Victor Grossman describes good & bad aspects of living in the GDR to Richard Wolff

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"The German Democratic Republic (GDR) in its way, which was very complicated (that I would come to with the bad parts), but it was trying to establish a society where nobody was poor, where poverty was done away with. And it largely succeeded in this. In fact, one of the main things I think of when I go through the streets coming now to visit the States again, in all the years, 38 years I lived there, I didn't see one single person sleeping in a street or one single beggar."
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Victor Grossman, born Stephen Wechsler, a New York red-diaper baby of the 1930s, joined the Communist Party as a Harvard student. Fleeing the U.S. Army during the McCarthy Era, he swam the Danube River to the Soviet Zone of Austria and was sent to East Germany. There, he studied journalism and became a freelance writer and popular speaker. He was pardoned by the U.S. Army in 1994 and, in 2003, published an autobiography, Crossing the River: A Memoir of the American Left, the Cold War, and Life in East Germany ((U. of Mass.Press). Victor Grossman will be visiting Washington, DC from May 15-May 18 on a national book tour of his latest book weighing problems of GDR socialism and modern capitalism entitled A Socialist Defector: From Harvard to Karl-Marx-Allee by Monthly Review press.

[@Beery1962]

He talks about the lack of a free press as if we have a free press here in the USA. A press owned by corporations is no more "free" than one owned by the government.

[@Beery1962]

@Johan van Breda But it's not free. Sure, the people working there report on what they want to report in the way they want to report it. But that's because the people hiring them are careful to weed out the folks who haven't internalized the mainstream narrative. And the free press that is not pro-corporate is marginalized and demonized. That is not a free press. A truly free press would range between widely varying political stances. But that's not what happens in the USA. There is no mainstream press that takes a socialist standpoint. All we get is a conservative pro-war and pro-capitalist viewpoint. That is evidence that the mainstream press is not free.

[@Beery1962]

@Johan van Breda Wow! I haven't seen a comment that so completely misunderstands socialism in a long time. The whole point of socialism is to serve human need, you fucking moron. And I'm not "looking" for a socialist standpoint. My point is that if it isn't a part of the mainstream media, there isn't a free press. How on Earth can you write coherent sentences yet you don't even understand that?

[@smithmiddleton8893]

@Johan van Breda A company owned and run by the state is far more owned by the people than one in the hands of a tiny minority of rich shareholders.

[@Rus-bw2oq]

Actually the press in the East- block was much more trustworthy than Western press.

[@smithmiddleton8893]

@Johan van Breda Marx said the opposite.

[@jimtroy4380]

By my opinion the most important issue is the disadvantage that GDR as Eastern Germany was the most destroyed part of Germany during WWII. With the least industrial power and fewer people. It is actually a miracle for developing as much as it did. BadmouseProductions has a very interesting video on it

[@johannageisel5390]

The East also took in the most refugees from the eastern territories.

[@AlexCab_49]

East germany also payed reparations to USSR.

[@AlexCab_49]

@fireson23 im not sure if GDR payed WW1 reperations as well but ill have to resaerch that.

[@TheSleepyowlet]

@fireson23 West Germany was also supposed to pay a share of reparations to the SU - but due to the Cold War this never happened. But after the Reunifuckation (yes, I will forever call it that) Russia noticed that they were still owed money - and the payments were split evenly across all 16 federal states of Germany. So Est Germany had to pay _twice._ Fun!

[@southeparkfreak]

@@TheSleepyowlet "So Est Germany had to pay twice. Fun!" I'm sure that's more than made up for with the solidarity tax that was introduced after reunification.

[@JW-uy2on]

In the USA, anyone who disagrees with American exceptionalism or capitalism is excluded from the media and political process and surveilled by the FBI. And there are homeless people and beggars everywhere.

[@BB-kt5eb]

John W No they’re not. They may not win any elections or be very popular, but they’re free to espouse those views and the Stasi won’t come lock them up over it.

[@armandovaiandando6472]

@@BB-kt5eb Are you even aware of what the cointelpro was?

