Vampire The Masquerade Lore: Who are the Old Clan Tzimisce? (Dracul & Koldun)

[@mrskittles08]

"In short, my childe, the Old Clan are just...they're just extra as all hell. Total drama queens."

[@quincykunz3481]

The gigachad Koldun have no need of factions, allies, or vicissitude. They were masters of sorcery before the Tremere even patched together their knockoff "thaumaturgy." They are utterly convinced of the paradigm of their own superiority... And I fear they are correct.

[@matteoallodi8030]

Weird how these two clans despises flesh crafting yet called themselves with a name usually associated with Vlad the Impaler, whom, if I do not err, was quite the enjoyer of such discipline.

[@ThisAintAStupidName]

I spent a significant amount of my neonate years in the land of the Voivodes. Though the horrors of the flesh wrought by some was beyond description, their power pales before the Koldun. I have met many sorcerers in my time, and none fill my immortal soul with such dread as the spirit-mages of the Tzimisce. I am forbidden by oaths of fealty and blood to discuss the details of my battle with a sorcerer of the Koldun, but I can divulge this: when I had defeated the Koldun I spent a century fighting, I refused the chance to diablerize her. Such is my respect, and healthy fear, for their skills. I did raid her library, though, and what a treasure trove it was. Should you need to travel the lands of the Koldun, or fall afoul of one of them, feel free to pay my domain a visit. I'll be happy to consult such an esteemed Ventrue, as long as my autonomy remains respected.

[@smuggrog9821]

I always found it ironic that the main thing Old Clan Tzimisce have that separates it from the "main" clan is that they don't have or refuse to use Vicissitude, yet we have canon characters in the Ordea League, which should make them part of the Old Clan, that have Vicissitude listed on thier character sheet. Like for example you have Hedeon who is part of the Ordea League yet has Vicissitude 8 on his character sheet. That's why I have personally always head canoned that the rejection of Vicissitude applies for the Old Clan Tzimisce in the Tal'Mahe'Ra specifically and not the bloodline/faction as a whole, with main thing that separates them from the main clan being that they kept to the old ways of the Tzimisce and never joined the Sabbat or the Cam.

[@youngimperialistmkii]

I love these guys. Old school dark lord vampires. Very Castlvania.

[@mikewaterfield3599]

Ok the red armored one on the throne looks like the art for Walach Harkkon.

[@JCinLapel]

I though of playing a Tzimisce but he has truned his back on the old ways being a young vamipire. He was a medical student that was being watched by the Salubri to become the next of the 7. A Sabbot Archbishop desided to take him as his own hoping the medical knowlage would be useful for fleach crafting. He left the Sabbot with the second incosision. He has possed as a Salubri even crafting a third eye for a time. He uses his skills to help humans at risk of losing limbs with his viccitude

[@thenameless2379]

Um... Am i the only one who recognizes the main hall of House Dimitrescu?

[@Shotta0202]

I hope they bring back Dur-An-Ki and Koldunic sorcery in V5

[@kkelvin100]

Another amazing video. You have quickly become my favorite VtM content creator. I watch your VtM lore videos almost religiously. Keep up the good work! Also, if you are in a VtM game and have room , let me know. I'd love to play with you.

[@LeftClick]

Because of their affinity for control and self-mastery, do those following the Koldun path also ascribe to the Azhi Dahaka, the Enlightenment of Tzimisce? It seems like the self-actualization philosophy matches the Tzimisce goal of transcendence through physical change.

[@theashspawn]

I could absolutly see a Koldun who was not a Dracul before doing so. One that started as a Dracul is another matter, but since they are known to throw away some parts of their old traditions I imagine any that would pick up Vicissitude might do so. But I would also exspect that to be rare.

[@LeftClick]

@@theashspawn Ah. Not mutually exclusive, but the Venn Diagram is narrow. Neat! Thank you, as always, for your insight into this most ancient and feared, if not revered, bloodlines.

[@diamondjack75]

I'll take Koldunic Sorcery over Vicissitude any night.

[@whitecreamymilk8436]

Why not both

[@diamondjack75]

​@whitecreamymilk8436 From a narrative perspective, I, too, see vicissitude as a corruption of the soul. Kindred start unlife with more than enough of that as is. From a player's point of view, a seven foot tall, four armed creature with nine sets of eyes and three foot long barbed spikes, protruding from its spine just doesn't conjure up the vampiric image I felling love with as a child. Finally, this is more of a personal feeling if one must turn themselves into an H.R. Giger wet dream in order to be terrifying.... they lack an imagination.

[@tessa63627]

Thanks for the great video. Would love to see more. I'm particularly interested in the Setites and Gangrel. But all VtM lore interests me.

[@mrredeef]

Vicissitude wasn't necessarily from The Antediluvian Tzimisce, but instead it was a crazed spirit in the deep umbra that attacked the methuselah Andeleon. In order to save himself Andeleon had to "diablerize" it, absorbing it into himself. I couldn't find any strict timeline on this, but it seems to have been after 500BC because that was when he helped the True Black Hand unlock the Guarded Rubrics, and after he learned Vicissitude the True Black Hand started hunting him. Another "version" of the source of Vicissitude is that Tzimisce uncovered it later on by way of Kupala infecting Tzimisce from within, and that this infection spread to many of the other Tzimisce, with The Old Clan being the ones able to resist this infection. Guide to The Sabbat is probably the most core/canon book that supports the idea of Vicissitude as a disease, so the idea that it's not from Tzimisce himself is still semi-canon at the very least. Having Vicissitude not show up until post 500BC would definitely put a very strong split through the Tzimisce Clan, and indeed it, did, currently most of the clan is Sabbat who use Vicissitude, while there is a smaller, separate minority of The Old Clan who tend to be Koldun, and who universally view Vicissitude Tzimisce as slaves to their Vicissitude. Tzimisce himself was a mage, so it makes sense that his true discipline was Koldunic Sorcerery, or maybe the ability to control the emotions of people they've blood bound? It kinda makes sense that the spirit-infected wielders of mutagenic disease would probably have kicked the crap out of the "land sorcerers" and driven them off to the fringes of existence. For the most part the lore on this subject seems to be very confusing and convoluted, that the lore dumps are most just options for how your storyteller wants to use this stuff, and that a story teller could reduce any or all of it be lies/propaganda, but that the lies/propaganda itself -IS- canon, and would at the very least, be a part of the Tzimisce Clan's political landscape especially when it comes to how Koldun view Vicissitude.

