The Winners & Losers of Melee DPS in The War Within

[@petersimon2619]

Whirling dragon punch's animation is one of the most satisfying ways to get your character killed.

[@VesperalTV]

LOL

[@benkelly7182]

lmao

[@AD690smcr]

True, but i have died more times monk rolling off cliffs and platforms lol

[@TopicxWoW]

It's like 1.5 seconds... if you die in that time period, you either shouldn't have pressed it or you need to study the fight mechanics more. It's really not bad at all.

[@sheetinthestreet5903]

Same deal as Chi Burst having a nonsensical one second cast time. Should be instant.

[@Khaltazar]

You didn't include Retribution Paladin, Enhancement Shaman, Feral Druid, or Survival Hunter? Does that mean you feel they aren't winners or losers, but about the same as DF?

[@AlvinEarthworm]

I've mained an Unholy DK since Wrath and I'm super hyped to try out the rework and hero talents. Actually having good mobility with the Riders of the Apocalypse talents will be a godsend.

[@denisb1223]

that is why i stopped maining DK it was way too slow for me. Time for a comeback!

[@Sodys_eyy]

@@denisb1223yeah DK is kinda slow but also is basically immune to slows. DKs are just unstopabble killing machines that use deathgrip instead of dashes and jumps

[@potaterjim]

​@@Sodys_eyyI really enjoyed that little inversion, where DK's had opposite mobility: instead of moving faster, they just got to ignore slows and yank enemies. I definitely felt slow most of the time, but you felt way better about it when you popped deaths advance and just Chad-walked through stuff. Larodar in particular was a fun fight to be a blood dk

[@Sodys_eyy]

@@potaterjim yeah. I main DK and I kinda love being this slow monster. Its a little scary when DK is slowly aproaching you and if he catches you, you are dead :D

[@Sly_404]

Spot on when it comes to rogue. Not the biggest fan of Outlaw revolving all around crackshot and Subs bloat of off gcd amp buttons you are supposed to hit during the opener sequence. Assa is probaly the most healthy out of the 3 but gets dragged down by how Deathstalker interacts with the base kit. Overall rogue just takes a step back compared to DF.

[@VesperalTV]

exactly! I feel I could probably learn to enjoy assa but it's for sure a little daunting at first

[@Tehstampede]

That's unfortunate; I'm an Ass rogue main and I'm hoping this spec gets some love

[@ZaHandoRequiem]

@@Tehstampedeim to or was. I’m gonna main dk or mage when rogue wont get any good changes

[@ramstab]

Fun for people who like gambling.

[@Garbage315]

@@VesperalTV You're right, I get it that Blizzard obviously wants rogue to be one of the difficult classes of the game but holy moly they need to calm down a bit, all 3 specs are an absolute headache to get the hang of. I've picked up assass just fine contrary to you but Outlaw gives me a freaking headache trying to figure out.

[@exporr]

0:15 Unholy DK 2:50 Windwalker Monk 5:00 Fury Warrior 6:40 Arms Warrior

[@StevenNeidlein]

No dh ?

[@Dreamerlok]

@@StevenNeidlein He only highlighted the winners that he mentioned.

[@StevenNeidlein]

@@Dreamerlok dh are winners

[@Dreamerlok]

@@StevenNeidlein Not according to VesperalTV

[@NickzGolf]

Ret is so fun, I find myself on top of the dps meter and it’s a very rewarding rotation with good sustain

[@bloods_inc]

another melee classes? enh, surv, pala, feral? whats about their hero talents and flows?

[@rznfoll338]

He tested EVERY melee class 😅

[@assassinguardian1]

@@rznfoll338 sounds like he didn't

[@Doug4130]

I'm legit impressed they made warrior feel as good as they have. everything feels so weighty and impactful. arms and fury having such distinct play styles while satisfyingly meeting the class fantasy of beating face, with prot feeling like a constantly advancing brick shit house of a wrecking ball just makes warrior chefs kiss, really looking forward to TWW

[@PawPawKitty]

No surprise Feral doesn't even get a mention, do we even exist in Blizzard's eyes?

[@frededy4]

no you never have and you never will.

[@Tuntin4]

Ehhh missed some? 😅

[@ramstab]

Me as an Enhancement Shaman reading this, I feel you brother. Stay strong!

