A.I. Will Kill The Music Industry?

The rise of A.I. (Artificial Intelligence) is both impressive and terrifying at the same time. How is A.I. going to affect the music industry and are independent artist going to suffer or benefit form this technology? For more in-depth content - Become a " VG Local" - watchvg.com
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[@VaughnGeorge]

The rise of A.I. (Artificial Intelligence) is both impressive and terrifying at the same time. How is A.I. going to affect the music industry and are independent artist going to suffer or benefit form this technology? For more in-depth content - Become a " VG Local" - watchvg.com

[@donnied8127]

Remember "No Fairlight used on this recording" by Genesis? We'll have "no AI used to create this music" stickers on CDs...for us still buying physical media...

[@Der-Raubfischer]

The problems I see are: 1. Famous artists will use it as a tool to write them songs. (I’m sure this has already happened.) And we are paying for these fake songs. 2. Many so called bootlegs or “unpublished” songs from dead artist will be heard. So we will be confronted with a lot of lies brought to humans thru the help of AI. The last centuries we start to mistrust what we saw on photos (photoshopped) the next stage was mistrusting films if it’s real played or just CGI. Now we are starting to mistrust our most sensitive sense: The ear. So we will finally mistrust to our reality. Maybe this will drive humans mad.

[@JimmiG84]

I'm not too worried about #1 personally. Most hit songs are already written by the same team of songwriters and produced by the same handful of producers. Very few famous artists write their own music, so generic "pop" is already very fake. The song is basically written first, and then an artist is selected.

[@maccagrabme]

Most artists struggle to write good songs after being around a long time and find it difficult to move with the times so A. I can help with that and prolong their careers, I wouldn't be surprised if most major artists are using it already. We all just want good music so anything that can help produce that is a good thing. A. I will push artists to improve and be more creative.

[@AnalogX64]

Randy Travis is using AI because he can't sing like he used to since he had a stroke.

[@patriciodasilva7902]

Wait till someone steals it, they sue, and lose in court. This has already happened according to a music attorney.

[@CHESEABUN]

I agree. As a person who writes songs as a hobby since 1985. I remember in 1982 they was a case by the musicians union or some body to ban Electronic music back then.Thank God they did not succeed. This though is different. It is coming and it will be a trend for a while. What I have noticed recently is that a lot of Under 25 year olds are listening to older music. Why is this? Because mainstream music has become too over produced and the songs are just bland. I went a walk to our local park recently with my family and group of 15 year olds were listening to the Cure even wearing the T shirts. My daughter and her fiancée can’t stand mainstream music of today. Their tastes are very varied from Radiohead to 60’s folk rock bands. What could happen is that people may start listening to the original artists in the end after they have listened to the AI mixes firstly? But where does that leave new artists?

[@maccagrabme]

Agreed A. I is allowing the younger listeners to remix old music to suit their tastes and it's opening up their ears to other forms of music. The mainstream charts are awful so the sooner A. I replaces that the better, it can easily replace most of it right now. I think A. I will lead to some more interesting music and allow people who arent musicians to create which is surely a good thing if the end result sounds good. I'm personally not bothered whether the music I hear is generated or not if it sounds good although I think the human touch is in the lyrical content, without good meaningful lyrics the song isn't going to be good.

[@carla_groom]

Hello! Such an important topic.

[@night_soul]

AI could to be the savior of the music industry. It's not like we've already hit rock bottom with "top" DJs who can’t mix a song and trust on pre-recorded sets to save their lives or produce anything that isn’t straight out of a sample bank. People seem to love it! For years, the Beatport Top 100 has been a monument to this, dominated by tracks that are basically just a collection of pre-made loops. Electronic music is at an all-time low, knowledge-wise, with artists raking in millions for what amounts to glorified button-pressing, and the public just eats it up!

[@dezb1]

We could use AI to do dull but necessary tasks like sequencing traffic lights. Instead we seem determined to get it to do the fun stuff: make music, write poetry, paint and write books rather than take the burden of the mundane freeing up time for the beautiful stuff... the stuff that makes humanity worthwhile. I totally understand the use of AI in the field of engineering or surgery where accuracy is of the utmost importance. However as artist's should ease be our main goal? The seemingly relentless drive to use AI to dilute artistic endeavour seems to me at least to totally miss the point - art has the power affect change it inspires people to be better to reduce that endeavour to a code diminishes it and inturn diminishes us.

[@MrHarmonicminor]

Let's not use AI for sequencing Traffic Lights. Lets not let AI anywhere near critical systems. It hallucinates way too much.

[@federicoaschieri]

AI is used for art exactly because AI is quite poor right now. In art you can make whatever you want and call it art. You can copy other artists in a cheap way, and people will be fine. In science you can't copy previous scientists, because you have to create new knowledge. You can't claim that you discover how to make controlled nuclear fusion if you didn't do that, while AI can photoshop a song of Depeche Mode, change some notes and claim it's new. Tech companies don't care about making the world better, they care about making money. So they will try to replace the jobs we love the most. So all this has to be stopped, and we can, since they violate copyright law by stealing training data.

[@mwoodgates]

Personally I don’t think AI will ever beat a human because it hasn’t lived. It can’t match the collective genius of Mark and Rich from Mesh.

[@dbefore7165]

It’s trained on human experiences through. You don’t have to of had the same experience as the songwriter to enjoy the song

[@missyspence7381]

Very interesting video Vaughn I find it all quite scary give me proper music any day 😀

[@wietzejohanneskrikke1910]

There ought to be strict regulation on this technology, yet the reality is that nobody seems to be bothered by the biggest art heist in human history. I envision the future as even bleeker than you predict. I think that when a.i. gets smarter than humans, the game is essentially over for mankind and possibly all life on earth. This will happen within the next 5 years. That's my prediction.

[@silviosaecios5187]

Music made by artificial intelligence is not a danger for now. Because it lacks personality and the experiences of a human being. The songs produced seem like they were made like equations. It has rhymes, sounds and everything. But it has no depth. Who knows, if in the future an "artificial personality and memories" are added, the music produced will no longer be so generic.Martin Gore is a composer that I adore. And he puts things that he was experiencing or experienced in his songs. Making those who listen identify and feel what is being said there. His music makes me think. It's all very real and dense. Not a mere simulation.

[@mickrinaldiofficial979]

It's stealing a humans voice, what if you were david bowie ,hearing his voice on someone song????