[@s.a928]

Yeh but I’m the USA you’re not thrown in jail or forced out of your job for disagreeing.

[@JW-uy2on]

@@s.a928 Tell that to the Black Panthers still rotting in jail for disagreeing with white supremacy.

[@matthewkopp2391]

S. A In the USA a lot of people lost their jobs for being communist or socialist. In the DDR there was political oppression but you would keep your job. You actually had worker rights. There were also multiple political parties including a liberal party of free enterprise but all final decisions were made by the communist party. In the USA all final decisions are made by neither the Democrats or Republicans but by Goldman Sachs and Citigroup.

[@WORLDCITIZEN10]

38 years don't see homeless and bigger on Street amazing bring this person again.

[@missanna208802]

There were no homeless because they were shot. This is the same way the communist revolution in china solved their drug problem. You still get death in china for drugs to this very day, but back then, they executed the whole family.

[@sparkz9502]

@@missanna208802 You can't possibly believe this for real, right? Pure delusion.

[@alexandrebouvier7731]

People with mental health disorders were parked in an asylum. Misery was just hiden by the regime. But yes, overall their social protection system was good...

[@hansmuller4338]

​@@missanna208802 There were no homeless because everybody was given a place to live, without huge burdens like bureaucracy or money or shit. It was SOCIAL aka helping other humans -ISM after all. @missanna208802 are you asshole spreading these lies on purpose, are you a fascist or something?

[@johnhire6086]

missanna208802 sources: dude trust me

[@franzsohn7676]

I lived in Ukraine during the USSR. It's always saddening to listen to people talk about the Socialist world. I want my homeland back, and it hurts to remember what we lost.

[@Natadangsa]

And now Ukraine is the world's Neo-Nazi Capital

[@kayvan671]

@@Natadangsa No. Its a great Country with friendly people.

[@Natadangsa]

@@kayvan671 That is not an excuse. I live in Indonesia, and the people here are great and friendly, but equally fascistic in nature due to decades of NATO-backed dictatorship.

[@erichhonecker8548]

God bless both of you gentlemen and the veterans who served in the GDR!

[@kayvan671]

Die DDR gibt es nicht mehr 😝😝😝

[@kayvan671]

@Gefreiter Carter Thank God, we Germans got rid of Honecker.

[@SuperZed21]

When people criticize the former socialist countries such as the USSR and East Germany, or even the present day socialist states such as China, they often point to the issue of a lack of freedom of speech. It is important to note the difference between freedoms guaranteed in theory in a constitution and freedoms actually obtainable in practice. In theory americans have freedom of speech as afforded to them by the constitution, however the constitution does not protect them from censorship by their employers, family members who you might be financially dependent on, censorship in the sense of how police target certain groups more with laws than others, just to name a few things. So in practice in the United States freedom of speech is only obtainable by people who are wealthy enough not to have to depend on others or an employer for their livelihood to live. Same thing with the right to vote, in theory people in the us have the right to vote but in practice voter ID laws, felon disenfranchisement, long voter lines, gerrymandering, the electoral college, the filibuster, money in politics often muddle this ability to vote or the results of said votes in practice.

[@Abyssus93]

in practice freedom of speech does more harm than good anyway

[@AngloAm]

The point of freedom of the press and speech is not to create a consequence-free speech, but rather to stop the government from restricting that which can be said. The constution (1st Amendment) can't and ought not protect people from the consequences of their boss (a freely-entered into relationship), family (an utterly private one). And the fact that BLM for example or this KZbin exists shows that even 'targeted' groups (if one accepts your judgement) are still free, if not inconvenienced, in their expression. Were you ever in a communist country?

[@suneetasingh8621]

DDR kinda reminds me of my parents. They try to do everything they can to keep me happy but if I piss them of......

[@Dew2Much]

i can relate haha

[@kayvan671]

Yeah...no...

[@AGoat1971]

Would your parents disappear, shoot, or jail you if you wanted to leave home and go to another country?