[@Musiclover4822]

​@@ramstabEnhance literally has been slapping in DF, what are you on about. Your build was already near perfect, only problem was surviving.

[@ramstab]

@@Musiclover4822 the class is nowhere near perfect, but I understand your perspective

[@TheRandomDude-qy1ev]

Enhancment storm build is the most fun melee IMO. Colors everywhere, basically can't die now. And just really fun.

[@VesperalTV]

Definitely agree

[@andreypavlov5187]

Is it a surprise that the developer for rogue and DH are one and the same and these specs suck the most ? Fire that guy already jeez.

[@TheShawnMower]

Yea shelved both. Actually also shelving druid... rip leather classes

[@mehmetozturk771]

Completely agree, both specs sucks forced to play around low duration buffs like subterfuge and inertia

[@nerdkartoffl9019]

@@mehmetozturk771 Huch much dps difference are we talking (for DH)? Are there numbers? If it's like 10 - 15% more dps IF executed nearly optimal, it's not really worth talking about.

[@Voltaire0630]

If it's the same people that made the changes in DF they did such a good job in DF for the talent trees. I am willing to give them a chance to fix if it's the same people.

[@Juxer_SC]

@@nerdkartoffl9019 I know you’re using arbitrary percentages but 10-15% would be an astronomical difference.

[@jsgroove]

I'm surprised to not have seen Survival Hunter in this video. Was it just not to your fancy? I've seen so many players singing its praises so far!

[@driiifter]

Yeah um anyone with an IQ over 100 is turning up their nose at Outlaw and Sub. Just ridiculous how much bloat and APM there is. If I wanted to challenge my APM, I would just take an online typing test. They need to hire a Rogue developer who plays ARPGs and video games. Do yourself a favor and just play Frost DK.

[@PawPawKitty]

Mavis Beacon is calling you🤣

[@karvakorvakoira]

I hate momentum so much. I've wanted to raid as DH for ages but that bloody thing keeps me from doing it

[@SlayerD2]

For Havoc all they need to do is add a glyph of fel rush which reduces the range of Fel rush in half.

[@hvdiv17]

ww monk is looking really good and the blackout kick feels like what windfury should be. i mite have to main ww monk for the first time.

[@bobstoner415]

WW is incredibly fun. Can't go wrong and you dont see em as often.

[@markojovanovic9651]

So hyped for warriors and dks finally

[@champboehm7863]

9 cd opener is sick

[@Sly_404]

Guess your referring to Sub. In reality its even worse as Thistle Tea, Shadow Dance, Shadow Blades, Symbol of Death are all off the GCD. So it's more like you are supposed to press up to 12 buttons over 6 globals (assuming you have an amp trinket and pot on top).

[@benkelly7182]

I think some people are into it. As sadistic as it is.

[@m_rod9562]

Actually, its 10 if you count Symbols of Death. But Goremaws bite they dont take, dance and cold blood can be macro’d to other abilities that you’d want to use together. Such as shadow blades and shadow dance, as well as, cold blood and secret technique. Thistle tea can also be macrod worst case scenario.

[@Hyperion602]

It's not actually that bad, that section of the video was mildly disingenuous (probably not intentional). You don't play Goremaw's, Cold Blood just gets macro'd in to Secret Technique and removed from your bar, Shuriken Tornado is AoE only and also smooths out the next 4 globals, etc. It *is* still really bad and a few of the buttons *cough* Flagellation *cough* need to be removed, but it's easier than this particular video makes it seem.

[@plaagbeest2429]

''It feels like i need to have 9 years experience of playing on the piano'' (c) Vesp 2024 best new quote for sure XD

[@VesperalTV]

Lmaooo

[@Somber_Bear]

Ret paladin? Feral Druid? Enh Shammy?

[@TheHateHarbinger]

I've been a DK main since Wrath, usually unholy and blood, but trying frost cuz I like the thematics more. Every time a new expansion comes around I always say, maybe I'll go back to my warlock roots this time. It never happens.

[@aerolive8953]

that jump at 13:54 made my day! Thanks for that

[@Zeferet.]

The AOE touch of death was fun the first hundred times. Then it got annoying xd Edit: Meant to say times not dungeons.

