USEF Clinician Says She’d Flip Horses Over? |Katie Prudent Clinic

[@Milestone-Equestrian]

Finding out that this woman openly defends George Morris, a child s*xual predator, is the last nail in the coffin for me in terms of judging her. Defending people who are abusive simply because they were kind to you is a bad look and I think it also reflects poorly on all of the organizations who platform people who defend the trainers (like GM) they’ve banned for their conduct. It really isn’t a big ask morally for people to not openly defend a p*dophile and victim shame so that coupled w the clinic footage is more than enough to judge the quality of this persons morals IMO. Even if it was just a “bad day” in terms of how she spoke to students, a bad day doesn’t make you defend a predator.

[@beautyakimbo4833]

This! All of This!

[@cricket8438]

I agree with you on most of these things. Going to a clinic should be a learning experience not a place where you are embarrassed or humiliated, much less having to be aware of the danger the clinician poses. I have been to clinics given by Olympic riders that have been wonderful and a grand experience. I have also been to clinics where I was torn to shreds. These clinics are usually very expensive and often require travel, stabling, hotel, etc. In my opinion, it is unconscionable for a clinician to be unkind to the riders. George Morris was always overly demanding and often had riders in tears. We all had him on a pedestal at first but no matter how brilliant a rider he was, he had no right to disrespect people. When the rumors started about his abuse of a sexual nature started at shows it was not really surprising. It certainly added to my dislike for him and answered some questions I had. I feel extremely sorry for those he took advantage of and sincerely hope they will be able to heal. All predatory people should be reported and if guilty, punished to the maximum allowed by law.

[@annahalko-angemi]

Came to add this to the comment section.

[@JoyfulNerd400]

I already didn’t like her watching this video, now I just despise her as an SA victim

[@bnboerne]

All I can say is wow!! Definitely struck a nerve to read that. I wish I had not read that comment but it definitely needed to be said. It just so happens to be a topic that has been on my mind most of the week. You handle all of this professionally and with grace. Glad I ran across you❤

[@viktoriar1762]

It's appalling that USEF posted this. We have better ways to train horses and riders. Animal behavior science has come so far. If zoo animals can be taught with positive reinforcement, of couse horses can be taught the same way. Not recognizing clear signs of distress is an utter failure. Competing with horses is not worth this abusive behavior to both students and horses. Thank you for posting this.

[@peep3616]

I had horses as a kid/teen and had to stop after HS, got back into it as an adult last year, and ended up quitting again because of this. Inbetween horse riding, I got into dog sports and learned a lot about positive reinforcement. Going back to the horse world after that, where physical punishments are the norm, was just too much for me.

[@viktoriar1762]

@peep3616 I had a similar route, getting into animal behavior and learning positive reinforcement with dogs and cats. Then, I got back into the horse world and no longer have an interest in competing. The equestrian sport world is so reluctant to accept the science of horse behavior and R+.

[@annepettit3855]

I just wasted another hour of my life on required Safe Sport training for USEF…then they put up something like this where the trainer is bullying the kids, which is totally not allowed! Unfortunately there is no Safe Sport for the poor horses 🤬

[@susanhuls]

This.

[@mediceventer]

Yes I agree.

[@annetteunsworthqhht]

I've trained complete beginners to competitors....and I don't ever think I have used shaming as a training tool. Humour....yep....but shaming.... that's disgusting. The trainer needs to get over herself as she is clearly talentless as a teacher!!!!

[@cricket8438]

Amen!! I loved working with beginners; they were so much fun and always worked so hard. 🥳😘🥰

[@Makado14]

This trainer is not qualified to be training anything, horse or human. Sorry for my direct opinion but I'm not yelling it at her in front of others to hear. What really incites me is the lack of concern for the Grey horse. Watch when the horse is brought to a stop, his left hind ankle, it actually gives out on him. Wtf? And her derogatory remarks to her students are totally unacceptable. She is not fit for this type of job. I hope any of her students that are young enough to be living with their parents will show these comments to them, and they will do the right thing and get their kids away from this pretenders' talons.

[@spudster8295]

Thank you!! I’ve unfortunately had to leave one of my barns recently due to my coach being verbally abusive and constantly shamed us.

[@wintershock]

Yeah, like I have a strict trainer but shaming has never been used. Nothing cruel has ever been used towards us or the horses as a training tool. In fact, praise from someone who is very strict is the best motivator to do good.

[@annetteunsworthqhht]

@@wintershock tbf ..training a horse is giving that horse the opportunity to do the right thing to get the best result. Training a rider (who then hopefully will become a trainer themselves) should be the same as for the horses training. Strict is one thing...I can respect strict but this trainer here...as everybody has picked up on...is a nasty bully to humans as well as horses. I am genuinely sorry you had terrible trainers too. Unfortunately they will continue to produce terrible future trainers.

[@melanies.6030]

It disgusts me that she is trying to mold these students' minds in her image: one of intolerance, negativity, and hate. Saying "animal rights activists" in a disparaging tone, to indicate her objection should be theirs as well, is attempted brainwashing. Also, her teaching "style" is one of punching down, vs. encouraging and lifting up. She's doing to the humans what she promotes they do to the horses. She's despicable.

[@timeforthebus]

She was talking in such a close minded fashion that the first time I saw these clips I really thought they were from the ‘90s

[@shannonomeara243]

I agree. This is old school teaching. Not ok now. The rest of the clinic she was fine.

[@lesliemoiseauthor]

"When someone shows you who they are, believe them." ​@@shannonomeara243

[@caitlynharbidge3056]

"They need a good lickin" was so freaking 20th century its not funny, good lawd this woman needs some serious education and removal from equestrian rhetoric 😢

[@silverpurkat]

I grew up in this type of training back in the 80s and it made me hate riding by the time I was in my 20s. I stopped riding all together for a while until I had my daughter. She is now 16 and has the passion for it but I am very careful which trainer she goes to so she doesn’t have the same faith in burn out.

[@kendrauusitalo838]

Totally reminded me of the 90s.

[@careyfinding3310]

As usual, your analysis is spot-on. I grew up with trainers just like this. 'Get after him' 'Give him a swat' It was only later in life that I realized how bad this was for both horse and rider. Empathy, compassion and understanding are the only acceptable way to teach behaviours to our animal companions, be they horses, birds, dogs, etc. Equestrian culture needs to embrace change, move away from its harsh equipment and practices and grow up, realizing that the use of force and pain is something that desperately needs to be left in the past. I appreciate all you do for horse welfare.

