My Reflections (and apologies) on Mouth Taping

[@Abdul12_34]

Hi Dr Veer, might be worth adding a link to this video on your original mouth taping video as a pinned comment so people can view the context? Thanks as always

[@VikVeerENTSurgeon]

good idea ! kzbin.info/www/bejne/nWG1lpt7ablgipo

[@nonyabusiness31]

@@VikVeerENTSurgeon I haven't tried mouth taping but I'm hearing so many warnings about the potential dangers of it.....but I'm still unable to find any articles or reports anywhere on the internet of any mouth taping related deaths, not even one. As so many people are doing it these days, surely 1 person somewhere has been found dead in their bed with tape over their mouth and they were able to determine it was the cause of death.... the internet would be flooded with warnings referencing the case.... what's going on here?

[@RyanWilliams222]

This is one of my favorite videos you’ve ever made. You admitted your mistake and corrected it, and painted a clearer picture of sleep apnea in the process! Thank you!!

[@VikVeerENTSurgeon]

That is extraordinarily generous of you, thank you so much.

[@julianblake8385]

Oh, Doc, you definitely do not need to apologize. You already do so much for us by sharing your knowledge so clearly and kindly. But the fact that you did it anyway speaks so highly of you (even more).

[@VikVeerENTSurgeon]

Thank you - most appreciated.

[@emmareynolds7904]

Tremendous respect for your nuanced perspective, and willingness to listen to people and to apologise for previously giving a ‘one size fits all’ point of view. You are a great example to us all in how to listen to and learn from others! PS I didn’t comment on the last video but I am someone (with mild issues) who has found lightly (!) taping my mouth down the centre with a piece of micropore tape really beneficial, along with working on breathing through my nose when awake (something I had to teach myself to do, and that I have gone back to repeatedly).

[@VikVeerENTSurgeon]

glad that you've found something that works for you - and thanks for the comment.

[@mrichards913]

Vik A very good morning Your advice is common sense. Your professional approach with all your presentations are always “Exceptionally user friendly and logical” Always very interested to listen to your broadcasts, thank you. Best regards

[@nicoful86]

1 second after seeing that Mortal Kombat pin all was forgiven.

[@VikVeerENTSurgeon]

🤣🤣🤣

[@BridgetmarieSouthin]

@VikVeerENTSurgeon thank you for everything your doing, bless you.

[@LaughinLoneStar]

Why I have OSA (AHI 22): 1. Small jaw 2. Deviated septum 3. Severe nasal allergies 4. Enlarged turbinates 5. 40 pounds overweight (fatty tongue, soft palette, and pharyngeal wall). So far I have fixed 2,4. Taking allergy shots now and losing weight. Feels weird to breathe through my nose the way I do now. I would have had double jaw surgery already, but it would cost me 55k right now. Since no jaw surgeons take my insurance. In 2025 I plan to get an MMA and genioplasty. I can't keep ANY mask on my face longer than 90 minutes per night.

[@MickSmith-gn6ve]

I have used a full face mask for 6 years and it’s been a horrid experience. Lately after seeing uncle Aussie Nick video, suggest nasal pillow and mouth taping. I have zero leaks now and feel better than I used to. Also the thought of not having to put on a full face mask again , is liberating. It works for me but I take your point regarding a power cut but have a light sleeping wife. Thanks for all your videos

[@silverfields22]

I'm glad you make a distinction. I understand that it's difficult to recommend mouth taping to a patient (who constantly opens their mouth during sleep & CPAP therapy) and that there are risks associated with taping your mouth, risks that you as a doctor probably don't want to take. Using CPAP with mouth taping might be too much of a burden for many people to start with. But in my specific case, it's simple: no mouth taping, no CPAP, and mouth taping over waking up with dry mouth, bad breath, and teeth issues, constantly getting up for water, and ultimately no sleep.Thank you very much Dr. Veer for your commitment and informative videos!

[@jonathanfriedlander8563]

Full admiration ! And respect to a professional who apologizes publicly. After reading a book called "BREATH" i taped after some struggle it worked . But i still dont sleep .

[@VikVeerENTSurgeon]

Breathe is a really interesting book. I hope you manage to sort out the issues you are getting.

[@jimt7851]

Mouth taping absolutely changed my life. I was snoring for at least 12 years, didn't think for one moment it could be stopped. I had very high blood pressure and everything associated with that. My BP now is around 107 over 74. The best sleep you could ever have and when I wake up it's in a totally undisturbed bed with a third leg. E.D. what's that? It's gone. Plumbers can't give medical advice so take no notice of me. Ps you have to use the correct tape as the majority I tried didn't work properly. Anyone interested I'll get the brand name for you.

