Very Weird Parasitic Drain!

Tracking down the cause of this battery drain using all the testing methods lol...
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[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Love a good Parasitic Drain case study 😁

[@mattcat231]

except on vehicles that don't like to go to sleep, lol

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

That radio is weird... So it needs an ignition feed AND PCI data to wake up? Crazy!!

[@autodiagyt]

@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics idk but it sure acts like it might or something. I have no other explanation for how it was coming on and off sticking the key in and out when I never lost acc

[@HouseCallAutoRepair]

Just like my Tacoma... The key comes out in any position. Killed my battery more than once. Gotta MAKE SURE it's actually OFF.

[@fluffyblue4006]

Old cars just drained the battery when the lights were left on. Then, the buzzer appeared, connected via a diode between IGN and the headlight power. This buzzer or beeper was later connected to or integrated in the BCM, so your car could audibly warn you for all kinds of things. The beep evolved into a chime. Soon after that, dark forces in the car industry decided that the chime sound should have a more 'luxurious' ring to it, so it was decided to keep the amplifier of the car radio awake while the rest of the radio appears to be off, so the chime could be sounded via the car speakers. The amp is to be switched off only when the BCM was pretty sure no more chiming would be needed, because amplifier circuits need half a second to start and we cannot sound only the second half of a chime sound, of course. Stereo effect and loudness or frequency could be used to indicate the direction and direction of an obstacle detected by the parking radar. All in all, a very good idea to use the radio amplifier for chiming. ...inadvertently creating yet another convoluted way in which a parasitic drain can occur when the shutdown sequence somehow gets messed up by whatever. There's cut wires and non-factory-looking tape under that steering column. I think, the ignition lock broke. (key can be taken out in all positions). Some hack mechanic or diy-savvy owner changed something in the wiring so that it would not be so bad if the key would be pulled out in the 'acc' position, so the lock does not have to be changed, inadvertently creating the situation whereby the radio's amp is kept alive until the battery is dead. Maybe the BCM's main feed is wired into the IGN circuit, so it won't have the power to tell the radio's amp to switch off. I think that switched power for the radio is only controlling the music part of the radio. It won't switch off the amp if the BCM told it to wake up earlier.

[@JohnDoesGarage]

Replacing known bad parts is a prudent move. Since your findings weren't what you would normally expect, you need to rule out the possibility of the bad parts skewing your further test data. Perfect call, as usual.

[@robertmedina6875]

I would love to learn more about EPROM and board level electronics! Thank you Jake for putting all this hard work in time in to your videos. We really appreciate it very much!😊

[@inothome]

Interesting one for sure, damn worn out switch. Good work on tracking it down. FYI with DC amp clamps that use Hall Effect (I think all), you have to zero them in the exact angle, plane, azimuth, roll, yaw etc.... to actually zero them. Unlike zeroing an AC clamp which just takes out the meter noise. Check it out, zero it in DC, then rotate it 90 degrees, twist it, roll it etc and watch the values change as it's measuring the surrounding magnetic field. Usually not that important when measuring full amps, but very sensitive when doing mA. And like everyone else already said, PTC are self resetting fuses, poly fuses etc... Opposite of NTC resistors / current limiters. Also, to look for a warmer fuse, as long as everything is the same temp and no sun or anything else adding heat, narrow the scale on the IR cam to get better resolution. Looking for a slight temp change when it's auto-ranged to cover 35f to 90f isn't too helpful. If that camera has a manual scale setting, which it probably does.

[@markwatson9816]

YEAH!!! @2:48 someone who uses the meter's Range function to stop the irritating auto-ranging when it's not needed. Thanks a bunch for that, guy!

[@artursmihelsons415]

Nice! 👍😉 This video proves why rechecking everything and verifying is needed before saying, that radio is guilty.. 😂 Great video! It will be cool to see next part! That PTC is soldered on dashboard PCB.. Usually, that fuse is renewable after cooling down.. For radio there should be backlight dimmer input line. Probably, faulty ignition switch is somehow affecting that line and causing that behavior and radio is just confused.. It will be great, to see backlight, ignition lines in one oscilloscope shot.. Strange thing is, that radios, usually, can work without backlight signal.. 😕 This situation is confusing, indeed, because, radio should stay turn on..