[@Nyquil5]

It's the old "show him who is boss" mentality. There isn't a place for that now, and there never was.

[@rachelannie812]

Her tone is giving me flashbacks to being a kid in lessons! The tone is so common, you’re right.

[@ellesskay_]

this poor grey horse :( these awful industry standards are why i retired my mare early who now enjoys brushing, play and outdoor life. she is now thriving!

[@april5666]

I really appreciate how you took a larger view of this poor excuse for teaching to the larger concern of normalizing cruelty and disrespect in the horse community and the fact that this will definitely turn the public off the equine industry. I appreciate that you emphasized not focusing on this individual but the fact that this is prevalent in the horse industry. Very well stated, Shelby.

[@azys9168]

I just saw my ex trainer in that woman, that gave me anxiety I FEEL THEM I KNOW HOW IT IS, trainers like her were the reason I quit the sport I loved dearly

[@Hannahs_Mustangs]

You know what hurts the most to me? She reminds me of multiple instructors ive had over the years. And im no top tier jumper, but my horses are always tuned into me because of the good R+ has done for us!

[@joniFiercelyFueled]

I super appreciate your advocating and educating on actual behavior science! Punishment procedures are easy, and if that’s all someone can use they have a low skill level. It’s easy to hit and punish. It takes knowledge and humility to learn about the ins and outs of behavior and how to use R+ and other approaches.

[@girlwithpups]

Having two parents who are horse trainers that’s philosophy is #1 priority is horse welfare and #2 horse and rider basics and preparation, coming out of the bubble of our barn always blows my mind. We didn’t have packed competition schedules like some of these “competition barns” because it was productive to the learning environment. When we did go out all of the students had top scores most of the time. It’s crazy what building people up and having great foundations does. They always said the greatest compliment a trainer can receive is when they’re student surpasses trainer in skill.

[@0800sofa]

I don’t understand how people don’t get this. You analysed this situation thoroughly and brilliantly, with simple language that can be understood by anyone. Just so wonderfully made Shelby, thank you for your commentary

[@laney2403]

there’s a difference between being direct and just being a bully. I would consider my trainer “direct”, and I don’t come out of lessons feeling berated like this and we are actually quite good friends. She even cares about my horse too! crazy stuff. Horrible on USEF for posting and defending it

[@sihnpax6220]

seems like another case of the older generations being unwilling to learn and change their ways to be better to their animals and students "Im RiGhT, yOuR wRoNg, DeAl WiTh It" no carol, youre being proven wrong by science, maybe you should continue learning like the rest of us and be better.

[@Milestone-Equestrian]

yep, and blaming all of the “youngsters” for being “too sensitive” meanwhile, they are throwing toddler level temper tantrums when they’re told they’re being unnecessarily rude instead of changing their speech to be less rude 🙄

[@cynthiajohnston424]

Please don't assume all of the " older generation " instructors are like this woman or unwilling to learn & change . There are good & bad trainers & instructors of all ages & at all levels , from local pros to international level .

[@audreygregis8721]

It's always dangerous to group any age group into one.😉 I'm turning 70 in 2mo...and I've been fighting against this since I had horses at 16yo. My first horse had 7owners in his 6yrs. I had no internet, no videos, no person around me that even thought about feeling a horse's energy. Knowing by all his actions he had been manhandled, although he loved my farrier....I would have been crazy to think I'd win against a 1,000lb animal by brute force. Obviously, the other owners did not understand that.🙄 It did take 3yrs to get thru to him, that all people weren't bad, and he became the heart horse for a lovely girl. There have been many of us on the sidelines knowing these things were wrong, and walking in the dark to find better ways. And, there are some awesome old cowboys who knew decades ago there was a better way, but no internet to get that word out. Even today, the younger cowboys refuse to open their minds. Just after moving to NE Texas, almost 3yrs ago, with my wild-caught Mustang who was 15yo at the time...and I was working liberty with her in the roundpen. The young cowboy who I was told was sooo good, walks up and says, "Is that that stuff you talk about you do?" To say he was close-minded is an understatement. I heard he flipped over a 2yo.🤬 We all have a looong road ahead of us to break this kind of mentality. Thank God for the internet, because it's so much easier to call these asshats out...and try to change mindsets.

[@cynthiajohnston424]

@@audreygregis8721 Well said ! Like you , I'm 70+ & decided decades ago (while starting my pro career at 20 ) after watching & listening to the "old timers " who were not open to changes or learning about better training , vetting , etc. that I would be a life long student . Fortunately , I had great mentors , vets , farriers , & even fellow trainers & competitors who helped me . I rode multiple disciplines & had great teachers & clinicians ( except one , but 'nuff said ) . Hopefully , I passed some of their knowledge on to the next generation . 🥰 Returning to riding , as a hobby , this year ! 💙

[@audreygregis8721]

@@cynthiajohnston424 Good for you! We are never too old to do anything our heart desires.🥰 I just really dislike when someone bundles a whole age group into one, because that is never the case. There is always good and bad, no matter the age...and there always will be. I remember getting to see Walter Zettl, when he was touring with the Parelli's many many years ago...and he was adamant back then that dressage horses should be able to compete in a bitless bridle, if they can do the same as those who used those crazy bits. The problem with most things, there are few of us with a different mindset up against the rest with an "old, have to always do it this way" mindset...and the latter doesn't seem to want better for the horse.

[@pattykanis1442]

This is actually what we have been dealing with for so long. It’s very frustrating and difficult to find a trainer who is willing to put the welfare of the horse first. Our mare developed ulcers and was refusing to trailer load because of us allowing harmful training “techniques “ to continue.

