Veritas PMV11 vs Lie Nielsen A2 Chisels (Ashley Iles O1) - Review and Comparison

[@tylerbloom8889]

Great video Jamie. However i do have to ask how new where the veritas and lie nielsen chisels for this test. The edge can be very brittle from heat treatment right at the tip and chipping much more common until you sharpen a few times. I have had pmv11 plane blades ground at 25 degrees that would chip easily until they were sharpened a half dozen times getting past brittle steel at the tip of the chisel. Then everything was much better. Anyways keep the videos coming.

[@BatCaveCreations]

I thought about that too but both were used, LN looked more used than the PMV11. The 1" one I compared was brand new/never used. But that could be the issue with the 1/2 one. Does it say that on their website? Or should it just be comon tool knowledge I don't know hahahha

[@tylerbloom8889]

@BatCaveCreations I don't think either. I believe it to be the case but not something widely advertised. I recall seeing a few paul sellers videos on the subject and then witnessed it myself. I have seen nothing but complete superior performance from pmv11 I would be blown away if the steel is not suitable for chisel. Slamming shooting plane into 8/4 maple endgrain and no issues for me once I did a half dozen sharpening to get past brittle zone.

[@BatCaveCreations]

That's why I was so surprised it happened!! The 1" was amazing tho! Unfortunately not mine borrowed that one lol 1/2 is mine ill try grinding it back and see how it goes! Deff keeping it either way. I love PMV11 in my planes. Even the non veritas I get pmv for

[@SaintFredrocks]

Doesn't Veritas put a micro-bevel on the PM-V11 chisels? If they do, maybe that is why they stop chipping: once you get past the micro-bevel.

[@BatCaveCreations]

@SaintFredrocks they do! That is very possible! Thank you!

[@BarryCallow-y1w]

I have all the spoke shaves from Lee Valley and I love them. I only have to strop them for sharpening. Thanks for the video and I will probably check the others to as I have wrist issues.

[@robertgarvey5744]

I got into woodworking during the pandemic and picked up two Lie Nielsen chisels when they were still only $50. Such a good price, so mad at myself at not buying more then. They really are the most comfortable in the hand

[@BatCaveCreations]

Dang! I didn't know they were thay cheep before! I deff wouldn't have bought some then. Was using narex (not rickters) at the time lol

[@1deerndingo]

The fine bevel edge is useful for cleaning out the bottom of the tale for hand cut dovetales. But you can get away with probably only need one very fine edge.

[@BatCaveCreations]

Thank you! How do you feel about dedicated dovetail chisels?

[@1deerndingo]

@@BatCaveCreations Bevel edge ground chisels are very useful for creating dovetales and other acute angle work. Using more squared edge chisels is prone to bruise the sides of the tale when chopping out the waste at the base. Grinding the edge of the chisel is an expensive process. Hence, the more ground they are, typically the more expensive the chisel. I use an old set of Marples red and yellow handles bevel edge chisels. They are ground to a 1/32" to 1/64" edge. They were made back in the day when people hand cut dovetales.

[@BatCaveCreations]

this is awesome! I am sorry I missed it. YT doesn't always let me know when there are replies lol

[@bobnicholas1088]

Comfort is the key factor in your video. Holding an edge and ease of sharpening is subjective. Having PMV11 plane blades sharpening is a chore.

[@BatCaveCreations]

I agree! Comfort is BIG when it comes to chisels (another alot of tools). Pmv11 deff takes longer. Even on micro bevels I gotta hone longer than the other metals. I'm still amazed the O1 did so well tbh lol

[@rsv-code7004]

Totally agree! I got a PMV11 plane blade to try and its a nightmare to sharpen. Lie Nielsen A2 seems a little better but still difficult. I'm sticking with O1 for sure! If sharpening is so painful, you delay doing it and your work suffers. I'd rather sharpen often if it's quick and painless and I can get a razor sharp edge easily. I have to wonder how the people using these steels are doing their sharpening.

[@brhino1017]

It almost made me cry watching you cut up that gorgeous piece of Tiger Maple. All the cause for science. Another great vid Jamie. Hope your flair up gets better.