[@keithbrown7406]

The key and switch had me in stitches😂.

[@russellhltn1396]

I'm wondering about those splices you found in the steering column. It could be some third party add-on causing some of the strange behavior. But I agree with changing the switch and re-eval.

[@TheFallenAngel13524]

I think it was a recall of sorts. My 02 ram has a green wire ran under the dash outside of the harness too. Haven’t checked the column to see if it had a the pink wire ran though but I found the green when I was putting a new radio in.

[@PhillipBailey]

The PTC fuse is internal in tge TIPM. It's like a solid state circuit breaker. Chrysler has been using these since the mid 80's

[@fredautos]

Yeah, I have had Several cases like this.. . It's always fun troubleshooting issués like this!..

[@vickenkaragozian2041]

Very common Jake on Chryslers and Jeeps. The lock cylinder is bad. I had this many times and yes after a while you'll figure it out very easily the culprit.

[@stevestadnik9206]

PTC is positive temperature coefficient fuse which is circuit board mounted and normally non replaceable, but I know you could easily if it went bad. It limits current based on heating.

[@autodiagyt]

Thanks I kinda figured it was some kind of self resetting breaker.

[@engeneer_ru5827]

Is it one-time or many cycles? What task does it perform, why not use a regular fuse?

[@paulburroughs1313]

It's a thermistor. PTC thermistors are resistors with a positive temperature coefficient, which means that the resistance increases with increasing temperature@@engeneer_ru5827

[@stevestadnik9206]

I think a combination of saving space and making non serviceable. Its cheaper from a manufacturing standpoint to wave solder a chip on a board rather than 2 female connectors to hold a fuse. I do believe they have a certain amount of cycles before dying. Just like ford BCM FET transistors that can handle an overcurrent for so many cycles then bricks module. Ask F150 plow guys who splice into headlights for light bar. @@engeneer_ru5827

[@MattyEngland]

​@@autodiagytPTC increase resistance as they get warmer, used as protection for overcurrent and self resets. NTC is the opposite, resistance gets lower as it gets hotter, they are used for inrush current protection

[@JOHNPHUFNAGEL]

Love it! I bet a lot of people would have put a radio in it

[@Ottonic6]

Ignition swithch. You saw ACC is all the way back and off is in the 2nd pos. It's the ign. switch, because that key should not come out in all positions.. Just subscribed. Thank you. This was/is interesting...

[@amundsen575]

love that amp clamp,when zeroing , keep meter in same plane and close to wire under test gives accurate readingsI will try to find the eprom reflash as I too hate that little annoyance when turned on to volts or amp ranges. I also always cut off the finger stops on test leads! able to use the probes close together. Re-flash easy and successful using CH341 programmer

[@sergei41]

I had exactly same issue on 2002 cherokee, spent most of the day on it 👍

[@cullenmiller8170]

Great video and diagnosis. Sometimes you do have to fix known issues to keep going. Obviously, the lock cylinder is bad and the ignition switch is not working properly either. It would be interesting to know if there are any other problems.

[@jeremyah78]

Fun diag! I would definitely be putting a switch in it! Really enjoyed the live diag!

[@c-moneycantrell7681]

I love the very professional way he said ( hell I don’t know throw some parts at it) lol I’m kidding, this guy is very good at what he does obviously. I definitely learned something

[@v12alpine]

Clamp meter hint: When zeroing a clamp you need to do it right next to the cable you're measuring in the same orientation. Any change in orientation or location will pick up stray EMI and throw off the reading.

[@ThunderbirdRocket]

Very helpful and super interesting case study ! We are not only gaining practical skill but are learning (encouragement) to be resilient in our battle !! 👊🏼

[@arthurburke1044]

New to your channel and loving it !!! This electrical work is great to watch

[@alrifainidal]

thanks for the hard work you do

[@joeandgod1]

Battery drains go from very easy to the hardest electrical diagnostics problems of all.