[@KSNDXFW534D3FW3]

I'm interested in the brand

[@iseeyou1312]

Mouth taping on CPAP? Mouth taping without CPAP isn't preventing snoring or apnoeas, just muffling them. Retention tape like hypafix worked for me, although I think I used a generic one.

[@aalliaandreadis5109]

So am I 🤔 ​@@KSNDXFW534D3FW3

[@aalliaandreadis5109]

Plumbers have done more for infectious disease than all vaccines and doctors put together. The reason we were saved from such beauties as yersinia pestis etc is modern plumbing systems. Fact.

[@francoistourigny3006]

I’m interested to know the name of your mouth tape! I’m searching for fews years the one that will be adapted to my needs , with beard! And still well fix , and comfortable, I could breathe just by noses no problem! thank you Verry much.

[@janeyates3575]

This video cleared so much up for me! I completely understand now how your communications with a very specific patient population in your office did not immediately translate to this much wider audience on KZbin. We’re a heterogeneous lot for sure.

[@VikVeerENTSurgeon]

I apologise again - thank for you for understanding.

[@gethinjones799]

Thanks for this. I'm one of the people that was left confused and worried at how using CPAP and tape was a problem. So thanks for clearing it up, others wouldn't. Very appreciated, you're a good guy.

[@MagdaSaeed-f2p]

You’re amazing and a true blessing! Thank you for generously sharing your knowledge and wisdom! Wouldn’t it be wonderful if you came to Australia and met up with Nick? ☺️

[@Kimmer]

Mouth tape has certainly helped me by simply forcing me to breathe thru my nose which has been shown to be critical. After doing this for over a year now, my ability to breathe better thru my nose with less stuffiness has greatly improved. By sleeping on my side and stomach, I have eliminated episodes of gasping that I used to have regularly.

[@VikVeerENTSurgeon]

that is great to hear. I would recheck your sleep study to be sure (if possible)

[@Kimmer]

@@VikVeerENTSurgeon Thanks Vik for your always wonderful advice! By the way, my wife and I will be in London the third week of July and can't wait to see this wonderful city!

[@mscatnipper2359]

I am so amazed that I am in California, getting sleep apnea education from a surgeon in London and a respiratory therapist in Australia, and now discover that they are connected. Nicko has a wicked Aussie sense of humor!

[@catallergiccat]

Thank you Dr. Veer! While nasal mask with mouth taping can effectively combat mouth leaks which compromise the therapy, many people may develop aerophagia or CPAP-gas, as the pressurized air is forced into esophagus. I agree with you that sleep related breathing disorders are very complicated, treatment has to be personalized.

[@Abdul12_34]

Hi Dr Veer, Great video as always. Sensible idea to really clearly caveat your opinion on mouth taping to focus on the specific subset of patient population that you treat specifically. Context is super important! For someone who has no nasal obstructions and is using CPAP via nasal pillows, mouth tape makes sense for “optimisation/refining” For someone with untreated sleep apnea who has a severely deviated septum and nasal blockages and possibly some other apneas perhaps in the tongue base or palate areas, regular mouth tape is probs not the optimal solution! Also mouth tape should not be like gaffer tape!!! You don’t want to look like a mummy! Thanks Dr Veer, both for the videos and for treating me💪

[@julianblake8385]

Dear doc Vik. I actually want to thank you for having done the video about the dangers of mouth taping. I probably am one of those people for whom this is a bad strategy, and I use a nasal mask CPAP. I tried this for a couple of weeks while wearing a chin strap because I tend to open my mouth a lot while sleeping or relaxing, and I usually have a lot of leaks. And even though mouth taping helped me some days with my dry mouth, I had many episodes in which I totally stopped breathing, I couldn't open my mouth, and I just wasn't able to wake up (I really struggle with this sleep paralysis thing). I almost drawn and I woke in total panic, without enough oxygen, and having a hard time sticking the tape off my face and taking the mask off. These were some absolutely horrible experiences and a couple of times I actually thought I was gonna die. I immediately remembered your video about why mouth taping may be (and indeed is) a bad strategy, or at least a dangerous one, for many people. So, thank you so much for sharing your information.

[@feled01]

I use full face cpap mask and found mouth taping, allowing mouth to open by ~20% seems a good compromise. Mostly eliminates mouth breathing, snoring and mask leaks, whilst allowing some wiggle room for mouth breathing.

