Vigilantes: From Penny to Mangione | Glenn Loury & John McWhorter | The Glenn Show

[@GlennLouryShow]

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[@nicobruin8618]

Penny did not go on the subway that day looking to play hero. Calling him a vigilante is a misuse of the term.

[@efflux89]

Great point!

[@briane173]

Well it's certainly not the first time that a group of radical ideologues have engaged in hyperbole and euphemism to make their argument. The Left are _masters_ at this, and BLM has put it on steroids to the point where it's laughable.

[@wild62meg47]

"Vigilante" according to Cambridge dictionary: "A vigilante is a person who tries to prevent or punish crime without official authority." That applies to Penny.

[@briane173]

@@wild62meg47 By that definition anyone who acts in self-defense could be termed a "vigilante." It doesn't give any regard to the context or intent involved in the action. "Vigilante" traditionally applies to a _group_ of individuals acting to prevent or avenge crime extrajudicially. That was never Penny's intent; the context of his actions was self-defense and defense of fellow riders from an imminent threat of harm by another person.

[@JackieW892]

@@wild62meg47 If Penny acted solely to neutralize a perceived threat and had no intent to punish or harm Neely unnecessarily, his actions align more with self-defense rather than vigilantism.

[@thelawfus]

20:00 Penny did NOT take it upon himself to subdue Neely. There were others who also subdued Neely (including some blacks).

[@justmyopinion9883]

But, Penny is the only one who put Neely in a chokehold.

[@thelawfus]

@ how many people do you think can participate at the same time? Did anyone on that car with him testify that he did the wrong thing?

[@justmyopinion9883]

You don’t need to be there to know he did the wrong thing. Penny could have held Neely down without taking his life.

[@jamesbizs]

@@justmyopinion9883you’re right. He didn’t take his life tho. The guy died hours later. Full of drugs. But cool story

[@justmyopinion9883]

Did you do a toxicology test on him to see if he had drugs in his body? Would he have died if he had the same amount of drugs in his body, if he had not been put in a chokehold? Do you think if Daniel Penny was Black and Jordan Neely was Whyte, the verdict would have been the same?

[@jewelswanson9372]

Great discussion today Glen and John

[@keithmarkman617]

I think that in general there are way more Glenn fans here than John fans. That's not to say that John is not deserving of some of the criticism leveled at him. But here we see the deepest humanity of John come forth. I found his description of his experience in Berkeley in the aftermath of 9/11 to be very moving.

[@k4yser]

Even suggesting Penny is a vigilante and on a similar level as the CEO assassin is a disgrace

[@nursemcfarlane6655]

Both individuals murdered hunan beings.

[@BrandonHeat243]

​@@nursemcfarlane6655So did Jeffery Damher and Andrew Jackson. Guess they are all the same ehh?

[@jakobjas4212]

@@nursemcfarlane6655 One was self defense/defense of others, the other was an execution.

[@voxer99]

@@nursemcfarlane6655 Penny killed someone but it certainly wasn't murder.

[@FactCheckerGuy]

@@nursemcfarlane6655 No. Penny did not murder anyone. A murder is by definition immoral and illegal.

[@keithmarkman617]

I grew up on the NYC subways. John nailed it- first detain, then afterwards we can talk about appropriate assistance for a clearly disturbed individual. Yes, it was tragic that he died but simply allowing menacing individuals to roam subway cars with impunity is unacceptable.

[@onceagain6184]

Criminally negligent homicide should really be unacceptable! Penny should have been convicted!

[@mountaindew7190]

@@onceagain6184 Daniel Penny's actions on the subway to protect his fellow passengers was an outlier. There usually is no one like him. This Tuesday (December 17) a 17 year old girl was knifed on the left side of the face inside the 161st-Yankee stadium subway station. No Daniel Penny was there. Just hours later, the same day, a passenger was stabbed in a subway car in Brooklyn by a shouting maniac. The 32 year old victim said, "I was coming home from work...Then a guy came into the train and started to yell things at me. I didn't pay attention to him because I thought he was crazy. But then he hit me, he stabbed me with something in the chest and my arm." There was no Daniel Penny there either. After Penny's prosecution and near conviction, you probably will never see or hear of anyone like him again because people have gotten the message from his case loud and clear: Don't even think of intervening to protect or defend anyone else from an aggressive or crazy individual. Mind your own business and look away or get away while others get beaten, slashed/stabbed, or killed.

[@chrisgriffin5184]

Much respect to You guys. I truly enjoy all your work and the logical and intellectual analysis you smart men bring to pressing questions of our times. Never stop, never quit never hold back and continue to challenge. I see both of you as brave academics who add a lot of integrity and experience to these conversations.

[@dennishayes65]

Thank you for the enlightened conversations gentleman.

[@dalnim4294]

Love you guys

[@shamsam4]

Merry Christmas!

[@BeanMacdui]

Merry Christmas to you as well!

[@alementary4065]

It's amazing how balanced and erudite John can be so long as the topic isn't Trump.

[@dongrinolds140]

Penny did not kill him. He was still alive when the chock hold was let up. He was on drugs and his dad failed him.

