Venerating Sacred Images | Jonathan Pageau

[@daveloriw]

It was a wonderful experience to attend this conference, especially as an evangelical.

[@veronicab15]

Jonathan's energy is pure joy. Always makes me feel better to listen to this man.

[@RootsofOrthodoxy]

Love this!

[@ThatJetstream]

This should be at least an hour long

[@adelinacod5683]

Such a wonderful Interview! Greetings from a romanian orthodox Family!💖

[@KarlAlbertNg]

My first ever religious conference, and I ate every word of it. (except the moments I dozed off after 1-hour trip to Riverside and the long conference day!)

[@internetgoon234]

amazing. wonderful. thanks father josiah

[@nateg6525]

Greetings from the Eastern Catholic Church 📿

[@ElonMuskrat-my8jy]

Uniatism is heresy and delusion.

[@georgepapatheofilou6118]

I was once anti icons of old but then I became aware of the history lesson involved. Take St George as example , disobey draconian laws and paid the price via sacrifice for his belief of not persecution of innocence. That's freed from desire and not a lier but a believer in truth and justice. Glory is always to most high and most grateful for the gift of Yeshua. Christos Anesti, Hallelujah. Kyrie Eleison Me. ❤❤❤

[@micahwatz1148]

Love you guys, i listen regularly. And i agree yes God was incarnated. But as a man, not as a statue or a painting.

[@mement0_m0ri]

I want to know who came up with the little flute tune for Patristic Nectar.

[@nicolasballadone7044]

Leviticus 26 "Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God." Leviticus 19:4 "Turn ye not unto idols, nor make to yourselves molten gods: I am the LORD your God." Psalm 97:7 "Confounded be all they that serve graven images, that boast themselves of idols: worship him, all ye gods." Psalm 115:4 "Not unto us, O LORD, not unto us, but unto thy name give glory, for thy mercy, and for thy truth's sake. 2 Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God? 3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased. 4 Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands. 5 They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not: 6 They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not: 7 They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat. 8 They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them. 9 O Israel, trust thou in the LORD: he is their help and their shield. 10 O house of Aaron, trust in the LORD: he is their help and their shield. 11 Ye that fear the LORD, trust in the LORD: he is their help and their shield. 12 The LORD hath been mindful of us: he will bless us; he will bless the house of Israel; he will bless the house of Aaron. 13 He will bless them that fear the LORD, both small and great. 14 The LORD shall increase you more and more, you and your children. 15 Ye are blessed of the LORD which made heaven and earth. 16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men. 17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. 18 But we will bless the LORD from this time forth and for evermore. Praise the LORD." Psalm 135 "15 The idols of the heathen are silver and gold, the work of men's hands. 16 They have mouths, but they speak not; eyes have they, but they see not; 17 They have ears, but they hear not; neither is there any breath in their mouths. 18 They that make them are like unto them: so is every one that trusteth in them. 19 Bless the LORD, O house of Israel: bless the LORD, O house of Aaron: 20 Bless the LORD, O house of Levi: ye that fear the LORD, bless the LORD. 21 Blessed be the LORD out of Zion, which dwelleth at Jerusalem. Praise ye the LORD." Isaiah 2 "8 Their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made: 9 And the mean man boweth down, and the great man humbleth himself: therefore forgive them not. 10 Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty. 11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day." Isaiah 45 "15 Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour. 16 They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, all of them: they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols. 17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end." Jeremiah 50:38 "A drought is upon her waters; and they shall be dried up: for it is the land of graven images, and they are mad upon their idols." Ezekiel 6 "13 Then shall ye know that I am the LORD, when their slain men shall be among their idols round about their altars, upon every high hill, in all the tops of the mountains, and under every green tree, and under every thick oak, the place where they did offer sweet savour to all their idols." Ezekiel 8 "1 ¶ And it came to pass in the sixth year, in the sixth month, in the fifth day of the month, as I sat in mine house, and the elders of Judah sat before me, that the hand of the Lord GOD fell there upon me. 2 Then I beheld, and lo a likeness as the appearance of fire: from the appearance of his loins even downward, fire; and from his loins even upward, as the appearance of brightness, as the colour of amber. 3 And he put forth the form of an hand, and took me by a lock of mine head; and the spirit lifted me up between the earth and the heaven, and brought me in the visions of God to Jerusalem, to the door of the inner gate that looketh toward the north; where was the seat of the image of jealousy, which provoketh to jealousy. 4 And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel was there, according to the vision that I saw in the plain. 5 ¶ Then said he unto me, Son of man, lift up thine eyes now the way toward the north. So I lifted up mine eyes the way toward the north, and behold northward at the gate of the altar this image of jealousy in the entry. 6 ¶ He said furthermore unto me, Son of man, seest thou what they do? even the great abominations that the house of Israel committeth here, that I should go far off from my sanctuary? but turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations. 7 And he brought me to the door of the court; and when I looked, behold a hole in the wall. 8 Then said he unto me, Son of man, dig now in the wall: and when I had digged in the wall, behold a door. 9 ¶ And he said unto me, Go in, and behold the wicked abominations that they do here. 10 So I went in and saw; and behold every form of creeping things, and abominable beasts, and all the idols of the house of Israel, pourtrayed upon the wall round about. 11 And there stood before them seventy men of the ancients of the house of Israel, and in the midst of them stood Jaazaniah the son of Shaphan, with every man his censer in his hand; and a thick cloud of incense went up. 12 Then said he unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen what the ancients of the house of Israel do in the dark, every man in the chambers of his imagery? for they say, The LORD seeth us not; the LORD hath forsaken the earth. 13 ¶ He said also unto me, Turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations that they do. 14 Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the LORD'S house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz. 15 ¶ Then said he unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations than these. 16 And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD'S house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east. 17 ¶ Then he said unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? Is it a light thing to the house of Judah that they commit the abominations which they commit here? for they have filled the land with violence, and have returned to provoke me to anger: and, lo, they put the branch to their nose. 18 Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them." The Lord God is The Living God, In Him we have our very existence. He is jealous! He demands direct adoration. We shall bow down to NO IMAGE nor even MAKE images in the likeness of God. You quote the pagans when you say "Our veneration is not to the thing made by hands, but to what it represents" Nehushtan! Exodus 20 "1 ¶ And God spake all these words, saying, 2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee ANY GRAVEN IMAGE, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou SHALT NOT BOW DOWN thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments." Repent!

