HIGH GROUND actually SUCKS and STAR WARS Lied...

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#rapier #sword

[@celtofcanaanesurix2245]

"we're what you might call professionals" *proceeds to start whacking each other with toy lightsabers*

[@grbdevnull5611]

Emphasis on "might"

[@RachDarastric2]

Good point. If they were professionals they would be using REAL lightsabers!

[@cocodojo]

At least they didn't proceed to bust myths with more C4, because Shad wants a bigger boom

[@dogking44]

Profesional toy lightsabers

[@gaberielpendragon]

The only thing that makes someone a professional is they are being paid. That's it. Professional is misunderstood to mean highly skilled.

[@isaacwright407]

But have you considered Kenobi was just baiting Anakin? Kenobi knew Anakin was impulsive and would act on emotion, so he baited him to attack recklessly. When Anakin threw himself at Kenobi he technically had the high ground and was defeated because of it.

[@coldshock5181]

High ground means your actually standing on ground, being mid flip isn't having the high ground

[@czerynon]

I was thinking the same. Kenobi used two phrases: - It's over Anakin (this will trigger the little sh*t). - I have the high ground (so he will want to have it too... like a little sh*t).

[@mr.azizkovich3285]

@@czerynon 🤣

[@dragonhero14]

True. People forget that he knew how Anakin fights and his skill capability at this point. Also Kenobi's greatest proficiency in the Jedi fighting styles is the defensive stance. That coupled with the high groud ensures that he can always parry most of the attacks coming to him. So Anakin would have to overcome that by preforming an extremely risky move. It's one he is confident he can preform given his connection to the force...but that was what Obi Wan was counting on.

[@BahhBahhBrownSheep]

my dog is gay

[@JungleLibrary]

I like the explanation my dad gave me when I was a kid and asked him the same question: he doesn't mean "high ground" in a literal sense, but more figuratively, in that he had an insurmountable advantage that Anakin couldn't overcome - the lava gap, skill, and also maybe height. Whether that was true or not is unclear - but it did goad Anakin into charging into a disadvantageous situation and lose - as he's been known to do (e.g. vs Dooku) and Obi Wan might have been predicting that reaction.

[@Herbert_Eder]

That's my interpretation as well. He tells Anakin that he is the superior fighter, that he "stands above him".

[@zachj61]

Fair enough. Kenobi still had a level head even after fighting for that long, while Skywalker was completely enraged and seemingly tunnel-visioned into that mistake.

[@me67galaxylife]

Well he means that he has the advantage more than he’s in a place with more height, in translated versions he clearly says "i have the upper hand"

[@stupisam1194]

Maybe Obi had the advantage of the high gound, because he could: a) Force-push Anakin in the lava b) Force-pull the lava at Anakin c) chop Anakin up if he tried to jump above Obi ? Or maybe Lucas didnt think that through XD

[@peezieforestem5078]

I think that's exactly it, people forget to account for force and terrain.

[@lolomgwtfbbqqqq]

By this logic anakin could pull Obiwan into lava or push it up at him.

[@Halberds8122]

@@lolomgwtfbbqqqq *Pulls obi-wan into lava *gets sliced by obi-wan

[@rodrigosouza8471]

Anakin could've jumped diagonally off to a side and then be on the same level as Obi...

[@peezieforestem5078]

@@rodrigosouza8471 how does that cancel a force push from Obi-wan?

[@kozlorog]

I can't describe how happy it makes me to see grown men standing on a hill, swinging plastic swords that make sounds, and arguing about a fight scene from a space fantasy movie. Nerd not dead!

[@andrasbiro3007]

Nerds are ruling the world today.

[@tannerman46]

Nerd culture has never been stronger.

[@KopperNeoman]

​​@@tannerman46Nerd culture is under active assault by the very people who shunned it when it was niche. You might be one of them, given your response.

[@mr.azizkovich3285]

According to Nick Gillard there was an alternative fight ending without the high ground. But my guess is that George Lucas wanted the high ground ending because he wanted Anakin to fail due to his arrogance and not due to Obi-Wans skills. It would also be interesting to know wether or not force abilites could turn the tables and give the high ground the advantage

[@yimwee2401]

I imagine getting force pushed down a hill is much worse than getting pushed up one.

