V1a Saxophone - Double Lip Embouchure

[@chrismills5110]

Teeth on Saxophone MPs was a military thing: An hundred years ago most Saxophonists would have been trained in Army bands: Bayonet your enemy, Bite your Saxophone, GGrr!! There is nothing gained by touching with teeth at all, but unpleasant vibrations. Bravo!! Somebody who knows how to play a Saxophone properly

[@paulennison9242]

Thank you for this feedback! All the best. PAul

[@grahammoores7244]

I appreciate this comment has I cant stand the vibrations on my teeth and as a beginner I was concerned if I was approaching' this all wrong

[@chrismills5110]

@@grahammoores7244 Adopt the double lip embouchure, it is very simple and you will gain strength and flexibilty which teeth on approaches prevent. Teeth touching is like stabiliser wheels on a child's bicycle

[@audreygrimm4759]

I find this video very encouraging thank you. I am from old high school 1979 and have been playing my tenor saxophone over the years using double lip embouchure method. Proper mouth placement and investing good mouthpiece play a good role of course in your sound however back in my days learning as teen back then time and education just wasn't enforced as it should of been. I doubt can I change my habit now but I can polish up my technique. Personally I use double embouchure method because my teeth were sensitive to the feel of reeds and gave me chills like scratching chalk board. On the other side it gave my sax a distinct sound in the band from the other sax players that they looked curiously at me and asked me if I was playing tenor like them because my tone was uniquely different. Apparently my tone impressed my music teacher in high school appointment me to play all the sax solos at all the musical contests and my awards speak for themselves . No one could get the vibrato sound I could play it was like the sax sung the song. I played in some local bands and musical groups for a long while and now it more a personal passion at home that I share occasionally at some special public events. I love the amazing sounds you can get from saxophone it feels alive and why shouldn't it you breathing life into it.

[@paulennison9242]

Audrey, thanks for sharing all this, I am glad to read it. I believe there is nothing I should add.... If you would change your habit now, what change would it be? Perhaps I do not understand fully your remark. Look forward to read from you again.

[@WalkOverHotCoal]

I have always used the "teeth and lower lip" technique on alto and tenor. Then I started playing the soprano. I find the mouthpiece is too small for me to fully enclose it with the "normal" technique. So I used the double-lips on the soprano. About a month or so ago, I started playing the clarinet again, and I found I have the same problem I have encountered playing the soprano. So I used the double-lips. To my surprise, I found it is quite appropriate to use the double-lips technique playing the clarinet. A bigger surprise was when I found myself subconsciously, yes, I wasn't aware of what I did, when I used the double-lips on my tenor, but only when I played the lower register. I found that when I used the double-lips technique, I allowed the reed more freedom to vibrate, hence a louder and brassier sound. However, I revert back to the "teeth-lower-lip" technique when I play the higher register. This is because I need to take in more mouthpiece then, also because of the altissimon notes require me to move the mouthpiece further in. One very interesting observation I made while re-learning the clarinet. I learned to not biting too hard. Before, when I first learn to use the double-lips, my upper lip hurts a lot. Now I realized that as I blow, the pressure from within my mouth actually forces my lips to form a tighter embouchure, so no need to bite too hard and feeling painful and sorry after an hour of practice. A bit of "cross fertilization" between the clarinet and the sax could be beneficial.

[@paulennison9242]

Thank you Liong for this detailed comment!

[@joekind1]

I am self-taught so I did the double lip for years until told to use the teeth. I will try it again.

[@_.angellopez]

Wow , thanks, I've been having my saxophone for almost 3 years... And still don't know how to play it properly. God bless you.😊

[@paulennison9242]

Angel, thank you very much for your comment. Well, not everybody learns at the same speed, so the main thing in my view is that you make progress! If you have any question that I should answer for you, feel free to propose the subject.

[@bobgreen1236]

Love your tone!

[@paulennison9242]

Thanks Bob, this is encouraging!