[@HenrikBSWE]

​@@AGoat1971Our friend suneetasingh8621's parents wants everyone to know that he, willingly and of sound mind, is getting a new education, and that he is doing well and is healthy. He is also very regretful about the rude and misguided comments he made about his beloved parents.

[@darioslowww6337]

He said that if you used to say something "wrong" with the government you could get little problems. Guess what? It still happens now. So?

[@colourinmyrainbow]

Exactly! Look at Assange incarcerated under 'democracy' by the EU, US and UK... all complicit. Democracy has been perverted...

[@AGoat1971]

They jailed and disappeared people who caused 'little problems' at a much higher rate than most.

[@AngloAm]

Little problems as in you child might not get into university. Your job may be taken away and you'd have to work in menial labour (no labour unions, precious few safety regulations) despite your qualification. And in the end, you could be jailed.

[@topster888]

The GDR was so great that they had to build a wall to keep everyone from leaving!

[@acutechicken5798]

The wrong Germany united with the other!!!

[@kayvan671]

Only according to you. I'm an East German and thank God, we got reunited with West Germany. The Communist dicatorship hat to go!

[@jakekaywell5972]

@@kayvan671 Only according to a significant amount of former East Germans. You're 23 years old according to prior comments. You're not an East German in the political sense at any time in your life.

[@PowersOfDarkness]

the bad things: it was like other states the good things: less suffering than in other states

[@lepetitchat123]

Well the western countries do have the freedom of the press, of course it's another matter what one can do with all that information. Most people know the system is fucked up but they are powerless to do anything about it.

[@peterenis8447]

Another bad thing was you got shot when you tried to climb a certain wall in Berlin

[@Dew2Much]

basically

[@kayvan671]

No. The bad things: no freedom to travel, poverty, Stasi and a one party system.

[@PowersOfDarkness]

@@kayvan671 the bad things was some political repression throughout society, something the entire west at the time had equally and in cases more of. you say there was no freedom to travel but thats not true, people could still travel, and while poverty existed, it was never to the same level of poverty as could be found in the west, it had almost always been and continues to be the poorer less industrialized side of Germany, but despite that, they had welfare and a social safety net, so despite most in the east being poorer than most in the west, poverty in the east never reached as low as poverty in the west did, people could still live their lives in the east. the stasi were nothing special to east germany and pretending it was is weird. and while they had a one party system, its important to look at the conception of the party under socialism, as its distinct from the capitalist one, in which they are competing cliques with small degree of democracy inside the party, mostly related to the democracy of the financial backers of the parties, while the socialist conception sees the party as an open democratic system that is an extension of democracy to something that goes far beyond just a single vote every few years, something more active and alive, something more far reaching into peoples lives.

[@neptunefog6082]

Gove me free college and medicalcare i do jot give a fck about the press

[@Maconhaepaz]

I am reading his book right now

[@Dutch_Uncle]

This from Wickipedia: In 1954, Grossman was recruited as an informant by the East German Ministry of State Security (MfS, or "Stasi"), codename TAUCHER ("Diver") I see him as a valued witness to the times, a victim of McCarhyism, able to make the transition both to East Germany and then from East Germany to a reunified Germany.

[@redpilledfrogue]

Very interesting to hear this perspective from a person from the GDR, about the GDR.

[@Vivacious_Lenin]

this is a great man

[@yari4046]

He echoes a lot of things that I hear from my mother who lived in former yugoslavia, she told me that people could walk through the street at night completely drunk and not fear getting robbed or attack even in the slightest because they all already had enough so that even the idea of robbing somebody seemed absurd. Nowadays criminality and poverty are a normal part of everyday life.