[@stevejakobsen2765]

Try zeroing the clamp while holding it where you are going to clamp it on to the wire. If that makes sense. Got it myself and love that thing

[@phillipzan2005]

I only ever had the thermostat camera be able to tell me a part is still on once. That was an alternator that was really hot . And I've done a ton of diagnostics.

[@PaulCTownsend]

Good job thank you.

[@truckgotstuck]

I think why it's not making sense to you is because the door is open. The signal sent to the radio is going to vary based on whether your door is open or not. Radio stays on when you turn off the vehicle until you open your door. Key presence and ignition position are not tied together in a way that makes sense because no one programmed the PCM to have any combination with key not present other than ignition off so it does not know what to do. The status will depend on the order of operations in the programming. Key not present and ignition in accessory position and door open does not have a specific instruction written into the PCM. I believe in the bus communication, Key presence is a has one address, ignition position is another address, and door position has another address. With the door closed, you would probably have different results. Think about how you can't get a ram truck with a dial shifter to move when the door is open. Same idea. I can't keep track of your ignition positions in the video, but I think if you turned the truck to off and pulled the key, positions are start/run/off/acc or start/run/acc1/off/acc2. I believe steering wheel lock is disengaged in run or start and run positions only but that's not within the scope of what we are talking about. Basically, all these functions that were controlled by mechanical locks and contact switches are now done through a win module or a hybrid ignition cylinder somewhere between mechanical ignition and win module. You have to think in instructions sent based on positions, not mechanical functions and contacts made based on ignition position and remember that other sensors and switches are going to affect the system response to key position. Additionally, you may be dealing with communication on 2 different busses. Canbus is bidirectional, but linbus is just going to give instructions, but the device will not report back. That's why we don't get power window motor failure messages, because the linbus just tells the motor what to do, it's not listening for a response from it. Ignition position, key presence, and door position are likely on a linbus which only sends commands but does not listen for responses so there is no error code when the key is removed, the settings are just as it was last told to do. The ignition, if a win module, may be a gateway that converts lin to can and outputs a can signal. The cluster and/or the radio will be a gateway. That's how I understand it anyway, I could be wrong. I hope this makes some sense to you or at least sends you down a track to making it make sense in your situation. You might be too early for a lin bus but it could be some primative version that uses the same ideas, but not the communication network specifically as the technology was kind if changing at that point. I think lin stated in 2002, but when it started being used in dodges, I don't know. I didn't look at the wiring diagrams for this truck specifically so I am kinda spit balling ideas.

[@ThunderbirdRocket]

Thank you for sharing your knowledge !

[@Transient901]

Whatever works is the method of the day!! What sux with the fuse method is when the draw is not on a fused circuit. In my opinion after 45+ years that parasitic draws can be some of the toughest problems to solve.

[@joebriano6090]

Found a amp clamp that has Bluetooth to your phone for parasitics draw test so you can remotely watch on phone while you pull fuses

[@stevestadnik9206]

Ivan has a link to a Wifi current shunt to use on phone built by Gadgets?

[@cyberslacker5150]

The aftermarket wires under the steering column are a recall fix that Dodge did due to high amp draw of the A/C blower. Seems the original wires were too thin and they overheated and melted, creating a fire risk. They fix the recall by replacing the thin wires with a heavier gauge of wire, from the fuse box to the ignition switch and back to the blower motor.

[@hschack]

I think the PTC is a Polyfuse (a fuse there have mere resistens as the current get higher then voltage drop)

[@crasher88]

I believe those big heavy gauge wires coming out of the steering column go to the blower motor. I had a similar set up on a similar era ram truck that I was replacing the HVAC actuators on earlier this year. Don't know the reason why it was done but it kind of threw me for a loop for a bit because they go all the way to the other side of the dash and there are no connectors to unplug it.

[@Mario-zb1yc]

Love your diagnostics, Ivan also 👍

[@shaunblakemore7150]

Good job 👍

[@bengardezy2169]

I owned a 2005 ram and yes i could turn my truck what I thought was off but it was the acc position. But when it was off there was no draw. Maybe your cust just wore the switch out doing this too much. When ever i do draw tests i just open the doors and close latches. Then hook meter up and wait til it goes to sleep. Then do check fuses with another meter.

