[Vampire: The Masquerade] Ranking the Bloodlines Part 3/4

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

Please lend your support and pick up a copy of They Came from the RPG Anthology! - one book containing over ten RPGs! - right here: tfc-rpg-anthology.backerkit.com/hosted_preorders 🎦

[@LeBarondeRais]

Finally some justice it's made for the underappreciated Samedi!! Thank you!

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

@@LeBarondeRais My pleasure! I understand they were rewritten between Onyx Path and Renegade printings of Cults of the Blood Gods, interestingly.

[@beejcarson]

Is the Gentleman not a fair judge? Passing on his own creation the Nephilim (and what a masterful crafted bloodline) because they do not have a symbol. No one can question the ethics of the Gentleman.

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

@@beejcarson Ethics are for cowards who need a falsehood to hide behind. Long live the cut and thrust of the Lasombra! /gets diablerised

[@djinn4273]

Im so glad the Samedi were ranked as Anti! They're by far my favourite bloodline ❤

[@karithay]

re: Old Clan Tzimisce. Although you say you are being generous, I think you got it right. When Tzimisce first came out, I was very much turned off by the presentation of a bunch of S&M freaks. When Old Clan was introduced in Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand they came with an interesting concept, albeit one wrapped up in silly soul eaters. Then Dark Ages came out and completely reframed the Tzimisce clan as a whole. It was now a clan with a rich history of nobility that degenerated over time. Then came the proper integration of the vicissitude as a disease as the Eldest itself. Taken together you get the Old Clan (who, yes, have seen a few strange interpretations) juxtaposed strongly against the mainline clan, their story emphasizing the decline and infection of the main line. They stand as the cruel nobility their cousins could have been, a nobility that has become all but ossified in reaction to the fluid transformation of the rest of the clan. It is hard to ask for something more in a bloodline in terms of story, and that is ultimately what matters.

[@smuggrog9821]

I think the only thing going against Old Clan Tzimisce is all the retcons they have gone through, Which has made the bloodlines concept very confusing and contradictory. Like what is a Old Clan Tzimisce and what thier origins are have changed so much from edition to edition. Like the Old Clan were first mentioned in the Players Guide to the Sabbat in second ed and in there they were just described as non-Sabbat elder Tzimisce and they still had the same discipline spread as the main clan. Then Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand retconned that, making Vicissitude an umbral infection and having the Old Clan reject the discipline and being the original clan Tzimisce, only for Clan Book Tzimisce to retcon that to. With the Eldest always having Vicissitude and the discipline always being part of the clan, the book even portrays the Old Clan the same way the Players Guide to the Sabbat did. V20 is also added thier retcons to the bloodline to, so yeah really messy and can understand some people disliking the bloodline due to this. That being said, I do really enjoy the Old Clan Tzimisce and I do think they make sense as a concept in the setting. Just like you said, if you look at the Tzimisce of the Dark Ages and how noble and powerful they were and how far they have degenerated as clan in modern nights, it makes perfect sense for thier to be a faction within the clan that stays true to old ways of the clan. Personally though, I portray Old Clan Tzimisce a bit differently and I try to make all contradictions around the bloodline make more sense. Like in my games, the Old Clan are simply elder Tzimisce that survived the Anarch revolt, didn't join the Sabbat or Cam, stuck to the old ways of the clan, and reject the metamorphosis mindset of main clan but not all of them necessarily reject the use of Vicissitude either. Some Old Clan Tzimisce have Vicissitude, mainly the ones in the Oradea League, view the discipline as another powerful tool they can use to exert thier will over thier land and subjects but don't become over reliant or obsessed with the discipline either. While other Old Clan Tzimisce, mostly the ones in the True Black Hand, reject the use of Vicissitude outright. But the main thing is that they all Old Clan Tzimisce reject the Path of Metamorphosis and the Sabbat.