[@cabellero1120]

The Army barracks are full of photos of service men and women who died in the line of duty and combat.. Are They being worshipped?...No. People honor their memory, their courage and sacrifice... In the Church, We honor the courage and memory of the Saints..." Heroes For Christ" and His Church!

[@johnsambo9379]

Very different. People pray to icons and light candles as if these images can help save them. Only Jesus saves.

[@HerogateEXE86]

Only different are The Saints are alive in Christ there are heroes for God that we ask them to Pray for us for The power of God work through them God love to hear the prayers of righteous men

[@cabellero1120]

Salvation is a beginning, not an end result unto itself.. Orthodox Christians have a different understanding of Salvation than Protestants.

[@nathandaniels4823]

@@johnsambo9379 That’s not what the Church teaches and that’s not what we believe. Are you merely misinformed, or are you being intentionally dishonest? Standing before an icon of a Holy person, we ask the person to pray to God for us, because according to scripture, we know God is not the God of the dead, but the living. We know only Christ saves.

[@wubuck79]

@@nathandaniels4823genuine question: doesn’t the Bible forbid trying to communicate with those who are deceased? And doesn’t it mention something about them not being aware of our doings here? And wouldn’t Christ be sufficient as intercessor? These are questions, not a criticism. I’m looking into Protestant/Restoration vs Orthodox theology and both make convincing claims on different points.

[@stuckmannen3876]

Any more clips with pageau on the way? 😊

[@synthesaurus]

There was an oil stain on a window pane that looked like a praying woman. A pilgrimage ensued. Then local priests took that pane to a church for more “official” veneration .

[@protestanttoorthodox3625]

❤☦️🇺🇸

[@WhatTheBoot]

Yes, landed the first view

[@mourningdovefilms]

What a gift!

[@vladimirmarkovic8578]

See the film... CONQUEROR of the death!!!

