.

[@gblargg]

The euphemism they use is "modified sine wave". It is closer to a sine wave than a square wave, and very simple to produce. For things it works on, it works. for things it doesn't work on, there are pure sine inverters.

[@walter.bellini]

Thank you for the nice informative Curious if the two older units had their components exhausted and can no longer properly output clean SINE Wave power The only way to know would have been to test an APC Model that is brand new out of the box to really compare to see if it outputs nicely. Just like regular surge protector have a useful life, and then they don't protect against anything and needs to be thrown away.

[@mxslick50]

Nope, that crap wave is present regardless of the age of the UPS. Any "modified" or "step" wave models will produce the same results. And all new APCs (and some of the other brands) are total garbage regardless. APC was best IF you got a unit before the Schneider buyout.

[@SorinMiron]

Great video! I bought the pure sine wave cyberpower and was curious how the generated sine wave looks like. Now I know.

[@TEKMOTION]

Well Done !! Yea , Freq is important. My Cyber UPS has "50Hz/60Hz +/- 1% Auto Sensing" . . . . . While it will only take 110VAC . . . . . Hmmmm

[@LeDoctoer]

What do you need a sine wave for? The computer's power supply is going to convert the input to DC anyway.

[@m1geo]

I am an electrical engineer. This is exactly what I would expect. You should (a) put a resistive load on the UPS and (b) wear shoes! If you want to fix it, add some ferrite (31 mix) around the output wires. The inductive input of the fan in no way resembles a computer. Switch mode power supplies only draw current at the very peak of the cycle, since the diodes inside will be forward biased and the line voltage will be higher than the storage caps. Also, why do you keep pressing the auto set button on the scope?

[@m1geo]

11:50 the flat topping is due to switching power supplies that all load the very peaks of the cycle.

[@joemarz2264]

Great video! I also have a digital scope and am planning to watch the output waveform of my CyberPower 2.2 KVA UPS but with an 800 Watts load, just to see if the waveform performs the same under those conditions.

[@adriftatlas]

I don't know much, but I do know why differential probes exist.

[@skan8]

When my fridge turns on or off it sometimes crashes my PC , will this solve my problem?

[@bobgreene2892]

On a typical UPS, does stepped approximation have potential to damage any electrical appliance?

[@ObsessionoftheMonth]

I worked in IT for 25 years, and we never had a computer that would not run on a cheap UPS.

[@kongsunlyheng4186]

Probably because all computer use DC current?

[@ObsessionoftheMonth]

@@kongsunlyheng4186 UPS's put out AC. either pure sine wave, or some kind of stepped sine wave.

[@kongsunlyheng4186]

@@ObsessionoftheMonth ye, and power supply for computer would just convert it to DC

[@nrikhy2793]

One can have a sinewave ups, as a line interactive model or as an online model.

[@Ian-pe9rj]

Put the oscilloscope in single shot capture mode to capture the transition from grid power to inverter power. This will allow you to see if the voltage sags during the transition or if it is relatively seamless.

[@JoesGarageProductionsLLC]

Thanks - I'll give that a try next time I use it!

[@raytry69]

@@JoesGarageProductionsLLC And also in AC coupling mode.

[@lil_per_vert]

can i use a Simulated Sine Wave UPS with my Computer having an Active PFC power supply ? will it damage my PC ?

[@WebbedPete]

​ @JoesGarageProductionsLLC I am an EE as well. You asked why transformers can handle "bad" sin wave power, Here is one way to think about it: normal electronic components don't see "sine" or "square". They see voltage (like pressure), current (like volume), and frequencies. Even a pure square wave is NOT just 0 volts / 110 volts like we see. It is (really) a set of pure sin waves at a bunch of (harmonic) frequencies, that add up to the square! Search KZbin for this to see it: Fourier Series square wave animation * Filter out the high frequencies of those "bad" stepped-sin UPS... you get clean pure sin wave power. * As others note, it's non-electronic power to be wary around.