[@screamtoasigh9984]

Please do a video about Central Apneas and Bruxism. I have all mixed and central apnea and Cpap has fixed my spo2 levels but I still wake up with headaches and my lunar data shows I'm still getting a lot of central apneas. Score in lab was 6 with MAD dental appliance, score w/cpap 3 (2 is centrals). It might not seem like a lot but it's showing up as migraines on brain scan.

[@VikVeerENTSurgeon]

I think you need that checked - what did lankylefty have to say about it? i'm not sure it can all be explained with the central apnoeas.

[@stargazer1359]

@@screamtoasigh9984 I also have severe Central Apnea, or mixed apnea. Unable to use ASV, now using supplemental oxygen at night. Headaches improved, were unbearable. Still have periods of not breathing, mouth open breathing...but generally feel slightly better.

[@hatfieldmain]

I live in the UK I have used a CPAP Machine for over 20 Years. I have tried every variation of Mask and I can only tolerate the Nasal Mask which I wear every night BUT I found that I was waking up throughout the Night with an extremely dry mouth. I concluded the air was short circuiting so I started with taping the Mouth which improved things. Then I noticed my Cheeks were expanding similar to a Hamster which led me to rolling up Hankies with Cotton Wool stabilised with an elastic strap around my Head, which makes me look totally weird but works. I hate having to use the CPAP Machine and would dearly love to get rid of it.

[@Beyond-Creation]

Kudos for addressing, I feel stuck in this position, cannot use a mask at all so I use nasal pillows but find it impossible without mouth taping as I instantly have an open mouth when I fall asleep.

[@VikVeerENTSurgeon]

really glad it is working for you. take care

[@Beyond-Creation]

@@VikVeerENTSurgeon thanks although your same concerns and my paranoia for example a power cut do definitely play on my mind!

[@georgecarousos6735]

I've been mouth taping for over two years but I cut 8-10 small vertical slits (about 1/4" long) in the tape right where my lips would go together. This allows me to breath in and out of my mouth should I need to or have to cough. I can even drink water through a narrow straw if necessary. The key with mouth taping is not to stick your lips together with force but to keep you mouth and jaw from gapping open as you relax and fall asleep. The part of mouth taping I don't understand is as soon as I tape my mouth for the night, my nasal passages totally open up and I can breath through my nose perfectly. But if I don't tape my mouth, my nose always feels stuffy and hard to breath through. Could it be the higher humidity caused by the mouth taping that allows better breathing through the nose?

[@abudhabi9850]

Could you make a video about double jaw surgery for sleep apnea when tongue falls into throat?

[@screamtoasigh9984]

I mouth tape with a full mask because I have Bruxism and the dental device causes my mouth to open slightly leading to dry mouth and air blowing inside my mouth causing chipmunk cheeks. I wore pillows before and taped but I move so much I had leaks so lanky lefty (of the same named channel) said to switch to full face and my leaks disappeared.

[@VikVeerENTSurgeon]

a few of my patients have seen Jason - he is very good.

[@SophieK-dv7tr]

@@VikVeerENTSurgeon Who is Jason? I would be interested to find out, because at this point I feel slightly desperate.

[@tommangan7]

As someone that now falls into your patient group (tried cpap and MAD for years with no ability to tolerate) i totally got what your aim was in the previous video but can see the benefit in clarifying here for a public audience. I went under ENT for TORSBOT recently but surgery was aborted while under anaesthetic on the table as they decided the upper tongue was the problem stopping my breathing, possibly related to my jaw. Ive been referred to a max fax for jaw investigation (LGI). I appreciate that surgery probably falls out of your remit so might not want to comment on it but was wondering if youd done or were planning any videos related to MMA etc? Its so hard to work out what the right option for me is.

[@screamtoasigh9984]

What is mma and torsbot? What type of doctor did you see?

[@scowell]

In USA the 'good old days' were when you did go into a lab... you were diagnosed and titrated in one evening... then given a prescription pressure and soon thereafter a machine. These days insurance companies are pushing to reduce costs... the advent of automatic algorithms means that a home sleep study is done, OSA is diagnosed, then an automatic machine is provided with no further guidance... the settings often not changed from wide-open factory 4-20cm pressures. This is the thing that blows people away... they put the mask on, go to sleep (if they can, 4cm is barely enough to support life), then when the machine takes them on a pressure ride they wake up. Automatic machines make mistakes all the time... really, they're only good for finding your static pressure... then you change mode from APAP to CPAP and set that pressure and be done with it. AFA mouth taping, don't do it if you're infirm or feeble... I tape my mouth *and* use full-face mask, I'm at very high pressures so nasal masks are out of the question... doctors shy away from recommending mouth-taping because they have to, the liability is just too much... but sleep techs do recommend it, they're the ones seeing the results in the lab... I've converted one to a believer. Vic, you might try CPAP sometime just to get a feel for what's going on with it.