[@melk3498]

Apart from the glaringly obvious issues with how she thinks you should handle and train a horse, I can’t halo but feel bad for the riders. When I was younger I had coaches like this and I was told to do things to horses that would NEVER think to do outside the coaches presence. But as a teenager I was far too scared to advocate for my horse or myself, so I did end up whipping the horse to ‘punish’ them. I never did it as hard as they wanted (through if I didn’t do it hard enough they would make me halt so they could do it themselves, normally far harder than I could even physically do…) It keeps me up at night that I felt unable to stand up for my horse. I used to come out of lesson’s sobbing and begging my horse to forgive me. Luckily I only had this coach for a bit under 2 years before I could get out of the situation. I couldn’t leave because I only owned 50% of my horse at the time and she owned the rest with the agreement that I would stay at her property for lessons. The trainer’s treatment of the riders is just awful, it brings me back to those lessons and clinics where I would break down and shake with anxiety about everything. My riding would turn to shit under the pressure. Gosh I’m glad I’m an adult now, I’d never let my horses anywhere near this woman

[@melk3498]

I couldn’t help but think when she said she would make the horse flip over “fuck it, get on and do it then. Go on”😅 She has a lot to say when she’s not the one riding. Obviously you should never do that but I just don’t believe she could ride this horse better than his rider- the horse was so stressed, he wouldn’t be able to handle this woman, he’d be able to feel her anger This woman was at the top of the sport in the late 80’s - and early 90’s, you can tell she’s very rigid in her thinking, this way of coaching and thoughts about how horses behave are like a time machine back to a competition stables in the 80’s. I’ve never been a fan of her riding but I don’t remember from the top of my head seeing her do anything like what we are hearing at this clinic, apart from some liberal whip use (then again most back then relied on the whip). It just goes to show you don’t know how they really are when they are at home without the cameras

[@lesliemoiseauthor]

@@melk3498 I audited a clinic she gave in the 70s or 80s and she was awful then, too. Full of herself. She "demonstrated" on a friend's horse, and was so busy bragging/not paying attention that he refused and she went over his head.

[@melk3498]

@@lesliemoiseauthor I’m not surprised, I’ve never been a fan of how she rides… never seemed quite as stable over the fences as I would expect. She’s always had this way of speaking to young riders. 😬 One of the riders at the barn I was at when I was a stable hand in the states did a clinic with her in the late 90’s and came out crying. She’s not the only coach from this time like this…

[@tanou5019]

Thanks Shelby if (possibly) young riders are taught with degrading and sarcastic speech, how does that in any way encourage a learning process? They are taught no empathy with another sentient being, as they didn’t experience it themselves. And that’s how a choleric screaming teacher made me hate school from second grade on. And it wasn’t only once, but always.

[@ladyspartafitness]

This is why there are sooooo many kids who are all stuck up snobs that do not know or understand anything about horses..... these are the coaches that create those stuck up dumb horseshow kids who only care about their status....how expensive there clothes and saddle is more important than anything

[@Catmaine207]

Her behavior was unacceptable but so was the riders. These are the top junior riders in the country and they were lacking basic horsemanship. Most of them couldn’t halt after a line or adjust the horses stride. These are made Hunter horses programmed to jump a course with there riders who I guarantee couldn’t even tack their horse properly a groom probably did it for them. This is what happens when you let people pay there way to the of a sport instead of learning the skills.

[@Milestone-Equestrian]

Oh for sure, but as the trainer its her job to change the exercises to be within their skill level and make it a learning experience for where their weaknesses are instead of verbally berating them and doing none of that.

[@Catmaine207]

@@Milestone-Equestrian I think some of the blame should fall on their home trainers as well you shouldn’t be jumping at all if your horsemanship and Flat work isn’t up to par. Most of the riders probably shouldn’t have even come to the clinic. Not that that excuses her behavior at all but I think everyone should be held accountable for the lack of horsemanship at this year’s Horsemaster Clinic.

[@silverpurkat]

What I found through the years that a professional winning rider doesn’t mean they are going to be an excellent trainer and the same could be said about a trainer that was a lower level rider. It’s all knowledge both in riding and horse health, delivery, teaching methods and patience is what makes an excellent trainer is in my opinion

[@janedoe4471]

I access pony club coaches for their accreditation… she would not have passed. Funnily enough, she would have failed long before she was belittling riders, the jump grids were not constructed to safety standards, she lefts cups on wings with no pole seated. She did not build with adequate exit space. The distances particularly with the ground poles did not look nor ride correct. Even if I’d placed her lesson on mute, the way the riders were “unable to complete” the exercises at a lower height, and yet she cranked the height up anyway……. If I had been asked to assess what coach, I’d probably be steering the conversation towards alternative career paths. Too much arrogance and too much to improve to ever hope for qualification…… so why does USEF(uck all sense) accept this!?

[@bnboerne]

I was shocked. Granted when I started riding 40yrs ago flipping horses was unheard of and that type of "training" was accepted. I honestly cannot believe someone pays her. A rider is not going to learn bc she is not training. All I have heard is criticism but not teaching them. I am typing as my thoughts are coming out of your mouth. I loved that you brought up George 😂 Her hostility is going to make the riders tense and upset. The horses feel that. At this point, nobody is learning anything. I think she needs to retire. You are 100% right. OMG! You are saying everything I was planning on saying. I learned the same way but I have learned better ways. Horsemanship is a lifelong education. You did a WONDERFUL JOB articulating this response. Kudos to you.

[@pjk1714]

Well said you... The response was necessary with the outrage. It's shallow and doubt it will reduce her clinic participation. I saw some junior riders expecting horses to compensate. This is also how very good horses end up at an auction and eventually that doesn't work out. Three Bill's going to Congress will help welfare and stop slaughter if voter's contact representative expressing support. Stay warm ❤

[@nljh]

No one should be giving orders to you an your horse like that or even anything close. I feel sorry for these people and their horses that fall into a lot of bad advice. I did too and I still get it sometimes but now I can acknowledge it.

[@shannonomeara243]

Another soft snowflake… Cope or leave. #Soft

[@Milestone-Equestrian]

@@shannonomeara243you defend pedophilia, so nah, you should leave. Thanks for defending my post and commenting in defence of a child predator with a handle that has your first and last name, though! Easy to identify and avoid you because people who defend abusers are just like them ❤

[@Jen-iy7lq]

Outside of some of the disturbing comments in the video (I really hope these were just a bunch of flaky comments with no meaning behind it), I think there has to be some deeper-seeded issues in individuals to not only treat and teach children to treat animals this way but to be so triggered by a more empathic approach actually being somewhat scientific. I'm convinced some of these types are aware of the studies coming out supporting employment of softer alternatives forms of behavior modification and they think intimidation and contempt will deter their students from looking into it. Completely irresponsible especially since this information could save a life.