[@FirstLastOne]

"I'm not an electrical engineer but I like to think I know a thing or two" and pay no attention to the fact that I am working with items that I said might kill you if you don't know what you are doing but being barefoot on a concrete floor is okay as long as you know what you are doing. ;)

[@dg-hughes]

3:14 I'm reading up on UPS brands to replace my old UPS (CyberPower LX1500GU ?) or maybe just get a battery maybe if still available, But I also am building a new system and thought I'd also go more efficient for the power supply maybe even Titanium grade. It's good to know pure sine wave is a good thing to get for a PFC PSU. I was going to go Pure Sinewave anyway and also maybe even online instead of line interactive (LI). edit: and UPS manufacturer's don't seem to change their designs much for a decade so if CyberPower was bad it probably still is in 2023.

[@MajorTendonitis]

“ I’m not an electrical engineer,but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night “ Good enough for me Thanks for the video. I’m was going to buy that same unit, and after seeing the sine wave , I’m sold . It’s unfortunate the rack mount version is nearly double :(

[@exgenica]

00:15 both advertise "step-approximation" 02:55 and 05:30 From what I can see, neither UPS is providing what any engineer would call a "step-approximation" waveform by any definition, even a very "relaxed" definition. A "step-approximation" waveform typically has multiple readily visible "steps" that look like house stairs going up and down as the waveform proceeds from 0 to peak positive voltage, and from 0 to peak negative voltage. What those two UPS units are displaying on your setup are very poor approximations of a square wave. I've seen some "step-approximation" UPS outputs provide aa few as one step, usually ~midway between 0 and the peak positive or negative voltage, but still meeting the strict definition of "step-approximation", but the better ones, although still just "step-approximation", provide multiple "steps" between 0 and the peak voltages. edit to add: personally, I've seen much better "step-approximation" (aka "stepped-approximation") waveforms from all the APC UPS units I've used over the years, than the ones displayed by the two units at which you are looking. Regardless, I switched to CyberPower "pure sinewave" UPS units many years ago, and I believe it was a good move. Note: I have no personal or financial interest in eitther APC or CyberPower.

[@TheLocalBandwagonEffect]

Thanks for the video. I bought an used apc and did not have a manual. Had a problem and now I know the battery replacement I needed. So thanks!

[@nadtz]

Thanks for this. I've worked in datacenters and understand how important a good UPS is but I'm not an electrical engineer to understand all the technical aspects. This video combined with a couple days on and off research made me understand just how bad the 'cheaper' non sine wave UPS's are for my desktop. Now I just have to hope Cyberpower stopped using the glue that transforms into conductive powder as it ages. It's a shame that Eaton doesn't make anything less than $400ish in this range or I'd just get one of theirs.

[@edfx]

I wonder how heating system UPS sine looks like, especially designed for circulation pumps

[@xxcrazy_critr6661]

Old Video, tons of comments, but there is a White Paper, Search for Different Types of UPS White Paper and it will go through all of the different types and specifications. The Pure Sine Version you have does have an AVR, for the voltage, but does not condition frequency, only keeps voltage regulated. If it senses Frequency Changes beyond a certain threshold from 60hz +- it will switch to battery. How does the AVR work, I think in these they switch between different transformer taps as the voltage dips and spikes from the line power, but not 100% sure if they still work that way or if it's been turned into a mosfet/chinese cheap ass circuit to handle it which may be better, or not, Transformers are hella expensive these days so would not be surprised if no Transformer.

[@BigEightiesNewWave]

I noticed the true sine-wave ones Cyber Power are like $200. I will get a true sine-wave model.

[@khx73]

Impressive output from the sine wave Cyberpower unit. I'd like to see if it holds up that clean waveform under load.

[@JoesGarageProductionsLLC]

I've had a couple requests for that now. I don't have a load bank that I can use to control the load, but I can show the waveform with it hooked up to a typical computer workload if you guys would find that interesting

[@khx73]

@@JoesGarageProductionsLLC Yeah it would be interesting to see if it holds up under a typical load... no need for anything complicated.. just a typical load. I would show it's output waveform unloaded., then loaded to see if there is any deformation.

[@RyzawaCh]

@@JoesGarageProductionsLLC That would be nice, not many people making videos about this sort of stuff anyways.