[@123chintz]

what are your thoughts on Safety and efficacy of sulthiame please?

[@courtneyfrantz9240]

Hi Dr. Veer, How helpful to think of sleep apnea as multiple conditions! Thank you. I'm still slightly confused though. I'm thinking about folks who may be on the dge between the two populations you mentioned - those with severe OSA who are still trying to make nasal pillows CPAP work, but starting to run out of options--e.g. can't use chin straps, full face masks, neti pots, nasal sprays, or surgery. They may have some relatively minor nasal issues, seasonal allergies, and comorbidities in other systems of the body, and maybe, e.g., a relatively mild deviated septum, BUT can breathe well through their nose while awake, and have otherwise healthy cardiovascular and respiratory systems. Are there situatoins when mouth taping to improve nasal pillows CPAP (all the way across or a small strip of tape) would be dangerous for these folks, assuming they're not badly congested?

[@s.f.2426]

Hi, Dr. Veer. Could you make a video on the different turbinate reduction techniques and say what you think of them? What do you think of submucosal bone resection, for instance? Thank you!

[@candacenagle505]

Thank you. Thank you for all of the information you share. It is so important. I am one of the people who has benefited from mouth tape. I am using nasal mask and mouth tape and my 02 sats remain stable in the high 90's all night. I take that tape away and things falter. With a full face mask I was constantly choking on the air and my mouth was filling like a balloon and it was awful. Also, I had to figure it out all on my own. Here in California, with my current provider, there is very little guidance. They are so overwhelmed with what appears to be an apnea epidemic. With the help of people like you and Nick, I have managed to work it out myself. But not all folks can do that. I am not the usual cpap candidate, small woman, exercised my entire life, healthy diet etc. Why are so many people being diagnosed with sleep apnea??? Is it evolutionary structural changes?

[@Allan-Lauder]

Great video, I am a big fan of Nicko and his channel, started Cpap in May, it’s changed my life, I am one of the lucky ones, I have adapted to it well. (Nicko’s advice video for beginners was invaluable) I was thinking of trying nasal pillows and taping my mouth, but a full face mask for me is doing a good job, I am concerned about taping my mouth as I am a “mouth breather”, would my body wake up if I taped my mouth?, I am not convinced it’s worth the risks.

[@ArtOfHealth]

My wife uses nose cones made of silicone that she puts up her nose before sleep. That does help her breathe in better. She also uses a chin strap. That does stabilize her jaw. She does tape her mouth. But she does pshhh the air sound around the tape. That disturbs me. Her tongue falls down in her throat and she gurgles and makes even more noise. 😢😢I had to buy ear plugs to minimize the noise so I can sleep, which I am not getting. She is thin and very active. Patrick McKeown is the source that got us hooked. You mentioned tongue retainers. I would like to pull her tongue through the lips and binding it with a clothes pin and brace to secure the tongue from falling back down. Cheers

[@omarr7444]

So for me CPAP is probably coming by soon...should I just wait till that starts and then try mouth taping along with that? my AHI was 22 if it helps...should I try to chinstrap before that

[@valdarixson5573]

I’ve been watching you for a year. I have very loud tinnitus and left side ear is plugged I tested positive for pr 3 had treatment but I’ve still lost my hearing in left ear and right do you have a private clinic you make a lot of sense Valda Rixson

[@pauljohnson4559]

Here's a question. 15 weeks ago my Dr diagnosed me with rhinitis which may have been caused by me cutting a lot of stone tiles and getting v dusty? He prescribed antibiotics and a steroid nasal spray. It kinda cleared it up. But since then, I ve become a really bad snorer? I'm a side sleeper and it's obviously driving my partner mad. I've tried one of those mouth things.dudnt really do anything. What's your thoughts? I'm confused. Cheers.

[@jun10rf3]

If your nose is always congested can you use mouth tape?

[@gK-ih2ct]

I love your info doctor!

[@dagreat8089]

Isn’t using nasal pillows with a chin strap the same as using nasal pillows with mouth tape?

[@VikVeerENTSurgeon]

definitely not. i have a video on this.

[@loman0071]

How could I get a sleep study?

[@rouletteonthetrack]

Hey Man I’ve had halitosis for about two years now I don’t know the cause it smells like I’m rotten from the inside I flaws I brush I tongue scrape I use hydrogen peroxide and nothing cures it Can you help me Dr. Veer

[@bhstone1]

Does mouth tape whilst using nasal CPAP cause hypercapnia?