[@kmiklaszewski]

I think I would have made a statement with my horse and dismounted and walked out of that ring.

[@redfyresasoiaf]

I say this with the utmost respect to you but it sounds like you wouldn't have been there in the first place. The vast majority of these riders at this level, at clinics or otherwise, have drank the Koolaid a bit too much and fast to quit now. They no longer see this as an issue, do not see their horses as anything more than tools, and would just stick it out bc she's a big wig in the industry. Is that right? Absolutely not! Is it what I saw working in Wellington with Katie herself? Yep...

[@Milestone-Equestrian]

They can’t do that or they’d get bullied out of the industry and lose opportunities. Tbh, a lot of these people are trapped by circumstance because their entire identity is probably tied to how they are perceived in the horse world and most of those closest to them would shame them for taking a stand like that.

[@annamariayannetta242]

I'm right 👍 behind you🐎😞 5:10

[@rottsandspots]

Being wealthy and losing opportunities - not really a nice place to be if you can't stick up for what you feel is right. I would have answered back and been thrown out.

[@Milestone-Equestrian]

@@rottsandspots It’s easy for us to say this when we’re not immersed in that culture, though. Yes, they’re wealthy and privileged by they’re still people and in order to actually properly address the issue we do need to understand why it would be hard for them to take a stand and speak up. They’re all very young, too.

[@nodrill7908]

I hate those types of people. They’re acting like the horses owe us 🙄

[@Mewtwo12810]

This is what we unashamedly say to the next generation of riders and trainers??? “Horses need a licking sometimes”

[@NatalieSterrett]

Carlee was definitely not unprepared or not up to par on her flatwork. She has a Grand Prix record and just won the Maclay finals. She was probably having whatever issue with that horse being nervous or uncomfortable and katie exacerbated it with her shitty teaching.

[@alexisl4158]

Thank you for speaking out about this. There is so much wrong with her workshop. I am appalled that anyone thinks she is a good teacher.

[@caitlinw8351]

i’ve seen this language at at least 3 different h/j barns i rode at from age 5-16. they told me to beat horses as a kid. it’s so common

[@Clarke_Girls]

Hey shelby, i agree totally on everything. I do have a question though. My sister has been training a pony for a while now. She doesn't use whips or spurs and is very gentle with the aids however her pony seems to do a single tail swish almost every upward transition. She doesnt swish a lot, only once every time and she doesnt seem in pain. I was wondering if there was another reason some horse swish occasionally. It is never a windmill tail just an occasional swish. Any suggestions on what it may be?

[@louisejensen3086]

I once had a pony who did the same. At fist we thought it might be the saddle and getting him a custom made saddle seemed to fix the issue for a while. Then he started doing it again, and we found out he had a lot of scar tissue from his castration that needed surgical removal and was causing him a lot of pain - it was also what had made his back sore in the first place, because he wasn't moving correclty. After surgery the tail swishing went away for a few months again until he once again started showing signs that he was unfomfortable transitioning between gaits. We decided to get x-rays of his back and was very surpriset to find out that he (at the age of 12) had developed quite severe arthritis in most of his lumbar and sacral vertabrae. The vets said it was probably die to him being ridden too young (before we got him) and because he had been moving incorrectly due to the scar tissue. All this to say: Please get your horse checked by a vet, and by multiple specialists if "nothing is wrong". Even with arthritis in half his back, and scartussues making it painful for every step he took, my horse only showed a bit of tailswishing and no other signs of pain. The swishing could be something simple but it can also be a sign of very severe problems.

[@DeborahHamilton-q1w]

I guess I've been lucky over the years, to only encounter ONE instructor with the attitudes of Katie Prudent. That one instructor held the view that horses were incapable of emotion or even real thought and had to be dominated. I lasted two lessons and quit. Even clinics with Olympians - I've done 3 - I never encountered this attitude (I should mention I'm in Canada, although I doubt that makes much difference) to either horse or rider, so for me this is shocking. I had one instructor who could be a bit nasty if you did something, however inadvertently, he felt could hurt the horse! With the exception of that one instructor I mentioned earlier, every single one has emphasized that the crop is for reinforcing a leg aid, and never for abusing your horse. In my early years of riding, there were rumours abounding about a nearby stable where seriously questionable treatment/training of the horses was going on. That was one stable in an area where riding schools and boarding stables were almost as common as flies!

[@maddiekramereventing]

Yesss Shelby you hit the nail on the head. I was just having this debate with someone. When you’re in a position of power, you have an underlying responsibility to say things that you mean, not flippant remarks about beating your horses/flipping them over/crashing them into fences. I’m not as mad that training like this exists, but that it was broadcast and sponsored by USEF

[@katieernst7166]

A lot of people are focusing on the clinician rightly so, but can you imagine being one of these young riders who are now forever immortalized by this viral video? They probably felt powerless to speak up as to how she was speaking to them, while realizing that the ask was over their abilities. Hopefully they (and their parents) can move to learn from a qualified, more caring instructor how to fill in the riding blanks, and carry on to greater things!

[@Aimee0206]

I'm surprised you've not commented on the recent FEI dressage World Cup. Lottie Fry and Everdale won but god their routine was painful to watch. Everdale was behind the vertical pretty much the whole time, I'd probably score him a 10 out of 12 on the grimace pain scale but I'm no professional. His legs were disengaged and judge bias was horribly obvious. The poor thing's tongue was blue. The FEI rules specifically state that a score cannot be higher than 5 if the tongue is seen hanging out to the side - what did Lottie Fry score? 8.4. Ridiculous.

[@Milestone-Equestrian]

Can you link me to the video?

[@Aimee0206]

@@Milestone-Equestrian Absolutely! I'll send you a couple since there's a few different angles on the routine (as well as a clip pointing out the blue tongue, since it's a bit of a 'blink and you'll miss it' moment if you don't know where to look for it). The video from the audience member shows the pain face incredibly clearly. Video from FEI: kzbin.info/www/bejne/hJe3i6hni9Rqbcksi=saAEY30iNlw1_Gs0 Video from audience member: kzbin.info/www/bejne/m6WbhKqMfMh4mMUsi=_snf09luc7sais8B Video from DressageHub pointing out the blue tongue: kzbin.info/www/bejne/poW7c6lof8R4ipY

[@Jesswithponies]

Have you seen one of Lottie Fry's routines with Glamourdale where he had a 3 beat trot? I don't remember what event it was at but I can attempt to find the video. You can probably notice it in other tests she's done with Glamourdale too

[@Aimee0206]

@@Jesswithponies Just seen it now, it's an absolute disgrace.