[@steady1985]

Thank you for the tips..it help me alot

[@ubongntiah2000]

This is the best approach to getting the right sound ... But I do this with my lower lip out more to get a huge sound using softer reeds and taking in more of the mouthpiece .. I know it's hard to master but once you get it .. Your sound gets so huge and stay on pitch and so many colors you can get also you can play for hrs without getting tired because no bitting.. and with very light reeds like 2 you can get huge volume and subtone is just a bliss .. altissimo is so easy .. but you have to first conquer the double lip with lower lip out! Vandoren V16 ...T75 java reeds 2... Cuts across electric bands when I want to and can play so soft and low in the house even my neighbors don't notice it a live sax some think it's a record playing! Can't stand mouthpiece patch and bitting .. also a Plus is that you don't have so much condensation on the horn or mouthpiece after every performance... Keeps the sax clean!

[@paulennison9242]

Thank you so much Ubong! I fully agree to the reed approach: I play Vandoren V16 for example, using strength 1.5 ! Keep on playing... I currently play a Guardala carbon mouthpiece "SKY" (by Nadir Ibrahimoglu) or his brighter Carbon MB II

[@johnnyberglund841]

Hi, I am basic a trumpet player, but start play alto - 98, selftought and never liked single lip, so after that I play d lip, but somtime I play both ways, even in same melody? Play d lip also on clarinet, as you say more feel in playing! Thanks for sharing, Im not alone in d lip! Johnny D Bergh

[@paulennison9242]

Thanks Johnny for this! I can imagine that you get used to double lip and then never switch back.... Have a great 2020!

[@shakydave]

I found the double lip embouchure prevents biting, and the horn plays more in tune instead of sharp and tinny. But the double lip is much harder to control.

[@paulennison9242]

Hello Dave, I do not find the double lip harder to control - but this seems very individual and it's hard to me to guess why for you it is more difficult.... Keep on anyway!

[@luislopez3963]

Thank You Now Subscribed

[@vivianastridge2167]

I was very greatly surprised to come across your video related to the double lip embouchure. I was also happy to note that there is at least one person who recommends this to would be saxophonists. I started my musical education on clarinet and the standard at that time was the double lip embouchure. I live in an apartment and the neighbors would not and could not tolerate the higher registers so I discontinued clarinet and took up the tenor saxophone which I thought was more expressive. I find I can play softly and very softly with the DL embouchure but am not able to play in the subtone mode. Can you advise as to the type of mouthpiece, chamber size , tip opening etc etc and the type of reed , say 2, 2.5 or 3. I have some twenty mouthpieces which I use at random and the reeds are usually 2.5 but sometimes 3. I think the mouthpiece is the most important item for the production of subtones so please help me out with this problem or perhaps you could produce a video concerning the production of subtones with the DL embouchure. I think there could be many with the same problem . Looking forward to any assistance with information and suggestions. Thank you very much.

[@paulennison9242]

Vivian, thanks so much for this feedback! I will make the subtone video as soon as I can. It works perfectly with double lip embouchure. I just tested it with the following set up: Mouthpiece Nadir FatBoy Sky Tenor FiberCarbon 7*, a Vandoren Supérieure 1 1/2 reed and a very thick lip over the teeth. The soft reed and lip are the key, together with a very low airflow. The mouthpiece has no baffle and a rather big chamber, which supports the deep tones. Talk soon!

[@vivianastridge2167]

Dear Mr Ennison, thank you for your so prompt reply. I was very very happy to note that you plan to put out a video concerning the production of the subtone sound. I am not a saxophonist of any sort repute and play exclusively for my own pleasure and that of a few of my close friends .I live in a third world country where specific accessories are rarer than hens’ teeth. I do have more than a handful of mouthpieces and am limited to one with a tip opening of 2.5mm and a lay of around 22mm and a medium chamber. The Rico Royal A5 would fit this specification. I cannot use a more open mouthpiece as I live in a flat and must play softly . I like the sound of the Selmer S80 and most of all the vintage Conn Eagle 75. But these are too close for subtone work. As already mentioned I can play softly and very softly but despite attempts over many many years using different techniques I seem not able to produce the subtone sound. I can without any difficulty produce a soft smooth warn and intimate sound but the missing breath sounds diminish greatly the beautifully expressive nature of the true subtone. I have been cursed with extremely thin lips and my mouth is nothing m ore than a slit on my face ! ! I have prepared a short note on subtone production for some friends who are also greatly interested in this mode of playing and I could send you a copy of this note if you wish. The subtone mode is the only way the saxophone should be played as it is only through this mode that the full potential of the instrument to be possibly the only such that can be the most beautifully expressive of any. I shall be eagerly looking forward to your video. Thank you sincerely for your so prompt and friendly reply.