[@tinyguy1015]

​@yimwee2401 until you roll back down

[@user-xx6vy9ri8p]

​@@yimwee2401 Especially into lava

[@GothamClive]

Their fighting style isn't a Jedi-style. They do very small efficient moves with the tips of their swords. Jedis swing their weapons in circles that basically create shields andthey are way more dynamic when it comes to changing levels because of force movements like jumps. By swinging their swords the way they do, they basically create shields. Normal humans can't do that because they are not fast and numble enough. They agreed the high ground is an advantage with shields. Jedi use their swords in the same way a shield would work for ordinary humans.

[@groundloss]

@@GothamCliveStabbing dead center at the hand, where the "lightsaber shield" doesnt protect. Come one, Jedis have that kind of precision (I hope at least, otherwise they shouldnt wield the worst weapon available).

[@jasonschicantek]

I support the fan theory that Obi knew that the high ground wasn't an advantage, but he said that to put the idea into Anakin's head and trick him into trying to jump and make himself vulnerable.

[@XiaoFury]

I was just thinking that. lol

[@allopez8563]

And Han shoot first (and only)

[@gaberielpendragon]

High ground is just an idiom for having the advantage.

[@Dramn_]

It's a very sith thing to do, to jump after that in that way

[@EmeraldsFire]

Yeah, he could have. But his entire tone and expression says not. Would have made old Ben seem less likeable afterwards

[@benjamingcombs]

I've seen this point proven before but what no one ever tries is replicating how unstable the low ground between Anakin and Kenobi is. When Anakin slides down, it is loose scree at best and it appears that Kenobi is on the first stable ground.

[@gentronseven]

Yeah, the ground in between Obi Wan and Anakin wasn't passable it was all too hot or lava to stand on, Anakin lights on fire when his body lands on it after getting cut.

[@FunnyFreak_]

@@gentronseven anakin lit on fire because his body/clothes touched the lava stream

[@CommanderZx2]

The high ground is probably only beneficial on a macro level rather than individual fight. For example in the case where an attacking army would be tiring themselves out marching up a steep hill while the defending army can roll rocks down at them, shoot arrows, etc.

[@TechnoMinarchistBall]

Also, gravity. The army on the hill can press down on the army (with shields and spears) below them easier than the army below can push up.

[@zJoriz]

They point this out in the video. You watched till the end?

[@kikixchannel]

@@TechnoMinarchistBall This may actually be deceptive. I cannot say one way or another for sure, but I can see a few arguments why that wouldn't be the case. For example the fact that when you are pushing someone down, the reaction of the force from the one below goes upwards towards the sky, rather than towards the ground. Basically, part of the strength used to push for the person on the high ground goes towards...lifting themselves. Depending on the angles and the strengths used, this can be outright catastrophic. Another part is a different angle on looking...at the angle. Imagine this. When you are on the low ground, you start 'lifting' a person below their center of gravity. Furthermore, to lift them overhead you need far less force, as you never need to lift them straight up. They are already above your level so you just need to move them, say, upper 45 degrees instead of the full 90 degrees. When you combine the two above it means that when it comes to direct match of strength, the person below has a solid foundation to use their full strength, while the person above is using some of their strength to counteract their own weight. Of course, things are a bit different if you are talking about a charge which depends on the impact, not a contest of continuous strength (like a shield pushing against shield). The added downward momentum gives you a completely unquestionable advantage in dealing damage. However, you will also receive a much stronger recoil and are more likely to trip, so it needs to be used properly.

[@foxymetroid]

It also has two additional advantages: 1. Projectiles fired from higher up have a better range 2. The side higher up can often see further, giving them more time to prepare for an approaching enemy

[@TrueKoalaKnight]

The moment I saw this video title I felt a need to mention that "high ground" is large scale military tactic not a an individual fighting tactic.

[@chrisknight5960]

See The high ground really wasn't that important. He just tricked Anakin into trying for The high ground

[@funkydiscogod]

In Episode 1 Kenobi offed Maul from low ground.

[@wierdsnake]

@@funkydiscogod and Grievous

[@gaberielpendragon]

High ground is just an idiom for having the advantage.