[@Jesswithponies]

@@Aimee0206 yeah, FEI judging is not ok

[@suzyq-zy216]

I totally agree that Katie is a throwback to days we can LEAVE IN THE PAST! Sheesh!!! What a way to show your true colors and what a let down when so many people came to GM’s defense. To have the curtain pulled back on so many people you looked up to as a kid is a special kind of Wtaf?! ANYhoo! Onward and upward! I saw someone mention the grey’s tail wringing as frustration with the rider. I also saw someone mention ulcers. GREAT POINTS! To me, I see the perfect storm of all of these causes. As I don’t know the girl and horse involved, I’m going to say “probably” a lot in my loooong comment. I’m mainly speaking in general terms as my frustration comes from what the show world has become in general. To me, this particular horse and rider are merely one example of the thousands who have been treated the same way. FIRST- I DO NOT blame the kid riding the grey for what a humiliating disaster this has turned out to be for her, because this isn’t going away anytime soon. I blame her trainer and parents. The fact that she’s at a clinic with Katie Prudent in the first place means she’s wealthy. The fact that she’s there on a junior jumper that’s tuned WAY PAST her abilities, at a clinic that has expectations that she’s struggling with? That’s on the people recommending the horse and clinic to her in the first place. Shes probably been fast tracked through the pony and junior ranks on mounts that require little more than steering. Shame on everyone involved for first robbing this kid of learning how to ride, much less putting her in this position of being publicly, and eternally, cuz internet!, humiliated. This is squarely on their shoulders. This horse was probably shown by a more advanced rider that clicked with the horse and was able to get the best from it. They probably made it look easy. The kid from the clinic probably tried the horse while it was still in the mindset established by the better rider, so big problems didn’t crop up immediately. This is where the clinic has come in. BLESS BOTH THEIR HEARTS! 🥺😢 The horse’s tail wringing and habitual turning to the left, while hating turning to the left? It could be due to ulcers on the right that happen to hurt worse than ulcers on the left, but there’s still pain associated on BOTH sides. The horse may not have even had ulcers before now or they got worse, hence the turning issues showing up “out of the blue”. The kid looks like she’s stressed and probably afraid of the horse. She probably DOES hear what Katie’s asking her to do but is more afraid of the fight the horse will give her if she asks it to do what it doesn’t want to do. The kid knows she’s going to be told to beat or bully the horse through it, which has most likely ended in the obvious disaster it should. This is exactly how “bad habits” become ingrained in horses who eventually become “problem horses with bad attitudes”. Well NO SHIT! When you ignore body language or explore health reasons, then chalk it up to bad attitude if no health reasons are found, instead of owning up to poor training OF THE RIDER or BAD PURCHASING ADVICE FROM AN AGENT WITH DOLLAR SIGNS IN THEIR SIGHTS, what exactly do you expect?! This is EXACTLY what happens when parents with more money than sense get caught up in ribbons equaling clout. OR when spoiled kids mistake money and ribbons as self-worth. This poor horse. It makes me sad that we have little resolution to the problem as it’s not even seen as such, by so many that keep the cycle going.

[@rolexk3de]

Agree with you. I had watched some clips on FB & my first impression was that the two teachers were giggly, flippant and condescending. Just curious, who were the students in the class & how chosen? As a young teen I remember watching Katie ride at a show & admiring her. Back then, I did have instructors like her...

[@elissalennon2520]

Thank you Shelby for your input!

[@shelleysuewho]

This is giving me ptsd from my first trainer 😅 very dominating and cruel.

[@katiesinthekitchen]

That is absolutely the culture I experienced when I was in the horse world.. And that was exactly the culture that eventually drove me away from it. I miss being around horses, but I refuse to be subjected to verbal abuse.

[@alala_emily8210]

I had trainers like this back in the day its soooo common

[@louisnealon6811]

She's a bully! What a horrible, horrible person!

[@annamariayannetta242]

I Agree, I would leave immediately 💔😞🐎 13:04

[@chandorequestrian]

AGREE! I stopped riding with a trainer because of their tightening of nosebands and girths.

[@mheinrichs44]

Very well said, thank you

[@deni9626]

The Martingale is too short isn't it. It is putting pressure on the wrong part of the neck. The Auctions are full of punished horses...OMG.

[@suzyq-zy216]

wow. To say you’d PURPOSEFULLY flip a horse over on you takes a special kind of stupid. Seems like Katie has done that one too many times, eh? It’s ironic that she’s calling someone ELSE weak in the brain… 🤨 Seeing old Katie here, proudly displaying her outdated methods of molding the next generations of horses and riders, I also started down memory lane of my showing days as a kid in Charlotte NC. We showed in NC, SC, Virginia, Atlanta and Nashville, TN. I’m 54, so I got to see several of Katie’s peers when they’d bring younger horses to the bigger A shows for the jumper classes. I’m talking the days when Tryon had one hedge fenced ring, an outside course and was eventually working on a new ring before I stopped showing. I remember all the juniors at my barn packed up and went to the very first Charlotte Gran Prix. I used to have a big thick show program signed by all the riders that I treasured as much as my boxes and boxes of CoTH. In fact, I STILL have a well worn copy of “A Very Young Rider” sitting on my shelf! When it was gifted to me, it was the fresh of the press! Anyone who’s read it likely remembers George Morris and other famous riders from the ‘70’s, being referenced in it. It also includes a page about his assistant trainer at the time. That assistant trainer was one of the men who later exposed GM as a groomer and pedo! It’s mind boggling to go back and read those parts, knowing the abuse those “featured” riders and trainers were most likely inflicting on the horses and people around them. I wonder if the pics of those riders schooling their jumpers have canes lying about and I just never noticed them because my eye and mind wouldn’t see them as out of the ordinary? What other “training aides” did I miss? Us “lower level” rider were groomed to see those as simply part of the training required to achieve fame and ability to ride at the Olympic and elite level. Granted, they were whispered about but never spoken about out loud. Seriously?! Wth?! Most of these trainers and riders were known to school their horses in areas “behind the barns”, removed from the usual schooling areas and usually far from prying eyes. It was said they needed the separate area and odd times in order to avoid the insanity that can be riding among juniors and amateurs. Their horses were investment horses that were being trained to win $100,000 grand prix’s, so fair enough. Tiny schooling areas can be a shite show of a circus. WHO could blame them, right? Riiiiiiiight… It was an open secret that they were also doing abusive things like temporarily hot wiring the fences or caning their jumpers so they’d be more careful. I remember seeing both of these happening in the more remote schooling areas, later in the day, after most people had packed up or headed to the hotel for a break before the jumpers went under the lights. Remember, this was long before the days of multiple show rings. A big show grounds that was local to us, Mecklenburg Hounds, had 2 rings and an outside course that was only used once in the 3 years I regularly showed there. Short stirrup and pony kids were early a.m. classes in the smaller ring. The fence height dictated the order of classes. The big, lower ring was for 3’3” and above, which usually started with juniors, a little later in the morning. Gran prixs were night big Saturday night classes. This left us younger riders a looooot of time to wander, watch and learn, perpetuating the cycle of abuse. As an adult, looking back now, it’s horrifying to think about. It’s no wonder we’ve come to a place where abuse is no longer relegated to the back corners and has escalated to the state it’s become. As you become numb to the seemingly small things, eventually, they ALL become small things!