[@flutebasket4294]

Yep. And his heart exploded from hypertension. It's something that seems to happen to them a lot....

[@justmyopinion9883]

If he was still alive when the chokehold was let up, why was he still lying there motionless? Even Penny knows that he took Neely's life. He has never said otherwise.

[@flutebasket4294]

@@justmyopinion9883 Cuz his little heart exploded, Jayquon. Keep coping over your criminal cousin

[@jamesbizs]

@@justmyopinion9883LOL wtf are you talking about. This isn’t a debate. He was alive after the choke hold. He died later. This is literally a fact that has never been argued.

[@thelocodragon]

Glen get your facts straight. Neely was alive at the hospital where they took an ante-mortum blood sample.

[@estecnukeops9167]

Just two of the most brilliant people on youtube here. And two of the most decent as well.

[@jamesbizs]

LOLOL

[@chrisikaris5891]

Daniel Penny's actions on the subway to protect his fellow passengers was an outlier. There usually is no one like him. This Tuesday (December 17) a 17 year old girl was knifed on the left side of the face inside the 161st-Yankee stadium subway station. No Daniel Penny was there. Just hours later, the same day, a passenger was stabbed in a subway car in Brooklyn by a shouting maniac. The 32 year old victim said, "I was coming home from work...Then a guy came into the train and started to yell things at me. I didn't pay attention to him because I thought he was crazy. But then he hit me, he stabbed me with something in the chest and my arm." There was no Daniel Penny there either. After Penny's prosecution and near conviction, you probably will never see or hear of anyone like him again because people have gotten the message from his case loud and clear: Don't even think of intervening to protect or defend anyone else from an aggressive and/or mentally ill individual. Mind your own business and look away or get away while others get beaten, slashed/stabbed, or killed.

[@Aquos2000]

😢

[@mauinix4563]

The last thing I want is for John to ever think I'm a "certain kind of person" 🤣🤣

[@SteeleHand]

Glenn : Aren't you intolerant to Trump John : No, because I'm smarter than those who call me intolerant

[@Getsitdone]

Sorry to listen to this show since I've seen /heard Sean's response to Donald j. Trump

[@dennisobrien3133]

I’ve been choked out more than once and you are rendered unconscious rather quickly if it’s done correctly. I do not know all the case details but I know it takes about 5 seconds to put a person to sleep.

[@marsspacex6065]

I never knew Coates had said that about the firefighters. I thought I had a low opinion of him before but after hearing that I think Coates view of the world is really horrific. To be that entrenched in your own bias shows how far gone he is and some on the left are really beyond reason and human feeling.

[@scottmitchell1974]

One of John's lefty weaknesses is his reluctance to demonize THE DEMONIC.

[@ghrohrs2025]

These men couldn't be more different. I feel 100% authenticity from Glenn. I sense a lot of cleverness and cautious cowardice from John.

[@smitty923]

American gems

[@glennmitchell9107]

Anti-racism and affirmative action aren't societal obligations. They are individual charity. Voluntary acts are always more virtuous (and almost always more effective) than involuntary acts.

[@flutebasket4294]

Above everything they are anti-White

[@justmyopinion9883]

Is Whyte supremacy a societal obligation?

[@flutebasket4294]

@@justmyopinion9883 No, it doesn't exist

[@justmyopinion9883]

LOL! 😂😂😂

[@glennmitchell9107]

@@flutebasket4294 If anything is supreme, if it isn't white, then what is it? Purple?

[@IOFrimpong]

Someone has to deny a claim, but it's a bit ghoulish to support it being United Healthcare's AI program. Why not have it decide criminal sentencing, too?

[@briane173]

27:02 I doubt that it's going to encourage more "vigilantism" or "heroics" from other riders to subdue unruly passengers on a subway -- not when Alvin Bragg has demonstrated what sort of hell the Prosecutor's Office will put those people through if they dare lift a finger to protect their fellow riders. I think it would be quite the opposite -- people who would rather NOT get involved and take their chances with a nutjob on the subway out of fear that if they step in they'll be dragged by their feet through the town square and pilloried by a justice system that is supposedly there to _protect_ them, not persecute them.

[@mediadrive802]

What does John say at 45:18?

[@chimichangacharles]

Glenn and John, please refresh yourselves on the facts of the Penny case. Neely did not die to asphyxia. Penny was not choking him.

[@b03johnso]

We often can see ourselves in the same light that we see others. John does exactly what he attempts to accuse others of. He appears to be moving farther to the left side. However, I still love and respect him.

[@michaelweber5702]

"He needs to be cared for" really? in that situation? God Glenn , he needed to be stopped in that situation . Being cared for is for a different , a different situation !