[@RickyMontijo]

I think you need to hear a bit more, there are things out there i guarantee you wouldn’t know the difference.

[@Captain_Of_A_Starship]

​@@RickyMontijo Yeah, I heard a good neo soul ai song that was impressive so ai can luck up a few times on certain styles for now.

[@keithdunwoody1302]

It could be argued that quite lot of so-called human made music suffers from the same fate. Soulless, corporate garbage. I thought it couldn't get worse, but alas...

[@ovnilab]

*I strongly disagree. I've been working closely with it since it came out and a lot of it actually blows away a lot of human produced stuff. It even kills it with pure classical stuff, in the vein of Mozart, Bach etc.*

[@ljunggrenfam]

Exciting times, so much potential!

[@parkamark]

The capacity for original human thought is about to fall into a black hole.

[@trancepower1205]

Respect for leaving that public msg on Facebook and being honest to everyone shows how genuine you are my bro. Respect. 👊👊👊 Keep up the great work.

[@nuttob]

You are the first person I found that has discussed this intelligently. You are old enough to understand what younger people cannot as you pointed out...

[@VaughnGeorge]

Thank you ! I appreciate you taking the time to comment! VG :-)

[@michaelfaeth]

Keep using your organic intelligence to create music and enjoy the process folks. "Like Prince, Cobain, Lennon, Hendrix, worth more than some high tech trick."

[@ConstructionRewardForTheMasses]

Music is made by humans for humans. It’s made for giving and sharing love, feelings… if you listen music just for the rythme (in a rave party for example) no matter who made the song. But, and it’s the majority, in your bedroom when you’re sad, or happy, in your car, in a bar alone….How can it be made by an AI with somebody who’s just telling the machine : I want this, with this voice, with this singer … it’s only a copy -even if it’s new- We never call them Artists for sure.

[@stoneneils]

I i was at a rave and a song came on by Tucker Carlson I would care lol.

[@syracusemusic1539]

This slowly becoming the Terminator

[@VaughnGeorge]

You know it bud!! VG

[@the.real.dj.android4404]

Yeah with an AI Arnold Schwarzenegger

[@marcoantoniomarquezperez2652]

I can just imagine A.I. gong on tour. Opening act: Max Headroom. A.I. does it all for us. A better question would be? Where does that leave us as humans.

[@sawilliams]

It's the perfect storm of A.I. Generated music and the current state of peoples lack in musical taste.

[@ryde2012]

Ai should be used to help people not replace people. There will soon be a resistance against this

[@IzzyMansonOfficial]

1st time Viewer here, and so very glad that KZbin thought I should see this video. The Survival of I.A. (Independent Artist)... My first experience in catching your video and not sure how I ended up here..... this has been on my mind and weighing on me heavy..... I want to thank you for this video...... I don't quite see it as you do......... in fact, your vision of the future is actually a lot better and much more hopeful than mine and not near as dark............ and I absolutely do not want to listen to any music created by A.I. with that being said, I have been using A.I. to assist me in the making of my music videos...... And that replaces artists, who need art supplies, and companies who supply art supplies................ Now I do actually have a few actual Artists and i always use their Art as either Thumbnails or on page a groups, and love supporting my fans who are artistic... ......... The powers that be whether it is Record labels, or distributors or publishers, streaming platforms or Governments have already waited to long to address this and each day that goes by only allows A.I. to become more powerful and is replacing humans faster than humans can create their own replacements, and for what need will human life be needed in an A.I world. ........ soon A.I. will not need humans for anything.... and humans will have no need or anything to contribute to society,...... total collapse of the species in inevitable...... I believe they all think they are above A.I. and will be able to control it, but A.I. is always learning and much faster than humans.......... This stark vision of the future will take a little time though, and I hope to be off the planet by then.......lol..... Anyways, I have been working on an idea, and THANX to you, I believe I have the answer for I.A. and it will work for Independent Artists against or to assist against A.I. generated music, Record Labels, and Streaming Platforms.... I have spent my career doing things in the music industry that I was told was impossible to achieve and have yet to fail, although I do get put in check and it has cost me as a recording artist and a touring artist, but has opened up the industry for those that follow......... Would love to share it with you, but then i would be making my idea public, and of course I have learned valuable lessons.......... Again thank you for the inspiration and will be checking out a few more of your videos.......... The name of my company is GET FCT, pronounced (Get Phucked).........lol....... Not to hard to remember...... Going to initiate my idea this week and will let you know when the time is right....... and oh yeah,.... A.I. still struggles................ A friend of mine told me he had went to Suno to generate music in the style of Izzy Manson and told me that it struggles and cannot seem to be able to imitate or have the ability to capture my vocals and makes some very unique and comical to listen to..... I was very glad to hear this as AI also struggles to generate a consistent image of me as it cannot determine or quite figure out if I'm a male or female and if I have boobs or not.........lol.....it cannot figure out my vocal style, and neither can humans.. I enjoy listening to people try to imitate me... I may not be one of the better vocalist out there, but I for surely have a unique style..........lol...........

[@mickrinaldiofficial979]

We now need to talk about "registration of our individual voice against use of Ai and plagiarism, u should not be able to "copy anyone's vocals ,it's like stealing someone person!...

[@angryrabbitproductions1690]

A voice cannot be copyrighted. Using a voice that sounds like a famous artist in an original composition breaks no laws… regardless of how famous that artist may be. However, creating a work and then falsely claiming it is by someone else would be fraud.

[@FusedMusic]

Superb video V. I agree with all this and will go one further. I can see how record companies will do like they've done with Spotify and owning artist catalogues, I can see a time soon where they will buy the licence from artists, singers, producers etc to use AI to create new licenced content in their name. Fully authorised by the artist, or estate of those who are no longer with us, to bring more new music. Streams of this content will pay a percentage back to the artist, and all endorsed with their brand. Those artists could be paid by the licence holders to then contract for tours, merchandise, AI videos etc to give fans more "official" content. I ultimately see companies trying to get ahead of this technology, own the source material licences and training content for the AI, and generate new content for sale as a result. As for listeners Vs artists. I don't see them as the same aim or care. For the "creative" artists the creation is everything. But those who just wanna be "stars" and make money, they'll be losers. As for the audience. Most don't care who they listen to, or who created it. Yes fans will be precious, but the majority just don't care, so will accept AI music no problem. I think we have a year before fidelity gets good enough to be commercially viable. After that, it's a free for all of rights ownership and control of the tech.