[@VesperalTV]

lmao i never liked it

[@ethanmcclelland8672]

I will not miss frantically trying to click a second nameplate with low health and get another touch of death off

[@kernel2006]

Nice vid, thanks for letting us know your thoughts. But damn am I bummed about rogue tho. They should be great 😔!

[@James_Johnson79]

Momentum isn’t required unless you want to absurdly min/Max your build. As it stands everyone is grumpy about the wrong thing. Your momentum window is nowhere near as impactful as your Essence Break window. So don’t be afraid to run without momentum.

[@hernanquinonez767]

It doesn’t feel good regardless knowing you’re not doing the damage you can only because of how much movement is tied to our damage profile. What other class has this problem? Just get rid of the damage coming from dashing and leaping back. Warrior charge doesn’t do damage. Neither does roll or dash. Hunter disengage doesn’t increase dmg. These classes can use important movement abilities when they’re needed as they’re supposed to. Not as a current demon hunter and it’s felt terrible. I mained dh since legion but these past seasons have been unbearable with the required movement

[@James_Johnson79]

@@hernanquinonez767 fun fact. If you don’t like it then don’t play it. You’re not going to lag too far behind and in many cases will do better dps than DH players attempting to carry the mental load of perfect momentum play. BEkAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIJJRSAAAAAAAAAAAAg0SSgSSCSgSJCA This build does great all purpose damage and you’ve got 2 or more flex points. Yes you’ll still be hitting vengeful retreat, but you won’t be flying off shit.

[@evilmarius]

Blizz destroyed druids in diablo and now in wow. I just cant get it anymore. Im tired as a druid main.

[@sninctbur3726]

I'm glad warriors were done justice. To me, little represents the Warcraft fantasy better than picking up an oversized, overdesigned axe (or two) and charging into battle.

[@IWNFYG]

what do you think about ret paladins in new expansion, if its not that good I might turn back to being a warrior which I always loved

[@VesperalTV]

Ret is good and fun, but it's a VERY simple rotation - I'd probs get bored of it quick

[@Corboe]

Ret pal not that good ???? 😂😂😂 U not play WoW for Say that shit bro , ret pal it's mega enjoy gameplay and damage too u are blind lol

[@PawPawKitty]

From what I've seen in other videos, Ret will continue to be a drool on the keyboard and win spec. Don't be surprised to see about 50+% of the dps population rolling Ret paladin.

[@dark9nine]

@@VesperalTV And fury is incredibly complex right? lol

[@sjwhater]

​@@dark9nine fury is easy but at least 3x more complex than retrd paladin 😂

[@StanislavTsanev]

It's overwhelming how they always forget the Shamans and the DH ! Dh still the only class with 2 specs and the dame playstyle as when it started. Shams never got a customizable Wolf form while Druids got tons !

[@Lorkinette]

No survival love?

[@TJR123]

Love or even mention. I think they are still a melee class? Maybe he will talk them in ranged???

[@Corboe]

Survival not really problem with rework and it's good in globallity

[@terps710]

Not even going to bother watching knowing he didnt mention survival

[@TJR123]

@@terps710 yeah, I can't get enough so I will totally still watch

[@SamMathewsOfficial]

The whole reason I clicked on this video lol.

[@huytran2632]

I recently got back onto WOW, and I have to say that yes, the history in the past with the path Blizzard took definitely had downsides, but now that I’ve rejoined the fray it brings back great memorable and nostalgic moments I’ve had playing WOW. Let us hope that Blizzard is on a new path and learned from their past! FOR AZEROTH AND HORD HOMIES! 😆

[@darkwa456]

I main assination and subtlety dont ask me why ive just always enjoyed them, but your 100% right subtley is crazy complicated and bloated, i can understand why rogue hero talents are all passive because the specs already are very complicated for the average player.

[@MrSaucyBeans]

You missed out frost DK and ret pally? And enhance shamam and feral druid

[@Frostingale]

unfortunately no-one cares about frost even though its a lot better to play now. ret pallies are a dime a dozen.

[@stefanos1679]

for me all classes are the same with a few different passives, I expected a way bigger change with the hero talents kinda disappointing

[@Byhythloh]

For years I have jumped between classes each new season, unable to pick an "all time main". With TWW, Unholy is now the version I always wished it had been. I now exclusively main DK, no matter the meta.