[@williampeters9838]

I am fully opposed to iconoclasm because of the points mentioned by Jonathan and chapters like Romans 14. However I genuinely don’t understand how it is not in conflict with Romans 14 to say that it is NECESSARY to venerate icons or that those who fully respect those who venerate icons but personally would abstain are in error.

[@እንታይኮንይህሉ]

Why orthodox churches not popular in America?

[@carolinascotsman]

If you kiss a picture of your wife, it doesn’t mean you’re having an affair. It means that you love her and miss her.

[@synthesaurus]

What if you start believing that particular picture “answers” your prayers and you start bringing jewelry to it as gifts?

[@carolinascotsman]

@@synthesaurus I would say if the individual misunderstands the purpose of the icon holding magical powers as an inanimate object then they might need some church authority on the subject. I would suspect most adherents understand the icon is focusing their prayers and faith to the ones they represent. You have a valid point certainly or at least a word of caution. I say this not being an authority.

[@carolinascotsman]

@@synthesaurus I see the amazing culture and art surrounding Orthodoxy very much venerating Christ and the Saints. No idolatry here but my Presbyterian ancestors wouldn’t have shared my opinion. Their’s was an aggressive reaction to their grievances with the Catholic Church.

[@synthesaurus]

@@carolinascotsman to north Americans it understandably all seems so deep and exotic. But if you had spent just some time living in some of the traditionally ortho countries you would quickly notice how spiritually bankrupt they are. I’d dare to claim even more so than the US. I sincerely feel sorry for all the Americans who moved to Russia from the “corrupt west”.

[@synthesaurus]

@@carolinascotsman The reason why I prefer n.american orthodox churches is the fact that most converts have that “american protestant” mind set. I know it sounds paradoxical. Seeing american orthodox churches filled with the new believers whose faces reflect the reality of the Living Christ gives me hope. It is virtually impossible to find in the “old countries” these new believers so idealize.

[@protestanttoorthodox3625]

Amin

[@luxar.1998]

💝☦️🇷🇸🇷🇺💯✅

[@jessenagy9302]

We are forbidden to use the Lord’s name in vain because words have meanings and represent/symbolize that which it is used. Such is true of any other symbols such as images; and the same truth applies.

[@fun_at_work]

Idk. The only place we "take a name" is in adoption or marriage. "taking the Lord's Name in vain" seems like treating covenant with him as secondary, incidental, or without deep reverence and love.

[@tjkhan4541]

With real respect, Pageau lifts some OT passages and interprets them to support his point, but neglects many explicit commands that undermine it. No Jewish follower of Yahweh would recognize icon veneration (as practiced today) as valid or pleasing to Yahweh. This discussion overlooks the textual uses and details for Hebrew and Greek words like worship, honor, etc. (I know it’s just a short clip though.) I don’t think, about 5:40, that Pageau’s perspective on how Christ flips or readjusts the second commandment is valid. Yes, the incarnation changes many things, and the new covenant is fundamentally new, but it does not follow that icon veneration is one of those changes.

[@munkee59]

If I might suggest working on your ecclesiology first. Find the "Pillar and ground of Truth" that Christ promised "the gates of hell will not prevail against." Jesus left us His body, the Church which He entrusted to faithful men, who in turn entrusted it to faithful men, He did not found a Bible study. Otherwise, you're just lost, clinging to your reason, and latching onto whatever opinion makes the most sense to you and your own personal judgement. The early defenders of the true faith (E.G. St. Athanasius, St. Irenaeus, the Holy Fathers of Nicaea, St. Justin Martyr) countered the heretics, who based their arguments on solely Holy Scripture and their own reasoning and rhetoric, with the Apostolic teaching and tradition that enlightens the meaning of the text. Why would one trust the Holy Scriptures that these men passed down to us, but not their teaching and understanding of the faith? It's also helpful to keep in mind that the Eastern Orthodox Church never experienced the upheaval of a reformation. If you're so minded, I highly recommend Fr. Stephen DeYoung's book, The Religion of the Apostles. But, further, actually visit an Orthodox parish a couple of times, it has to be experienced outside of the written word.