[@dbefore7165]

The labels are already doing this and have their own ai departments

[@markkinnish1196]

Hi Vaughn George I’m new to the channel my name is Mark very into music loved the video you did few years ago about tears for fears I love that band I actually sing myself I did a recording at my cousins studio couple of years ago doing everybody wants to rule the world loads actually thought it was as curt singing when infact it was me. I’ve still got the recording on my phone. Anyway look forward to more updates from you.

[@mjg1544]

I think Kraftwerk probably envisioned this best. As the Grandfathers of Electronica…they probably knew it was a matter of time until the literal Robots would take over music especially with dancing robotic mannequins. But everything will need labels: “Not an AI construct” for music & movies.

[@RickyMontijo]

Im obsessed and worried about this tooic for the last month

[@nashf5925]

Thanks VG! Ironic that KZbin puts an AI work software before your video.

[@VaughnGeorge]

No way! hahaha!! VG :-)

[@whocares961]

It looks like artists will only be able to exist in the future if they perform well and often live! If they then captivate their audience, they will keep it. The disadvantage of this artificial intelligence music will be that people will listen to far too much and retain little for long... Spotify and Co. have also led to the fact that there are hardly any concept albums anymore because no one listens to them anymore! Things will then develop in this direction

[@stoneneils]

As it should be. Even I never felt comfortable recording tracks I knew i could not reproduce alone ad-hoc on a guitar or keyboard.

[@theaudioeng]

.... exactly, what are you expecting me to add to your forecast of AI Music VG. You said it all. It really is both scary and I honesty think (expect) will be soul destroying in the main. Only glimmer of hope I have personally, is yet another source of inspiration but very consciously aware of the fine line I will inevitably be treading, taking out the musical ideas/motifs/structures for my 'own' creations..... hence the Elephant in the Studio as it were. 🤔💥🤯

[@anthonymurphy34]

AI is truly our Frankenstein moment 🧠

[@VaughnGeorge]

Well said!! VG :-)

[@sidstoffels7013]

Very interesting points and great that you try to be as subjective as possible despite it being such a scary thing. As an audio/visual artist myself but also as a tech enthousiast, I've been trying to make sense of the whole situation myself from the moment A.I. started to make visual works. I also fear it's a Pandora's box and we reached a point of no return. Personally I also think A.I. is just an amplifier of what's already wrong with the arts industry as a whole, the death of the author to provide cheaper quantity over quality. However a little bright element, something A.I. can never replace is the human element of how personal experience influences a work. I think many people don't care about it, but personally with any work (music, visual artworks, movies,...), I'm very interested in hearing interviews and such with the artists who made it. You can't ask A.I. what led it to make something a certain way (well other than, it's a statistical result of the data it's been fed). But with a real human artist, they probably could write a whole book of what led them to make the things they make. And again that probably doesn't matter to a lot of people who just want the final product, but almost everyone has at least one idol. A person they can relate to and to look up to, someone they'll get obsessed about, read all the gossip about, collect signatures from, see live in person, etc. That's something A.I. can't provide. So in that matter I don't think that can completely die out. And maybe at one point when there's an oversaturation of generative art, people would want the complete opposite (as goes with any trend or cultural concepts). There definitely will be some uncertain and hard times for artists, but when was it ever easy. I don't think many people become artists because it was easy. And I think that's an important thing to remember to not feel too desperate as an artist. There's a reason why you make what you make other than money or success and you should hold on to that idea to pull you up. And though it might be a minority of people that care about that aspect of art, but there are still also a lot of people who do. And those people are your audience that always will be around because they can relate to you as a person. Because you are their human voice to make something beautiful of what they also feel inside.

[@chris-hu7tm]

The key in all this is that you need to see it as a tool for you to use, otherwise ull go insane and spend a lot of negative energy, this wont go away

[@dbefore7165]

Ai is both the tool and the craftsman.

[@andersakerblom9840]

I am a lyric writer.Before I was a troubadour with my own songs. With AI, I can write a lyric and then be able to hear it as I heard it in my head. From a lone guitar and a troubadour to a choir with a symphony orchestra. Something I will never do is claim to be the composer.It is, however, a hell of a job to get the AI ​​to make my text sound the way it does in my head, so I'm probably a little proud when I get the AI ​​to sound the way I want it to sound. It's not easy.

[@marcinmalinowski8894]

I think people will still want to listen to "human" music. Nobody will go to a concert to look at a computer. And since we have live music, even if the artist uses A.I. he'll have to recreate it himself at the concert anyway.

[@thesynthfloyd]

Have you ever seen a Chemical Brothers concert?

[@marcinmalinowski8894]

@@thesynthfloyd I know what you mean, but it's that genre of music. What about rock or pop ?

[@wietzejohanneskrikke1910]

Did you see Coachella 2024? There was a virtual, computer animated popstar performing to an audience of thousands.

[@maccagrabme]

A. I won't stop dedicated musician from doing their thing.

[@dbefore7165]

The virtual ABBA concert is a hit

[@t.s.8783]

The music industry is really the least of the problems. Very scary things can happen with AI. 1984, on the other hand, could be a minor scare. But let's hope for the best because wonderful things can also be created.

[@stevenspencer4238]

Wouldn’t mind hearing an AI Alan Wilder filter run on post 1995 DM songs.

[@HR-iv9vc]

😆

[@salemhollst3884]

How does that support Alan Wilder’s music talent?

[@I8Trpn]

Greetings from California! I agree AI is terrifying but maybe there is an equilibrium somewhere.