[@dempa3]

Best Prof. Wolff, This was a very interesting video! One of the negative things Victor Grossman mentioned about life in DDR, was the lack of products. In the Western world, life in DDR is far too often described to have been unbearable because of political repression. I believe that for ideological and propaganda reasons the importance of the political repression is often overstated, while the importance of access to different products is understated, since it sounds more "noble". In reality, access to good quality products is of great importance. Additionally, I suspect that DDR was better supplied than many other socialist countries, to counteract the intense propaganda war over the radio and TV that took place there. With this background I would like to ask about socialism, economy and the production of goods for consumption by the public. You have mentioned previously in some lectures that the Soviet Union showed, initially, great economic growth and development. Later on though, the economic development stagnated, which affected the average citizens access to basic goods, and discontent grew in the population. Could the initial growth of the Soviet Union be attributed to socialistic economic policies, or is it to a larger extent explained by the fact that the Soviet leaders worked with the aim to modernize and develop the country with the technology available at the time, unlike the more conservative monarchy of the Russian Empire? Secondly, and maybe even more important, what caused the economic stagnation? I'd really appreciate answers to these questions, since I believe it could help us to pick up proven successful strategies, and avoid previous mistakes. Many thanks in advance!

[@McHobotheBobo]

Free market "reforms," one of the first nails in the coffin was Krushchev moving them from a piecemeal wage system (worker pay per-unit) to an hourly wage system (make more units in an hour than some other guy? Same hourly wage) really cut people's engagement with the system. I highly recommend the work of Grover Furr or Michael Parenti on the USSR, and FinnBol here on youtube does some solid work. Not as well cited as Parenti and Furr but a perspective that is hard to find and still backed by fact

[@dempa3]

@@McHobotheBobo Big thanks for the suggestions! I'll be sure to check them out!

[@romanyarkov8426]

В СССР было тоже самое, это неправда. Особый дефицит продуктов питания возник ближе к 90м годам.

[@romanyarkov8426]

Бананы были в очень большом дефиците всегда. Покупали даже зеленые бананы. А в остальном все было неплохо. Я был маленьким, но я помню и шоколад, и мороженное, и консервированные ананасы, и сладкое консервированное молоко, и торты и булочки и соки🤣 но соков было немного - яблочный, томатный и виноградный

[@TheSleepyowlet]

The SU went bankrupt and stagnant because they were forced into an arms race against the US that they could not hope to win. Remember: the US had 100 Years of a head-start; they already did large scale industrial production when most of Russia was still locked in agricultural Feudalism. If it had been possible to put all those resources into the infrastructure and social support systems, things would have looked a lot different!

[@unclestuka8543]

Given time the DDR could have adapted after the fall of the S.U. kept the good bits and granted freedom of travel etc.. you would soon see people returning to a better way of life and a more traditional German way of life . I think it could have become a Swtzerland of the east. Russia should have been brought in to share the future and guarantee 2 Germany's........Instead what have we got, NATO right up against Russia, a new cold war and total non dialogue. The only thing Thatcher was correct on....I want to keep 2 Germany's

[@kayvan671]

No. We Germans are a unified Country. Not divided! We are now one Country and there is nothing you can do about it!

[@unclestuka8543]

@@kayvan671 I love Germany so much I wanted 2 of them ! so did Mrs Thatcher.

[@kayvan671]

@@unclestuka8543 The rest of the world not! So we really don't care what you or Thatcher said. We Germans are now a unified Country and there is nothing you can do about it.

[@unclestuka8543]

@@kayvan671 Gorbechov was duped into letting DDR go. Helmet K took advantage and W Germany got lucky. That doesnt mean Europeans were happy about it.

[@kayvan671]

@@unclestuka8543 Doesnt matter! Because we Germans are happy about reunification. And thankfully it happend.

[@rolfen]

Lack of government oppression is different than freedom of the press. There is always someone who wants to shut down the press when the press is doing a good job. So it needs safeguards, active protection and rights to operate freely.

[@francescogorbechov4192]

Deutsches Demokratiches Republik

[@kayvan671]

Demokratisch? Hahahaha *Guter Witz*

[@tertommy]

Texas debacle would not happen in DDR.

[@teutguy1]

Well? not sure about that...and you probably wouldn't have heard about it....they buried a lot of things in the DDR.

[@UncleZhou49]

Does anyone perceive the contradiction between having free education but no freedom of the press?

[@ayatollxh6539]

Free education provided by the state mind you, the natural reaction for this is to not criticize the state through the press or else it will promote more capitalistic ideas and shift away from welfare programs. I dislike a strict regime but I can understand why they have to do it.