[@BatCaveCreations]

Haha oh trust me I deff wouldn't do it if it was tigar maple! Rest assured this is some crazy curly oak! Never seen oak with grain like this and I have a TON of it. It tares out in chunks with a 55 frog. And sometimes the scraper plane causes tare out. How? NO CLUE. It's the only reason I have a drum sander. And it was kinda therapeutic to bash a chisel into it with how much stress it's caused me hahhaha And thank you!!! :D

[@brhino1017]

@@BatCaveCreations One more question...In your experience do you find the 55° better then the 45° frog. Is it worth the additional money? (I'm assuming we're talking LN here)

[@BatCaveCreations]

I actually sold all my LN bench planes and switched to Veritas Custom (I started Veritas Standard. Didn't like them, went LN, then tried a custom and switched to them lol) The 55 is amazing tbh. I thought it would be alot tougher to push but it's not. I prefer the 55 over the 45 now. I keep switching the frog between my 5 and my 4 cus I only have 1- 55 frog for now. I have a green Clifton (45 obv) and it's fun to use but I reach for it alot less now thay I have the 55 frog. Don't have to worry about grain direction like at all when you have it sharp and tuned correctly. If you have LN, I can speak to the 55 frog for them. Never tried it when I had them. Last note. Idk why but I like the thin shavings of the 55 more. Now if I'm trying to hog material (dont care about tare out), I prefer the 45. Hope that helps!

[@anthonyseiver7000]

The hoarder in me says keep all of them. You can never have too many chisels. On Lie-Neilsen you could ask one of thosw wood turning types to make you a custom handle to suit your hands

[@BatCaveCreations]

Ahhaha deff a hoarder statement and I already have 3 sets! Hahah True I could have a bigger set made and just swallow the handles when I need too. Thats a great idea!

[@rogerboucher1913]

Are the prices showed in CA$ ? What if you cut down the handle on the Veritas to make it more ergonomic?

[@BatCaveCreations]

Those are USD sorry! Deff could reshape the Veritas to make it my own! Great idea!

[@wolfpackpete6408]

Regarding the edge retention... it's said that the leading edge of chisels sometimes isn't tempered quite right from the factory because that tiny part is too thin. I'm not an experienced woodworker. Can anyone say if this improves with time as the chisel is ground back through sharpening? Would be great to see another comparison video with Blue Spruce and Cosman IBC chisels in the mix.

[@BatCaveCreations]

That's what I'm learning. You'd think for chisels this expensive they would grind past that for you if they know it's likely going to chip like that :/ I would love to do a comparison with those. They are outta my price range but may eventually try to find someone who has em and ask to borrow

[@wolfpackpete6408]

@BatCaveCreations The problem is that it takes time to do and it's a slight waste of material. Something woodworkers could consider doing, is to only use their brand new chisels for softer woods until they are satisfied that leading edge is gone. At the factory they would have to grind or cut it back very slowly and carefully or they'd overheat and further mess up the tempering achieved. For the Blue Spruce and Cosman IBC review. Instead of buying the full sets, you could get just individual chisels in the size you use most often. There's no need to have the full set. A lot of the sizes won't get used nearly enough to justify buying. But in the size used most regularly, doing the most work... it's absolutely worth the best you can possibly get.

[@BatCaveCreations]

@wolfpackpete6408 valid point about the factory doing it vs us doing it. I wonder why this isn't advertised at purchase, I would have ground it back before testing. No I deff wouldn't buy a full set but individual is still outta my range for a video. KZbin income isn't much right now to justify buying them for a video. You know? Haha one day tho for sure cus I've had a few request this comparison

[@wolfpackpete6408]

@BatCaveCreations I don't know if the leading edge is a problem with every brand new chisel or if it's just a percentage of them that weren't quite perfect. And it struck me that for softer woods, a lot of workers grind the chisel down to a more acute angle... 20°, I've even heard 17° for a sharper edge because soft woods can squash or crush before they'll cut. So either way some of the tip of the chisel would be lost from new. Plus with expensive chisels with a very good metal... they're probably best used for hardwoods anyway. But this is all down to what the individual worker wants to do with his/her tools.