[@scotts4125]

This happens on very old and well worn beaters. People that also have a ton of weight on their keychain. I'm an automotive locksmith so have I seen this a lot. Usually the key and wafers in the lock wear out together. If you had a new key made by code it might not work due to the lock being worn. If you just rekeyed the lock it might not work due to key wear. It's probably just the key and cylinder but if it has that much wear it's not a bad idea to change the electrical switch as well. If the guy just buys a new cylinder and key it won't match the existing door lock. You need to buy a keying kit or have an auto locksmith key the new one up to match. I think you said it was an 02 so it shouldn't have a transponder. They started using them in 05.

[@mil7onautodiagnostics633]

I had exactly the same issue on a 2005 o 06 dodge dakota, the key will come out of ignition on any position

[@aymenmohamed1134]

Great video 😄

[@sheerwillsurvival2064]

Great video 👊🏻

[@arlo4051]

I have a 2003 ram that you have to mess with the key to get the radio to play in the ACC setting. I guess it better having it not working then draining the battery.

[@DJ-tn7vj]

All hail thermal energy camera 😊

[@MrAnthonyfym]

I bought a thermal I use it for a quick and dirty on the fuse box see if anything abnormally hot before I run the meter

[@stevepark5504]

Clip the + meter lead to the batt +. Then use the - meter lead to probe the fuses for one hand testing.

[@bradfaught1695]

Ive had a uni t for about 4 years, i really like it cos you cant smoke it.

[@engeneer_ru5827]

The ZERO button on the current clamps must be pressed AFTER installation in the nearby working position. This will eliminate the influence of the magnetic field of the earth and nearby objects.

[@martinarrieta248]

Grasias

[@martinsheanon3232]

on some gm uk vauxhall cars the ignition switch had a small switch that detects when you insert key this not the ignition switch itself it is meant to power up accessories bit like fiat cars allowed you to turn back the ignition switch one extra turn to turn side lights ,normally yo know as if doors open it will start binging if key is slightly in ignition switch allowing radio to run without ignition on .ie sticky switch in barrel wd40 or replace spring jams

[@sohailrabani]

Great tool to see whats consuming electrons😂

[@darrenmurphy6251]

ptc is kindsa a weird slang for a resitor with positive temperature coefficient so like a thermistor but in reverse, now that infers that its a temperature sensor and it can be , but in this context its a self resetting thermal cut out with a soft lazy overload characteristic so it works well with devices that have varieng peak loading or just used for its self resetting nature its a device that looks like a disc ceramic capacitor although sometimes rectangular and is soldered in

[@billluzius3778]

PTC - Positive Temperature Coefficient - This device acts similar to an auto resetting relay

[@darrenmurphy6251]

thing is all methods of drain chasing have pitfalls you need to have several options and chose according to how much drain you have and whether its constant or the dreaded intermittent drain ,thermal imaging can send you straight to the issue saving loads of time but only if you have a very high drain, a clamp meter changes its reading if the jaw doesnt fully shut or its axis changes typically when theres not much room or you cant get the meter to settle into a position where you can read it , the best way for smaller drains ie less than about 150ma is a multimeter in series with the battery but you need some spare meter fuses when someone tries to crank it or the alarm gets triggered and wakes the whole car up , gets expensive with a fluke if you are distracted alot at work ! if you have a intermittent drain then you need data logging or peak hold but you would have to test over days for each master fuse then each sub fuse that runs of that draining master fuse , my experiance most intermittent drains have been new or "rebuilt" alternators with a faulty regulator pack (a mix of still run and charge just fine or the max voltage starts climbing too high as it warms up)

[@Mario-zb1yc]

Positive Temperatur cofizient . Thermofuse

[@mikechiodetti4482]

Could be worn or damaged key lock assembly. Depending on how many miles or stop and go useage the switch could have wear in the area of the contacts. Sometimes you can clean the lock assy but that usually doesn't last to long. The fix may just be a new switch and lock assembly.