[@louisecassidy5991]

Answer to it all is hands. A horse needs a lot of rein to jump properly. Inexperienced jump riders tend also to hit them in the mouth as the horse lands, so the horse puts on some resistance, such as running out like the grey, or simply refusing to make any attempt to jump.

[@OatCakes101]

Ive been told i was too soft every time ive ever ridden around other people. Ive been talked down to for trying to learn positive reinforcement, and it basically drove me to leave the hobby completely.

[@KH-tx6lg]

This is thinking horses are tools and not partners.

[@annahalko-angemi]

I agree with everything you said. And people and instructors today saying they were taught by trainers like this and ended up fine are part of the problem. Just like people who say I was spanked/hit as a child and I ended up just fine. It's ok to spank my kid. NO!!!!! You are abusive and repeating the cycle.

[@bordereau1]

Maybe because my daughter trained with trainers I vetted and made sure I refused to accept any toxicity. She ended up in the top doing ponies and moving onto horses. Its a decision of responsibility. Just like gymnasts.....parents thirsty for success makes for stupid decisions........

[@audreygregis8721]

Whether you are a teacher in a school setting, or teaching riding, it is well known that shaming or condescending remarks are the worst way to teach anyone anything. I can guarantee that anyone on this thread, just like I can, even at almost 70yo, will remember when someone embarrassed them, like this lady is doing. I remember when I heard Linda Tellington-Jones say how she always regretted what she did to horses before she knew better. And that is totally me, before I learned about natural horsemanship almost 20yrs ago. Although my very first horse at 17yo, who had 7 owners in his 6yrs, taught me patience can always turn a horse around...to undo what some asshat has done. Horses are never born to act out wrongly, rather act out to wrong, harsh training methods. This lady is everything many of us have been fighting to eradicate for decades. I would hope it becomes more mainstream to create a partnership with a horse, but I honestly won't hold my breath. This mindset is so in-grained that horses are just tools, it will take decades more to rid our world of it. Thank you for calling her out...from one of your newest subscribers.💕

[@VeronicaEquestrienne]

I would have dismounted my horse and left the training. I would never ever ride for a person like that.

[@geminidream4347]

Trainers who openly have disrespect for their students and horses should not be allowed to train!!! You want a killer horse, you send them to people like this and you'll get it!!! Everyone one that has /is being abused has a breaking point and THAT is when horrible things happen! What I like to call the 60 second nightmare. She is teaching bad horseperson behavior to the young that as you stated take all her words to heart. A circle of abuse begins! So thank you for pointing this out, parents don't send your kids to people like this!

[@daravajas6298]

Is it possible that the Grey horse is reacting to the rider? Not necessarily a pain response as you keep putting it??

[@michellejansen6165]

I think this commentary was taken out of context at least in part. I appreciate the point that this clinician isn’t the only one who makes rogue statements and I also agree that blaming the horse is not the answer. But I watched the entire clinic and I got some good advice from it. There is a lot going on here from the riders that led to the comments.

[@dr.ko1]

It seems like Katie is unfamiliar to a number of people commenting- which is totally fine. But just to add more context, Katie Monahan-Prudent was THE biggest name in American jumping in her day. As a woman competing with-and often winning against- men, she brought a lot of interest and attention to equestrian sports. It is a pretty awful feeling to see a childhood hero behaving like this, especially because she could claim to be the inspiration for lot of girls who pursued horse dreams. So disappointing and sad/frustrating!

[@lemmebeawinnerequestrian7555]

This is why I stopped taking lessons. I definitely don't allow people to talk like that to me, let alone pay them money to do it! I got very picky about who I ride with and have found a couple of great trainers!

[@michellestrickland7613]

It's hard to imagine people paying money to not only have their horses judged horribly but also themselves. Stop paying money for people to abuse you and animals in your care.

[@Milestone-Equestrian]

Unfortunately this attitude is so normalized that people don’t even view this as abusive speech and it’s viewed instead as “tough love” and directness. Not being on board with it is viewed then as over sensitivity. It’s very entrenched.

[@michellestrickland7613]

That why it's important for the riders and consumers of equestrian sports to say something and demand change. If change doesn't happen stop using these entities be they a company or a person. Yes it sucks when you can't compete with your peers but you are otherwise saying I don't like it but I can live with it.

[@raven556]

Kate has been taught that training with fear is better than trust. Also. Most of these were HUMAN error, not horse.

[@fiorideisole]

This lady gives me flashbacks to my first few trainers. And granted I was a very under confident and anxious child so their shitty comments really affected me and gave me even more anxiety with riding for years to come. It's not okay to act like this and it kills me it's so normalized in the horse world to be a bully to young kids who just want to live their passion and I'm glad it's being talked about more.

