US M-1956 LCE vs 1958 Pattern WE Part I - Kit Comparison

A comparison between the US M-1956 Load Carrying Equipment and British 1958 Pattern Web Equipment.
/ riflemanmoore
/ riflemanmoore

[@RiflemanMoore]

The footage at 02:53 comes from an episode of the US Army's television program 'The Big Picture'. I thought it was particularly appropriate to use as it shows British infantry training with US armoured personnel carriers in the very early 1960s and I have included a card in the video at this point linking through to the full episode.

[@pierevojzola9737]

The large water bottles with metal mugs were the much saught after equipment, in hot climates we even bought an extra bottle so as to have 3 bottles to last us through 24 hours,. Each water bottle carrier had an inner pocket in which we carried a metal container with a little bottle of water purifier and a bottle of “make the Water palatable tablets”. This was essential as sometimes in the mountains we had to resort to filling our empty water bottles from mountain streams and puddles. The spade was a very essential bit of kit for digging and for close fighting and it was kept sharp. The big problem was when bailing out of helicopters from a sitting position it tended to catch on the edge of the door floor so that you ended up face down in the dirt with all your kit on your back knocking the air out of your lungs. Oh the fun of getting the first taste of the DZ!

[@jmsneorrcom]

I was in the us army from 1984 till 1991 - I used the newer alice gear, even with that nobody ever carried their first aid/compass pouch on there ammo case. if it was a first aid pouch it was on the shoulder suspenders and if it was a compass pouch it was on the belt itself

[@MichaelR58]

Thanks for sharing the side by side comparison, very nice display .I like the 1951 field jacket , the lower pockets were wool lined and the jacket itself has always felt warmer to me, than later issues. 👍

[@RiflemanMoore]

The M-1951 is a great jacket, I really like it, prefer the cut of the collar etc compared to the M-1965 but the hood of the latter is a neat feature.

[@MichaelR58]

@@RiflemanMoore agreed , I was going to bring up the collar of M51 to M65 , but didn't want to get too far off topic . The M51 just feels like a better made / quality jacket . It's what I grew up wearing ( my dad was a Korean War vet ) I was issued the green M65 in 76 when I joined ,and felt quality just wasn't the same . Kindest regards

[@slapout9]

As usual a great video. A little known fact of the American web gear is the front suspenders should actually be hooked to the sides of the belt! Not the front! Only the the ammo pouch straps should be connected to the front of the suspender straps.

[@RiflemanMoore]

I have seen the equipment worn that way. However as said in the video the original diagram shows the suspenders attached as I have them, right next to the buckle. You can see the diagram here; www.hardscrabblefarm.com/images/vietnam/m56-f24.gif

[@ke6ziu]

When I first wore ALICE gear, we would clip the H harness (what we Marines called suspenders...) to the belt, not the magazine pouches... but, we'd clip them to the fanny pack.

[@3ggztr3m3b33tz]

I would be particularly interested in seeing your view on the US Marines equipment during the same time. Being marines, they decided to do their own thing & create special built pouches that each held one M14 magazine (the M61). Most of their other gear was pretty much recycled gear from the Korean War/WW2. It wasn't until the late 60's that the M1956 gear would become available for most marines (though it can be seen earlier, due to some more enterprising types). 19:22 The M1956 pack was originally designed to also be a small backpack. The option of mounting it on the belt was really secondary.

[@ke6ziu]

The one thing they had back then in the M-56 kit, is a folding shovel... that was eventually replaced with an 3 way folding e-tool...

[@RiflemanMoore]

Indeed, I talk about this around the 18:30 mark, though it's covered in more detail in Part II.

[@reddevilparatrooper]

You are 98% correct about the M1956. On the Universal Ammunition Pouches, outside on both sides had straps sewn on and straps which snap in to hold the WWII MK2 or M26 Korean War era grenades on both sides. In the mid-1980s I hated the Y-strap ALICE suspenders. I had my Dad send me his old M1956 H harness suspenders or buy me one from the surplus store back home. I had 3 sets sent to me when I was on active duty in Germany. Back then they were 5 US Dollars a set. The M1956 Suspenders were comfortable on long road marches and carrying my Medium ALICE pack with frame or no frame installed. The next item which was the best item on the old M1956 was the Butt Pack. Smart infantrymen got this from surplus stores back home in the US and had it sent to them like me from Dad. That Butt Pack was crucial carrying extra socks, foot powder, stripped down MREs, attached extra canteens, STERNO stove and STERNO cans. The Army in the late 1980s brought back the ALICE version which was the improved M1967 Butt Pack for issue for Light Infantry, Airborne, Rangers, and Air Assault. The M1956 was a very good system after Korea and in during Vietnam improved as the light weight strong nylon M1967 System. In 1973 after Vietnam the beloved ALICE system was issued US Army wide. I have used it and modified it to my taste over the years until MOLLE in the early and mid 2000s for Iraq. The M1956 is a good functioning fighting LBE (Load Bearing Equipment) like the Pattern 58. I still keep the ALICE and the M1956 with mix and match for my M1A/M14, FAL/SLR, and PTR91/G-3 battle rifles in my collection. Now I want to get a complete British Pattern 58 infantryman's battle LBE in my collection. Outstanding presentation again!!!