[@karithay]

@@smuggrog9821 I would say yes and no. You are right to call out PGotS as their first appearance. PGotS only ever defined them as non-Sabbat and Inconnu. There is no discussion of disciplines; though, vicissitude as a disease was given a throw away nod. The first clan book does incorporate the lack of vicissitude and the soul eaters, but also rightly points out the paradox of ancients having vicissitude. However, the one expressed mention of their disciplines is in the template section, which lists Animalism, Auspex, and Dominate. Then, yes, you get to V20 which builds off the revised clanbook's claim that the Old Clanners are keepers of Koldunic Sorcery and goes crazy because Demon decided to muck with what was otherwise an interesting shamanic sorcery. Where I will grant you that V20 made some interesting story choices, the disciplines actually remained the same as set out by DSotBH. Oh, and let's not forget the BNS version for LARP, the "Carpathians", which can pick up protean for out of clan XP costs without a teacher. Putting aside the BNS change, that's pretty minimal retconning, as the disciplines only changed once (PGotS -> DSotBH). PGotS didn't go into super detail, but, yes, the change from them was a retcon. After that, they stayed the same, unless you count the flirtations with Koldunic Sorcery, but KS overall was added mechanics from Dark Ages, which makes it more of a clan wide issue. Even then, it was always an out of clan discipline. That said, what you describe as a way to reconcile the difference is still totally viable. Vampire has so much contradictory language, that you can play with much of it and Old Clan vs. main line and the nature of vicissitude are two of those bits. In fact, what you describe fits in perfectly with V5. Putting aside that there are no longer any clan specific disciplines in V5 and that how that plays out means that vicissitude cannot be a disease / infestation of the Eldest, the new Tzimisce discipline spread pretty perfectly weds the mainline and the Old Clan. It then gives you a choice to embrace vicissitude by developing those powers or stick with other protean powers, making the lack of vicissitude more of a philosophical one. To my knowledge, however, Old Clan haven't been expressly called out in V5 though, so there could be a deeper difference introduced as some point via a lore sheet.

[@smuggrog9821]

@@karithay Oh thanks for clearing that up, I only have V20, V5, and some Revised books. I don't own any 1st or 2ed books, I was able to see a pdf of PGotS online a few years ago but I guess I forgot or just skipped over the throw away nod for Vicissitude being a disease. Never was able to read the first Tzimisce clan book either but from what I heard from people who claimed to have read it, they said that the Old Clan were simply described as Elder non-Sabbat Tzimisce in the Carpathians and the rejecting of Vicissitude wasn't mentioned, which would imply they had the same discipline as the main clan. Oh and V5 Tzimisce and some contradictory lore when it comes to the Oradea League was my inspiration for this lore tweak. Like I always found it weird that Oradea League was supposed to be a faction of Old Clan Tzimisce but the two canon members of the faction, have or should have Vicissitude. Hedeon, a 5th gen Tzimisce has Vicissitude 8 on his character sheet and Piotr sire has Vicissitude to. Which made me come to the conclusion that thier must be more to being an Old Clan Tzimisce then just not having Vicissitude. Which if we look at thier clans history, kind of makes sense, like thier isn't much culturally difference between the Dark Ages Tzimisce and the Old Clan really. Like most Tzimisce of the Dark Ages hadn't gone full Clive Barker monster yet and most of them were pretty much the clan of voivodes, that would only use Vicissitude on themselves to refine thier " human" appearance, create monsters to defend thier holdings, or go zulo shape if they a forced to defend what is theirs themselves. V20 Dark Ages even say that despite the Road of Metamorphosis being created by and followed by Tzimisce, it was still only a minority of the clan, with most Tzimisce being followers of the Road of Kings. So the Tzimisce were more focused on nobility and rulership pre Sabbat, which is more inline with how the Old Clan act. But yeah, its just never made much sense to me that a Elder Tzimisce living in Carpathian, who survived the uprising of thier childer, still practices the old traditions of the clan, and never joined the Sabbat or the Camarilla wouldn't be consider an Old Clan Tzimisce just because they have Vicissitude.