[@matt6587]

I resonate with Glenn's spirit that violence is wrong. And I also think (and have experienced) there is a strong case to be made that profiting off health care can be a kind of violence and, in that, should be equally abhorred. I understand Glenn is saying, in part, that there are limitations to what's possible and that there is inevitably a cut-off point (in terms of what a system can cover). I think this elides the real issue which is the focus/the goal of the system. If the focus/goal and criteria of the system were indicators of well-being, i.e. quality of health outcomes, (rather than quantity served, let's say), then I'd be more ready to accept Glenn's point about limitations. In other words, if we're doing everything we can within reason to ensure high quality health care and well-being for all, and that is the focus of what we're doing, then I could be more assured that we are indeed fostering a humane system, even with inevitable limitations. However, since the focus of health insurance agencies is profit, then I can't get behind this "well, there's a limitation somewhere." Indeed, Glenn has frequently made it clear he is for capitalism and markets (i.e. freedom, etc). And, I suppose I would hope he can appreciate that playing the market game with people's well-being is actually at odds with many of his other apparent values (including, I would say, his passionate rejection of unnecessary violence in this very conversation).

[@conradhicks6354]

Well stated Matt!! Love this analysis. Spot-on.

[@deschain1910]

It's highly questionable to me that the choke hold killed him, or at least that alone. I thought he was alive still when the authorities arrived, and that would be impossible if the actual choke was being applied the whole time he was being held. You can hold someone in that position without actually applying the choke, and it wouldn't be visible from the outside. It's the difference between applying enough pressure to close off blood flow on the sides of the neck and only applying enough pressure to hold the person in place. The choke has nothing to do with blocking breath. One will knock out and eventually kill, while the other will simply hold the person in place, but both would look exactly the same to an observer.

[@user-fb5oz9fh1b]

Getting into weeds, a choke hold cuts off one’s ability to breathe. What that means is Oxygen doesn’t get to the brain contributing to death. Separately, why is a choke hold necessary since it is generally a banned process by the police. If there is a need to subdue someone, there are other means. I am familiar with the subway and yes, almost daily someone gets on the train and acts crazy. Does he or she deserve to die??? The person was military trained; I question whether it was an accident.

[@deschain1910]

@@user-fb5oz9fh1b I was pedantically correcting something Glenn said when referring to breath. "Breathe" is defined as drawing air into the lungs, so no the choke hold does not cut off one's ability to breathe. The "choke" is applied to the blood vessels on the sides of the neck. It stops oxygen getting to the brain, but that is not what the word "breath" refers to. When properly done and applied, this type of choke hold is a very safe and quick way to render someone unconscious WITHOUT killing them. I have personal experience with both being knocked out by it and applying it and you can see it used in UFC and other combat sports all the time, even though they ban plenty of unsafe maneuvers. The police ban it most likely for two reasons: 1. They're afraid of poor applications. 2. Bad optics When the choke is actually actively applied, a person will be unconscious within seconds, and will die not long afterwards. There is no way that he was actively applying the choke the whole time he was holding him, otherwise he would have been completely definitively dead by the time the authorities arrived. The question remains as to how long he was actively applying the choke, because it simply wouldn't be visible on camera or to any bystander. This might be another reason police ban it for their officers.

[@FactCheckerGuy]

@@user-fb5oz9fh1b There are asphyxiating chokes that cut off breath and take a long time to work and blood chokes that cut off the blood supply to the brain and work within seconds if they are applied correctly. A choke hold is an efficient way to subdue a violent opponent and can almost always be applied without permanent injury or death. Police cannot use chokes now because political pressures required that they be prohibited. Once in a great while, a choke hold can result in serious injury or death. Police generally have the advantage of greater training and non-lethal weapons, such as tasers or batons, to subdue suspects. It was absolutely an accident. Contrary to the movies, the military spends very little time on hand-to-hand combat. Penny was not Jason Bourne. Neely was seriously mentally ill, in ill physical health and had a smorgasbord of drugs in his system.

[@anonymous666951]

@@user-fb5oz9fh1b If I armbar someone, does that mean I automatically break their arm? No. Similarly, a chokehold only cuts off oxygen if it's cinched. I suspect if Penny intended to choke out Neeley, rather than just subdue him, the latter would have been limp before the phones came out. The implication that Neeley was choked to death simply because he was placed in a chokehold is bunk from people who have never rolled (i.e., have little understanding of grappling).

[@user-fb5oz9fh1b]

Thank you for the context.

[@flutebasket4294]

The only person people should feel sorry for is Penny

[@hunterseufert8066]

Judging by the comments and my reaction, it appears Glenn did not really do his homework on the Penny case. The jury found that as Penny intended, Penny did not indeed kill Neely.

[@Mateo-et3wl]

It's nice to hear john expressing sane ideas again. Try to keep him off trump if you can

[@briannerk3373]

I think Glenn and Mcwhorter are missing a lot of the point about the healthcare story in that, "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable" When you make change through peaceful means impossible (since both political parties refuse to make systemic changes to healthcare) that is when violence emerges; The system has to change and the hyper rich and powerful who benefit from an sociopathic healthcare system, need to change it or otherwise we can expect more Lugi's in the future... which is not a good thing for society IMO. It was just revealed that United healthcare had Denial Quotas in place! The CEO that was assasinated also was being investigated for insider trading and he also was the CEOwho oversaw the implementation of AI to automatically deny healthcare claims under United Health. He may have been nice to his neighbor, but so was Adolf Eichman.

[@stevenbratz7333]

John acknowledges racism against white people with his assessment of the Penny case, mirroring the casual way our society thinks of it, because it’s so common.