[@theironfox2756]

A batman gambit, then.

[@MrGhosta5]

You forgot to take the lava into account. If Anakin had stepped onto the slope he would have had to fight on semi molten rock with the lava behind him. All Obi-one would have to do is push Anakin in. We saw earlier that both Anakin and Obi-one have equal power force push so Anakin would have been pushed into the lava while Obi-one would have just been pushed up the hill. Or Obi-one could just fight defensively until the lava rose up behind Anakin.

[@highground7761]

Obi/One 😭

[@Scarlet_moon.]

you are clearly missing the point where the person that is on high ground can never step forward as that would mean walking into blade and losing the balance.

[@jeusmarcomascarina4102]

High ground are meant for long range weapon not melee.

[@lichfinn2711]

Nah, in the original, unfinished, version of the fight, Obi wan would actually try to use lava against Anakin mid-fight, but Anakin would create like a force shield or something like that(i dont remember exactly, but the fact is he would be unaffected)

[@SomeGuy-qh6rw]

@@jeusmarcomascarina4102 It is actually meant for a lot more than that. For instance, cavalry has a huge advantage having the high ground. Charging the high ground on the other hand, not so much. Things change in general when you are talking about armies, versus one on one.

[@icycrusader1947]

Shad you cannot do this to me. "It's over Anakin, I have the high ground!" Has been words that I live by alongside "I don't like sand."

[@JarieSuicune]

It's fine, just never get stuck in a single-sword vs single-sword with no armor or shield duel on a hill and you're golden. Well, I guess a mirror match of daggers or other shorter melee weapon might have much the same problem. But other than that, you should probably be fine to keep that line happily in your mind. Also, sand is great! Especially when it is made into glass for these wonderful screens we use! (Otherwise, yeah, sand kinda sucks.)

[@icycrusader1947]

@@JarieSuicune So I should get a lightspear and tower shield.

[@matthiuskoenig3378]

@JarieSuicune say that after liveing in a desert. Stand is horrible untill you turn it into glass and then it's no longer sand anymore.

[@robertlewis6915]

It's coarse and grainy and gets everywhere.

[@agelesseon]

While we're on the subject of movie sword fighting, perhaps you guys could go over Highlander as well. Specifically, if you 3 were all immortals, what swords are you each using to keep your heads and take someone else's?

[@MiguelMedV]

Awesome idea! That film doesn't get often talked about, so I would love to see that 😁💪🏼💯...

[@dwarlord3716]

The movie or the TV series?

[@DavidSmith-vr1nb]

​@@dwarlord3716 The first movie is all that exists.

[@KhanGarth]

Assuming as a Highlander you’re stronger and have more stamina than a normal human, a great sword which you should be able to swing around with little effort.

[@lonelystrategos]

Why go with a sword at all? Why not a poleaxe?

[@mattobito]

I always thought the quote fit the situation: the low ground was the closest to lava with no protection from stepping in if Obi-wan pressed him, so Anakin needed to distance himself from the magma if he wanted to continue the fight with Kenobi. However, the only way Anakin can bypass that danger would be to jump over Kenobi, which is why Obi says to not try it as he would be exposed to a counter attack.

[@bragnir]

Yeah.... I bet Shad wouldn't like his low ground so much if the floor was literally lava...

[@Godzillawolf1]

Good video. There are a few factors about the fight that I feel were overlooked: Obi-Wan's entire fighting style is defensive, intended to maintain an unbreakable defense until his opponent messes up, he wouldn't be making the mistake of being tricked into going on the offensive. And two: the hill side that Anakin would have had to fight on was less stable than the ground Obi-Wan was standing on. Ob-Wan is shown to be standing on volcanic rock, while Anakin was shown sliding down a much sandier and less solid. So would the high ground person having a solid footing while the low ground person is dealing with unstable ground give the person on the high ground the edge? I would say it might. Of course canonically the real reason is Anakin wanted to kill Obi-Wan the same way he killed Maul, and Obi-Wan knew that's what Anakin would do because of his arrogance, and unlike Maul was prepared for it while Maul was taken off guard.