[@deepwaterled]

Blizzard killed the Rogue class way back in legion and replaced rogue viability with demon hunters and everyone else. Rogues were left behind.

[@ryanclough8967]

I mained feral druid in the last season. How're they looking for the expansion?

[@ThichabodCrane]

Not great

[@panda8bamboo161]

Idk, arms is kinda meh. I feel like it's missing something. dmg is good tho

[@scorpiowarrior7841]

I love arms, it's my main....but my god blizzard please for the love of god rework the spec. PLEASE.

[@Dude-hb3ii]

Please tell me you’re gonna drop some guides before the new expansion comes out. Would be so huge for everyone. Earned my sub

[@visualstv4077]

As a warrior and DK main I’m hyped for the reworks

[@sonicalmods781]

I always enjoyed assassination rogue been a more "sophisticated" spec, problem is it also used to be rewarding and not only punishing... That's an actually scary turn for wow... Making every spec easy and not rewarding at all, i think we ve been there with bfa and results were devastating... You remember pruning and everything... Less punishing should be less rewarding, no content creators never mention this and that was a big part of WoW success imo...

[@nathanw4897]

Havoc main since Legion. But stopped playing after season 1 in DF and don’t feel like I will be going back any time soon. The simple gameplay with tons of mobility was so epic but making the mobility be part of your damage rotation killed it imo. And the penalty for messing up your rotation just makes it not fun.

[@Ghrolz]

It's only the opener that's long for assasination, after that it mega simple.

[@TheShawnMower]

I used to main death knight and Warlock and love summoning / edgelord stuff in my WoW. Probably going to play my Maghari Death Knight to tank and dps as unholy as my main Alt. They have faster mount speed and pet health so ita perfect synergy

[@Deivias393]

I love fury but at 38 years old i can't do it anymore, 20 years of it has destroyed my wrist lol

[@gscgold]

I hate the fact blizzard killed combat rogue in Legion. My main was combat rogue since TBC up til Legion..so now I mainly play classic era. I really want to come back to retail but I can not find a class that I enjoy other than ret pally but I'm kinda tired of it to be honest.

[@Drebin]

Funnily enough I always found rogue to play better in bfa then it does now

[@TheDarkyodk]

The state of Rogue is making me want to reroll if it's not fixed for launch, Monk or DK seem very tempting rn

[@leonardceres9061]

idk I kinda love momentum because why not? idgaf about moving. I haven't had a problem with dieing to mechanics.

[@Fleshbag453]

Honestly, I'm really looking forward to trying windwalker out in the prepatch. I know it won't be complete until you're lvl 80 but I've always loved windwalker and the playstyle of never pressing the same button twice in a row feels great to me. I really hope they're good though because getting a raid spot as a melee dps that's also a hybrid class is a real challenge.

[@wowyersmart]

I love your UI, trying my best to copy it it feels clean

[@scorpiowarrior7841]

Honestly I think collusus on arms needs a rework. I just think the root channel dosen't feel good, it also just needs more single target to really compete with slayer. Which sucks, because god DAMN is slayer basic

[@Dogheadman]

to some comments below, just play whatever you like. you guys probably are just casual players and the top 1% doesnt apply to you anyway. do not worry too much on specs becuase you never know when Blizzard will make a patch with a overhaul again. why not just enjoy the one you have feel on.

[@neener461]

What about ret?

[@Stonemojo1]

what about enhancement shaman.

[@deltawolf]

"What about all the things that you said we were to gain?"

[@vagibont1986]

As a dk main we deserve it for a very long time weve suffer from walking being know as the slowest class for over a decade 😢

[@Drack093]

Blizz 100% ruined outlaw rogue. If I wanted to play around stealth windows I’d play subtlety, but I wanted to keep playing the cool swashbuckling pirate rogue they introduced during legion. I don’t understand why they made this change, it took away a lot of flavor and “fun” of outlaw. Just being able to go nuts and slam cooldowns on every pull was great, the reward of playing it well was exponential as well. Now it’s just “hngggh go stealth use gun hnngh”

[@Tehstampede]

I've mained Ass since TBC and it's been a roller coaster of a ride since then. I love the spec but Blizz needs to figure their shit out with the rogue specs man. Ass should be the double dagger poison/bleed DoT spec, Combat should be the big weapon dual-wield AoE spec, and Sub should be the dagger/sword combo spec that focuses on interrupts and stuns.