[@tagon70]

Please.. if penny was black he would be in jail.. he damn sure wouldn’t be invited to hang out with the president..

[@billwilkie6211]

Tragic Choices, by Guido Calabresi, is interesting on the topic on rationing societal goods.

[@richardtardo5170]

It amazes me how National Healthcare advocates ignore Great Britain and Canada healthcare have 6 month waits for some basic tests and both minor and major surgery. That would not be acceptable to the majority of.

[@ark-L]

I live in Canada. The reason wait times, etc. are getting worse is due to the consistent "starve the beast" strategies employed under neoliberalism. Ontario has a Conservative premier now whose whole schtick is trying to degrade the public system so he can break off pieces of the pie to the private sector (with which he curiously just happens to have deep ties...)

[@Aquos2000]

I would rather that than having to mortgage out or loose my house and all my savings, or watch that money for private go to executives and shareholders.

[@ret1con]

You’re wrong on this Glenn. The USA is the ONLY country where cancer patients for example suffer health effects of financial toxicity due to the “rationing” of healthcare. If the resources are as limited as you say, why are the insurance companies allowed to charge as much as they do on the front end? The premium is essentially prepayment for services you expect to receive when you need them and your premium is set according to your risk of needing them and the cost to provide them should you need them, right?

[@moloney55]

Premium is not set based on risk of needing services. That is done in other areas of insurance, car, house, life, etc.... Generally premiums are negotiated by your work and the more people in the company equals a better group discount. But no, a healthy 20 year old and a 60 year old who is obese and has multiple chronic conditions pay the same premium if they are in the same plan. Usually there are a couple of plans to choose from with higher premiums for lower fees down the road and in that different groups may select different plans. Guessing you don't live in the US

[@lukespencer1151]

i think you guys gotta double check your facts of the Penny case

[@robertkier9343]

The problem with the healthcare "system" is the cost. The insurance companies are caught in the middle. The US system is very complex. A lot of the problems are caused by the regulatory differences between the 50 states.

[@pavo1394]

Glenn: "Neely needed care." Votes for party that guts funding for mental health.

[@kino_punkt44]

I was looking forward to Glenn’s measured take on the CEO shooting but his spontaneous thoughts felt ignorant. Ozempic costs $93 in the UK compared to ~$1000 in the US. So something beyond mere “rationing” is going on.

[@billduffe4472]

Americans have to accept a lot less healthcare goods and services than people in other rich countries because we only spend twice as much but the prices average a lot more than twice as much Americans complain a lot but they don't actually vote to do anything about it For reasons like not paying much attention and focusing on bad priorities Americans vote for kleptocracy

[@BrandonHeat243]

Ultimately the level of a persons corruption doesn't matter when it comes to a situation like this(and by all accounts the victim seemed VERY corrupt). If our society has reached a point where we're ok with shooting people in the back by surprise in the street over a grudge then we are lost as a people. Literally gangster thinking and behavior.

[@moloney55]

We need to figure out why we think we need Ozempic vs cost

[@Phosphoreus]

Today’s was one of their worst shows…

[@Kodiie]

I like how we are just accepting rushed barely studied pharmaceuticals like Ozempic as ‘healthcare’ lol

[@krinniv7898]

It goes a little beyond people being merely "disappointed" by health insurance decisions, and I think people realized that more when they saw the graph showing the denial rates of various health insurers, with United being the worst.

[@ark-L]

42:40 uncharacteristically poor reasoning from Glenn here. The point isn't that rationing healthcare wouldn't happen under a universal healthcare system. It's that it would be rationed according to NEED rather than capacity to PAY. AND there wouldn't be any middlemen insurance companies sucking money out of the system that could otherwise actually be put towards helping people. As someone who lives in a country with universal healthcare, it's clear that Glenn can't really wrap his mind around how it fundamentally changes how healthcare works. There's no bureaucrat saying you aren't covered for w/e treatment you need to receive--it's the actual healthcare professionals who decide that. Sure, they may say you have to wait if it's not expressly urgent. But at least in those cases your health is the determinant. Not profit.

[@nestorbrown4718]

@@ark-L yes, this was the point of the “Lifeboat” game that leftist teachers introduced into public school classrooms in the 80’s. The need invariably has other factors calculated into determining the prioritization. What’s your profession? What’s your social credit score? Did you cause a performative activist somewhere “to have anxiety” because you posted a picture of the flag of the country you live in or mentioned a public crime stat in a social media post? Tsk tsk. Your social credit score is down. You’re going to have to wait for that procedure to remove the gauze that was left inside you by your last surgeon because of the talent drain in your socialist utopia.

[@anguscattle580]

I'm not sure many potential 'good samaritans' want to go through the hell of being charged, prosecuted, and spending their life savings defending OTHERS!

[@terrencemcbride7062]

Neally was offered help he walked away from those opportunities more than once. He previously attacked two elderly women before this incident

[@phillarragoite4524]

Come on Glen you spelled villains wrong in the thumbnail

[@phillarragoite4524]

John would have spelled it right

[@milestackettmusic]

Blue “no matter who” sky

[@Jean_Michel108]

NYC needs more mental hospitals

[@posmoo9790]

Penny is a hero, someone who put their life in danger to save others when under no moral or legal compunction existed requiring him to do so. He's not a Vigilante which is someone who seeks to mete out justice outside the formal justice system, which is what Mangione told use what he was doing, although many people will not even accept that definition because of course it is self-servingto claim justice had anything to do with it. Two smart and well read men shouldn't be confused by this regardless of the terrible newspapers yall read.