[@impy1980]

I have had the same CyberPower CP1500EPFCLCD UPS but the UK version for 4 or 5 years now after I was getting regular brown outs and I video edit from home, so it's essential I don't lose work, turns out the local substation was dying, 8 months passed then there was a huge electrical explosion, haven't had any brownouts since they repaired/upgraded the substation but I'm glad I have the UPS as there's always the odd power cut each year. Anyway I came across this video during researching the APC Back-UPS Prto 1500VA, was randomly searching an insolvency office supplies auction site and saw one doing dirt cheap, like under 10 dollars with 15 hours remaining before bidding closes, but after seeing your comparisons, I'm gonna forget about it, but I'm glad to see that I was correct in being the CP1500EPFCLCD in the first place, I don't really need a second UPS but my modem/router is in another room to the NAS and PC and I wouldn't mind getting that and a CCTV camera that side of the house on backup at some point. Thanks for an informative video, even if it's been 3 years.

[@STBRetired1]

Apparently a UPS/Battery Backup is NOT what I need. I want to run some electronics off of a small gas generator. But as we all know, the sine wave output from a gas generator is pretty horrible. So, what do I need to clean up the generator power? Apparently the UPS only conditions the line voltage when it is running off the battery and even then it does a poor job of it. Do I need a voltage regulator or does that only maintain a specific 120 VAC? How about some kind of Power Line Conditioner like a Tripp Lite LS606M? That also seems to be a voltage regulator. Hopefully it cleans up the A/C, too. Would a Sine Wave Inverter be my best bet?

[@shenqiangshou]

Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but I got a brand new Cyberpower CP1500AVRLCD3 because of this video. After getting it, I decided to use my mini DSO212 to look at the waveform. Of course it clips top and bottom since I don't have a 10x probe, but the waveform in UPS mode looks awful, like what you showed for the other UPSes, probably even worse! In comparison, I looked at my Bluetti and also a tiny OmniCharge's AC output, and both were pretty good.

[@shenqiangshou]

ohhh, now I realize my mistake. Your model is has PFC in the model number, where as mine is just the AVR. I see they do sell the PFC version, which is slightly more expensive, but presumably this is the reason the one I have has such awful AC waveform in battery powered mode.

[@Aranimda]

10:35 You can see the sine-wave actually improve when the UPS switches to battery.

[@raytry69]

Because there are a lot of switching power supply devices on the grid what charges their's buffer capacitors at the peak of the sine wave.

[@ccoates1064]

The problem is there is no sign wave because there is no load. And there is not the Iron is the transformer to make the sign wave you are loking for. Interesting video and funny explanation

[@anullhandle]

A useful test might be an old clunker pc with an old atx and then new pf corrected power supply. Both should have a power good output test before powering the computer. It would be interesting to look at the ac output right after the line filter inside the power supply as well as the 3.3 5 12 rails. The atx internal line (common mode chokes and caps) filter will strip out some harmonics (deviation from sine) be interesting to see how much. Just be careful with were your scope bnc shields are referenced.

[@creatorvoss]

I think those are called modified sine wave, more like a mixture of square wave and sine wave. Those would be the line interactive type ups. Pure sine wave ups are usually double the cost of modified sine wave ups is what i know.

[@JoesGarageProductionsLLC]

Modified sine wave UPSes typically produce that square wave looking waveform. Pure sine wave typically produce a pure sine wave looking waveform.

[@Whoadayson]

Good video. Its good to see the visual of those crappy modified sine wave units... I was going to try this myself but I get a bit nervous messing with the O-scope on live circuits, but one day, after some hard studying!

[@CotyRiddle]

its just a modified sine wave "approximation" they are fine for general backup use. true some psu's are grumpy when it comes to this but most will work fine. at worse your device will pull more power and generate more heat. DO NOT RUN induction motors off these things.

[@truthsRsung]

Why chance it in either regard? Spend the Xtra, don't chance your power supply not getting along with the stepped wave and never worry about who plugs what into the back of it.

[@ThinKkBIGG]

@@truthsRsung Personally, I would not connect any motor to any version of UPS (fan, vacuum cleaner, drill, etc). Buying a new one, I would buy the ''Pure sinewave'' version the same but when you already own an old quality Simulated Sine Wave UPS, I wouldn't throw it away... On multiple devices, it can bring more good how bad...