[@johnz8210]

Pretty interesting where that led to. There's a 2017 Ram Promaster here - I wanted to check fuses for the cooling fans - it has "sealed" fuses, no access to the tops of them. Why are they like that? I answered that with foul language. By the way, it came here towed from a Ram dealer, cranks slow no start. They put a new starter on it, then told the customer the engine is bad, (the 3.6), is seized up. The a/c compressor pulley is locked up, I took the belt off and it started right up. It does have a bad fan, too.

[@ThunderbirdRocket]

Good job 👍🏼 . Love that kinda story ! 👊🏼

[@Ahmed.Diesel]

My favorite diagnaser ❤❤

[@paulspeller968]

so i also don’t have much luck with those thermal cameras in the fuse box . only time i have seen it work the ambient temp out side was bloody freezing 🥶. wow what a fault and what an ignition switch 🤣🤣🤣🤣 was explaining to a buddy friday on a car we looked at . can issue but there were 2 issues and i said i can’t properly diagnose the second issue until the first one is fixed because it is causing me not to be able to diagnose the second issue properly and i don’t want to guess

[@cannbudo]

Any follow up on this? Glad you caught that splice. Thanks for the videos

[@autodiagyt]

Last I heard they put a key cylinder and switch in it and haven’t seen it since.

[@sheerwillsurvival2064]

I bought the ES 683 low current high accuracy amp clamp man it’s awesome. I also bought the KAIweets clamp you showed on your channel. Iam covered 😁

[@autodiagyt]

The 683 looks pretty good but the jaw looks hard to get around some battery cables. The uni-t gets around most.

[@sheerwillsurvival2064]

@@autodiagyt true so far so good

[@avitiello100]

Try turning the switch with just a screw driver. The switch may have been tampered with in the past.

[@spelunkerd]

Interesting problem! I agree, fix related parts that are possible culprits and broke, reassess, and try again. By the way, you might want to change the spelling on the title, it's easy to fix, and it will come up with a google search more easily. Parasitic.

[@Transient901]

We need peace, and uni-t.... Heaven at once. Kool and the Gang.

[@darrenmurphy6251]

just had this ! couple of weeks ago dodge ram 1500 and iam in the uk so these are rare it was the 1st id ever worked on, no dip beam headlamp control module ,no radio, bonnet light power ,and dead speed sensor on diff casing , and once fixed i kept leaving the radio on because it let me take the key out in accessory position ,thought that it shouldnt have ! it always showed the clock though when i left acc on ,european cars dont have the accessory position after the off position so we just turn all the way anti clockwise and thats all off

[@darrenmurphy6251]

Well worth rewriting the eeprom there's loads of settings in there such as meter timeout shutdown, back light timeout, dc mode at switch on, the way it autoranges and other stuff I can't remember now makes a nice meter nicer mine is the mastech ms2108a it's the same meter, sorry i meant voltcraft vc330

[@renefuller9241]

Yes, you need a Caleb 🙂. The Videos have great content and easy to follow, but a Caleb would make it way easier on you.

[@Eddiemac8343]

My guys turn Chrysler keys all way back to acc parked in shop overnight and kill batteries all the time 😅especially when there there to diag a code and kill codes 😵‍💫

[@autodiagyt]

Lol that sucks

[@pinpointauto3091]

So what I've come to use as my approach is amp clamp, if active I use thermal as first step, newer cars it seems to be network alive so thermal imager not so helpful, if not active I go in line with my curien because my iPad won't go to sleep and records min max forever as long as it's charging

[@autodiagyt]

I’ve been wanting to try out a curien

[@waqasazmat81]

Jake just a QQ on 23:13 when you are using the test bulb(s), if the voltage was to drop then it means what? Voltage bleeding into this circuit from other circuit or possibly shorted to positive or negative. Am I correct on this? As always thank you sir for posting videos with full of knowledge. :)

[@autodiagyt]

Yes. I was looking for voltage to drop, indicating that voltage was leaking into the circuit some how like water/corrosion in a connector.

[@nservice1625]

This was a very common problem of chrysler products of this vintage. You dove in deeper than i ever went though. Accessory is rotated all the back. If I recall, it takes a good 25 min for these things to go to sleep aswell.