[@Songfugel]

Like he famously didn't go on the offensive vs Darth Maul 😅

[@StickNik]

@@Songfugel Defensive fighting doesn't proclude offensive techniques. A fight is generally by it's nature offensive, just that the style can lean more one way or the other. I would say from memory that Obi-Wan doesn't get truly aggressive until Qui-Gon loses, and prior he and Qui-Gon were outnumbering Maul, but he wasn't that aggressive beyond that, nor having much luck, being knocked around falling off catwalks. Even after his aggression, he does cut the saber in half, but falls in the pit. Besides that, he is more defensive vs. Dooku both times, has the defensive reputation in books and extended materials, but in particular is explicitly and clearly defensive throughout the whole Anakin fight. You can argue that he taught Anakin much of his aggressive tactics, but the majority of film runtime I'd say we see Obi-Wan as fairly defensive, you just have to be offensive to win exchanges and fights.

[@xertris]

@@Songfugel That was before he focused on developing his defense. Seeing his master worn down and killed by maul made him change his fighting style tobetter handle that scenario. Before his fight with Maul, Obi-wan primarily used Form IV: Ataru. The same form Qui-gon and Yoda specilized in. A style characterized by a constant flowing offense facilitated by alot of acrobatics. It worked well on the offense, and was decent against multiple opponets. The downside is that it tired out the user alot since alot of the moves required the practitioner to boost their bodies strength with the force. If a user couldn't overwhelm their opponent in the offense intitally they could run themselves out, and open themself up to more attacks once they lost the strength to dodge. This is what happend to Qui-Gon. Fighting maul alone for that longk using that style, at his age eventually tired him out to the point where maul could get a finishing blow. The same thing happened to Obi-wan too. He was flipping around Maul's blade and pushing the offense, but Maul didn't break. Obi-wan got caught out and nearly sent falling to his (likely) death. If not for mauls overconfidence Obi-wan would have been killed too. Learning from this, Obi-wan eventually adopted new style Form III: Soresu. A combat form that prioritises the effcient use of movement to create a nearly unbreakable and sustainable defense. Stonewalling your opponents until they gave an opening that could be quickly exploited. At first Obi-wan would supplement his form IV with it, but by the end of the clone wars Obi-wan became a form III master. He was one of the only jedi with a defense strong enough to go toe to toe with General Grevious thanks to his defenseive training and expertise.

[@Paradox-es3bl]

Anakin is on a floating platform in the lava, not on unstable ground. What are you talking about? They even show the clip.

[@jgamez106]

⁠​⁠@@Paradox-es3blI’m pretty sure they’re talking about how after he gets chopped up he slides down also as you mentioned he would’ve had to jump regardless because of the lava which I think is why obi wan is so confident and also why he advises Anakin not to advance. Shad should’ve tested with one man who has their foot and the other has to jump from a platform to the hill

[@lew526]

I think the lava was an important element of the "high ground" in the duel. It wasn't just two men standing on a hill dueling: it was two Force users, one standing on safe, dry ground, and the other standing over lava. Even the edge of the "dry" ground that Anakin could have stepped onto was hot enough to grill his flesh, as we saw right after he fell.

[@Untolddead]

I think if you were armored and didn't have insta kill weapons there may still be benefits for the high ground. Like if your feet had plate it wouldn't matter if they hit you.

[@WhatsTheTakeaway]

You can block sword strikes from low ground just by resting your swordtip on tje ground in front of your feet. Plus it's a lot easier to rain blows on their head from high ground. And we all know the head is way more important than feet.

[@Songfugel]

Yes, like mounted knights for example. And swords/slashing weapons in general were really not that popular as a main weapon in real combat in wars, since they were practically useless vs the most common types of armor available

[@JarieSuicune]

@@WhatsTheTakeaway Resting your swordtip on the ground (from a high-ground location)... which is probably a good 6-18 inches lower than it would be on a level surface? That doesn't sound like a good tradeoff. Is "easier to rain blows (against a person in a position optimised to block and counter them)" more important than anything else? "The head is way more important than feet" does matter for a finishing blow... if you can land it. Guess what? If the feet go, the head is suddenly a MUCH easier target.

[@JarieSuicune]

@@Songfugel So... rather than considering the scenario in question, let's just discuss a completely different situation and how it has a different result? What is the point then?