[@lankeysob]

Assassination was my favorite when they had Exsanguinate. Really wish that was still part of the spec.

[@DemonicInfinity]

I was ass too with the onlyfan spec , best goldmaking I got on wow

[@Zezeds]

About havoc. It is one of the specs with most mobility, but the less mobile spec in the game. A lot of mobility, but you spend everything in the rotation, and when the mechanic comes you need to walk your way. That sucks!

[@blehhgg]

Alright, im UHDK in the war within. I really like the SP but hotdamn!

[@KroesGaming]

SV Hunter is still a "melee spec" 🙂 Even if most abilities are ranged. Would love to have seen it in this video.

[@TopicxWoW]

Was Survival a Runner up outside of DK, WW & Warrior? I've been hearing how much fun it is and smoother compared to Dragonflight. Seems like it got the love it needed not to mention the Hunter rework. However, due to how good the first 3 you mentioned are, I do believe it might get overshadowed in representation and damage. However it does have lust, increased tankiness and a much better utility kit. I do think it might break into top 3 melee DPS.

[@GDT1124]

I had no idea that Zach from Try Guys did WoW content.

[@benjaminpoppe6024]

As a DK / Warrior Main im happy. Between BDK and Prot, what do you prefer? Trying to get one of them as a Tank main, the other as a DD Main.

[@MuttleyGames]

Get BDK as it is usually very good for raids and also has a battle res. Prot tanks don't usually get in the meta. It's up to who you find more fun at the end of the day.

[@marcelrodriguez2067]

Idk why but i was never able to do alot of dps with unholy in the 10 years ive played wow but ill give it a shot at beta.

[@MehuMummo]

I disagree with the sub part. for me it feels it needs more buttons...

[@Geestar1337]

imagine not trying survival hunter lul

[@terps710]

Bro sits down when he pees

[@KiaStout]

And survival feels amazing on the beta, the only reason I'm not maining is because I like to have a tank spec.

[@swarles354]

Where's the survival love at? Finally a major overhaul of the class that feels good and not even a mention? Sadge

[@glenneric1]

I can't consume any data these days unless it's in Tier list format! 😤

[@Charmarque]

Arms or Fury for PVP ?

[@JustinValentino]

Thanks for the video Vesp :D looks like great fun

[@VesperalTV]

Thanks dude!

[@blvck86]

Momentum needs to be removed, that is also the reason i'm not playing demon hunter anymore.

[@JOD3_N]

Think i will be playing warrior this time around and Ret pally

[@wesleyvl8572]

Do the healers nexts

[@zac6337]

So no survival hunter, enchantment shaman, and feral druid love?

[@Kfo221]

I have no idea how you can have fun with monk. Its animations are 12 years old at this point. TWELVE.

[@markaurelius2333]

survival hunter not melee?

[@Flirt136]

Read the title of the vid and try again

[@terps710]

Bro is out of touch

[@markaurelius2333]

@@Flirt136 I read it.. whats your point? survival hunter is melee.. same es enhancement shaman or feral.. if you make a video about winners/losers I expect all spects to get mentioned. there is no "medicore spec"-category in this video.. either you are a winner or loser spec

[@Flirt136]

​@@markaurelius2333 Use your head I'm sure you can figure it out champ

[@markaurelius2333]

@@Flirt136 :)))))))) funny guy.. next time dont bother answering people if thats all you have to say

[@sardonicspartan9343]

Momentum was the original havoc demon hunter build

[@dwseagle17]

Uuuuh oh!!! Better put those damn time stamps in there or all the people who “skip these videos” will be sure to take time to leave their comments!

[@VesperalTV]

LMAO

[@Levelity]

I just don't understand what's fun about grabbing a pack and aoe'ing them down. The only way it's fun is if it's designed to not be able to do that, and you're able to do it anyways.

[@BREAKocean]

Is that phantogram music?

[@Thundercloud1969]

Fun? what fun is for you can be boring for someone else so it's all personal choice....

[@Rob165x]

*Feral Druid entered the chat* Hello...anyone still here?