[@TheFeedRocket]

What you said at the end is 100% correct, because right now I say make me an oil painting in the style of (whatever artists you want) and it's outstanding, So music will be the same, it will be perfect by next year, it will outperform real writers in creativity and musical composition, new styles and genre will happen, new forms of sound even. I would not have said that a year ago, but seeing art go from crap AI, to probably the greatest artist/photographer of all time in one year! Still takes a creative person to prompt it though. So it's not the end of the Music Industry, it is the end of the Music Industry "AS WE KNOW IT" Things change, they always change, tons of people will no longer make money with music,. BUT lots of new people will start to make money that never would have...more competition, money will spread out more, careers just from music will shrink, less stars. So you will always have the few making millions, but those making hundreds of thousands with solid careers will go away, as more people making a few thousand will expand, but it's not a living. You got to think if you make 30k now, that might go to a just a few thousand, thought you were a starving artist before, you now have a million new people making music. A. New artist will pop up and make money, most current starving artist will see a huge drop, not all, some could harness the new wave and breakout. B. Many people will stop buying new music and make their own, people will say to the AI "make me a playlist for my workout" (and they will be able to tailor it to there likes, complete new music in seconds) C. Money will still be made with pre AI music catalogs of the past for nostalgia, this will be seen as "real music" pre AI, authentic... 2024 will be the line of pre/post AI. D. As we enter the AI age, sadly people will never 100% believe its not some form of AI, you write a huge hit....in the back of peoples minds will always be...they used AI to help, that is SAD. E. We will have less people in music making big money, or making a serious living, so everything will shrink, you will always get your cool new top artist, but that's going to be less about the music, more about the personality. So that is just my take, and always remember, there will be new opportunities if you don't curl up in a ball or continue to live in the past, work harder, smarter and look at like an opportunity. Do not be the blacksmith that kept making horse-shoes while his friends got jobs in the car industry changing tires, building cars, etc. So the car industry and factories killed off the blacksmith but created more jobs, even executive jobs, designer jobs, gas station owners, on and on. Do I think AI will do that? not the same but yes it will create new opportunities, especially near term, long term we are all screwed (I think). Near term some people will get jobs as AI engineers, or prompt executives, AI sound designers, who knows, live performances will grow as people will want to see real people make real music.

[@ishimurabeats6108]

That's some interesting takes on this. But I rly don't think it will change that much. 90% of music today is already soulless. Backgroundmusic for shows ads etc is always made with a certain formula you just can't come up with something new or innovative and there are rly not that much people making a living out of it. So why not speed up the process and let some machines do the repetitive work. As for things like Spotify etc these platforms are already full with the same old garbage and 100k artists In every niche basically just copy paste rly similar songs. The times are already over where someone just making a song uploadimg it for someone to find it and get viral. So the music industry is already in a pretty dead state. But there's hope. There will always be more than enough space for talented musicians who got a story to tell. There will always be people buying merch from their favorite band and go see them so a live gig in their hometown. This is something AI will not be able to take away since this needs human interaction and we as humans are interested in stories by humans

[@NoDaysOff-oz2zl]

You must have brain damage if you think any of that garbage is any good. It's obviously terrible. AI will not "get better".

[@brilliantmiami]

Hi Vaughan. Great but scary video. I have been a musician for over 40 years and I'm also a professional photographer. AI has already started in the imaging sector. You can ask to generate almost anything and it will do it in a very realistic way. Things that would have taken hours to do before now take mere seconds and they are better or as good as any editor could have done. It will definitely put some photographers out of business very quickly and I'm afraid it will be actually easier with the music. The problem, IMHO, is copyright. Who is the composer? You create a prompt and then it will spit out a result. That is far from a composition and the "artist" hasn't done anything. Its sad and scary. 😢

[@m.stimson3829]

Hi 👋 Vaughn, thank you so 😊 much for this topic, 💖 I wish I could relate to this (as a consumer), but I feel like it could any genre of music 🎶 🎵: for instance I myself grew up listening to like Grunge (I wouldn't say they do someone like Kurt Cobain)?, also where I come from: the biggest genre is Country (lots of artists came from there), and 1 of them recently passed away ( back in February), I hope I don't see that... anyway thank you 😊.

[@alexioverdo5225]

It's a knife that cuts both ways.Side 1 is very useful and cuts off problems giving quick and kinda perfect solutions.Side 2 is Deadly.Can unsuspiciously kill both users and its creator.

[@sydiuk]

The World has changed. Forever.

[@VaughnGeorge]

The change is only going to accelerate.my friend and it scares me! VG :-) xx

[@sydiuk]

​@@VaughnGeorge AI is just an instrument. When computers started playing chess better than humans it did not kill chess as a game. And remember, when the Industrial Revolution started, everyone was scared, especially hand-crafters. So this arisen, say, rAIvolution will not kill the music industry, it will just split. We just need to get habit to the changes and challenges appearing. Just look at it like it is crutches for those who can't be musicians (artists, writers) for one reason or another.

[@martinapolat-imert8609]

Hey Vaughn, thx for this great topic. I discussed this with my kids (28 and 18 y) some days ago, cause both of them uses Spotify and Amazon for music. While I'm old fashioned by buying CD's from the artists I like. Both of them laughed about me cause it is too old fashioned using my old, but very rare Kenwood Stereo Station. Both of them thinking that many artists using AI for years but we didn't realised it. like music for tv or Cinema spots. . Maybe they're right. I'm afraid of using alexa orvother medium even it is easy. When the dM AI song popped up in the Internet I was fascinated and shocked at the same time. Daves voice was nice, the Lyrics like a b-side. But I really thought it is a new dM song. I'm only a conaumer, I dunno how to compose a song. But maybe it is great as a musician to use it for support?

[@stevengn7245]

Someone has done an AI of Andy Fletcher singing Depeche songs on youtube. So mad this technology

[@VaughnGeorge]

Wow ! Really ? That is hilarious! VG 🙂

[@stoneneils]

Look,. I'm a huge Morrissey fan but even if his AI sounded amazing singing Zeppelinor Abba or Police or Bob Seger or even Englebert Humberdink i would not be interested whatsoever. I'd like to hear HIM doing covers..but not a machine. Its like dating a robot. No thanks even if she's a 10/10 and gives great massage.

[@Glynn1965]

Really thought provoking. This could become really litigious. Use distinct voices (Dave Gahan) and distinct styles (current Depeche) to make a palatable song. Clearly has no depth or lyrical integrity but as you say this is just the start. I am just happy to have grown up with authentic, original Depeche. AI can copy but never replace - especially when it comes to live performance. If Dave’s voice wasn’t used - would it have been as impactful? I think not.

[@stoneneils]

I'm more of a Martin Gore guy myself.

[@picksalot1]

"The writing was on the wall" once analog was digitized. It was known then, and now it's all coming to fruition at exponential speed. Whatever you can imagine and program will be possible, and whatever you can't imagine, AI will be able to.

[@mtennantmusic]

This subject has been on my mind for a while now and all I keep thinking is, what's the point in making music anymore?