[@WhatsTheTakeaway]

@@JarieSuicune Im not engaging in "fight talk" where we try to counter each other over multiple posts. With both opponents being equally skilled, higher ground is superior for offense and defense.

[@RandomMackem3247]

If we used metal swords, the battle at Hastings hill is a really good example of the high ground being superior as Williams army has to run up the hill, while Harold’s army just has to stand their and keep their shields up, but they decided to make a stupid decision like anakin and try and chase Williams army down the hill which allowed them to get flanked and crushed by Williams army, I knew history class would be useful one day

[@JarieSuicune]

How is that a good example of high ground superiority? It just sounds like a great example of the foolishness of Harold's strategem, which doesn't prove that doing otherwise would have guaranteed victory. It just proves that what he DID do was a poor decision. We can theorize and assume all we want, but that doesn't mean it definitely would have gone differently. (I dunno, was William just as stupid or did he possibly have a plan to counter the high-ground advantage that never came up because it became negated by Harold?) That's not to say that the high ground isn't an advantage when used properly, just that someone failing to use it is not evidence of its value.

[@chaos.corner]

@@JarieSuicune The story as I heard it was that William's army knew they had a tough fight uphill so feinted running away to trick Harold's army into pursuing them and giving up their advantage. The truth of the matter is anyone's guess though. Modern news can't get things right even when there's video recordings so the best weight I can give something from 1000 years ago is hopeful speculation.

[@RandomMackem3247]

@@JarieSuicune because William couldn’t break through, try reading next time it’s not hard

[@trygveplaustrum4634]

Battle, the site of the Battle of Hastings (not actually the city of Hastings) is a very lovely place. Even when eroded, the slopes feel formidable. You can feel the rush as you match uphill!

[@sirhenry9313]

I have the high ground! Also, the low ground is covered in Lava and hot enough to melt the soles of your shoes to your feet so the only way you have to continue fighting me is to jump to my level/over me, which I wholeheartedly don't recommend. Bit wordy

[@MrHinterschinken]

Why does no one mention this problem? Anakin cannot just go ahead and attack like shad did.

[@foldionepapyrus3441]

One thing to remember is while the low ground only has to guard their head the high only really has to guard their legs - but as guarding your legs is rather less common than footwork on the flat it might well be more a lack of practice in the required styles to use a sword to actively defend your legs... Edit: Also you take a shot to the leg but deliver one to the torso the outcome of a double is rather more likely to favour the high ground too.

[@sidecharacter7165]

Add Shields or projectiles into the mix for large formations.

[@Disgruntled_Grunt]

I'd rather keep my leg than take that trade. Edit: apparently some people are having trouble with reading comprehension. I'm saying I would rather disengage (ie take a step backward) than kill my opponent and lose my leg in the process, and let the right continue from there.

[@JosepiThe13th]

@@Disgruntled_GruntYou’d rather keep your leg than your head? You can’t be serious 💀

[@Disgruntled_Grunt]

@@JosepiThe13th Not quite what I said.

[@CowsGoM3ow]

​@@Disgruntled_Gruntmissing brain cells alert

[@Multi-Tech]

Maybe it's just me, but I always took the "high ground" line to be more so about the lava, rather than the actual dual.

[@Likexner]

What?

[@mandowarrior123]

Duel, and yes, he meant strong position generally.

[@JarieSuicune]

@@Likexner I assume they had interpreted Obi-wan's line to be like, "I have the high ground (of this situation! If I misstep or fall, I'm on dirt. If you do, you get a lava bath.)"

[@MrHinterschinken]

PLEASE!!!! Why does no one mention the LAVA in this situation? Anakin has LAVA in front of his feet. He cannot just walk and attack obi wan. He MUST jump anyway. But if he would jump on the "low ground" infront of Obi-Wan he would have his lightsaber in his face and the lava straight in his back. The ONLY way to attack Obi-Wan is to jump over him. But that is a huge mistake because Obi-Wan has high ground. Normaly its not hard to jump over another person for a jedi/sith. But NOT if the opponent stand in a higher position.