[@RiflemanMoore]

I'll be going into more detail of the pouches and other components in the second part of this as I said. Interesting to read of you combining various patterns of kit together, I have to say the inter-compatibility of US kit throughout the years has always impressed me.

[@mnguy98]

This is a really interesting comparison, and I quite liked it, having an interest in both US and UK kit. It's pretty cool to see some US gear from someone overseas. The US sleeping bag straps (a.k.a "spaghetti straps") are my one major gripe about the M1956 gear. They were kinda confusing when I first got them, and they seem so awfully specific that I've never really used them. The 1958 Pattern kit looks promising, and I wish I could gain some "field" experience with it at airsoft games and camping/hiking trips. Finding a P58 belt that fits me is a big problem though.

[@RiflemanMoore]

Glad you found it interesting! I agree the sleeping bag straps seem like an odd choice to go with the system but perhaps understandable given the ideas of armoured infantry behind its design.

[@Yandarval]

For the British twit that proposed the felt covered, cork closed water battle. He should have been kicked around a parade square for three days solid. Just the idea of the WB returning to the haversack/kidney pouches is asinine. I does make me wonder if troop trial and feedback from the troops were actually listened to at all in the 50s. Things like the missing kidney loops, WB and the angling and placement of the ammo pouch hooks. While it took several iterations to fix some of these issues. The WB and loops should have been on the initial pattern. Another WTH is the grenade launcher pouch still being on new production right pouch's, long after it went out of service. Why that pouch was not widened to hold a field dressing. As an aside. As a medic, I replaced the kidney pouches with the WB pouches like many did. I also sometimes had the kidney pouches above them on the rear staps. The front seams were sewn together. The upper loops when around the shoulder straps. I think I removed some of the ironmongery for the lower attachments, on the kidneys for more comfort. I do recall sewing two buttons with elastic loops on each lid to keep them fully shut all the time. Bandages and IV fluids are all bulky and the smaller medical gear does like to go AWOL. I vaguely seem to remember the rubbish issue med bag may have been a 37 pattern haversack with a shoulder strap.

[@Pattern51lover]

I like setting my equipment up with an M56 buttpack and the Pattern 58 kidney pouches on top. You can carry all the things Very interested in the pack and sleeping gear video! Keep up the good work

[@RiflemanMoore]

How do you attach the kidney pouches about the butt pack?

[@Pattern51lover]

Rifleman Moore I rig them up on the back suspender straps above the buttpack. I have the later issue kidney pouches so they have the suspender supports straps and they are the main attachment. The belt straps are set up as they normally are but with out the belt and the quick release straps wrap around the suspender straps towards the middle. I hope that makes sense

[@RiflemanMoore]

It does indeed, I'll have to try it!

[@Pattern51lover]

Rifleman Moore groovy! Let me know what you think!

[@paulleigh7792]

Acquisition by US troops of British 1958 webbing was very highly prized. Traditionally, swaps were made by foreign troops on deployment to NATO exercises.

[@RiflemanMoore]

Interesting, not something I'd heard of before!

[@DevilbyMoonlight]

wise men would opt for the pick rather than the spade - a common prank was the turn the shovel around with the spade facing inwards if someone left their CEFO on the deck unattended - :/

[@jeroen79]

How would reattaching the shovel work? Especially in a hurry? It seems difficult to do by yourself. Would they just carry it by hand until things quiet down? Have a buddy attach it back to the pack?

[@usmcgrunt_1944]

I've never seen the first aid pouch set up on the M56 ammo pouch like that before, I'll have to set my Vietnam webbing up like that

[@RiflemanMoore]

I did say in the video it's set up as per the manual, rather than for field use. That said I have now found some photos showing this done beyond the pages of a manual!

[@tlmoscow]

If I was a GI, I think I’d covet the Pattern 58 shovel pretty desperately. I wouldn’t want to blown over onto my back while wearing it, though.

[@RiflemanMoore]

Very true, I wouldn't want to land on the shovel or pick helve for that matter but they are superior digging tools.

[@billmagowan1492]

@@RiflemanMoore I think you have the ‘58 shovel around the wrong way, which would make sitting down a bit uncomfortable to say the least….we always turned it the other way to follow the backsides’ contours!

[@vonsprague7913]

The US belt is dog s--t compared to the '58 belt. The kidney pouches weren't inaccessible and contained both mess tins in one full of rations, brew kit, kfs, etc and the other one had your nbc suit in it.