[@BatCaveCreations]

All valid points!! Thank you!!

[@jacobborkowski1872]

I really like my Ashley Illes round back chisels, no idea what kind of steel they are though.

[@BatCaveCreations]

I want a set of those. Do you like them for dovetails?

[@jacobborkowski1872]

@@BatCaveCreations I use them mostly for dovetails and other delicate paring tasks. Though I do whack them with a mallet now and then.

[@TWC6724]

I’ve been wanting a set of the Ashley’s for a while now.

[@finniunker860]

Thanks for yet another great video. LN: You should be able to loosen the handle by just tapping it once or twice against your bench.

[@BatCaveCreations]

Thank you!!! And man I had to hit it hard I was worried I was gonna break the handle hahahah

[@finniunker860]

@@BatCaveCreations I'm glad to hear you managed! I have a LN chisel which is at the other end of the spectrum, just a fraction too loose so that it often falls out. Better to be a bit too tight, I think.

[@BatCaveCreations]

I agree! Deff wouldn't want the handle falling out! BEAT it into thw hardest wood you have and ull be good hahahha

[@finniunker860]

@@BatCaveCreations I tried it once, and wanted to try it again, and then I thought, a smart move right now would be to call an ambulance first so it can be on the way as I try really, really hard, and then I thought, hm, let's first turn up the heat because, dude, wood expands, and then it got pretty intense and then the neighbor came over and asked me to please turn the music down.

[@BatCaveCreations]

Hahahaha dude that is halarious! Thank you! I needed this laugh!

[@GeeDeeBird]

Thanks for sharing. As a matter of curiosity, where do you buy and sell used tools?

[@BatCaveCreations]

I use the Can I Have It Vintage Tool Auctions and Sales Facebook group. (The one with 16k members not the one someone tried to copy with like 100 members lol)

[@niels5145]

i have both and they are both great. the only thing i have had was some problem with the first factory ground bevel, that was pretty brittle. But after a few sharpenings that completely disapeared

[@BatCaveCreations]

Ooh which one was that on?!

[@Mikey__R]

This is why I've two sets of Iles chisels, bevel edges for delicate work and firmer chisels for beating on.

[@BatCaveCreations]

Yes! I also want to get a dovetail set of theirs!

[@Mikey__R]

@@BatCaveCreations my smallest three chisels are from the dovetail range. The rest of the bench chisels are regular bevel edged. Then I've got three or four firmer chisels in widths to match my router bits. There's no real need to have duplicate sizes in dovetail and bevel edged, they're really quite similar. Maybe there's an advantage in getting a wider dovetail chisel for paring though? They are more flexible than the bevel edge chisels.

[@BatCaveCreations]

Love this idea! You can have a "full set" of diff styles and save a ton of money vs full sets of all styles! I am an odd bird that doesn't like chisels for pairing, tho I have tired it since getting better quality chisels. I started with narex brown handles and they made me hate chisels haha I'll gave to try it again

[@fredpierce6097]

I have a complete set of Lie Nielsen’s which I like. The smaller handle allows that closer fuss work you alluded to easier than a longer handle would. The only thing I don’t like is that you must watch out that those socket handles don’t pop off sending your blade crashing to the floor (concrete in my case). Even just having up, they can let go due to seasonal or weather changes. Ask me how I know!

[@BatCaveCreations]

Hahhaha oh geeze! Ya that wouldn't be good! And deff a good point to keep in mind. I just got my LNs yesterday, sold the AIs. Imma keep the handles lose so I can awap the small ones out with a bigger handle when needed so I forsee me dropping a few not thinking hahah :(

[@cameronpayne5521]

I'm curious about the IBC or Blue spruce chisels compared to those. Future vid...

[@BatCaveCreations]

Would love too! I've never had a chance to try them but one day and you know it will deff be a video haha

[@darrenmacmartin9392]

Hi Jamie, thank you for all the effort put into your channel. Have you ever had a chance to try any Japanese chisels?