[@BBTManiac]

This. Quick skim in the video shows the methodology is flawed since the variables are supposed to include being able to force jump over people and up hills. In all instances, Obi-wan and height were about the gap close and follow up options or lack thereof. Explicitly not a grounded fight on solid footwork ground where the cards are completely different. Aerial defense and aerial interception are huge components of Obi vs Maul and Obi vs Anakin. Unless star wars mention is clickbait since testing for fantastical gap closers is unrealistic.

[@JarieSuicune]

True, if one is considering the battle scenario as a whole. However, that is not the case here. Here, the question is simply the application of the phrase "I have the high ground" as relating to being universally true in any single-sword duel. However, also, Anakin is just an idiot. He's got the Force, why didn't he just levitate the platform or Force-push Obi-wan from where he was or leap 50 ft. into the air then forward for a safe jump or something else to get any balance in the fight? It's not like he was even having any difficulty just staying where he was either and attacking at range. He was just too unwilling to not constantly show his aggression and power. Answer: Anakin is a hot-headed idiot who doesn't actually think things through. If anything, that was the "real" high ground: strategy. Something Anakin refused to learn.

[@VegetaLF7]

Or, you know, Anakin could have jumped to either side of Obi-Wan instead of going over the top

[@dancorneanu9144]

​@@JohnSmith-ty2heOr, you know... he is right.

[@dancorneanu9144]

@@JohnSmith-ty2he Apply simple logic. Anakin is a Sith. There is no way for him to move foreward with no death. Force abilities land him in lava. The Obi Wan fight with Maul and what Anakin thought had been a thing forever. Those are proof for his position. You brought none.

[@WhoahMyGod]

Hold up, I want to see them test the high ground being level, and the low ground being angled. It may or may not have made a difference but worth evaluating.

[@fistsofsnake5475]

It probablly made easier to move back for person higher

[@Thedarkbunnyrabbit]

Yeah, they used a rather steep incline. This is not every single kind of high ground, and multiple issues they encountered would have been solved if it were a more level high ground. Or if the sabers had proper guards on them. And it only addresses rapier style combat. You could say they were only trying to disprove the exact circumstance of the fight, but the two were not fighting on a lovely grassy hill, they were fighting in front of a lava flow. Anakin was on a floating bit of metal over the lava, and Anakin lunging backward would likely cause him to lose his footing. You can tell it's a bad test because the guy with experience is baffled at the end because it's not what his experience tells him.

[@vraku9624]

​​@@Thedarkbunnyrabbit Nate also noted that his experience wasn't with swords only, but sword and shield, polearms, spears, and full plate armor. In lightsabre fights, there is non of that. Wich their teat showed it perfectly. Also kenobi wasn't on a flat high ground either, so why would the test on a flat highground matter in this specific situation?

[@vraku9624]

It would make a huge difference cause if you sit on a flat platform then you can use that to hide your feet behind the edge andtechnically just wait for the oponent to make a bad move and try to climb up top wich would not end in the same scenario as on a hill, cause you can have that edge of the platform to protect a good part of your feet, and also have enough mobility to move back in time

[@Thedarkbunnyrabbit]

@@vraku9624 because the test attempts to make it more generic than just 'that hyper specific situation'. But if it's that hyper specific situation this test doesn't cover it either, because the fight was not on a grassy hill, it was over a lava flow on uneven ground where there was constant danger of sliding down into the lava.

[@theshadow2576]

Force powers would play a big advantage on the high ground especially with lava behind him.

[@Chronoflation]

The low ground position here was at the base of the hill. What if you inversed it and put the high ground person on the flat top of the hill and the low ground on the hillside, or also both on the hillside? I mean, Anakin did need to get off of the low ground since he was on a piece of hovering rubble floating down a river of lava about to go over a lavafall and Obi-wan didn't leave him much low ground beneath where he could reach land, so the high ground may have been strategically advantageous in that situation where Anakin had to cross onto the hill from the river, despite not generally being advantageous

[@lukerogers9348]

I personally for years have always believed Obi-Wan tricked Anikin into jumping. Knowing that Ani would expose himself do to his pure rage of wanting to be better then Obi-Wan.

[@ethanv7330]

Could be but unlikely. More likely is he just meant, I have the advantage. If you look at the ground Obi stood on. It was solid and stable. The ground Anakin would later fall to is gravel at best. As you can see he can't get a firm grip and slips into the lava.