[@andrea_fryer]

As a visual artist, I have felt exactly the same due to AI generated art. Years and years of honing my skills... to become a master at my craft... to develop my own style... only to come to a point where my decades of expertise is not needed anymore. Why even bother? From now on, every artwork I make, there will be someone asking if it's AI. Every time I get a commission and give a time estimate, clients will say: "Oh it will take THAT long? No thanks" and they'll have some random member of their staff whip up something in minutes. Despite all of this... I've decided to embrace and adapt and try to see AI as an incredible tool that will not only improve the quality of my work but speed it up considerably.

[@RickyReject]

As a synth/electronic artist myself, there is no competing with AI generated content. But somewhere I would still like to believe that there is a place for humans as 'performing artists', however small or niche that may be. My reasoning is this: We've had the technology already for a long time to do automation of music play back - think of "mix tapes" back in the day, as an early example. In theory then, DJ's at night clubs should already have been replaced by mix tapes or Spotify playlists. Just connect an iPad to the speaker system and start a playlist. And still clubs with live DJ's will beat nightclubs with playlists all day long. I would like to think that people want that human performance and interaction. That gives me some hope in an otherwise bleak future for artists. But maybe, just maybe, there is a place where performing artists can survive.

[@jonakason4451]

These are very concerning thoughts and issues. I share your worries and wonder what it will mean to the future of music and really any field of human creativity.

[@VaughnGeorge]

Thank you brother! I try to be optimistic but when it comes to A.I. I see little hope for artists. VG 😞

[@andrewslovak9241]

Really well said, Vaughn. The variable that we just don't know yet will be, how much AI music will ultimately become a cacophony of simulated sound that, if not produced by a soul, reaches the soul? In other words, how will people **feel** about it when listening? Not all technology will be embraced just because it is new and amazing. Or, will it be something like sonic "fast food" where it will be mass produced as a novelty, but people still will want the artisanal as well? Will it replace compositions for budget TV and film in this kind of "tiered" fashion, but not the "album" or more authentic music? Just some "food for thought" :)

[@MrPomelo555]

Vaughn, is the music heard towards the end of your video an A.I. version of Pimpf ? 😮

[@winni223]

AI will at least financially de-valuate music and the music market. When it takes nothing it costs nothing. The majority will always like free and simple.

[@MiguelBortfeldt]

Hi Vaughn and thanks for your insight. I had just watched your reaction to the DM AI song and decided to check this video too. As you said, it wasn't bad and the use of Dave and Martin's voices is somewhat shocking but ultimately it could probably pass as a kind of DM demo not a full-fledged song. I am just a consumer and I am quite old school in that I still buy albums (via itunes) but I have bought loose songs in several cases because I didn't like the whole album. I only use Spotify (no suscription) to check out the albums, EPs etc and then decide if I buy it rather than risk spending money and being dissapointed as has sadly happened a few times in recent years. Would I consume AI generated music? For starters, I agree with you that, with the novelty, people will generate AI songs and post them and even try to sell them. I suppose it would be wishful thinking that these are clearly indicated as being such but even legislation wouldn't stop them trying to pass them off as real. At the moment, no, I wouldn't support AI generated music. As with all new technologies, it may have a good side (a useful tool maybe) but it's the bad side that can wreak havoc and it all depends on how we use it (thinking about smartphoines as you mentioned). At the moment, it's still very much in the "wait and see" position but as a proposal, maybe you could do more videos at regular intervals (6 months or less) as things develop and bring forward your perceptions of how things are developing. As a final, more positive thought, maybe it will end up like many things. As has often happened with novelties, the pendulum swings off to one extreme before swinging back and finally finding some kind of equilibrium. Things will probably look darker before it does. Whether we like it or not AI is already here to stay but I wouldn't sound the deathknell for original musicians and music. It may be hard to find them through the cacophony but I'm hopeful (I'm certain) they will always be there...

[@synaesmedia]

Frankly your scenario where people just use AI to make their own weird mixes of the sound of well known artists, seems pretty benign. The real question to ask is why there needs to be a "music industry". I have no doubt that for all of human history we've made music. And for 99.99% of that history no-one needed an "industry" or thought about music as a way to get rich. That's an incredibly recent phenomenon. Paid concerts are only a couple of hundred years old. Selling recordings is just over a hundred years old. These business models are a drop in the ocean compared to the long history of human music making. When the AIs can churn out an infinite quantity of "functional" music at zero cost, then, yes, there won't be jobs for musicians. But people will still make the music they want. For the sake of "art". (I certainly will, I make music because I enjoy it) Some people will learn instruments the old fashioned way. Others will buy synths or use DAWs etc. And many listeners will still preferentially consume music made from both those groups of artist. BECAUSE they like the idea of the human behind the music. But of course some other people will make funny mashups by typing a few words. But we'll all basically be doing it as a hobby. And there's no reason there won't be brilliant, creative, uplifting music or that people won't be perfectly happy with it. Good riddance if the "music industry" dies. Just let the amateurs run the show. Music will return to a communal activity.

[@VaughnGeorge]

You make some perfectly valid points in this very well written piece! I wail admit that I don't have the answers and I am afraid of the future. I guess all new tech is scary (just look through history). I guess it's a case of mankind having to adapt to it at the end of the day, I agree that the death of the conventional music industry is not a bad thing. Cheers, VG ;-)

[@addj7093]

Did Depeche Mode inspire some of the songs from the Terminator 2 soundtrack by Brad Fiedel? It sounds very industrial and I’m sure I can hear some parts of Stripped in some of the T2 songs.

[@ronwhite8324]

I play guitar and some piano. I've been plugging away for about 36 years now. While I don't think of myself as an "excellent" musician, I do feel confident that I'm at least a decent enough player . . . whatever that means. I met with a fellow musician friend at the park yesterday and she and I chatted about the topic of AI music and how it seems like it will eventually replace us. But I reminded my friend that, although AI music might get better and better, the day will not come anytime soon when AI can grab its guitar and head down to the park and sit at a park bench and play for passersby walking by and people on their bicycles and whatnot simply out enjoying the day. Sure, you can easily take a small PA system to some public setting and play some AI-generated music through it, but it pales in comparison to a human playing a real instrument using a skill set that they have honed over the course of a lifetime and the ability to translate emotions, tone, pauses, softness, and inflections all in a realtime performance, and I think people can appreciate that much more than a robot desperately trying to replicate those things which humans are already good at. Just my two cents. . . .

[@VaughnGeorge]

Very well said there my friend! Thank you for this sincere an sensible post!! Cheers. VG :-)

[@shanedesign43]

we all go into the wall , we are close to the terminator movie :(

[@djoneforever]

Where can i get an A.I. to compose my songs?