[@karithay]

@@smuggrog9821 Again, I agree with you that the concept is fully viable; though, those Tzims would be in the minority of the clan overall. The distinction becomes one of old clan concept (or Old World as revised clanbook phrases it) vs. Old Clan bloodline. I recall the NPC you mention that is part of the Oradea League yet has vicissitude. Giving the passages a quick read and (importantly) ignoring what any wiki says, I can rationalize that choice. Bear with me, as I pull books off my shelf. PGotS (1992) mentions Oradea League and speaks of the "Old Clan" with quotes; kinda weird, I agree, but the overall discussion clearly meant to demarcate those that hold to the old ways vs. the new ways. DSotBH (1994) does not mention the Oradea League but introduced Old Clan, sans quotes. The first clanbook (1995) mentions the Oradea League as a collection of elders outside the Sabbat, but when it talks of Old Clan, there is no mention of the league. Then comes WoD2e (1996), and an author decides that Oradea League != Old Clan, which would actually fit what was written before. Interestingly enough, if we fast forward to the revised clanbook (2001), it never mentions Old Clan and Oradea League in the same breath. The closest it comes is a discussion of how Tzimisce Antitribue aren't a thing, "Groups of Tzimisce descended from one ancestor, like the ever-shrinking Oradea League, associate only with the same few relatives. Most, like the Old Clan, give lip service to the Sabbat..." Even that wording indicates that Oradea League isn't necessarily the same as Old Clan, but one could mistakenly read it as such. To bring this back to my earlier point, Old Clan the bloodline didn't change its disciplines once it was introduced (except in LARP), but "Old Clan" or Old World with vicissitude is still a viable concept. re Metamorphosis. It is important to remember that even in the Sabbat, most vamps were on [low] Humanity, and just because you're not on Metamorphosis doesn't mean you don't play around with vicissitude. Heck, the Tzimisce posterfiend, Vykos, is on Death and the Soul, and it definitely plays about with vicissitude.

[@dak4303]

Hi, Matthew. Thank you for revisiting Vampire. Your original clan videos and Dark Age chronicles have been a great source of entertainment and comfort over the years. It’s a pleasure to see these, now.

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

Thank you very much for continuing to watch them! It's genuinely appreciated.

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

Place bets now on the rankings of the bloodlines that appear in this video...

[@willbrashear]

I would but i know very few bloodlines other than Samedi, Nephelem, nictiku (original not the bloodline), harbingers of skulls, greek gangers, nagaraga, and the children of orisis, unless you or @woodwwad done a video on them

[@willbrashear]

the more i watch this the more of the bloodlines I do remember

[@aaronlevitz4984]

Another great video, and agree with a lot of your rankings...and that you were being generous with a few of them. Lol I like the Old Clan Tzimisce, as well. When it comes to the Disciplines, I think they link to the Tremere very nicely, since the Tremere gained Auspex and Dominate through their usurped Embrace. I like to see that the hubris of the Tremere believing themselves to be above most people would've prevented them from gaining Animalism and getting Dominate, since animals are far beneath them but humans are just under them. I'm sure that isn't the reason, but it's just something I like throw in as potential lore in my games to show just how high and might the Tremere were as Mages before they became Kindred.

[@ShieldWife]

You talked about two of my favorite Bloodlines: the Lhiannan and Old Clan Tzimisce. I really like the concept of the Lhiannan and feel like their archetype as pagan blood priests is as powerful and iconic as that of the Gangrel themselves. I think that expanding their role in the WoD would be cool. I also like the Old Clan Tzimisce, the hyper conservative, cruel yet honorable, masters of the land. I like them more in many ways than the standard Tzimisce. I’m less concerned by Vicissitude (or lack thereof) than the difference in culture between the old and new Clans. The Old Clan is just so iconically vampire.