[@autodiagyt]

I waited a solid 10 minutes while I scanned a different car and to stayed at 100ma so maybe I didn’t wait long enough but it seemed to long.

[@nservice1625]

@@autodiagyt I definitely remember 25 min being the magic number on these dodge trucks, I belive it was the BCM or the seat belt module that would stay awake that long.

[@peteradams6156]

Try meter leads with tweezer, used in electronic toubleshooting

[@autodiagyt]

I've seen them but haven't seen where to buy them. I need to look lol

[@lawrencekedgettjr2364]

A worn tumbler will do that ,,, I had many cars with that problem ,,,,,

[@deeznutz3494]

I could be wrong, but I’m just throwing this out there for the hell of it: Maybe the input from the key-in reminder switch (which is part of the ignition switch) is used to wake up the radio. That’s all I can think of, as to why the radio goes out when the key is removed. Weird problem either way

[@autodiagyt]

If so it would have to be inputting that over the pci bus

[@deeznutz3494]

@@autodiagyt yes, since the key-in switch is wired directly to the cluster

[@rickjames8943]

You need to get a flir e54 thermal camera the sensor on those are better in show a 1/4 of a degree and show a better image the only drawback is they cost over 5,000 bucks

[@simonsherwood7169]

Does the clamp time out ,switches off after a preset time

[@autodiagyt]

Yes it does

[@HouseCallAutoRepair]

48°F here... Put a new front bearing in my Tacoma ( With a Chinesium defect...)

[@zackarymcclain164]

I posted in an eeprom group showing you how to do the eeprom mod.

[@autodiagyt]

Which group? Am I in it

[@bigdredre3725]

I have found several parasitic draws using my thermal camera

[@jordysandino6577]

Hello mister jake I’m trying to but the Gm test ligth and ask me for promo code 🤷🏻‍♂️any idea? Thank you

[@autodiagyt]

Just leave it blank

[@DS-ss7vl]

Lol!! Head Scratcher @26:09.

[@nservice1625]

How low will that clamp read?

[@autodiagyt]

It’s got an auto off but not sure how long it it’s. It’s linked in my Amazon store

[@nservice1625]

@@autodiagyt I mean, what is the lowest amperage reading it will measure accurately? 5mA, 20mA?

[@autodiagyt]

@@nservice1625 I’m not sure what the claimed range is but I’ve tested it to be accurate at 30 but that was fresh batteries and as they age or drain it will change how accurate it is.

[@engeneer_ru5827]

Exactly 5 and 10 mA. You need to get used to the device. He's capricious.

[@timh5887]

Your store link takes me to the wrong tool. It show a UT210D. Better correct it ASAP

[@autodiagyt]

Lol I’m struggling to figure all this technical stuff out lol

[@timh5887]

@@autodiagyt You do a great job, IMO!

[@soptea]

What if instead measuring milivolts on a fuse you measure miliamps ?

[@autodiagyt]

You would have to full the fuse to do amp readings on individual fuses.

[@soptea]

@@autodiagyt Nope , meter will create a parallel path to current across fuse , reading will be lower than real but still useful .

[@autodiagyt]

@@soptea I’m confused. What would be the purpose then? There is a chart posted by power probe that gives the fuse type and rating with voltage drops to know about how much current is flowing using the voltage reading. I’m just not seeing the point in paralleling your meter in current mode.

[@soptea]

@@autodiagyt It was just another idea for acquire new information that could be useful ...no current flow on fuse no reading on ammeter ..maybe it worth a shot

[@ebolti22]

@@soptea How to connect to the fuse without removing it when it is closed from the top and has no terminals?

[@edwardsilva895]

Put the damn camera down and do your job

[@autodiagyt]

Not really the right attitude to have. I work for myself and will do what I want when I want. If you’re not here to learn or positive then please just don’t watch.

[@edwardsilva895]

It's maddening to me that when you need both hands to do proper testing or to perform whatever task you're doing you don't use a tripod or head mounted gopro

[@autodiagyt]

@@edwardsilva895 I have a tripod it’s just worn out a won’t stay up anymore. I’ve got a replacement that I ordered the other day.