[@peachmelba-b5n]

The persistent focus on criticizing DEI programs overlooks the broader reality that unqualified people are often elevated to positions of power without accountability, perpetuating a system that is neither meritocratic nor inclusive. The Trump administration’s recent Cabinet picks demonstrate that unqualified individuals are frequently appointed to powerful positions without much scrutiny, not because of diversity goals, but due to individuals ascending to positions of power through connections, ideology, or loyalty rather than objective qualifications. This phenomenon is rarely criticized because it doesn’t carry a formal label like “DEI,” making it less visible in public discourse. The result is an erroneous conclusion that meritocracy is inherently at odds with diversity, when in fact diversity challenges homogeneity-not merit. A truly meritocratic system should evaluate individuals based on qualifications while fostering diversity to ensure representation and innovation.

[@shokuchideirdrecarrigan7402]

This commenter assumes that all people of a particular identity have the same views, limitations, strengths and weaknesses. Just not so. DEI does not promote anything but identity bias.

[@peachmelba-b5n]

without DEI, there’s no mechanism to examine whether opportunities are truly accessible to everyone. It’s easy to assume that the lack of representation means all the best-qualified people are already included, but this ignores the possibility that capable individuals were overlooked or excluded for reasons unrelated to their ability. Eliminating DEI doesn’t prevent unqualified people from getting jobs.

[@randomusername3873]

Dei is based on the notion that diversity and meritocracy are at odds Remove dei and diversity and meritocracy can be together

[@peachmelba-b5n]

DEI has been shown to significantly enhance business profitability. Companies with diverse executive teams are more likely to outperform their peers financially. For instance, a 2020 McKinsey study found that businesses in the top quartile for ethnic and cultural diversity were 36% more likely to achieve above-average profitability. Similarly, a 2018 Boston Consulting Group report revealed that diverse management teams generated innovation revenue 19 percentage points higher than their less diverse counterparts. DEI also boosts employee productivity and engagement by fostering creativity and innovation. According to Deloitte, inclusive organizations are eight times more likely to achieve better business outcomes and twice as likely to exceed financial targets. Furthermore, diverse teams make better decisions, with a Cloverpop study showing that inclusive teams made superior decisions 87% of the time, resulting in 60% better outcomes. In addition to internal benefits, DEI helps businesses expand their market reach. A Harvard Business Review study found that companies with higher diversity levels were 45% more likely to capture new markets. Diverse teams better understand customer needs across various demographics, driving market expansion and increasing revenues. Moreover, organizations that prioritize DEI attract and retain top talent, especially among younger workers, with Glassdoor reporting that 76% of job seekers value diversity in their workplace.

[@peachmelba-b5n]

DEI has been shown to significantly enhance business profitability. Companies with diverse executive teams are more likely to outperform their peers financially. For instance, a 2020 McKinsey study found that businesses in the top quartile for ethnic and cultural diversity were 36% more likely to achieve above-average profitability. Similarly, a 2018 Boston Consulting Group report revealed that diverse management teams generated innovation revenue 19 percentage points higher than their less diverse counterparts. DEI also boosts employee productivity and engagement by fostering creativity and innovation. According to Deloitte, inclusive organizations are eight times more likely to achieve better business outcomes and twice as likely to exceed financial targets. Furthermore, diverse teams make better decisions, with a Cloverpop study showing that inclusive teams made superior decisions 87% of the time, resulting in 60% better outcomes. In addition to internal benefits, DEI helps businesses expand their market reach. A Harvard Business Review study found that companies with higher diversity levels were 45% more likely to capture new markets. Diverse teams better understand customer needs across various demographics, driving market expansion and increasing revenues. Moreover, organizations that prioritize DEI attract and retain top talent, especially among younger workers, with Glassdoor reporting that 76% of job seeker value diversity in their workplace.

[@twntwrs]

Perfect tone-deafness of our moneyed ivy league professors to whom the notion of death or destitution by a healthcare calamity is inconceivable.

[@deathbysloth]

To John's point about demonization, empathy is not a free action; it requires energy consumption that many people don't want to spend. Some don't have much excess energy to spare. For some, it takes a much higher quantity of energy to engage in it. For some, they're simply convinced it's not worth spending the energy. And some are all of these. It is a huge problem in this time, and we need to find a solution for it, but I don't have one yet.

[@aaronc1999]

Can you expand on that a bit? I think of empathy as an emotion, something that occurs, that doesn't require energy. Do you mean that actually helping others requires energy? Thanks!