[@henryseidel5469]

There is no contradition. Free education means noone has to pay for it. While freedom of the press does not exist at all - it is but a political propaganda cliché.

[@anasibrahim8178]

the same everywhere not just in the gdr. i would like to know where do you draw the line between education and indoctrination

[@deliciousjayjayjohnson7426]

An American hero

[@cayminlast]

Just the thought of not being able to voice your personal opinions, and living in an 'open prison' kind of existence is not a way to live ones life. How many innocent lives were taken by the GDR government because they were assumed as a non-conformist.

[@felicetanka]

The press and the church.

[@mattluszczak8095]

Wasnt there a celebrity chef in gdr had to stop his cooking tv show.because couldnt get gis groceries? Says a lot there?

[@davidleonard3887]

Someone said it best why live in the USA now

[@henryseidel5469]

Living in the US is the result of a permanent illusion. When walking through the streets you will wake up.

[@AlexCab_49]

So in DDR you were taken well care of but there was state repression and even state surveillance.

[@AlexCab_49]

@Desk Same here

[@JW-uy2on]

In the USA, you are not well taken care of and there is state repression and surveillance.

[@BB-kt5eb]

You won’t deal with anything nearly as threatening to your civil liberties as that of the Stasi and you’ll always have your day in court. You also don’t have to fear that 1 in every 4 people are acting as informants of a secret police apparatus. Sure, you get an apartment for free that you have to wait up to 20 years for and you can get a car if you wait another 10 years. You might get a phone if you can wait 5 years too. Oh and you’ll get free healthcare, but you’ll wait forever if you need things like MRI or complex procedures and when you get old, your level of care will significantly diminish because you’re no longer useful to their system. I realize insurance comps do this to a degree now, but there’s no comparison when you consider the levels to which it occurred between the two nations.

[@darioslowww6337]

@@BB-kt5eb Well, actually in my country the situation it's almost the same and surprise: people have to sell their kidneys to get cured in a private facility. Does this look fair to you? "You can afford it, you can cure yourself otherwise go fuck yourself"...

[@BB-kt5eb]

Dario Slowww I don’t know what country you’re in, but that’s really fucked up. It sounds like you’re living somewhere that that the economy, general social order, and government collapsed and nothing was able to move in and stabilize the situation, thus you’re left being ruled by the equivalent of mob thugs who r created an oligarchy. They plunder what wealth remains for themselves instead of re-establishing a system to provide a base infrastructure again and restore order, therefore you’re left with absolute chaos that’s almost like anarchy, but they keep you under their watch just to make sure no one comes after the resources they’ve hordes up for themselves that are supposed to be for the running of a functional government. That’s a sad situation and I hope the people of your country can band together and form an effective coup to overthrow such rulers and establish a legitimate government that will actually work for the good of the people and not just themselves and their cronies.

[@avus-kw2f213]

1:38 now that’s real communism isn’t that right 🇨🇳

[@whitepuppy838]

Well... try to open your mouth in your work place in front of the boss. You'll see the lack of perks, benefits and promotions 😂

[@jjsc4396]

“A degree of repression”?!? 😮 Mate, you were caged-in & absolutely could be chucked into a Stasi prison for YEARS for criticising the GDR or some political class stooge.

[@henryseidel5469]

You must have suffered a lot there. I lived in East Germany for over thirty years, and I never met or saw one of those Stasis. Only after the revolution of 1989 they became more and more in the tales of the trivial press.

[@JohnAsparagus96]

It's a shame you can't seem to have the best of both worlds, or something socially liberal/libertarian and economically socialist.