[@anonhollmuller4032]

there are much "modified sine" UPS out there. looks like mislabled ;) my ups spits out sine if consume is higher than 25w and less than 1750w . it was about 180 on xxazon

[@DJMaverickk]

Unplugging the power cord from a ups is not a good practice to simulate a power outage because you disconnect the earth connection as well. This can damage equipment connected to the ups battery backup outlet requiring an earth connection. Switching off the circuit breaker is the safer way to simulate a power outage for a ups.

[@JoesGarageProductionsLLC]

Thanks for the feedback

[@news_internationale2035]

How would it be different than something operating on an isolaton transformer?

[@DJMaverickk]

@@news_internationale2035 You do not not plug in equipment requiring an earth connection pin to an isolation transformer because the isolation transformer floats the earth connection. Isolation transformers are for 2 pin equipment ( e.g electric dry shaver) and other uses.

[@nickgrnr]

Excellent vid. Can you tell me what I could use to clean up voltage AND frequency variations when on generator power?

[@JoesGarageProductionsLLC]

Thank you! You could use a double conversion uninterruptible power supply. Those will essentially take whatever power is coming in rectify it and then convert it back to AC. They are pretty pricey though so prepare yourself. A cheaper option might be to just buy a generator that already outputs clean power. I've done a few informal video reviews of various generators, including a fairly low cost Wen inverter generator that outputs very clean power at a very reasonable price. I would love to get my hands on one of those generators from Northern tools that outputs like 10,000 Watts with a very low THD. A bit out of my price range right now though :-)

[@brianschwarm8267]

I bought another APC one that says it does a sine wave, I hope they are true to their word

[@JoesGarageProductionsLLC]

If it says true sine wave I'm sure you'll be fine

[@cvalenx]

I just got a bunch of free APC UPS’s almost like that one… should I still use them?

[@yesmanhk]

awesome ! thanks for the review. love to see the result and I'm so disappointed with APC, I have a simple AVR one and it always has white noise and I can heard it at mid-night in my room without power outage

[@Caprica-Approaches]

Great info', thank you. Could the zoomed-in, wonky 'Line' power, flattened curve peak be, instead of raw line signal, the result of AVR? I didn't notice if the scope was ever plugged directly into the wall socket (while zoomed in). Thanks again, -R (AJ-[California]-IR)

[@JoesGarageProductionsLLC]

Thanks for the feedback! It's unlikely that what you see is caused by the AVR. I don't believe this model is a line interactive UPS. Line interactive UPSs will take utility power, convert it to DC and then pure sine wave AC. I don't believe this model does that.

[@ThinKkBIGG]

@@JoesGarageProductionsLLC The CP1500PFCLCD is indeed a version which has the AVR and which is ''Line Interactive'' and pure sinewave. It only intervenes within a certain range of current variation in AVR mode and when it exceeds this range goes directly to battery. This is different from the Online versions (double coverage) which are permanently active by converting the AC to DC and back to AC again. On the other hand, they are energy-intensive and noisy. You can't work calmly next to a double conversion since it has to cool down constantly. They are well suited for server rooms with poor power quality. The ''Line Interactive'' versions intervene only when there is a variation in the quality of the electrical network and are more suitable for an office environment which must remain calm. Each has its own advantages...

[@jasonkhanlar9520]

Hety Joe's Garage! I watched this video, and I'd like to ask for your recommendation for a UPS/battery backup to use for my new computer build with 850 watt power supply unit. I want to get one that has a sine wave and lasts long term without bait-and-switch planned obsolescence failing, if there are any still made anymore.

[@ZPDSurvival]

I am the Central Scrutinizer. Great Video.

[@FirstLastOne]

Um, there are rack mount versions of APC and Cyberpower that produce that same stepped waveform as the APC unit you first tested. Oddly, prices for pure sinewave rack mount UPS are not that much more.

[@drvish]

Looks like the US power Grid is not quite giving you a sinewave.