[@tjkhan4541]

@@munkee59 hey friend, I appreciate your insights. I can’t promise I’ll read Fr DeYoung’s book, but I will look it up. Can I ask an honest question: because Irenaeus believed that Jesus was around 50 years old when he died. He thought the very youngest Christ could be was 44 years old at the crucifixion, and he got historical dates wrong. Do you accept his position on that topic, or is there a consensus position among Orthodox about Irenaeus’s view here? (I am assuming you are Orthodox, so please forgive/correct me if I’m wrong.) Grace to you, friend.

[@munkee59]

The church doesn’t take the pious opinions of the saints as infallible, even the Apostles were mistaken from time to time. Look at St. Peter’s initial attitude toward the gentile converts, and the subsequent council to correct the Church. No, we look to the areas where the Fathers and saints speak with one voice in unison. This is the Holy Spirit, guiding the Church, and protecting the Apostolic deposit. I hope you would visit one of our parishes at some point. My first visit and I didn’t like it at all, but with time (years), God’s patient guidance, and study, I was able to see. I don’t know if there’s a way to DM on KZbin, but I’d be happy to answer any questions you might have.

[@tjkhan4541]

@@munkee59 sorry friend, I forgot to respond to you: I appreciate your kind words and your insights. May I ask, what specific kind of Eastern Orthodox church do you recommend? I live in a metro area and there seem to be quite a few different kinds.

[@munkee59]

Antiochian, OCA, ROCOR, would be my preferences, but Greek, Romanian, etc. would all be fine as well.

[@AlexStock187]

Wait. Is Father Josiah okay with "tens of thousands of years old"? Maybe mistakenly, I was under the impression he was a Young-Earther.

[@eteixeira3532]

The name of God is not a separate thing from God, this argument is just absurd. It is not a "mean", like the nature, the trees or the skies. When the Angel of the Lord was guiding the people out of Egypt, God said the angel HAS HIS NAME IN HIM, it is GOD HIMSELF guiding his people. Not even the fathers would abide for such an argument and comparison.

[@pipefitter82]

I beg to differ: “And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you” (Exodus 3:7-8, 13-14)

[@pontification7891]

@@pipefitter82 - He is actually correct, brother. Fr. Steven DeYoung makes the case (ref. The Religion of the Apostles) that the 'Name of God' is actually a stand-in for what we call the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament. Also, if I'm not mistaken, in the Hesychastic Tradition there's direct and indirect implication that the Name of God is God Himself, but I should look up the details.

[@pipefitter82]

@@pontification7891 I stand corrected. I completely miss understood and read into the original statement falsely. forgive my ignorance and presumptuousness @eteixeira3532. thank you @pontification7891 for taking a stand for truth and reason.

[@vladislavstezhko1864]

The thought of Jonathan Pageu is essentially justifying the Orthodoxy from the postmodern (or post-metaphysical) phychological point of view or offering 'Orthodox teachings' with such an understanding. If you listen to his videos, he basically says about how something in the Holy Scripture is "true from the symbolic point of view" and it symbolises this and that. This is unorthodox, because Orthodoxy believes the Holy Scripture to be litarally true. Always in his videos: "what is really meant is...this and that", and then he talks about the symbolism. He offers a symbolic interpretation on his own which is not in the Holy fathers. This is based on the assumption that the teachings of the Holy fathers is not enough; that he has come to some deeper, more profound understanding This kind of symbolosm is not at all how the Holy fathers understood the Holy Scripture. There is no need to accept the Scripture as true with Jonathan Pageau's way of reading it. This is not the faith.

[@lazzledazzle7827]

Brother, this is a false dichotomy. Symbolism is where reality and meaning converge, it is not the same as allegory. Pageau does believe the events did take place, he just happens to also believe that many of these events reflect higher spiritual truths, like how human beings reflect and image the higher truth of God. Pageau has discussed this at length. Please be careful before rushing to condemn.

[@lenk172]

It's funny because atheists have the opposite criticism and are surprised to find out he actually believes things in the Bible happened, and that they're not *only* symbolic/metaphorical.

[@taylornovia8911]

You have issues with parables?

[@jacoblloyd-o8d]

You don’t understand post-modernism or what Jonathan Pageau is saying

[@MagnificentFiend]

Read St Gregory of Nyssa's _Life of Moses_ and re-evaluate your position.