[@elliotbaker3757]

just like American then, people losing there jobs for saying things all the time

[@prieten49]

I would give the GDR credit for coming close to the "real existing socialism" that they always boasted of. Certainly the basic needs of the population were met as far as employment, education, health care, housing, food and cultural offerings were concerned. However, man does not live by bread alone. Travel to the West was almost impossible. Real democracy with elections where you could select candidates was nonexistent. The incessant requirement to participate in rallies and parades came to be resented. Contrary to what Mr. Grossman said, East Germans knew they had to be careful what they said even in private. Tens of thousands of "Unofficial Collaborators" were everywhere and dutifully reported even those who only told jokes about the government. The official secret police was feared everywhere. This constant state of repression along with the ever deteriorating standard of living beginning in the 1980s made the desire to leave grow to the point that it exploded in 1989 with thousands fleeing through Hungary. By then, the forced retirement of Honecker could not save the GDR from its ultimate demise.

[@kayvan671]

Thank God, the GDR doesnt exist anymore.

[@thomasmessina4119]

Ok you have so many things that are wrong here. People from East Germany could travel to West Germany and also the way around. There was a period neither side could pass since neither Republic recognize each other, but after the 70's they could. Now traveling to the western countries was prohibited because they where in the middle of a Cold war, people from the West couldn't go to the east. I see you forget of all the times, that the USSr with Stalin actually tried to convince the other allied forces to make one united Germany, neutral, with full on democracy, but the west refused to this creating the GFR. Also the Stasi part is really said, yes there was Stasi, because the GFR creating it's own secret service with old Nazis and gestapo members. There was democracy, this is testified by people who lived in the GDR. It is true do by the late 70's and 80's revisionist bureaucracy became strong and they choosed whatever they wanted. The real problem was that when Stalin died, Krushev took over and he imposed bureaucracy and the road back to capitalism. That's what led to the bureaucracy and the mistakes. Also the Stasi was there because there was a real treat for example the wall was built because the Western German secret service and the CIA were carrying out sabotages, attacks in the GDR, and also in order to prevent a war they decided to build the wall. The CIA and West Germany had a plan invasion of the GDR. As a community I can say there was mistakes of course, but the GDR was really good when the US carried out the establishment of fascist dictatorships in Latin America the GDR was there for us. So there is a lot of lies, but there were mistakes ans we have to learn from them. We have to learn not to let revisionism in and go back to the actual democracy there was during the Marxist Leninist times.

[@thomasmessina4119]

Also met a lot of East Germans , no they were not reported for making jokes, actually according to them they had freedom of speech untill the 80's. Also they said media use to criticize the government until 80's. And just so you know Honecker was an actual Marxist Leninist he fought against the ones that were imposing the so called "repression" also just so you know there was various ministers in the government that were from other parties, the CDU, liberal ect. Gorgachov actually was the one that forced Honecker to resing, since Gorgachov the traitor revived 200 million dollars from the IFM to let the GDR fall.

[@prieten49]

@@thomasmessina4119 This is the saddest revisionism of history I have read in a long time. It is good to see there are still Stalinists like you out there who think Stalin and his crazy purges were just wonderful, until Khrushchev came along and introduced capitalism! Ha! Ha! I haven't had such a good laugh in a long time. No, people could not move freely at any time between the two Germanies. Before the Berlin Wall, "Republikflucht" was already a crime, if a lot easier to accomplish. Only senior citizens were allowed to travel to the West because the East Germans hoped they would stay and not burden the meager pension system in the GDR. "Reliable" citizens on official business could perhaps travel to the West but certainly not with any family members. But you are so contradictory here, saying people were free to travel and then saying they couldn't travel to the West "because of the Cold War." No, the whole world knows exactly why the Berlin Wall and 1,300 kilometers of electrified and land-mined border fences were built: to prevent East Germans from fleeing to the West. And the Stasi! You think the East Germans had to have their own Gestapo because the West had theirs? No, they needed their own Gestapo to spy on their own population! They had over 80,000 "unofficial collaborators" who reported regularly to the Stasi on the conversations and activities of their coworkers, friends, relatives, and even spouses! But why am I wasting my finger tips? Your are a convinced Latin American Marxist-Leninist who has absolutely no idea of what life was like in East Germany. I am a German. I have studied East Germany extensively and I have lived in a former East German state. So you go on and dream about "actual democracy" in Marxism-Leninism but don't announce to the public that you know absolutely nothing about history.