[@paulennison9242]

Vivian, thanks again. I think my Nadir FatBoy 7* is not far from your 2.5 mm tip opening, perhaps 2.6. I believe it helps to start the tone more easily if you have good manufacturing quality mouthpiece with thin tip rail and side rails. But the soft reed seems for me the most important. Do you have 1 1/2 available? For lip, perhaps it works if you try to put all lip you have on the reed, leave the teeth far away.... and put as less force as you can to still produce the tone Yes, please send me your not under [e-mail]

[@vpm234]

Thanks I learnt something from you

[@paulennison9242]

Thank you for this kind feedback! Paul

[@raseshgandhi6702]

Thank you so much

[@paulennison9242]

Thank YOU Rasesh! I am happy to get some positive feedback!

[@theleftymonster]

I never took a saxophone lesson and that’s exactly how I assumed you supposed to play the saxophone. Later on when I learned that pretty much everyone else is putting the top teeth on the mouthpiece I was very disappointed that I learned it all wrong and I decided to correct myself and learn to do it “right way” so I gave it a shot but that it was such a horrible experience and I couldn’t stand playing like that more than 20 second. I got a feeling like when someone is scratching a nail on a chuck board. Upon further research I noticed that there is such thing like double lip embouchure and guess who was using this embouchure style? Yep, you said it John Coltrane!! so I had no reason to change it anymore. I feel like the whole instrument vibrates better and sounds better this way.

[@paulennison9242]

Hello Diamond Dust, I am of course happy to read this! thanks for writing!

[@hwpoison]

I had the same experience, in fact I don't mind doing it "the right way", I feel comfortable and i like my sound

[@directcurrent5751]

Double lipper here.

[@Lfunk1983]

John Coltrane

[@timedriverable]

Yua have a nice tone

[@paulennison9242]

Thank you David!

[@paulennison9242]

Thank you David!

[@Redwane-Music]

hi, it has been more then 6 years i am trying t learn to play on my alto, and i can't play 1st register with my front teeth on the mouth piece, it just goes to 2nd register right after C sharp, and especially F and lower notes, i just can't. so i play without the teeth touching anything. I think I am doing double lip embouchure, is that ok? is that normal that some people can't put their upper teeth on the mouth piece and they can still sound good ? please give me a good advise because whenever hear all these instructors on youtube say upper teeth on the mouth piece is a crucial thing I feel like putting the saxophone away and not try to play any more because they make me believe that i am doing it wrong and that can't learn saxophone the right way, and want to give up, . i am really confused. why i can't play the low register without accidentally switching to 2nd register, i just can't blow straight to low register like that. thank you

[@paulennison9242]

Hello Red! Thank you for writing, I am always happy to discuss. If you use double lip embouchure that's fully okay. Remember John Coltrane played like this and he is really famous. The rule on any instrument is that was works well for you (and does not prevent progress) and does not hurt and sounds good is allowed. In my view the sound and the playing is even better with double lip embouchure. I did this video because I always do double lip - never teeth on mouthpiece. You know, often teachers set rules, how to hold the the instrument, how to post your body etc. They do this until you are completely blocked and in tension. I prefer a natural way where you try out what is best for you. Do you play low register easily with double lip? Or do you want to discuss lower register anyway, how to play it more easily? Is your octave key tight? Are your upper teeth normal or do you have a special teeth arrangement (like Freddy Mercury...)? You can mail me under paul.ennison (at) orange.fr if you do not want to discuss here in public.

[@Redwane-Music]

@@paulennison9242 thank you Paul for your prompt response. I feel reassured to hear that. as far as the low register, yes I have some problem hitting the B flat , B, and C sharp straight without progression. Also i feel that with double lip we have to blow more air for the notes to sound right, i mean more air than with teeth on mouth piece, is that also true or it just seems to me?

[@paulennison9242]

@@Redwane-Music So far I did not notice that double lip would need more air and I would be a bit surprised if it did. Not easy to verify for me as I play no more "teeth on". So I tend to say "should not be the case", as the embouchure is airthight in any case

[@paulennison9242]

@@Redwane-Music I just remember one thing: when your reed is too strong, you have difficulties to get these low tones. What strength do you play? If you play let's say 2.5, you should try 1.5. Soft reeds are great to get deep tones. There is a funny story that people learning saxo believe that the better you play, the stronger can your reed be. Which is nonsense. I play 1.5 for a long time already, also used in the video.