[@issnake1109]

The best/worst part is that her training methods are bs. “I’d be flipping that horse over” like maam. You know what that does? It hurts the horse, it hurts the rider, it traumatizes the horse and makes them less willing to comply with your partnership, and most of all it teaches the horse that all they have to do to get out of work is flip over and crush their rider. Same thing with the running into the fence thing. I’ve been to rodeos and seen my fellow riders try to teach their horses with these methods. You know what happened to the horse that was taught to run into a fence? It ran through a fence and almost crushed three pedestrians. Not only is this woman rude and ridiculous, but her training tips are complete and utter bs. The hell

[@Currabell]

Brutality and coercion is never warranted. Patience and kindness is needed.

[@christinemurray8542]

14:30. Exactly!!!

[@maureenkramanak7003]

As a teacher, we are NEVER allowed to punish students! Self-esteem in the ONLY important thing! We cannot EVER be negative!

[@cindymyers5960]

SHES NOT TEACHING THEM HOW TO RIDE SHES TEACHING TO ABUSE THE HORSE

[@c.l.5199]

Have any of the riders in this clinic offered their perspective? I think it would put things into context. Fretting over the horse world being canceled while you yourself attempt to destroy someone with whom you disagree is Ironic to say the least. One last point; no doubt junior riders are watching your video and with that said, what if Katie dropped the F bomb in her clinic? Think about it. Physician, heal thyself.

[@SapphireKid-zh3up]

Difficult to not single her out since she is so good at being sick. Shes beyond bad. Every sentence is in “authoritarian” mode which totally dismisses anyone/anything else’s need(s) above her own agenda. I’ll check out USEF but I am super surprised at this model of training since someone somewhere there who is involved must have gone to University and know this is barbaric. Simply barbaric. And I am a senior.

[@karenmiller129]

I am and always have been a horse lover. Ive ridden all my life with a few breaks (in time not bones). No animal EVER signed up for the inhumane ways that alot of humans treat them. There is NO book of rules that says horses must be ridden. Im 60yo and was born with a love for horses and a natural ability to ride however it was my darling grandmother who trained me to ride in the show ring. She was in her time considered a great horse woman however her way was to show the horse who was boss and thats how she trained me. She definitely wasnt mean to our horses and neither was I. Over the years tho i knew there was a much kinder way and im glad i sesrched for it. I found this woman very difficult to watch and completely disagree with her methods. Im so glad that the horse world is starting to evolve and that there are many kind hearted animal lovers who are putting the welfare of the horse first. They truly are the most beautiful animal God put breath into and they deserve to be treated with the kindest heart..

[@ktgequestrian4475]

The distances on the jumps look totally wrong ie. Too short.

[@pamelamccoy5220]

Thank you so much for addressing this. I'm pretty horrified this is what Katie Prudent has come to. (Last name is pronounced Pru-DAHNT.) Your assessments are right on. Well done!

[@Obsidianoak]

I can also vouch that being an ass to your students helps no one. I think behavior science should be mandatory for anyone in a teaching position. I also would be 100% fine with this lady being targeted by the community and run out so long as all the others like her are also evicted from the industry. There is a reason I selected the coach I did starting out for my horse she could problem solve communicate and teach. She was patient with horse and rider. Sadly after she retired I was unable to find a suitable replacement, there really are a lot of bad ones. Time to change the standard.

[@NuggieIsMissing]

Going to be honest, if I had a trainer talk to me or regard my horse like that, I’d be dismounting and leaving. I don’t care how much money it cost, I’m not going to stay for a trainer who speaks to me like that or promoting abuse to my horse

[@a-mz1000]

lol calling yourself a trainer and not even knowing what a riding crop/whip is supposed to be used for (pro tip: it has nothing to do with punishment) is pretty wild

[@rottiegirl0077]

I’m so glad I never had a trainer like this.

[@annamariayannetta242]

ME TOO!!!!!😞😞😞😞😞 4:10

[@0soobean0]

Having ridden with trainers much like her, she seems annoyed, and a lot of proffesional trainers dont always care about the riders feelings. The points she made were valid (don’t let your horse run you over, don’t get pulled out of the tack, listen the first time, don’t give up halfway in a correction) though the ways she said them were def harsh. They were completely fine and not horse abuse

[@annamariayannetta242]

I never rode in that kind of clinic, how HORRIBLE AND SAD😞💔🐴 7:52

[@RosieReins]

It's 2024, it's time that people stop paying a lot of money to self-entitled trainers who are down right jerks and give passive aggressive attitudes to people who want to just learn. No one should to be ripped apart and torn down. You can successfully become a better rider without having a self-righteous and rude trainer. Katie Prudent is so unprofessional with her approch of comunicating with riders and horse welfare...

[@mediceventer]

I could not believe it. She is acting this way. She used to be my Idol back in the day when she had Noren, who was a show jumper. I know she was probably taught by George Morris long ago. Every rider back in the day went to him for hunters. I cant believe she is this way, especially when they have SafeSport your now supposed to be mental abusing riders and degrating them, so sad. She probably didnt get the memo🤔. Her name is Katie Monahan Prudent. Al I can say is WOW!

[@gmwrick]

Not renewing USEF or USDF. That is the only way to get the point across.

[@iz9992]

the fact that students that compete at high levels aren’t even remotely listening to her telling them to be mean to their horses. Gives me some hope

[@legasy12]

Listen,when you're working with animals is like dealing with kids. At times you have to push them when they don't want to and at times you have to impose your will over them and with some you have to be a little stronger than others. Spanking a kid is not abuse,overdoing it is. So just cause you disagree with some methods doesn't mean it's wrong. Now everyone is making this kinds of videos over anything and criticizing just because they don't agree. Save it for the real abuse cases,thise are the ones that need to he confronted.

[@googlamonster5086]

Does anyone know if she ever ran a horse into a wall or flipped a horse? Does she have the gymnastic skills to bail off of the horse before it crashes? I don't get these references. To be the devil's advocate, I think the suggestion to excuse horse/riders who weren't at the proper level for that clinic was good. However, I think she would have gotten flack for that too.