[@lukerogers9348]

@@ethanv7330 In terms of terrain, that is true. However, not only as a Jedi, but also as a military veteran and general, he would be prepared for difficult terrain to jump on. Obi-Wan knows this and wouldn't state he had an advantage for no reason.

[@ciaranbrk]

In the Star Wars context Anakin was on a floating robot above the lava if he tried to jump off in front of Kenobi Obi-Wan could have rushed him causing Anakin to lose his balance if he charged Anakin or force pushed him. In general though the high ground would be better for spear combat or halberd combat with archers.

[@yannickbiemans8946]

I believe that high/low ground advantage greatly depends on the weapon used. If you have a large shield (such as a kiteshield) you can protect your legs easily on the high ground while the one on the low ground would need to raise his shield/guard to defend.

[@b_korthuis]

Not to mention the person higher up can get more full and powerful strokes aimed at the head and chest while the low ground is going to have a reduced and less powerful stroke aimed the chest and legs.

[@JarieSuicune]

Of course equipment matters and changes the situation, and they straight-up state that in the video. The question is ONLY in reference to a lightsaber sword vs sword on an incline, no armor/shields/sideweapon/etc.

[@Warhawk.]

Too steep of an incline can be a disadvantage for the person on the high ground, as it might hamper mobility and balance. The key is to find your preferred fighting position based on your weapon(s), fighting style, plan, and skill level. Standing at the upper/flatter part of a hill, and forcing the opponent to fight on a slight incline would likely be more advantageous for sword sparring than having both opponents standing on the awkward incline. Likewise, fighting from the flat top of a flight of stairs would give more advantages to the person on stable ground. As opposed to the opposite, fighting someone on flat ground at the bottom of a flight of stairs from the stairs, or both fighters being on the stairs. You must consider all of these variables when addressing the generic absolute statement of 'the high ground has the advantage in a 1-vs-1 sword fight'.

[@Mattias_the_unimpressive]

Besides the meme, Anakin's "low ground" was either balancing on a hovering barstool over lava or lower ground right next to lava, with Obiwan blocking access to stable high ground.

[@iitim2152]

So in warfare where you hold the high ground that doesn't mean fighting from the slope, it means forcing them to climb the hill, circumvent your defenses and engaging them with your pole arms while they are entangled in whatever obstacle you constructed. It also gives you more range with archers, more momentum with calvary, and more observational clarity for formation movements ....

[@MrBottlecapBill]

Yup this is it. It's not the physical fighting that the advantage comes from but other important factors like fatigue(having to climb just before you engage), extra range and power for missile weapons, easier and more powerful strikes from pole arms(gravity helping the uphill combatants,)and the fact the army on the hill can see everything going on while you can't even see past their front ranks which makes out maneuvering and tactics very difficult from the bottom but much easier from the top. The devil is in the details.

[@njalsand133]

And having a good overview

[@andrasbiro3007]

And this is why you should watch the video to the end before commenting. They explained exactly this at the end.

[@iitim2152]

@@andrasbiro3007 your not wrong.... Lol. Had the same thought when the video ended

[@bilboswaggings]

High ground is an advantage if you have range: Blasters, force powers... On top of that Obi-Wan used it to egg Anakin on to make him reckless It also wasn't just about high ground, Anakin was on a moving platform and it was clear Obi wasn't going to engage The area they were in doesn't leave much space for Anakin (if he just steps forward) because he is surrounded by lava, so on top of low/high ground Obi had much more space

[@wattsonthetube]

It could also be about distance. When you're already next to each other, the high ground might not offer many benefits, but if you apply the concept more generally, then it's about the journey from the low ground to the high ground. For e.g. you see your enemy coming from the high ground, you have time to act because it takes them time to get to you. It also wears the enemy out, trying to get to you. Obi-Wan saw Anakin leaping towards him, which gave him time to strike.

[@CreepyMF]

That was really surprising how that turned out, i really did think having the high ground was so important in battle and having seen the movie and the memes it just become ingrained that it was the best position to be in that circumstance. Also hyped for the exclusive content, that will be a treat :D

[@greenman4508]

It changes it when you can front flip twenty feet in the air while moving ambiguous black ship parts.