[@sickjoe9174]

I always loved the flavor of Old Tzimisce and how their lore with the 'spirits within their land' ties into their clan weakness, plus in the metaplot how entwined they are with the Tremere and Gargoyles. The Nagaraja are one of those bloodlines I like for background worldbuilding purposes. When you look at how most of Cappadocious' Childer turned out, it always felt like the Nagaraja were offspring from this bloodwell (to me). Plenty of bloodthirsty savage biters who prefer independence over alignment with major factions and who also happen to smell like grave soil. If 2 points is a trajectory and 3 is the beginning of a pattern...then we got at least 4 points right there alone. :D Sometimes wonder if they're weapons of Lazarus against the souls and spirits of Cappadocians and Giovanni with their Nihilistics. The Samedi struck me as the natural exploration of the idea ' well if vampires are about eternal life and avoiding decay...what if we did the opposite?' But I like zombies and vampire assassins are cool.

[@cigman777]

RIP Maeghar, I love them but I understand your feelings on them. In my eyes the Dark Ages version of them was their best incarnation, I'm not a fan of the flaw of not being able to drink the blood straight from a kine. I also don't think they should have necromancy.

[@theOriginalS.P.]

I'm kind of a Lhiannan super fan. I think they call everything in to question what we think to know about kindred origin but in a good way. I would do a lot to get the opportunity to rewrite them for a new Dark Ages. They are so incredible anachronistic, maybe the Children of a nearly forgotten second generation vampire (which would appear to be third, due to their bane) and no other clan is so which like in a good way. Making Ogham a form of Koldun is one of the few things I liked about DAV20, btw. along with switching from Elements to Krainas, which have a much stronger connection to the land. That was a change I really enjoyed.

[@Cuheru]

Thank you for sharing some light on some of the 'issues' I have with the Hecata in V5. I'm speaking specifically of the messed up nature of adding so many offshoots and bloodlines in and expecting them to play nice just for survival. The idea some are just pretending, or something similar, makes a bit more sense. Of course, given how expensive loresheets are(in that perks are bought individually rather than like the scaling merit trees of CoD) I still feel like I couldn't play a Nagaraja or other bloodline properly without sinking in 6 or even all 7 of my starting merit points. In the interest of not turning this into a ranting post, I will *not* go into my nasty nasty thoughts on Oblivion. But I would like to say it's fascinating hearing how many sections of V20 I've read that it turned out you wrote. Maybe I'm just blind to author names on RPG books 🤣

[@johnstuartkeller5244]

Given your thoughts about Tzimisce (particularly their clan weakness), how do you handle Old Clan at your table? (Maybe a short answer, maybe a video 😁)

[@Guillotine-Chan]

The Lhiannan kept getting shafted each edition, they kept getting more and more debilitating weaknesses. Going from having a relatively mild one to just having weaknesses that makes one question how the Bloodline even exists.

[@otakuofmine]

The Lhiannan are interesting (as a witch I like things in that direction. absolutely agree with ur points. nature and crude is more fun). Its been a while since I read LTSRR, but I think I got your reference there iirc. Ohh thx again for the Maeghar than, i love weird and that book was just a good read. "u want odd - we give u odd". but i agree that i sounds more logical for Changelings to not be able to be embraced. but maybe there is another way for a comeback (a curse?). also agree on the point that free discipline choice takes character. VtmB is flawed, but a charming piece of crank. just the little pieces like dialogue, charas and music that is good. the end is rough absolutely. Nagaraja are quirky fun ones. dunno why they intrigue me, but they do. guilty as charged. higher ups dont want Bloodlines in V5? booo. agree that we dont need many, but some just make sense (or roped in likewise). I can say that the Nephilim make sense to exist I like the Nictuku. maybe not as they are yet, but i think there is huge potential and i want to see more stuff there. (btw agree on Dark Ages 20th) while I dont like the Viscisitude Virus Idea, I appreciate the Old Clan Idea still and a revisit would be interesting. oh yeah the drowned legacies - the name alone makes me wanna know more, sweet sweet mystery. loved that one bit in Chicago with the Bahari and the lake.