[@andrea_fryer]

Google "Udio" or "Suno"

[@raygrooves2666]

Ironically the only music it won’t replace for a longtime imo is the ones that use sampling and crate digging such as older hip hop styles and house , techno and drum and bass styles.

[@FredrikAndersson597]

Is it an AI version of Pimpf we hear in the background?

[@djoneforever]

It would be awesome. Im really tired of creating music

[@AckieleeAi]

Here something I wanted to say Using AI to enhance your music doesn’t diminish the authenticity of your voice as an artist. Your authentic voice encompasses more than just the physical sound of your vocals-it includes your creative vision, emotional expression, and personal experiences that shape your music. When you use AI in your music, you’re still the driving force behind the artistic decisions and expressions. Whether you’re using AI for production, vocal processing, or experimentation, it’s simply a tool that amplifies your creativity and expands the possibilities of your sound. Your authentic voice shines through in how you integrate AI into your music, the stories you tell, the emotions you convey, and the connections you forge with your audience. As long as you’re true to your artistic vision and express yourself genuinely, you’re using your authentic voice, AI-enhanced or not.

[@VaughnGeorge]

I very much appreciate this articulate and concise argument, Thank you, I appreciate comments like these!! VG :-)

[@AckieleeAi]

@@VaughnGeorge you’re welcome I’m a producer I have been making beats for seven years. I just wanted to say something that made sense to everyone and I don’t want to make other people think that using AI you have no authentic voice. cause I wanted to show that you can still be the driving force behind your music and I’m an early adopter of AI music. People have been giving me a lot of other opinions and telling me to stop supporting it. I’m the person that will embrace it, and you can’t stop it either because AI is being integrated everywhere so we’re gonna have to get used to it

[@VaughnGeorge]

@@AckieleeAi again ,this is exactly the kind of discussion I encourage here in the community! It's thoughtful and intelligent without being pompous! I'm glad you found us and I hope you will continue to engage with us ! Kind regards , VG 😎👍🎹

[@AckieleeAi]

@@VaughnGeorge yes I will continue to interact with you on your videos,

[@utube4andydent]

Thank you for a well thought out video. I agree that AI is just another powerful tool in the right hands can be used to enhance creative output. The invention of the camera changed how art is created but people still draw and paint despite being able to take a perfect picture. Artists are not copyists trying to make more of the same. The concept of the synth is not totally new either - Most church organs are based on mixing sounds!! AI is just taking what we know and taking this knowledge to another level. There is a 90 percent work 10 percent inspiration to any creative work. Maybe AI can do this but who will listen to it's output?

[@MadazzaMusik]

It's gonna go back to proper records I think

[@sammencia7945]

Not all bad. The AI version of Ceremony by Joy Division with AI Ian vocals is a treat. Different bass sound from Hooky as well. Blue Monday by JD. Etc.

[@harlycorner]

Just out of curiosity, why do you have so many photos of Tallinn in your intro?

[@VaughnGeorge]

Hello Sir! I live here now! VG :-)

[@harlycorner]

@@VaughnGeorge I see, that confirms what I suspected :) welcome to 🇪🇪

[@jaixiviii]

Many miss the wider spectrum of it all. Forget about an app that can do it seconds, what about the person that will care less to pick up a guitar to learn or the person that has broad understanding who wants to teach and would a group of friends even get together to make music with real instruments. So many other "human" factors go out the window with it all!

[@astronaut2005drummer]

Great video, my friend. I' m not interested in any music made with AI. I'm old school guy who loves the 80's bands... Duran Duran, Depeche Mode, Human League, Classix Nouveaux, Talk Talk, ABC, Spandau Ballet, Thompson Twins and many more from that era. :)

[@andrea_fryer]

I still have my precious vinyls of Duran Duran, Depeche Mode, Talk Talk, ABC and Thompson Twins that I bought as a teenager in the 80's.

[@modeman69]

I’m sure artists and musicians have been using for awhile…. We’ll probably find out soon.

[@JimmiG84]

Those who say AI-generated songs are boring, formulaic, lacking in personality and emotion etc. are completely missing the point. The technology is still in its infancy. It's only a matter of time until AI will be able to "fake" human emotions so convincingly that you will simply be unable to tell whether a song was written and performed by humans or by AI. Given the rapid pace of development, it's probably only a matter of a few years at most unless the technological development hits some kind of brick wall where it gets exponentially harder to improve the algorithms. Personally I think one possibility is that local bands and performers at pubs and small venues see an increase in popularity, as well as big artists and bands that can afford to constantly tour and perform at big venues. There will be a bigger emphasis on the performance and a human connection with the audience. If you're not performing live as an artist, you will become redundant and irrelevant within the next few years. You're not just competing against hundreds of thousands of other bedroom producers, but also against AI that can generate a song within a few seconds that sounds better than anything you could come up with in weeks. Services like Spotify will probably decline. It will get harder and harder to filter out the AI generated songs that will inevitably flood those services (It's simple maths: You have bands that put out maybe an album once a year vs AI that can continuously generate and dump countless songs on the platform every single day). They will probably try to introduce some "checkmark" to identify "real" songs, but in the end most people won't care whether the songs are AI or not because to them music is just background noise while studying or working etc. Paying licensing fees and royalties to artists and record companies won't be sustainable when free services can generate millions of songs per day.

[@federicoaschieri]

This indeed the argument that will make the AI music ship sink before that happens: it will be declared illegal, because the training data is stolen. It is against the fair use principle that the product that you make competes to such an extent with the stolen copyrighted works. So AI companies will end paying the royalties and fees to the artists (at least to those dummy enough to license their music).

[@JimmiG84]

I don't disagree that artists should be compensated since without their body of work none of this would have been possible. However I don't know how something like that could be arranged in practice given the huge datasets that AI algorithms pull from. You could try to argue that one particular song sounds a bit like Depeche Mode for example, but there are countless human artists who also sound a lot like Depeche Mode. It can also be argued that the way the human brain works is very similar to how AI learns. When you create music, you are also drawing heavily from your own influences, favorite bands/songs etc.

[@federicoaschieri]

@@JimmiG84 All you say is certainly valid, but it remains illegal to use copyrighted training data without commercial license. Humans *listen to* music , and that is allowed by the personal use license. It's a fact. In contrast, the CEO of the AI company injects the stolen digital musical files into an industrial process. Everything he uses, thus has to be supported by a corresponding commercial license. That according to current law.