[@deathbysloth]

@aaronc1999 Hmm, well, I guess I would amend my statement to say that, for some people, empathy *does* come quite easily, in the same way that math or shooting hoops comes naturally to some. That said, math and shooting hoops also involve energy expenditures to perform and further energy to train consistently. And think about how draining high emotions can be. I imagine there's been days when you've been exhausted and then encountered some situation and thought to yourself "I'm too tired to care." Every action, every thought, every emotion requires some amount of energy expenditure, even if its tiny. Even blinking, even breathing, even reflexes. And as far as I understand the science (which is admittedly limited), every living thing, by default, attempts to conserve energy whenever possible. So, for some people, empathy is one of those areas in which they conserve their energy, whether consciously or unconsciously. I hope that makes sense, I've just been playing around with this idea lately and John's comment struck me as in the same realm.

[@gagamba9198]

Having been burned several times by deceitful people, I limit empathy to those I know _and_ trust. That's a small group of people. For everyone else, they get no more than my sympathy. I encourage people to read Prof Paul Bloom's book _Against Empathy_ . There are several videos featuring him on this platform if you want to get a taste before a purchase.

[@BeanMacdui]

I think that having empathy for people who we don’t relate to, or generally agree with etc., can take a lot of effort.

[@briane173]

43:00 This is central to the argument of whether health care should be considered a _right._ For health care to be declared as a "right" means that the _government_ must spare no expense in protecting that "right" for anybody and everybody who wants to exercise it for whatever reason -- whether it be transgender surgeries, plastic surgeries, liposuction, Depo-Provera, contraception, wart removal, you name it -- and government (and by extension, the taxpayer) would be forced to bankroll it, because it's our "right." It wouldn't be long before a limited resource would be depleted in such short order that eventually _no one_ would have a "right" to even exercise where it comes to health care. Heath care is not a "right," folks -- it's a *_commodity_* -- with limited resources -- and must be allocated (rationed) in order to provide the most access to the most people, working with finite resources from which to provide it. And as a _commodity,_ the _consumer_ has a responsibility to make decisions about not only the efficacy but the necessity of certain treatments. A macro-economic FACT that we need to acknowledge before we're going to even attempt to find a solution to it.

[@Google_Censored_Commenter]

I don't think this follows. Everything is limited in resources. Every single right you have, has to be defended by limited police resources, limited amount of judges, limited amount of lawyers. It's life, not a utopian fiction we live in. Making utopian assumptions about what rights are, only so you can shoot them down and neglect assuming that responsibility is.. well, irresponsible. All you need do is incapsulate rights into some practical framework we call the law. And you can write that law with as many deadline restraints and exceptions as you'd like. So if you have a problem with cosmetic surgeries being considered part of the healthcare "right"? Simply write it into the law that the right only pertains to medically necessary treatments, simple. You don't have to overcomplicate the issue. What matters here, (and has always been what mattered) is the spirit of the law, the intention behind it. Do we agree, or disagree with the intent? The solutions will radically differ depending on the answer to that question.

[@polopolomay1]

And when the event occurred, and you felt "your team, your people, your side" had been attacked, what did you do? Other than sharing opinions, furrowing your brows, and leaving dinner parties when offended by those whose feet are just as comfortably nestled in the continental United States as yours, what action did you take? Would you be equally offended by those young people who took up arms in foreign lands, if they shared the opinion of Ta-nehisi Coates? One might argue that your implied moral high ground regarding patriotism is incongruent with your actions-or inactions-of the day.

[@benmartin4540]

‘Laughing behind the hand’: Duper’s delight… Bad faith.

[@nestorbrown4718]

John, you can write your “thank you” letter to President Trump for MAGA taking on DEI and ensuring you don’t have to be confronted with signing an oath. Because, it didn’t just fade away on its own. Everyone you vote for has been an activist for the application of critical race theory and neo Marxism and identity politics.

[@emergencyCALL911]

Woke has been in decline since Trump _left_ office. It was on the rise during his entire first term.

[@ricardocima]

Yes, but John, like any reasonable person, can measure different things and come to the conclusion that there are bad and worse things. To trumpies, it seems that NOTHING is worse than wokeism. They would pick Stalin instead of Kamala if he was anti-woke.

[@Broker1010]

Biden is trying to put thru 1200 govt employers for DEI currently ..

[@shokuchideirdrecarrigan7402]

Though not Stalin, Kamala was a horrible candidate for President. Totally unqualified except for those who prize gender and skin color above all.

[@nestorbrown4718]

@@ricardocima that’s the most ridiculous hypothetical to say they would pick (insert Communist Dictator) if he was anti-communist.

[@milestackettmusic]

The CEO is responsible very directly for the policies of that company. He runs unlike your average white dude for whatever random racism, a black or brown person experiences occasionally. Very different things and arguably the private health insurance companies, denial of coverage of medical care to paying customers is much more detrimental than some real or perceived racist act . It’s also way more common. No he should not have killed the ceo but what you are witnessing is the opportunity arising for many people across political tribes To express how disgusted and angry they are at the private health insurance industry

[@sherrykeers3649]

Neeley had already been given help after the first assaults. Neeley left the place on his own after some days l want to say 10 days. His mental condition prevented him from getting the help he needed. This was the result of that.

[@vwiccy]

That was kind of a slick trick… equating the ceo to firefighters of 911 - mmmm? Just a cog, am I right - just following orders

[@shawnbrown5174]

If only my insurance covered me as well as a Biden pardon...