[@BatCaveCreations]

Hey! I had one took a few shavings LOVED it but didn't want to invest in a set at the time but one day I deff want a set of japaneese And thank you! I have a blast making these!

[@darrenmacmartin9392]

@@BatCaveCreations There are a couple of great sellers here in the states that carry really good quality chisels made by blacksmiths in Japan; HIDA Tools sells Fujihiro and Suzuki Tools sells Ouchi.

[@BatCaveCreations]

Thank you!! I'm going to save those for when I'm ready!

[@robjohnston8083]

I have some LN chisels and some Japanese, the Japanese get sharper and keep an edge longer but the LN are much nicer to work with. Important to have some beater chisels too I reckon, some narexs (standard not Richter) in my case, very soft steel in these.

[@BatCaveCreations]

Thank you! What makes the LN nicer to work with over the japaneese?

[@robjohnston8083]

@@BatCaveCreations I often find myself holding chisels low down on the blade for control, the Japanese are extremely sharp on the sides and need to be stuck very precisely with the Genno for good results, the weighting of the LN seems to lend them to this sort of work. That being said I still use all of them depending on the situation.

[@BatCaveCreations]

@robjohnston8083 thank you! I've been debating on trying a good set of Japanese chisels. Had cheep ones before and they were... eh ... hahaha

[@ronhau1542]

Hey I love me some LN too!

[@thedieiscast9729]

Ashley Isles chisels are guaranteed for the lifetime of the user. They feel absolutely great and are essentially hand finished

[@TWC6724]

Are they? I can’t seem to find where they say that. I’m interested in getting the MK2’s

[@r.parker1933]

The MK2 ones I've seen have a thinner side bevel. FWIW

[@red58impala]

I can't justify buying any more chisels, but I do appreciate a good review. 🙂 Tools For Working Wood sells the Ashley Iles chisels. I believe the 1/2" like yours, MK2, is $44+shipping.

[@BatCaveCreations]

Haha same! I sold the LN can't justify something that $ right now. Esp when the Ashley's did so well. Eventually I'd like diff models of theirs too!

[@michaelthompson5875]

TFWW also sells Ashley Iles "American Pattern Bevel Edge" chisels (yeah it's a mouthful). It looks like they're similar to the Mk II chisels but a decent bit shorter. And, rounded off, all sizes from 1/8" to 1" are between $40-50 without shipping. I just recently purchased a PMV11 chisel at the seconds sale and its a very nice tool, much nicer than my Narex ones. But after your and Matt Cremona's comments on the Ashley Iles, I may buy one and try it (even on sale they're expensive chisels). Thank you sir, nice video!

[@tonychinnery]

What you don't mention is that the backs of the Veritas chisels (like the plane blades) are incredibly flat (I think using spark erosion). All other chisels I have seen (including Lie Nielson) have machine marks on the backs, meaning a lot of time honing the backs on a flat stone if you want the very best edge.

[@BatCaveCreations]

true, I couldn't show that in a fair way because all of these were purchased used :(

[@randygill953]

You should get the $19.99 bench chisels at LIDL and see how they stack up.

[@BatCaveCreations]

Oooh I like that idea!!

[@ikust007]

Too hard of steel isn’t the best idea … so LN might be amazing

[@ikust007]

AI: i love them but don’t understand why not sockets for mortise chisels. They are made to be banged on… And I did split the handle very easily . They sent me another one but still…

[@BatCaveCreations]

Aw dang hopefully mine don't split! Amazing that much wood can split haha

[@ikust007]

@@BatCaveCreations but it is a mortise chisels . Not the same beast

[@BatCaveCreations]

Ah ok missed that sorry! Long day hahaa

[@rollingstone3017]

Not sure the value of such subjective reviews. To each their own I suppose. I’ve found the pm-v11s to be simply fantastic. Stunning how sharp they get and how long the edges hold.

[@chrischurch3020]

I owned 1/2" and 3/4" PMV11 chisels and they chipped significantly in white oak.