[@MayTTruck]

im so excited!

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

Place bets now!

[@MayTTruck]

@@TheGentlemanGamer ok, let's try 5! Lhiannan will be an Elder, due to their spiritual potential, and different perspective on the vampire mythos Maeghar will be Fledglings or Discharge, as they are much less interesting Kiasyd Nictuku have the potential for Methuselah, due to the implications they carry, but could also be Ancilla, because of their SPC potential, more than PC Old Clan Tzimisce could be an Elder, because of cutting themselves from the bore of Vicissitude and Phuri Dae seem like either an Elder or Neonate option, depending on the execution of their ethnic origin

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

@@MayTTruck I can tell you that you have got... one correct!

[@MayTTruck]

@@TheGentlemanGamer hell yeah!

[@MayTTruck]

@@TheGentlemanGamer surprised that I got 4/5 from the video, and that my reasoning was rather spot-on

[@Cuheru]

Also, kinda looking forward to what I expect to be a scathing review of the True Brujah next time. Not because I dislike them, quite the opposite. I had the rare and distinguished pleasure of being able to play one in a chronicle that started in Republican Rome and progressed to Modern Nights as a trio of Methuselahs.(The other two were a Salubri formerly of the Vesta Priestesshood and a Ravnos who used to be my character's slave). Was originally looking Lasombra in that far away long ago Character Creation time, but my Storyteller ended up guiding me to the Trujah and convinced me I could play one. Remains the greatest timeline of any character I've ever created.

[@jasminneitzel9067]

I used the Lihannan exactly as a bloodline descendet from Lilith, framed as a Drowned Legacy, in my Gilded Age game, that had themes of colonialism and cyclical Gehennas. So I agree with the high rating. They were good, scary and unique I'd never rated Old Clan Tzimisce that high. For me they for me are more of a concept of the Tzimisce that does not focus on just one Discipline, but I agree on how the concepts play well. Just wouldn't need to be a bloodline for me.

[@shadow-r3852]

Suggestion: since you mentioned the bloodlines video game: is there a way to get a ranking of the video games (at least the ones you know)? Thank you for the video series.

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

@@shadow-r3852 Honestly, I've not played enough of the recent games to be a fair judge. I haven't played Bloodhunt or any of the Choice of Games Vampire games, not the Wraith VR one.

[@shadow-r3852]

@@TheGentlemanGamer Well, I reckon even if you'd just talk about bloodlines and redemption it might be interesting enough? Maybe a different question: is there a VtM video game that I should really play out of the bunch? Thank you in advance

[@justinsellers9402]

I like the Nagaraja because they are a straight up Necromancy group that looks human, and does not have the Giovanni's monolithic clan.

[@elivazquez9287]

This video actually brings up an interesting question in my head, What actually does a bloodline entail in vampire the Masquerade? What makes a bloodline? How do you go about identifying a bloodline as opposed to just a separate group of X clans? Interesting

[@Nyj]

Nooooo....my Main Characterw Bloodline for 7 Years got into Discharge (Maeghar)😭

[@theOriginalS.P.]

I wonder about the push against bloodlines. What was that about? Have they ever told why and was that under the early leadership or later Renegade took over? If you aloud to talk about, of cause.

[@jaruwan.cchuenjit6147]

Do you think Kuei Jin learn anything from the Middle Eastern and South Asian vampire Clan and Bloodline?

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

@@jaruwan.cchuenjit6147 I can't see why they wouldn't, they tend to dislike each other.

[@willbrashear]

Are you going to do the gaki and kindred of the East?

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

@@willbrashear Nope. The Gaki don't have a symbol and the Wan Kuei aren't bloodlines.

[@willbrashear]

@@TheGentlemanGamer I just payed a demon hunter when we had a kindred of the east game. I figured that may be the case.

[@matteofurlotti6211]

Malkavian network explanations ranked?