[@atobpe]

From ChatGPT: In most cases, having a UPS (Uninterruptible Power Supply) that approximates a sine wave should not be a major cause for concern. However, there are a few factors to consider: Compatibility: Some sensitive electronic devices, such as certain types of servers, high-end audio/video equipment, and medical equipment, might have specific requirements for a pure sine wave output. These devices could potentially experience issues or reduced performance when connected to a UPS that provides an approximate sine wave. Performance: Devices that are designed to handle a sine wave input may perform more efficiently and produce less heat when connected to a UPS with a pure sine wave output. An approximate sine wave could potentially result in reduced efficiency or performance, especially during high-power demand situations. Battery Life: Devices connected to a UPS that generates an approximate sine wave may not have the same level of battery life compared to a pure sine wave UPS. This could impact the duration for which your equipment can remain powered during a blackout. Noise or Interference: Some devices might be more sensitive to the quality of the power they receive. An approximate sine wave could potentially introduce electrical noise or interference, affecting the performance of connected equipment. Cost: Pure sine wave UPS units are generally more expensive than those that provide an approximate sine wave. If your devices don't have strict requirements for a pure sine wave, you might opt for a more cost-effective solution. Before deciding whether to be concerned about your UPS approximating a sine wave, consider the types of devices you're connecting to it and their specific requirements. If you're using standard consumer electronics like computers, monitors, and home networking equipment, an approximate sine wave UPS is usually sufficient. However, if you have sensitive or high-performance equipment, it might be worth investing in a pure sine wave UPS to ensure optimal performance and protection. Always check the manufacturer's recommendations and specifications for your devices, and if in doubt, consult with a professional or the manufacturer for guidance on choosing the right UPS for your needs.

[@JBGecko13yt]

the last one got better on battery vs pass through

[@sprezzaturarrd]

is your scope connected between hot and neutral or hot and ground?

[@allantamm2185]

maybe i missed looking but i didn't see the loaded sine measurement..

[@JoesGarageProductionsLLC]

Correct I did not load them up in this video

[@stevensgarage6451]

@@JoesGarageProductionsLLC Should we assume the waveform looks the same unloaded?

[@JoesGarageProductionsLLC]

@@stevensgarage6451 that is correct. If I recall all of the waveforms that I recorded in this video were unloaded

[@danieljewell1]

Way cool, is it possible to record the waveform during the switch from Line/Battery? (I'm thinking that it would be pretty ugly on the first two but might not even be visible on the new one. High-end UPS systems are usually "online" - e.g. everything gets rectified to DC and then re-inverted back to pure sine AC... that way, if the power goes out there is absolutely zero disruption in the power delivered to electronics ... My guess would be that the first two might have a 1/2 to 1 cycle (16.67ms @ 60Hz) disruption...)

[@JoesGarageProductionsLLC]

I'll give that a shot the next time I have that UPS disconnected. You're referring to "double conversion" UPSes... they are pretty rare and are usually very high-end/expensive.

[@ThinKkBIGG]

@@JoesGarageProductionsLLC And noisy...

[@aatirehrarsiddiqui8894]

Is there a way for you to tell what's the THD?

[@JoesGarageProductionsLLC]

Since this video was recorded, I've purchased a clamp meter that calculates THD (amzn.to/3G4qzOX. I don't have these modified sine wave UPSs any more, but I'll be using this new meter on any future power-related videos :)

[@Desert-edDave]

Fortunately your average ATX SMPS does not care much about modified sine waves in the short-term, which these UPS devices are designed purely to provide time for proper shutdown in the event of power loss. APC is garbage today though - look at the laughable aluminum-copper soldered joints on many of their newer transformers.

[@austinpowell1883]

Got a cps1500pfc unplugged it with nothing on it and its runtime started dropping super fast plugged it back in and she almost exploded big red flash and a ton of smoke

[@michaelchambers7691]

There are sine wave chips.

[@AlexvrbX]

I don't power fans with my UPS. I power a PC with a good PSU that handles approximated sine waves from my 1500G well enough. If and when this sucker dies I'll get a true sine wave unit... but it's not as apocalyptic as some people make it out to be. For that matter, I'd rather have my PSU strain under the stepped waveform than chew on unstable power. When they're tinkering with power during and after storms knock something out, I'll often hear the UPS fan kick on and off as it regulates the current. Back in the day this would make incandescent bulbs do fun things, now the LED bulbs we have just blink on and off, very occasionally keeling over (depending how good their circuitry is).