[@Jeffybonbon]

On one side of the British pouch is a small pocket with a metal clip we used to keep KFS but what was it designed for originally

[@RiflemanMoore]

It was designed for the Energa rifle grenade adapter.

[@chrissheppard5068]

@@RiflemanMoore Energa Projector which was long out of use.

[@RiflemanMoore]

Not when the equipment was first introduced. It was the later introduction of the Carl Gustaf and the LAW which rendered the energa obsolete in British service.

[@thebelfastvikingmartinbrow3603]

Most people I knew brought an after market metal cup and used the two or got a crusader cooking unit

[@RiflemanMoore]

Indeed, unfortunately the commercially available cups weren't available for quite some time after the initial introduction of 1958 Pattern, which is the period considered in the video. I think that's one of the reasons the 1944 Pattern cup and bottle remained popular for so long.

[@thebelfastvikingmartinbrow3603]

@@RiflemanMoore in Northern Ireland in the early 80s the army cadets was still using the 37 webbing and the SMLE . when I joined the army as a boy soldier I got the 58 with SLR.then after I left full time I joined the TA and got myself a shop brought 95 DPM chest set-up. With the SA.80. so i used all 3 British army rifles and 3 different types of webbing. And as I play Airsoft now and again I use my brother's old MTP webbing. Now the brother went Army Cadets ,TA, UDR, Army Cadets. And he has used 5 different sets of webbing

[@blueband8114]

Great video, i am of the opinion the 58 patt belt is superior to the US 56.

[@RiflemanMoore]

Many thanks! Why the preference might I ask?

[@ke6ziu]

This is why the US went to ALICE... all nylon, no canvas! It's essentially the same as the M-1956 deuce gear (Marine Corps lingo for 782 gear; field kit...), just in nylon... it doesn't get soaked with water when you go into the water, and drains fast! The major drawback, is the limits... with 2 magazine pouches, you can only carry 6 5.5.56mm magazines. You could throw 2 more pouches, but alas, some of us couldn't put 2 more pouches on the war belt. Plus, it made it difficult to move with the additional kit, especially under fire.

[@usmcgrunt_1944]

See, we have a mentality of we need to update our gear roughly every 10 to 30 years: M1910, M1923/1936, M1944/45, M1956, ALICE (1973), so on and so forth. Really muddies things up in my opinion.

[@smudger345]

Are any British 1958 pattern for sale? Wonderful video.

[@RiflemanMoore]

1958 Pattern can still be found cheaply enough in surplus stores and online, eBay etc. but generally components will later modifications of the items seen in this vide.

[@danielf1313]

Tons of it about, even on US eBay, anything from full sets to individual bits.

[@andreasdhamos8547]

curently serving in greece. greek army still uses the m1956. rly uncomfortable

[@johnsteele2986]

Where the wings original to the 1960 smock? Unusual for a Para not to wear a Denison back then!

[@RiflemanMoore]

It's not a 1960 Pattern smock, it's a 1950s, Korean War era example. I think you're forgetting that not only men of the Parachute Regiment qualified as parachutists.

[@johnsteele2986]

@@RiflemanMoore oh I didn't realise there was a smock prior to the 1960s one! Was there much difference? I guess he might have been an ex-para who either couldn't wear or couldn't keep his Denison. If he was a parachutist and never assigned to an airborne unit he would only receive the 'lightbulb' or 'parachute without wings' insignia, at least that is the policy now, I'm not sure how long that has been the case.

[@RiflemanMoore]

In the '50s it could have been worn by a member of any one of the men from supporting arms parachute trained and deployed with 1st or 6th Airborne Divisions during the war. There are a great many possibilities, though at that time putting insignia on a smock would be unusual, as discussed in the video. The Korean War era combats are not hugely different from the 1960 pattern. It is something I plan to cover in more depth in the future!

[@hirothajap]

i use both extensively playing airsoft. while i find US M1956 more customizeable and rigid, it has plenty of flaws like suspender front hooks coming undone, getting even heavier when wet etc. UK P58 is alot alot lighter therefore comfortable even with less paddings on it's suspender and the whole system is generally more stable and reliable. my only complain would be the canteen and it's pouch like others stated here.

[@JackMaus]

By the way your m56 gear is set up very wrong

[@RiflemanMoore]

No, it's not, it's set up exactly as per the illustrations on how to do so provided when M-1956 was initially introduced. These are freely available online. I do state this in the video.

[@JackMaus]

Rifleman Moore the compass pouch doesn’t go on the grenade holder I guess you could set up your suspenders like that but it seems uncomfortable

[@RiflemanMoore]

It appears you didn't read my previous reply.

[@JackMaus]

Rifleman Moore I did but the compass pouch does not go on the grenade holder it was never like that in the manuals it would usually be placed upside down on the right toolset for the compass to come out quick and for it to be easy to access

[@JackMaus]

Rifleman Moore also one of the spacers is to be put on the hook so it doesn’t slip