[@henryseidel5469]

@@kayvan671Did you ever live there ?

[@briandelaney9710]

Stasi I would say was a big bad point

[@henryseidel5469]

What did they do to you ?? I lived in East Germany for thirty five years, but I never saw any of them. They worked in terms of political security - as any other secret service in the world does.

[@sanford943]

all the good things were nice, but who wants to live in a place where there were basically no freedoms and every thing was controlled by the state. You were not allowed to travel. You would be shot trying escape. What kind of country is that to live in? If you saw Bridge of Spies. East Berlin did not seem like the place any one would not to live. I believe he said he was Jewish. Back then why would any any Jew want to live in East Germany much less Germany. While you can now travel safely to all of Germany you couldn't do so when I was stationed in Germany for 3 years. First of all it was a bit difficult to get a pass to go to Berlin. I did not do so. If you drove, you were told not to get off the autobahn in the eastern sector. For a jewish person it was a bit eerie being stationed there. For one thing it was only 25 years after the war ended. I always wondered older people were doing during the war. And I did go to Dachau. To think of all the people that went through there and other camps. These days it is really hard for me to read anything about the war years. I just finished a book called the Beileski Brothers. They were Russian but living in areas where the Germans had captured lands. The Brothers ended up saving about a 1000 jews, while living in the forests. It was not always easy. But reading what the Germans did is quite horrifying. Obviously you can't blame the children for the sins of their parents or grand parents. I had fun there and was able to travel around Europe, but I don't think I would ever want to live there.

[@skullz291]

I can't speak to your personal experience, but no freedoms, state repression, and no travel describes the reality for _most_ people under capitalism, even in places like the US, _right now._ Sure, _on paper_ you have freedoms, if you have money, and you're white, and you're not doing anything to piss off people in power. You have to remember that the Soviets were basically under attack from the day they were formed to the day they collapsed. And they could not reciprocate this pressure to their assailants. The US today has more prisoners, in total or per capita, than any other nation in history. And when you take into account things like COINTELPRO, or the uprisings of the 60's, or the virtual police state that exists today if you put a fucking toe out of line, it really only _seems_ less repressive. And for literally tens of millions of people in this country, it _is_ an authoritarian hellhole, even before we started torturing people and separating children from their parents and all that. And this is ignoring that the prosperity of the West is built on the subjugation of the global south. The wealth that it enjoys comes from the privatization enforced by gunpoint on virtually every other country. Even the comment I'm typing this on comes from a phone built with massive exploitation, reliant on rare minerals like coltan mined by _literal child slaves_ in Africa. Something which we ruthlessly enforce anytime a country tries to organize to change it. That context has to be taken into account when making these criticisms. Wealth doesn't come from nowhere. It's only by ignoring the supply chain can you comfortably say, "I prefer this."

[@McHobotheBobo]

The US still has slavery and it was never abolished. 13th amendment prohibits involuntary servitude and enslavement except as punishment for a crimw, and now we have private prisons. They're gonna fill them somehow.....

[@hamadi03]

what freedoms are you talking about, and who could afford to travel in there first place and was that such a big deal as opposed to having economic security and not dying because you cannot get good health care. It is matter of values. I am a black man living in America and I feel I have never had in freedom and are constantly wondering if I will have a job tomorrow for an opportunity for education for dye because the medical care available for the rich is not available for me. It is a matter of values dude, not freedom

[@sanford943]

@@hamadi03 so you are not the only person black or white that has to worry about your job or where your next meal is coming from. And I understand that black people have it tougher than most. However there are immigrants that are coming in to the country that have far worse than most people born here. And no doubt a lot of people would give up a lot of their freedoms to have even health care. On the other hand I dont want to be shot for trying to leave my country

[@dempa3]

@@sanford943, and everyone else: There will always be someone who is worse off. Therefore, instead of a "race to the bottom", let us identify the "trap of the mind" here. These things are often presented like you have to chose the one or the other. In reality we should build a society where you don't get shot and also have health care, where you have free college, and also sometimes even have the luxury to enjoy bananas. :)