[@shaevizla]

It's not just music but the whole internet is going to turn into an AI production dump (if owners of major platforms don't/can't bring this under control). If that happens, we'll probably just end up returning to small, obscure and gatekept communities.

[@wicked_one123]

I think we are facing with AI pretty the same situation with which (f.e) Daniel Miller had to have faced when he created the Mute Records. At that time the technological development allowed such "musicians" to create songs who were not able to play on any instruments, however they were able to express their creativity in musical way. In my opinion AI will make a new evolution leap of creativity, along with emerging new problems/conflicts like "the problem of genuineness, or originality". But these problems/conflict will be solved, as it use to be, of course with new technology, like web3.

[@greatgibby]

I absolutely believe that AI will play a MASSIVE role in the future and a very big one in all forms of art. Without a doubt people will be able to say "make me a song by so and so", just like when computers came out... People will use it as a tool and there will ALWAYS be a venue for real human made art. That is an internal need that humans have. I don't think that will ever be something that goes away. Human made art might take a huge hit at some point, but it will always be there for people to love and enjoy. There will probably come a time where musicians will end up working for the love of the art and not be able to make a real living like they have in the past... Hell that kind of living has already changed just like you said. I think music making will end up mostly being a hobby with a few stand out bands who have become creative enough to supersede what AI can do. Humans have souls... Computers don't.

[@albertosegundo5236]

Please review Pet Shop Boys Nonetheless

[@Shyeep]

I'm an AI artist / music producer.... and it has unleashed my creativity in this medium (I am a 2d/3d artist before that). AI is the birth of a new artistic renaissance, where a single artist can show more creativity and create even greater and bigger works than ever before (my latest music video is a good example of this). As AI improves we will only see more and more expressions and art. I know some people are just worried about money.... but art wise this is revolutionary for what and how humans will be able to express themselves.

[@digitaltrash_]

hear what: unique artists and producers will win the most, but simple and plain music which feels like business conveyor will fall off. it's time for people with strong and unique skills in music. 2025, mark my words.

[@VaughnGeorge]

I like your prediction! VG 😎👍🎹

[@CT37BN]

I'm sure sometime in the future when Depeche Mode retires and has been totally gone from our lives with only their music, albums, CD's and MTV's are what we have, some DM or even non-DM person/group will most definitely try and fulfill an entirely new collaborative A.I. generated Depeche Mode album complete with MTV. (Not just Depeche Mode it could be any band or famous personality). It's inevitable whether we like it or not.. or try to stop it or not.

[@EliasHug-ys7xt]

Even though I am worried about what AI could do to the world of music, there is a part of me that looks at the whole thing as a kind of trend. Last year so-called AI covers started to become a thing, but it was mostly used by people as an experiment rather than a serious tool. It was just all about „What if artist x sang a song by band y?“ However, after a few months the novelty of AI covers slowly died down. Now with these new AI tools many people will and already do use it to create entirely new songs by their favorite bands which certainly is very fascinating at the moment but will most likely wear off its magic over time. Also, at the end of the day most people still want their music to come from actual human beings. Knowing that a song was written from real thoughts or experiences helps us better connect with the music even if that only happens subconciously. This might all sound naive, but I always try to look at frightening things in an optimistic way.

[@Rynthion]

I've watched a few videos about the problems with people scamming spotify using AI content and other problems AI is causing in creative careers. In the last month AI music has been suggested to me by the youtube algorithm too, taking the place of niche bands I would rather find. If I wasn't paying attention to the songs I wouldn't have noticed they were generated by AI. It's really concerning for those who produce soundtracks and songs in other industries since it will be a lot cheaper to automate the skilled labor. Mouthpieces have been warning to legislate on this for over a decade now, the rug is going to get pulled out from under a lot of people who add genuine artistic value to the projects they contribute to.

[@ValeryBoikov]

To think that some people believe tribute bands are bad. Or covers, for that matter. At least there are real people involved. Now one can just enter a prompt and get a song that has nothing to do with real work and creative input. AI does not create, it just recycles. And it can use voices of artists that are dead, who cannot defend themselves legally, this is what creeps me out. The same thing happens in voiceover business. They can take a person's voice and put it over some 18+ ad without permission. As always, technology is rushing ahead while rules and regulations are falling behind.

[@PurifyWithLight]

Everyone will be riding around listening to music no one has ever heard but themselves. Though I've had fun writing lyrics and make a AI songs. It'll will never replace my massive music collection of REAL bands. A collection I now covet more than ever!

[@maccagrabme]

I've not heard a single A. I song that is better than the classics yet. I've heard better stuff than the mainstream trash but that's not difficult.

[@amanieux]

Ai music is like when photography was invented, painters did not became photographers, but photo was still a new art form and art is not defined by the mastering of a craftmanship it is about communicating an emotion

[@ArmaGeddon-iu1vv]

Your comment contains a false analogy. Musicians do not transform into "AI musicians," and AI-generated music is not an art form. It functions more like a recycling system that reorganizes data from human music and art. The user of an AI system has no control over the outcomes of the neural network, as it is literally random. While the input may contain "ideas", the human does not act as an "artist" in this process but rather as a passive client and viewer. If a DJ approaches a music producer and describes the type of music he would like to hear, but the producer handles the essential composition, playing, and recording, then the DJ is not an artist but merely a customer. If AI music generation is considered "creation," one could argue that "going to a record store and searching for music" is also a creative act.

[@amanieux]

I am sure painters did not see the first photographers as artists either and i agree with you that 99% of ai music will be of no interest as 99% of photos taken today are not art photo but the numbers are so huge that the 1% will be significant both in volume and in quality. there are still painters todays, there will still be musicians tomorrow, they will just have a strong competition from ai musicians.

[@leeQue]

+1

[@80sJayOfficial]

I have been a songwriter since 10 years old when i wrote my first song "London Boy". I had to write a lot of stinkers before i got good at it. I dont need ai to help me compose or write lyrics because i put in the time to craft my own sound and songs. AI will be the great faker but i think their will always be a place for authentic innovative artists. AI will seperate the boys & girls from the men and women. It will filter out the garbage from the true talent. It will push artists to do better or fail. I know ill always be able to write a better song that what AI can create. I know this because i put in the 40 years of hard work to perfect my craft. The real question is whether the listening public will care. The majority will not but those listeners arent my audience anyway. Im about catching the ears of refined listeners who seek quality over quantity, substance over artificial, craftsmanship over mass production. I really dont care if the music industry fails since its never been a part of why i do music in the first place. I do it for the right reasons. To connect, to reflect, to share emotions, to learn, to grow, to experience, to influence, If music doesn't give me goosebumps when writing it, then i just toss it. Because only your best should ever be put forth.