[@JoesGarageProductionsLLC]

The fan was just used for demonstration purposes.

[@AlexvrbX]

@@JoesGarageProductionsLLC it's one of the worst possible cases and well outside the intended use. Like using a Corolla tow an F-350 SD to demonstrate how awful Corollas are at towing. That was my point.

[@JoesGarageProductionsLLC]

@@AlexvrbX understood. It's just all I had available in the shop to plug in at the time. Totally agree. They're not designed to power fans.

[@ThinKkBIGG]

The biggest problem of the APC model tested are the generated harmonics which are poorly managed and filtered... This would have been interesting to test on all models.

[@AlexvrbX]

@@ThinKkBIGG Do you think it'd improve slightly if you were powering a different, manufacturer-recommended load instead of either no load or an inductive load?

[@simon359]

I’ve use these UPS units for years and I’ve never had any problems with my computers? So I’m wondering is it really that big of an issue, when most of the time these are not being utilized but are just for backup!

[@lil_per_vert]

can i use a Simulated Sine Wave UPS with my Computer having an Active PFC power supply ? will it damage my PC ?

[@en0n126]

No. There's no issue. The person who made the video told you they're not an electrical engineer, and you should believe them and not pay attention to what they say. Others in the comments who are more knowledgeable than "this wave doesn't look like that one" have made it clear that these are fine for their intended purpose.

[@-GameHacKeR-]

i'm curious would a CS947 Tacima 6 Way Mains Conditioner with Surge Protection help correct the nasty sine waves of these since it's supposed to clean up the power? i'm guessing it should

[@OutDoorFun3]

Great video. I purchase the same CyberPower pure sine wave before seeing your video last week. Three days later, we had a 5-hour power outage due to high winds. I started up the "Honda" generator (non inverter type) and guess what... the UPS wouldn't charge, and my computer ran out of power and died. Searching for answers now. Looks like it the frequency that stops it from charging, from what I can figure. It must be within 3 HZ of 60 for it to charge, I'm thinking. It is looking at that out of speck frequency as a problem. Looking in the manual of the Local business software from CyberPower that runs on your PC for auto shut down, it talks about relaxing the frequency specification but I can't find where you set it, I'm thinking this unit doesn't have that option. This is what the manul says "When the input frequency is unstable such as with power supplied by generators, set the UPS to fixed mode to supply power with a stable frequency."

[@JoesGarageProductionsLLC]

Very interesting. The manual for mine is long gone but I wonder if that's something you can adjust with their software that you install on the PC? Another option is to adjust the frequency of the generator. On non-inverted type generators that is normally adjusted by adjusting the engine speed. You can do that pretty easily by sticking a multimeter or kilowatt meter into one of the power outlets with the generator running and put it in frequency mode. Most small generator engines have been adjusting screw nearly Governor linkage that allows you to adjust engine speed. You would shoot for a no load frequency of about 61 to 62 hz

[@OutDoorFun3]

@@JoesGarageProductionsLLC Thanks for the response, the online manual for the software that runs on the PC says you can configure it for generator mode, but I can't find that option in the software. I will try adjusting the governor for 60-62Hz, I do have a meter that shows Hz.

[@dannydeutsch279]

@@OutDoorFun3 Any luck?

[@OutDoorFun3]

@@dannydeutsch279 No, I tried contacting CyberPower through their website, I filled out all the questions about the model and then wrote a lengthy question. Then after all that, I hit "Send" and nothing would happen. I got to try again. We haven't had a power outage since, so I haven't tried to adjust the governor on the generator.

[@glamdring0007]

Good video. I have run multiple Cyberpower brand UPS over the years and all have performed as expected. I would have liked to see how the wave form on the CP unit reacted under load when unplugged.

[@gblargg]

Is your scope probe compensation adjustment set right?