[@BatCaveCreations]

Dang was that even after grinding past the factory bevel?

[@chrischurch3020]

@@BatCaveCreations yes, I removed 1/16" or so by wet grinding and sharpening. Sent the chisels back.

[@BatCaveCreations]

Ah ok, dang I was kinda hoping I got a dud lol

[@lincolndickerson1293]

… 🤔 … so you were working a pretty hard piece of wood and your chisel got 1 chip in it. Its not like it looked like jack-o-lantern. With the Fibromyalga (spelling ?) you will need different size tools on different days. My X has that, its pretty rough some days. Realitistically the side edges, like the back need to be something you can reference off of when needed. I appreciate this review, thanks.

[@BatCaveCreations]

you're correct! it was more about comfort for me because really... who is gonna chisel like that? hahaha you are also correct, some days I wouldn't be able to hold the LN chisel. someone did recommend making a bigger set of handles for the LN so when I need them I can just switch them out. loved that idea. Thank you also! I am glad you enjoyed it!

[@lincolndickerson1293]

@@BatCaveCreations Handles based on the needs of the day is a great solution.

[@ikust007]

AI: how can there be such a difference in price ?? Not made in Uk?

[@BatCaveCreations]

Maybe could also be cheeper metal type and not machiened as well? Idk tho but it's drastic haha

[@jessenunes7602]

100$ a chisel 😮 I'll never get rid of my narex Richter set .

[@BatCaveCreations]

Rickters ROCK! They stood their ground against pmv11 way better than I thought they would. I did a video on that too haha

[@ChadHyett]

He's finally come to his senses, hahaha.

[@BatCaveCreations]

Hahahah on some things ;)

[@bluetunatiger1]

The AI looks like a paring chisel, not a bench chisel

[@BatCaveCreations]

It deff does but its about the length of the Veritas, minus the handle lol I should have measured it :(

[@ikust007]

AI: i think it’s tang. My mortise chisels from them are like that

[@BatCaveCreations]

Thank you!!!

[@derekcohen1000]

Do you mention bevel angles? It does not appear to be so, or I missed these. That makes a huge difference when examining edge longevity. From the look of your chisel bevels, the LN primary bevel was 30 degrees plus a secondary bevel, as was then AI. The Veritas comes with a 25 degree primary bevel and does not appear to have a secondary bevel (in fact, the back of the chisel does not look honed at the bevel end). If so, your results are meaningless.

[@BatCaveCreations]

Lol all had a 30* micro. Veritas reccomends not honing the back because the gray is a rust preventative. I did the same thing with the 1" and it didn't take damage. Other commentary have stated that with pmv you gotta grind past the factory bevel because they are brittle new. 1" was brand new outta the box, the 1/2 I bought used. So idk how new it is. My opinion on the matter was more around comfort because I mentioned a few times that the 1" didn't take damage. Thank you for checking tho because I'm not sure if I mentioned angles or not. Rookie mistake :)

[@ikust007]

The AI looks like a wood Marples, imho

[@BatCaveCreations]

It kinda does! Good eye!

[@garyvaiskauckas8463]

Great review! I prefer socket chisels. Easy to replace a broken handle or to change out handle with the LN Long Chisel Handle for paring or to make a shop made handle. This video outlines the advantages: kzbin.info/www/bejne/h5rClqeHhZuCf9k To remove socket handle: Hold metal chisel in hand (avoid sharp blade) and rap side of wooden handle on the bench. To insert chisel in the socket hold metal round flared part of socket (avoiding sharp blade) and rap handle on the bench.. Always hold socket chisel by metal part. Better for wooden handle to hit shop floor than a freshly sharpened edge. Never strike a wooden socket chisel handle with a steel hammer. Note: LN machined eased edge is to prevent user from getting cut on very sharp edge while stiil allowing access to tight corners.

[@BatCaveCreations]

I deff like that advantage for socket chisels! Plus, it is way easier to make your own handles if you need to modify them or make new ones for whatever reason! Thank you!!

[@ikust007]

Stay unbiased.

[@BatCaveCreations]

Deff my goal! :D