[@hunterseufert8066]

Does he need to be restrained in a way the he can't move or breathe? No, but hog-tying is acceptable. Shame the commuters weren't equipped to do so.

[@Roger-r7s]

I would hope that the failure of the identity and cultural focused "left" could be the best thing that could have happened to reconstruct, reinvigorate reconnect the "left" to the mainstream of the Americal public, which it has treated with an astounding sense of self righteous moral certitude and superiority snide condescension and contempt.

[@Zzyzzyx]

*Penny is not a vigilante*

[@ghrohrs2025]

4:56 great observations. Affirmative action = DEI = (what's the next nefarious ideology relabeling?).

[@ericwilliams1023]

You got into Berkley because you were sooo special as a black kid 😂 Ninja please

[@brotherbeat6541]

Well heeled black ppl would rather talk abt racism than class for the sake reason the dems do. It benefits them either as protection from introspection, social cache, or to dismiss arguments you can't address honestly.

[@Moar_Entropy]

"hoping he moves on to the next person" that's the real problem, this shouldn't need to be anyone's thought metrics on public transit.

[@euphegenia]

Penny wasn’t a vigilante.

[@efflux89]

John spends time speaking at Martha’s Vineyard events. That explains A LOT.

[@hex5106]

He is a professor at Columbia, what did you expect? Can't say I'd turn down a cushy speaking gig either.

[@gagamba9198]

Yellow tail wine is rubbish. Should have walked right out of the party the moment you saw it.

[@BeanMacdui]

lol 😂

[@billnorris8457]

4m Elder Glenn ate his broccoli. ;)

[@lcraver4797]

I just finished John's book where he also discusses Ta-Nehisi Coates's response to 9-11 - and if Coates' reaction was truly what John portrays him as then Coates' career SHOULD have been immediately over - 9/11 was a seminal moment in American history (and everybody who saw the video that morning knew that!) and never mind the "gibberish" (as Glenn says) then Coates SHOULD have been soiled forever. As Glenn says, when Americans are "subject to mass murder" contempt for "American empire" should have put him outside the pale. Thank you for reminded me while I loathe him so much.

[@gitchermotrrunnin]

I lived in NYC for almost 30 yrs, worked for the NYC Subway system for 25. For a period of my employment I would use the train and bus to get to my work location in Brooklyn instead of driving. Unfortunately my return trip coincided with school students going home. What can I say, being in the car with high school age students running rampant and occasionally harassing passengers, I stopped riding the train and returned to driving. Do I have to say what color the students were? I tried catching an earlier train but it was useless. As far as troublesome passengers go, early in my career I worked midnights, and once my co-workers and I were returning form our job. The train made a stop at a station and we noticed a transit worker being held by a person a few cars down. We ran down and I gave the guy a shot and he let the transit worker go. I am not a tough guy by any means. The worker was black and the troublemaker was white. I could have gotten fired for that, but he was drunk and would not let go. I rode the trains and buses for more two decades and have a perspective similar to John.

[@imnotanalien7839]

Glenn and John, Thank you for all the interesting conversations this year, our nation has made it thru in one piece, 🇺🇸, our big mystery was the election, as of today it is now the drones! Have a wonderful peaceful Christmas! 🎄🎄🎄 (I am sure it is not aliens👽, 🌎 why would they pick New Jersey? If I was an alien I would have picked UCBERKELY, or Harvard)

[@cyborgjorge]

Glenn's take on the popular sentiment about healthcare in America was disappointing. “Everybody’s not going to get every treatment that they want all the time because resources are limited, period.” It's such a strawman argument. Most people aren't arguing that - they're simply asking for some semblance of BASIC healthcare that the average person can afford.

[@rckaye6281]

Didn't Jordan get off the train and die later at the hospital?

[@atorockcliffe53]

My dear brother Prof McWhorter, the position the brother/person had back then is the same position you have about anyone that disagrees with your take on Israel. He was wrong to have that posture.

[@tkoch7503]

John sort of scoffs at the idea of "demons among us." But there are clearly some in the world who are "demon like". They just are not as numerous as some people think they are. There is, however, also a much larger group of "ordinary grifters". Maybe not the worst people in the world, not necessarily trying to do evil, but trying to fill their pockets regardless of morality, law or decency. Still, putting that kind of label on somebody is irrelevant to an argument. "You're a grifter." is not a rebuttal to "X is true."

[@polopolomay1]

So, does one's fear or lack of preparedness in a given situation justify actions that result in the loss of life? Because you, John, are a "snotty-nosed brother," you idealize someone who takes another person's life into their own hands. Surprisingly, neither of you resorted to your usual "pull oneself up by their own bootstraps" rhetoric to encourage citizens to be better prepared for the realities of the world. Instead, you advocate for projecting potentially irrational fears onto others, leading to actions like "detaining" a fellow human to death. We can learn much about a person from those they choose to empathize with. You invoke his being a Marine as a sympathetic appeal to authority-after all, aren’t Marines our heroes? Yet the lessons of Spider-Man seem lost here. "With great power comes great responsibility" is replaced by a tragic twist: our heroes have become murderers. Glenn, you say, "I can imagine myself sitting there, being intimidated and feeling anger from the fear that has been induced in me-not getting up because I'm afraid of the consequences and hoping he moves on to the next person. Oh my God, isn't that a position of weakness? How pathetic, how sad." But would you then have wished him dead? Incapable of confronting him yourself, would you have wanted someone else to rid the world of him? In this imagined scenario, you have assigned him an "almost always" race, Black, and character and then communicated this to a public that outsources their understanding of the world to your perspective? What does this say about the narratives you choose to project and the lives they impact?