[@Fusions-xl3sh]

Tripp Lite BC600SINE 600VA 375W UPS Battery Back Up Pure Sine Wave PFC Tower can you test that

[@dianna318d7]

Hi Joe, so I bought the cyber power that you liked but I have a question. If you have slight power dips occasionally you don’t like the light dims just a little bit does your electronics have to be plugged in to the battery side in order do you have that consistent even power? And anything plugged on the non-battery side will not have that consistent even power. It’s my understanding correct. Thank you very much for your help and I love the video

[@JoesGarageProductionsLLC]

Yes, I believe you are correct but I don't recall testing that at the time. Typically the non-battery side only provides surge suppression.

[@ThinKkBIGG]

@@JoesGarageProductionsLLC It would have been interesting if on the side without battery only minimally the AVR mode also works...

[@Eriskyn]

I was going to buy the cyberpower (from costco) shown at 9:17 but I canceled my order after learning there is a yellow glue inside that can catch fire. The amazon link leads to the revision with the usb c slot that no longer has the yellow glue. I hope the unit in the video is no longer being used for this reason.

[@JoesGarageProductionsLLC]

This unit is still in use... can you share where you found that info? I'd love to look into it more... thanks!

[@JoesGarageProductionsLLC]

Wow, nevermind - found it myself. Thanks for making me aware of this! I think I may decommission this unit now and maybe do a video taking it apart :)

[@JoesGarageProductionsLLC]

Did some more research and as best I can tell, it seems like there are two reports of this issue that seem to have been syndicated to nearly every news site on the internet. One of those reports is suspicious in that a user just happened to be filming the powering up of the UPS when it released the magic smoke. Does anyone factually know if this is more than just an isolated problem?

[@hwesson75]

@@JoesGarageProductionsLLC I'm here because I'd just noticed a couple hours ago that the battery had finally failed on my CP1500PFCLCD after 5 years (pretty decent!) so I've been looking at things on here about it... Just opened it up to check this... There's one spot around a sensor wire where the glue is still kind of yellow, but everywhere else that there's glue on top of bare electrical, it's gone completely brown with a few darker spots on top of some bare electronics... So personally, I can say this seems to be a definite issue, at least for me. Looks like I'm going to be working at cleaning off glue, because otherwise this has been quite a good little unit.

[@hwesson75]

Big problem area appears to be where the glue is across one end of the glass fuse next to a tall cap, and runs around the side of the cap to land on a couple resistors... Same point one video said they had their board get burnt completely through, the glue is a very dark brown on mine. So, yeah, I'm going to need to pull the board out and desolder a few things to clean all that off properly because it's gone hard as a rock. Yet another thing for future me to have to deal with. XD

[@Damitsall]

Thanks for the info.

[@FortyTwoAnswerToEverything]

I have an oldie cyberpower 1285AVR that says it has "simulated sine wave". I wonder if that's the same thing you have?

[@JoesGarageProductionsLLC]

Simulated sine wave is likely a fancy way of stepped approximation to sine wave :)

[@news_internationale2035]

So how do linear power supplies do VS switching power supplies when connected to these non-true sine wave UPS?

[@daytonpyro]

mine powers off. and when i press power it beeps and does nothing. any ideas?

[@gred808]

Thanks for the extremely informative and useful review! How is that unit holding up? Still happy with it?

[@JoesGarageProductionsLLC]

Yep still working like a champ! kicked in for about 15 minutes just the other day during a power outage when I was on the phone with a customer. It paid for itself in that one conversation LOL

[@TheChillDeadpool]

QUESTION what about for just purely surge protection? like for a PC

[@ThinKkBIGG]

A UPS is often mistakenly referred to as surge protection. You should put dedicated surge protection first followed by a UPS for the other benefits it brings.

[@walkertongdee]

It's not sold as a pure sine wave unit and you don't need one, modified sine works well enough. It's not meant to be a power supply, only to give you enough time to save your work and shut down safely duh...

[@BattlecatRed]

YIKES! I have only used the APC variant...looking at the CyberPower unit is comparatively pricey, but perhaps worth it...

[@JoesGarageProductionsLLC]

I believe APC makes true sine wave UPSs as well. I believe the CyperPower was cheaper when I was in the market.

[@JoesGarageProductionsLLC]

Yep I think you're correct I think a lot of manufacturers are starting to offer those options now.

[@BattlecatRed]

@@JoesGarageProductionsLLC Good to know, thanks!