[@mrredeef]

So in review: The Old Clan doesn't "abstain" from Vicissitude, rather: they just weren't infected by it. Vicissitude wasn't "always" with the clan. Vicissitude may or may not have originated from the Antediluvian Tzimisce.

[@theashspawn]

So this is one of the things where World of Darkness lore deliberately contradicts itself, if you read a source book on a piece of lore about one faction, the same lore in another faction’s book will say something else that makes them both impossible to be true at the same time. However In lore Vicissitude is specified to have been made by the eldest multiple times, he even used the power to turn one of his childer from a woman to a man in the first city. V5 seems to have doubled down on this now that it has been turned into a set of powers more so than a whole discipline. So if you don’t like a piece of lore however it is set up where you can ignore it. The way I try to understand the contradictions in the setting is "everything is canon but not all of it is true"

[@mrredeef]

@@theashspawn I think, given what I've seen so far, the most accurate explanation for the schism between Vicissitude Tzimisce vs Koldun is probably the Vicissitude = Kupala Infection explanation.

[@smuggrog9821]

@@mrredeef The problem with that theory is that the Eldest oldest childer like Gallod, Kartarirya, and Demdemeh all have Vicissitude and they were all sired when the Eldest was still wondering the earth. So before it finally settled in the Carpathian Mountains and even encountered Kupala, so the most accurate explanation is that the Eldest always had Vicissitude and the tales that it had it in the First City still seems to be the most accurate. If the Tzimisce are being corrupted by out side influence it is most likely through the use of Koldun, since in most tellings the Eldest learned to use that type of blood sorcery from Kupala. Now I am not saying Vicissitude is not an disease, it is but it seems to be that the Eldest Itself is the disease, kind of like how Malkav IS the madness network, the Eldest IS Vicissitude. Which is more then enough of an explanation for why the Old Clan would reject Vicissitude due to how much influence it gives thier antediluvian over them which is pretty much the angle V20 went with Old Clan to.

[@mrredeef]

@@smuggrog9821 Yeah, that makes sense, most of what I'm remembering comes from my 2nd Ed clanbook, the one on the grey paper. I don't recall if it actually talked much about the life of the eldest, or if it mostly glazed over everything.

[@caseybranton812]

You are a great narrator

[@jamesstewart917]

The speaker is a Ventrue, right? Wonder how long of he is supposed to be.

[@LezCharming]

My favorite of your vids! Well done!

[@GrimBorz300]

The grumpy old entitled boomers and the dedicated mage Chads.

[@swordmaster3131]

Out of curiosity is there any chance of learning more about the narrator's view on the Gangrel mariners

[@theashspawn]

The Mariners are indeed on the list of bloodlines I will be adressing.

[@jamesisaacson6379]

​@theashspawn are you going to do kasidy bloodline or Africa centric bloodline?

[@theashspawn]

@@jamesisaacson6379 I already have a video on the Kiasyd, as for the African bloodlines I am probably going to do a large collection video when talking about the Laibon akin to what I did for Hecata

[@carney484]

Please give a run down of the Volgirre Variant of Toreador I am so intrigued to hear your narration of them

[@theashspawn]

Those are on the list of bloodlines I will be doing, Although like this video they will be sharing it with another bloodline

[@carney484]

@@theashspawn I’m excited!

[@tomreit]

Vicissitude. Vi‧cis‧si‧tude.

[@Archangelm127]

OOC: Any connection to the Ordo Dracul from (ugh) VTR?

[@theashspawn]

I have alot less knowledge in Vampire the Requiem then I do Vampire the Masquerade so I may not be completely correct in this. But I do believe they are each others equivalent. The Ordo Dracul from VTR go much more into detail in how they work and are organised, where as the Dracul of VTM are alot more like a loose collection so alot more rules light in comparison.

[@Archangelm127]

@@theashspawn Thanks. I find the VTR lore far less compelling on every level, but several people I know and several people whose prose I enjoy are deeply into it.

[@ianyoder2537]

With your talk of mages it makes me wonder what you'll do when you run out of vampire sects? Will you talk about something else from WOD or just move onto another game? And if you do pick a different WOD topic will you keep this character or shift perspectives like to a hunter or a wraith?

[@theashspawn]

My current plan is once I have ran out of VTM content (which won’t happen for a while now) I will do a overview of the other creatures with this character as a closing part of this series. Then I will start up a new series (Probably WTA first) with a new character. I may go back to the VTM series but only if something new comes out or there’s an update to the lore or something like that.

[@ianyoder2537]

@@theashspawn Makes seance, a big part of the lore is that the other monsters don't know much about each other. So who's next? Aquatic Gangrel?

[@theashspawn]

@@ianyoder2537 you will have to wait and see whats next but the mariners are on the list of bloodlines.

[@nureko7766]

Basically Strahd von Zarovich😂

[@nbmoleminer5051]

❤