[@Redwane-Music]

@@paulennison9242 waoo, i thought i switched to the lowest reed 2.5 from 3 , i didn't know that there is also 1.5, well that is one piece of information. thank you I should try that. I heard the the higher the reed number is the more difficult to play but also the more loud it gets especially going to high notes.

[@thepay]

I just started double embouchure because of sensitive teeth problems....... I cannot place my upper teeth on mouthpiece so I tried every means to continue my playing. But I found it's quite painful when playing high register such as high C#, high E & F, etc, would you please give me some advice on that, many thanks.

[@paulennison9242]

Hello, I believe you play already some years, right? (Looking at your Mission Impossible video...) For the high tones, I remember I was biting initially when I started saxo. Then I found out that you need to support the high tones by your embouchure, which I think nobody can explain in detail, technically. It's more trying out and succeed. Anyway, it is known that the mouth and throat geometry (incl tongue position) is part of the game, so it needs to be adapted to the high tones. For this, the idea is to create rather small volumes. But this is more the concept in your head: I could not notice for example a real position change of my tongue between deep and high tones. Hopefully you will then have the day when you get the high tones without biting!

[@paulennison9242]

I just have another good idea to train your embouchure for high tones: play the upper octave without pressing the octave key. So it's just your embouchure telling the saxo to play the higher tones and not the lower ones! The best way to start this is to play an upper octave note with octave key pressed, and then let go the octave key and try to hold the tone. Watch out: only for the upper tones of the upper octave, the octave key is really opening - so this is the relevant part. Technically, I should better say: the instrument playing the tones is not just the saxo - it is the combination of the saxo and your body, that means a combined resonating chamber. Changing your throat setting means changing your "instrument" - in this case for higher tones.

[@thepay]

@@paulennison9242 Many thanks for your advices and I will keep practicing. Hope I can succeed one day.

[@nathanpender3353]

I don't know how anyone can stand biting all of that buzzing

[@15matisse]

thank you will try as i struggle to keep my teeth in place...

[@davidbee8178]

You have a wonderful tone Paul! One of the great clarinetists of our age, Ricardo Morales, also plays double lip. Also, who I refer to as the "clarinet whisperer" Tom Ridenour (creator of fine woodwind instruments) is a huge fan and proponent of the double lip embouchure for better tone. It's obvious by your playing that it works! : -) Thank you !

[@paulennison9242]

Thanks David, this is nice to read! Regards, Paul

[@fernie51296]

You should also hear joffe’s interview with William Hudgins of the BSO. I believe he plays double lip and you can hear his playing at the end of the interview. It’s truly inspiring!

[@TheChampignons]

Fine !

[@aniloberoi]

Nice information... Thanks... More vid please

[@paulennison9242]

Anil, thanks for your feedback! I am currently not doing new saxo videos..... Hope I can restart one day...

[@EdwardARenner]

Thanks. This is how i play and i always thought i was wrong because everyone is biting.

[@paulennison9242]

Thanks for this comment and keep on playing double lip! By the way, you can also play with a tenor reed on an alto or a baritone reed on a tenor, to mention other things that can be done against the mainstream. If I could confirm that it's okay to play like this for you, my video was already worth making!

[@vivianastridge2167]

There is absolutely noting wrong with double lip playing , Edward, as this was what was used in the early days up until the late forties or mid fifties. But can you play subtone. ? The double lip embouchure produces a smooth, warm , intimate sound but playing subtone is almost impossible and this is the one big drawback of the double lip embouchure. The subtone sound I think is the true sound of the saxophone and i have not heard any saxophonist come anywhere near the greats subtone players of the part who have used the single lip embouchure.. I would like to hear from you about playing in subtone with the double lip embouchure . The very best to you.

[@mrjimmienoone2130]

I play clarinet, with double lip, exclusively. When I played sax with the teeth on the mouthpiece, as I had been told, the lower notes sounded uglissimo. Double lip on sax, too, really helped me a lot.

[@Relaxingfolkmusic]

i played this way for 14 years because of sensitive teeth...

[@pauldance7387]

I am a beginner self taught,..... from the trumpet, my teeth are too sensitive no one taught me this embouchure i’m so glad somebody is teaching it I was wondering if I was doing it wrong.