[@RichardLinza]

The CEO increased the rejection rate to 2 to 3 times average compared to other insurance companies directly leaving to the deaths of thousands. The CEO killer was just pushing a fat guy in front of a trolley.

[@FactCheckerGuy]

Source? The reason that I ask is that 73% of all statistics are made up to win arguments.

[@billscannell93]

People have such naive faith in the justice system. The whole thing is set up very poorly as a means of getting to truth--two opposing teams, each trying to twist facts to manipulate the views of a panel of random people. (You never know who will be on the jury. You could get a nut, or a stupid person, or anyone.) And then there are other factors, like the political climate. When I hear that someone is innocent or guilty based on a court conviction, I take it with a grain of salt, unfortunately.

[@shokuchideirdrecarrigan7402]

I don’t ride the train. Car or ferry or walk. I live on Coney Island.

[@edmunddengler7687]

It seems that both of these commentators cannot get basic facts right. Neely was alive when the police took control. There is no evidence that Neely was killed by what Penny did. If they cannot get basic facts correct, how can anything they talk about be taken seriously?

[@Phosphoreus]

Disappointing show today. Emotional, weak arguments… I usually enjoy the ideas here, but not today. I felt I was witnessing something sad

[@westdr1dw4]

I have been amicable to the view points of the duo. However, this episode has a lot of false misleading comments. There have been a few politicians to include K. Harris, and AOC who were pushing for defunding the police. Penny took an oath when he entered the military. Do support and defend enemies foreign and domestic. He seen a threat and instead of looking away took action. What is the criminal record of the individual who unfortunately died in the incident. Affirmative Action in 2024 is ok? Why should anyone be elevated based on the color of their skin. Never believed anyone should be evaluated on race, ethnicity, religion, or political believes. Meritocracy based on the individual's accomplishments. An individual can come from adverse living environment and still shine. If you have two individuals who are given the same opportunities in regard to education. Why should one have to work harder to meet the same achievement.

[@onceagain6184]

I'VE BEEN RIDING THE NYC SUBWAY SINCE THE 70'S ! Penny should have been convicted!

[@ricardocima]

Glenn needs to travel abroad more often. Knows nothing about how other health systems work, US is all he knows. Well, he's a trumpie so....makes sense.

[@moloney55]

You're claiming that there is no rationing in places like the UK?...

[@ricardocima]

@@moloney55 I'm claiming it's just different and much better. UK , or Spain, or Sweden. Or if you want a more objetive measurement: people there are pretty much satisfied about it, not in despair like in US. The NHS is treated like a national treasure, always being improved by popular demand. Its a right, not a business. But that's fine, different cultures. Americans seems to like the law of the jungle, where the weak will perish. Like MAGA Glenn saind in a previous video, "if you dont have anything to contribute, you will be cast in the trash bin of history". He seems to be proud about it. Just pathetic.

[@FactCheckerGuy]

My guess is that Glenn has traveled abroad far more often than you or 99% of Americans have and he has plenty of international colleagues. But I'm sure he'd agree with you if he was just as well informed.

[@ricardocima]

@@FactCheckerGuy I doubt it, he seems very insular.

[@onceagain6184]

These 2 are wrong about so many things.

[@ToroBobebe]

John... please consider the discontinuation of your habit of beginning comments or thoughts with "frankly."

[@mofarmer9923]

Canada health care caused an amputation for a knee replacement

[@slickrick8046]

The issue with Jordan Neely is that he was arrested 42 times including being arrested for a few unprovoked assaults. Under any normal circumstances he wouldn’t have been on that train because he would have been locked up in prison or a psychiatric ward. But the people of NYC voted for people like Jordan Neely to be free by electing judges who don’t lock people up. Daniel Penny and the other gentleman who attacked Jordan Neely are not heroes or vigilantes. They actually went against the wishes of the people in NYC because they voted for people like Neely to be free so they could be harassed by him.

[@Broker1010]

I literally stopped my subscription with Glenn and John because of his intolerance and frankly uneducated stance by John… yet the pass he gives himself is astonishing. Let’s go back to what he called MAGA.

[@posmoo9790]

Claudine Gay was only fired because she was not sufficiently defferntial to Israel. That had nothing to do with Woke. That was her forgetting who really was at the top of the totem pole.

[@ericwilliams1023]

Even in the military you dont fire on civilians until you are ordered to,yet he thought ot was okay to attsck this man for beong loud in public?

[@jayreal2417]

This old dude talks about we have to ration medicine. If the US didn’t give money to Israel and Ukraine and other country’s and put that into universal healthcare it would but be able to help people …