[@silverfields22]

iit's actually very easy, any sleep study should be able to show if someone sleeps with their mouth open or not. If the mouth falls open during sleep, mouth taping, in combination with a chin strap is a solution. More research should be done on mouth dropping and cheek bloating. If you use a cpap with mouth taping its possible that your cheeks will blow like a marmot. In this case a chin strap could ease the cheek bloating. I guess a dental implant (to keep your teeth togheter) in combination with mouth taping (sealing your lips) could work? You must realize that these patients have no control over the position of their jaw during sleep and that CPAP only exacerbates this problem. Is this the reason that so many sleep apnea patients refuse CPAP treatment? This is absolutely worth investigating.

[@iseeyou1312]

6:14 Surely it's far more likely to have a recessed mandible than a tongue that's "too big"?

[@VikVeerENTSurgeon]

much more common to have lingual tonsil making the tongue too big.

[@miniweeddeerz1820]

agreed. a tongue thats too big. really. maybe by modern standards its normal to have a tongue that has not enough room to sit on the upper palate, but thats not how humans are meant to be.

[@AbhiSharma-lg4pb]

I have EMPTY NOSE SYNDROME, I am dying please help me sir 🙏

[@Claire-mv1tf]

It's the only thing that helps my dry mouth.. I put it loosely on my lips.. so if I need too I can still get air.in emergency.

[@jherigleaton9867]

I’d never ever consider mouth taping because I can’t account for my behavior while sleep, particularly when I have to clear my throat or cough up phlegm. I’d be the very person to asphyxiate myself.

[@Thatsmessedupman]

The stats are not true. Far more than 30 percent stop using CPAP . CPAP is a torture device from a1 5 month experience. I was surprised I could tolerate mouth taping. You can also put a little slit between the tape if you're that worried about it. You can also check out a product that's like a dental dam out of thick silicone called Somno seal. You put it in front of your teeth and it feels less like you're a hostage, but there's still at least a week or two of adjustment and there's more drool. I definitely would be interested in your opinion on the safety of the somno seal. Seems like I can just blow it out if it came to that. It seems to stay in my mouth all night and normally I spit out mouth guards. It does work to make a seal even in your mouth parts slightly. And you can still put a small piece of tape on the lips if one is worried about it falling out. I don't know if you would think differently about it compared to taping or if you have the same concerns. I asked my sleep doctor about my O2 levels since in my watch pad at home sleep study, which I took two of in the course of 2 weeks, showed that I had oxygen below 90 for a significant amount of time. Time. Again, he didn't care what my O2 levels are if my ahi was below 5. I had tried a full face mask and find that more suffocating feeling than the nasal plus as my face relaxes the seal would break more than using nasal cushion. I moved to a bleep system but wanted to get to very low to no leaks to know the most accurate number of pressure I should be on. The bleep system has its own drawbacks but I reduced the leaks significantly where the machine is registering it as 0 L But without taping, without a guard sometimes there is spikes. I don't know what you guys are saying half the time. My experience can be totally different than others. For example, if I try to talk with CPAP in my nose, it's nearly impossible. If I open my mouth too far, it's definitely so uncomfortable that the air is just not rushing out of your mouth like your breathing out of your mouth, if you have CPAP on and your mouth opens, it's a choking feeling. It's even hard to cough. You have to practice but here's the problem. The machine is always on recording you. So if you try to practice it's going to record it as part of your session for that day. And it's going to say you're having obstructions and stuff. These machines are a joke. I mean I woke up. My numbers were fairly good but it was early and it seemed that I had somehow took the device off 4 hours in. Since it was still early I wanted to put it back on and only an hour and a half, of which I was hardly asleep. Now my numbers were double on my ahi because it misrecords normal breathing. But now, because I was trying to better myself from feeling tired all day, I'm branded as someone with obstructive apnea.

[@rebekahbrown4052]

What’s the difference between a chin strap and tape? The cpap won’t work without it. Useless. I’m turning mine in. Total crap racket

[@Abdul12_34]

I thought the Avengers was the biggest crossover on the internet… Turns out Vik and Nick crossover is almost as big! Now we need an IRL crossover with nico as well!

[@jeremymarchand46]

I had uppp what should i do i also gad tonsillectomy sublingual tonsils removed and uppp to pull the soft palate forward

[@jeremymarchand46]

Can you make a videodr vik onthe patients that have already had has UPPP because many of us are very scared