[@josuevalar6465]

I'm so mad I've literally been looking for an hour and there are none with pfc in my country

[@creatorvoss]

Can you please tell me if the apple m1 mac mini uses a active pfc or passive pfc. I know it uses a pfc but don't know which one. If you happen to know something about it. Thanks

[@setho235]

Hey I breed snakes and I’m having a big issue with back up power to my snake room when I’m on generator power, the thermostats running my racks and incubator literally start arcing. Which I believe is due to the dirty power combined with the thermostats being a proportional/variable heat set up. I’m looking for a product that I can clean up the power through. Any help would be appreciated.

[@truthsRsung]

You need an electrician, in person. Not uTube.

[@immrnoidall]

I have an older 24v 550watt UPS for years with 100 ah deep cells . When trying to run my battery down to do capacity test on my new china lifepo4 100 ah battery I only got 75 ah AND THAT WAS AT 1 AMP DRAW, discharged on my iMAX quattro B6. It took days. So I put it on the old faithful UPS but tried a small hot plate for the first time and it was pulling 35AMPS. I have hade this fan-less UPS hot as hell for a long time in the past, and it worked fine. With the hot plate it was just getting warm and the hot plat was red hot and almost had a pan of water boiling after about twenty minutes and the UPS was still just warm , So I went to take a piss . BAD IDEA. REALLY BAD. It must have started letting out the magic smoke as soon as I toke my eyes off it . couple minutes in the bathroom and ,PEEP PEEP PEEP PEEP. FIRE ALARM. Holy crap. living room and hall were filled with smoke. This thing had always just shut down if the load was to high. For some reason this time it did that transformer melt and short thing , before the fuses went. meaning it never shut down. It melted down . THAT must have been a sight to see.The autopsy showed there were 3 black holes it the transformer and burn marks inside. If this was one of those plastic shell ones like the little one here, OMG . I'm now waiting for an APC Pro 1000 S BR1000MS Sine Wave UPS 600watt with no batteries or box or anything for $80 shipped. I will not be going over spec this time .

[@JoesGarageProductionsLLC]

Wow oh my goodness that's quite a story! You're lucky it didn't bring your house down and that you went to the bathroom to go number one rather than number two :-)

[@TbirdThunderHD]

0:35 "Don't do this at home ..." ... He says with a Blue Moon beer sitting on the work bench! LOL

[@JoesGarageProductionsLLC]

Getting ready to win a Darwin award lol

[@stephenpowstinger733]

Interesting “acid test”. So the product info should say “true sine wave” or something? It might be fun to have an oscilloscope but not easy or prob not worth it for me. Good old cheap fans are easy tests. Thanks.

[@JoesGarageProductionsLLC]

You would think that when they say stepped approximation to a sine wave in the advertising there would be a few more steps than you see on the oscilloscope :-) thankfully the true sine wave UPSs are getting cheaper and more common

[@stephenpowstinger733]

I was just yesterday examining a $100 backup with no display at Batteries Plus but the sine wave feature was ignored, probably none. The clerk did not know what sine wave meant. Digressing, I went to examine a $200 unit on the bottom shelf but the clerk touched the shelf above sending boxes of products crashing down on my head when the loosely attached shelf fell. No apology from the inept clerk either - or the arrogant manager.

[@lil_per_vert]

can i use a Simulated Sine Wave UPS with my Computer having an Active PFC power supply ? will it damage my PC ?

[@aaronsullivan1628]

I have two APC UPS, a 650 and 1500, and I will advise you away from it. My Back-ups 1500 just died. It is just barely two years old and the battery(s) is in good condition. I contacted APC and they tell me it's out of warranty. Something is malfunctioning and causing it to show dead. I have junked out many APC UPS at Ford where I have worked for almost 30 yrs as an electrician. On the day my 1500 failed, I had junked out two APC UPS at the plant. To say I am disappointed in the company is an understatement. I will take the unit apart, because that's what I do, but I have already ordered a UPS from a CYBER power, and yes I have one of their UPS also. This will be my second. Oh yes, I also work with a great deal of Schneider's other equipment and I won't rave about it.

[@timmay2k]

Why i bought the cyber power ups. Thought about the other one but my brain told me to get that one 😎