[@Milestone-Equestrian]

I think the flack for changing the exercises to be at the skill level of the riders or excusing them would be way preferable to flack over abusive statements as far as the industry social license goes. I don’t think she actually ran a horse into the wall or flipped them in the clinic, unsure if she has done it ever, there’s someone in the comments section who says they’ve worked for her if you want to ask them about that

[@redfyresasoiaf]

Hi, I'm the person in the comment who worked for her! I don't think she's actually a horse flipper from what I saw (one season in Wellington last winter). She never rode while I was there, though Henri/her husband did ride a few times. She and her professional rider were not afraid of bitting up, LOVED cavesons tightened into the skull, were very familiar with the whip, and would occasionally beat on their one stallion to instill "respect" and so on but nothing overtly "flip that horse over, now." I think most of this is a lot of talk, not a lot of bite, but that isn't at all to discredit her ignoring other welfare issues at her farm, the way she sees horses as tools to succeed and little more, and the way she pushed both horse and rider daily in unsavory ways. Just a note to anyone curious, her horses were jumping 1.10m+ jumps DAILY except for on Mondays. If that doesn't tell you what kind of trainer she and Henri are...idk what will...

[@kymswan4942]

It is disgusting that there are prominent people out there like this, set in her ways and being right. Shame in USEF for using her services let alone anything else.

[@arribaficationwineho32]

She wants them to “stop in a line” after a jump? Who allows a horse to stop after a jump? If I am paying a trainer, do NOT call me a bird brain even if you think that

[@maevemartin2144]

As a side note to add- it's also on the rider of the grey horse for bringing him to a clinic in that state. The rider/owner/etc shouldn't have just continued on, in partial defense, it is not the woman's job to fix a pain/behavior issue with a horse during a 2-hour clinic. She's still horrible and I still hate her, but this is also on the riders.

[@Milestone-Equestrian]

Apparently they were catch riding horses and didn’t know the horses. I agree the owners and riders had a role, but the riders were juniors and listening to Katie who they view as way more experienced so as the clinician she absolutely should’ve noticed it. It’s not her job to fix the issue but it’s her job to notice it and not punish the horse for it.

[@maevemartin2144]

@@Milestone-Equestrian I completely agree. Wasn't aware this was a catch-ride which makes it even worse. Not sure how anyone is even supposed to learn something on a horse they've never ridden with teaching like that! Absolutely horrific.

[@carollinnan4268]

this type of thinking/teaching is unsafe for both horse and rider. if i were the parent of any of these kids i would find a different instructor. there is no place for people like this in any industry. this only promotes this type of behavior to go on to the next generation of equestrians. very sad

[@dukeshipman4970]

Do your research on who she has trained and her own accomplishments and please watch the full clinic

[@Milestone-Equestrian]

I don’t need to do my research to say this language is appalling. Her accomplishments don’t make it any more okay to encourage “giving horses a licking” or flipping them over. If prestige makes you okay with justifying abusive language, you do you, but I’m not going to enable shitty behaviour simply because someone won some competitions.

[@meganproffitt424]

There isn’t even a way to watch the full video, USEF took it down 😂

[@casdragon_5939]

So being accomplished makes abuse OK? USEF posted the video and took it down themselves; weird that they would do that if they didn't think it was an issue . . .

[@0soobean0]

The “disobedience” she refers to (to my understanding) is more of a “respect” for the rider situtation. Let’s say you ask your horse to move off your leg laterally and they don’t respond to that aid until a few seconds seconds or so after you ask, or you have to ask them multiple times. This would be a “disobedience” the horse understands what is being asked of him, what he doesn’t understand is the time frame allowed to react to that aid. What she is trying to teach the horse using a “whack and back” or whatever 😂 is the appropriate time frame to respond to your aids. And you see it in one of two ways; one being that the horse just needs to learn the time frame, two being the horse isn’t listening to you on purpose (personification ig). These are two main attempts you will see riders/trainers take towards their horses training. Both end up working out, one maybe slightly less stressful than the other.

[@Milestone-Equestrian]

Horses quite literally do not have the brain capacity to deliberately disrespect and it is both a rider and trainer error to take fear / pain responses as disobedience. They aren’t robots.

[@AlexandraVincent]

I’ve never heard of this lady until now. I watched a clip of her jumping a GP, and she knocked down almost every jump, and ran her horse into all of the jumps. It was really hard to watch. She should not be relevant anymore. If I had been in this clinic I would have walked out.

[@mielbernstein1452]

Many of these riders were on borrowed horses so they didn’t know each other. I’m sure the riders had these skills but add the pressure and horses they don’t know as well as the fight flight freeze they were experiencing. KP is responsible for the total sh$t show this ended up as.

[@lekoslosky1221]

It was sad to see that the clinician set up the horses for failure in the gymnastic. She should know how to set lines. That's how you get these horses to stop jumping. But that's just one thing I had a problem with with these clips.

[@katherineturnesa]

I bet you’re a really good rider and know a lot about riding a 1000+lb animal. They kick each other for FUN. We would die. Get real. Lemme know when your next horse show is. I’d love to see you ride.

[@Milestone-Equestrian]

You’re correct, I do know a lot. And basic equine behaviour knowledge makes it pretty clear play and punishment are quite different. I have a KZbin channel full of videos and yet even if I was the worlds shittiest rider, it doesn’t mean I can’t call out abusive language or know about horse behaviour. It’s absolutely hilarious to see how superficial and transparent the arguments of abuse apologists like yourself are. Good riders and trainers know how to train better than just beating a scared horse for any behaviour they don’t like. If you can’t comprehend a better way to train then I encourage you to learn more.

[@AuthenticMage]

And what about our safety as riders? Fine there may be underlying issues, but that greys behavior was dangerous. Correct the issues later fix the behavior now, or when his issues are fixed he’ll continue to be dangerous

[@Milestone-Equestrian]

Responding with punishment just suppresses warning behaviours so if we’re concerned about danger, encouraging students to ride through clear warning signals and signs of discomfort and using punishment as a fix is the worst thing you can do. So for rider safety, Katie handled it appallingly badly.

[@kathykass1628]

If that was my kid, I’d be getting a refund and taking the kid home. I’m not paying someone to abuse my kid or my animal

[@sharihazlett3774]

Katie appears to be extremely abusive. She acts like she doesn't even like horses. It just makes me angry 😠 😡 👿

[@TheJackeeeo]

I agree with your opinion but this video could have been 5 minutes long LOL. I was waiting for something profound but no, just the same thing was repeated for 23 minutes.

[@sarahwagland1559]

Thanks. I'm a couple of minutes in so that'll do.

[@Milestone-Equestrian]

Fortunately no one is forcing you to watch the whole thing! 😊