[@ridcomics9364]

I have been composing full themes for over 6 years now and it takes a lot of time 16 to 22 hours on a mix then mastering to video creation plus all the years of learning how to use many tools required. Now any kid with a phone or laptop can make 10 songs in minutes. How are real musicians going to keep up with that amount of content being pushed into the already over saturated digital music market place? It is really sad this is happening so quick with little to no laws to protect artists for there likeness and work style. A single album can take up to 7 months to a year in some cases to complete depending on the genre and many details required. Now anyone can make 8 songs in a few clicks with a prompt and little to no idea about music theory or to even understand how to play an instrument and all the mixing and hours of getting everything to sound just right for mastering. A.I will make music cheap and lacking in human emotion plus create a new generation of lazy no talented wanna be artists....welcome to the end of a great ERA !!!! Breaks my musical heart ....from Synthworx SWX

[@federicoaschieri]

But AI music is illegal right now. Copyright already protects artists. Any good lawyer will win hands down against AI music companies, because it is not fair use stealing copyrighted data and use it to compete in the same market. Midjourney will be the first to fall, then it will come the turn of AI music generators. They will be forced to license music. So original artists will be protected.

[@marwellus1]

Well, I wouldn't say that the future is that dark because music already has become a kind of universal commodity, streaming 24/7 out of thousands of channels, much of it being just "noise". As someone who is really into music it can be looking quite bleak already - Well, I'm not a musician nor a pro, I just grew up before "teh internetz era" too, and what I miss most is something like MTV in its best, most crazy days. It was fun to watch and to argue with friends about the music shown, for me and my generation which grew up in the 80s & 90s, it was a common ground. The flood that came with streaming has already turned the landscape into a endless broad ocean - AI music will just add another noise to it imho, it just recreates already known stuff, it's more a kind of smart mixing device since it does know all these patterns quite well - being trained for a gazillion of hours. The best songs it might ever produce will come from the input of quite creative people - real artists. They might create a new genre with some remarkable songs that are actually unique and probably quite fascinating. - But the rest of it will become quite forgettable. A good song needs passion and care besides creativity, it is created by an ongoing process, constantly reviewed and reflected upon, which creates new sounds and melodies, new ways to express thoughts and feelings. AI doesn't do this, as for now it's a deep network of correlations, it's like pure knowledge without a thinking mind. Another tool which requires someone to master it or it will just make some noise that just sounds eerily familiar at best. Artists will always do what they like to do in ways they like it, I'm quite sure about it, and the quality and impact of their songs depend on their abilities and creativity. AI won't help you with that right now.

[@danielgyllenbreider]

I think the impact of this "A.I." thing is exaggerated. It reminds me about the hype about virtual reality back in the 1990´s. Maybe in 30 years or something...

[@sharg0]

Music is art. AI isn't even intelligence - it's logical processes based on copying from existing data. I've listened to some AI enhanced music from people who's music I like but after a few times it always feels flat and lacking emotions. But if it kills the big-bucks-music-industry in favour of smaller, engaged people that cares more about music then their wallet.

[@waddy707]

I agree Vaughn, but Spotify & Apple Music etc have screwed the artist where they can only really make money from live gigs, thereby AI artist s can’t really profit from it unless they break down the stems and recreate live, so that then becomes an advantage to existing performers and producers who know how to arrange/produce for live shows. There will be AI detection tools, what may provide a royalties opportunity, otherwise as you say this will go underground.

[@GeorgeWilkinson-tn6xr]

A stark but potentially troubling future. I’m a consumer of music only, but it will become a miserable experience if this came true. In addition to this, where does this leave live music? The thrill of seeing a live band will die.

[@dbefore7165]

The flip side to the argument is that if AI can’t threaten your livelihood or creativity then your probably not very good in the first place, it will wipe out low and mid tier artists for sure ( me included)

[@Manfred-ml1oq]

Perfect...No drug addicted Superstars anymore,pretending to BE an Idol....

[@silviosaecios5187]

I want to see artificial intelligence do something as deep, dense and at the same time as simple as Soul with me. Something from a genius like Martin Gore.

[@retroelectrical]

The issue isn't AI songs taking over the top 10 that is going to ruin music. Shitty music has already ruined music. There's hardly any soul in today's music as the younger people of today haven't had to suffer through hard or trying times. You're never going to get another "Pink Floyd: The Wall" because everyone lives in a bubble.

[@DoodleDuduDude]

AI output is already undetectable at an emotional level that I’m sure Martin Gore is experiencing self doubt like most music producers these days ! However I still believe humans want to identify with the story teller behind the story, especially when it comes to profound art/music. And that will always be the producer, it’s just his hands on skills are being replaced by AI, and that’s going to end many careers, but would think there’d always be a place for the real artist producer

[@thealternatenow]

This is my creative take on where it’s going! The song was written and performed by human and not artificial intelligence!! kzbin.infoJ03PGv7iB4g?feature=share

[@thebeardedseeker5633]

I think eventually record labels will create AI artists and bands themselves, that way they won't have to pay the artists. Eventually they'll even create holographic musicians to go on tour to promote the AI band or artist. All proceeds going straight back to the record label. The future is going to be a win/win for them because the AI algorithm will tell them exactly what masses of any demographic want to hear.

[@vanessaadams3500]

I can tell you without a doubt that whatever AI does as Tom Cruse said..."it's not today"! There is so much more coming up than you know. AI will not Kill the music industry ...today... or tomorrow! ...or the day after that and after that and after...💯

[@milansimko3501]

I don't see dangerous when there will be endless AI combinations of famous musicans. People will ignore it. I see dangerous in songwriting of music. Problems with royalities etc. I am afftaid the day when there will be chart of 20 best hits and all will be composed by AI. Interpreted by real artist. And all 20 in songwriting quality of Enjoy The Silence. Will it be good or bad? I really hope that is not possible in future.

[@EBMZEQUENZER]

Now Sir : can AI be used to expedite the elopement of AI : where does it end?