[@rstarrkk]

im with you on momentum, that shit is straight garbage. we shouldnt be using movement abilities in our rotation, we should be saving them for mechanics.

[@failandimprove2159]

I think u are overcomplicating assa rogue a bit, your main prio is just to spread some garrotes, but u dont need to change target, you just press it on your main target and same with rupture. Also thistle tea timing is not that important for damage, but i understand how assa might look daunting when you cant grasp what exactly you are supposed to do. Most of the damage is from spatter when blasting main target. Also hero talents make no sense for assa ty Blizzard!

[@Hyperion602]

Arms is carried hard by how good and fun the hero talents are, the base spec is very boring with the TWW changes. The DF version of Arms had some problems but there's no doubt in my mind it was more fun in general than the TWW version, and as good as Colossus/Slayer are, not enough to keep me playing the spec sadly

[@TheTlMEWARP]

DH hero talents are dog water

[@lumjicsgo]

given that you haven't included several specs in the melee and ranged video, I'm wondering what does that mean? does it mean that they are neither winners nor losers? a lot of people are left confused by the exclusion of those other specs.

[@Chopingo2]

I though unholy dk got nerf to the ground? As a DH main i will not be playing DH from the start. I was thinking monk for the first time.

[@travisshipcott2808]

Missed ret, frost, survival, enhance, feral ... Oof

[@heyyoyoho3113]

I main dh since it relased but right now playing dh gives me pains.

[@eggrollz5481]

I may be taking a break from rogue to play windwalker since in a mw main anways....sad.

[@wesleyvl8572]

Make healer vidoe nexts

[@somebodyelse9696]

RIP Havoc, i guess im playing monk then. Feral and Rogue seem off limits too... wtf

[@StoryoftheYear16]

Insane enhance isn't on here for pure fun

[@tremor1001]

"i tested every melee DPS in the beta"... your missing like 1/3rd of them lol? Enhance, Survival, FrostDK, Feral? Or were they just really mid so didn't really fall into Winner or Loser

[@brandenbrousseau7673]

I was thinking the same. Likely mediocre was omitted.

[@coleharris1945]

In regards to Assassination and tying an ability to ambush being counterintuitive - Blindside exists. Blindside is already taken in the overwhelming majority of builds for Assassin b/c it helps smooth out combo point generation while also not having to pool energy to make the most out of Envenom. So, no. It's not counter intuitive. Additionally, Vanish exists. And is also part of your general rotation. And you have 2 charges. And it's a -relatively- low cooldown. You can also just stealth between pulls. What's interesting about the talent is that, for the most part, you have absolute control over when you proc it. Underwhelming as a hero talent in general? Absolutely. I main Rogue atm, and while I am no Rogue god, I do okay. And I'm quite sad about what they're looking like in TWW. (PS) - I speak plainly. So take it on good faith that nothing said is intended to be inflammatory in case someone decides to try and jump down my throat b/c they arbitrarily decided the tone was disrespectful..

[@Azliaris]

All that and you didn't realise blindside doesn't apply the mark LOL

[@coleharris1945]

@@Azliaris All that and you didn't realize that I'd also mentioned other methods of applying that still mean it's not "counter intuitive". Did ... did you even read beyond the first like 2 sentences? Are did that make you hit your syllable cap for the month?

[@Azliaris]

@@coleharris1945 vanish doesn't even come close making up for the lost of dance , and you would know that if you spent 2 seconds in beta. Not even mentioning how this doubles down on using utility as a damage amp which is universally hated, but keep talking like you have any relevant exp when your very first line already shows you didn't bother reading (too many syllables?) the deathmark tooltip

[@Azliaris]

Deathstalkers mark*

[@coleharris1945]

@@Azliaris Lmfao. No.

[@Chabaaa]

I have a few specs I want to play in TWW but I can't really decide on which to main so these videos really are a big help! Kudos! BTW where can I find the background music?

[@wavy2k]

No Frost Dk or shammy?

[@Asag321]

Shame what they did to rogues because I really wanted to play one as alt but they look like alot of work for medicore results. And I never gonna be good enough on it because I wanna play it only as alt so never gonna get used to all the nuances. I think DK would be better choice for me as melee alt :/

[@davidvann242]

No survival mention, no watchy