[@JarieSuicune]

Too bad he didn't jump just a couple feet further up. Woulda made all the difference.

[@GU5S]

I'd argue this is a very unique situation. The biggest factor for me was the lava. Had Anakin jumped to the low ground he would be in the precarious position of having nothing but lava behind him, very vulnerable to a force push back into it. Obi Wans style is largely defensive, infact he was one of if not the best Jedis in defensive lightsabre style combat. Also the ground is not solid like a grass hill, it is loose volcanic ash. Could this help aid the advantage of the high ground? Especially seeing as Obi Wan appeared to be on better ground than the surface Anakin would be on had he simply jumped to the low ground. Its all very speculative and unique to their situation, but I do think that whilst Obi Wan was trying to bait Anakin, there was truth to what he said too. In their situation, there and then, he had gained an advantage.

[@brendonw456]

Well, as they established here, Obi-wan making any forward momentum was not an option. He would be *more* likely to throw himself into the lava than Anakin...and using a force push to knock Anakin into the lava goes both ways. Anakin can force push Obi-wan's ankle and make him tumble down the hill...all without even leaving his floating platform. And furthermore, the option for Anakin to pivot around Obi-wan to give himseld more space is also still there. He could have just lept to Obi-wan's left side (Anakin's right), as Obi-wan flattened his stance when he made that declaration, which means he left one side with shorter reach. Not that the reach even matters, since Anakin was clearly capable of jumping *over* Obi-wan, he would be able to cover a longer distance horizontally to keep himself out of attack range...and then continue fighting Obi-wan from the same height.

[@electricpizza5774]

The "high ground" line has a double meaning. Obi-wan holds both the literal high ground as well as the moral high ground.

[@JoeStuffzAlt]

I didn't realize until now how good a Gungan shield was until you mentioned it. Apparently physical attacks might pass through, but they were in a world with a lot of laser fire. Also, with a light saber, just a nick could be devastating, especially on the foot

[@grandmyotismon]

In the case of mustafar it was, anakin jumping on the terrain infront of kenobi would be jumping on loose rocks that his torso would later ride down the lava bank. It was the terrain that was advantageous on the high ground for obi.

[@Shiftinggers]

I'd argue the high ground is useful for ranged weapons/spears/pikes, not for saber fencing

[@sirsteam6455]

Even for saber fencing, having much better access to the opponents head, neck and upper torso and coupled with better manipulation of gravity would make it an advantage. Of course there are limits to it but the high ground has always been a strategic importance whether for armies or regular combat, the difference comes in scale and manipulation.

[@JarieSuicune]

@@sirsteam6455 You didn't even watch the video, huh?

[@sirsteam6455]

@@JarieSuicune I did, doesn't mean i agree however, and it is not like Shad and the lads are professionals regardless.

[@Varadiio]

That's really a problem with most discussions on "tactics" made by modern speculators. When the first caveat is "we're not counting polearms etc, this is about swords" the historical record has almost no evidence to support your findings. Swords, and especially swords with no shields, were rarely used as front line primary weapons. Even the ubiquitous Gladius of the Roman Legions is overstated in importance beside their other standard weapons. It's not that testing the idea is invalid, just that historically, they wouldn't choose high or low ground to maximize the potential of their swords, as that wouldn't be a consideration. There are entire categories of tools, traps, and so on, like a simple rolling log, that can be absolutely devastating or completely useless, depending on terrain. So many of such things would contribute far more than a dueling disadvantage to the lower extremities.

[@sirsteam6455]

@@Varadiio True, however what is in the historical record is the mention and repetition by soldiers and generals of the necessity to control the high ground, of course this has purposes outside combat but taking the battle of hastings as an example, on which the Normans won by disrupting the English forces formation of which was on a hill, which they could not dislodge by uphill fighting. So there is precedent for the advantage of high ground in battle, dueling however would be a different topic and would thusly vary much more but given it is easier to move down hill than up and the easier access to the head and other regions, it isn't hard to speculate an advantage but said advantage would hold much less weight in a duel and depending on any number of variables. Now of course that is missing the point of this being primarily sword focused but given the variables and the trend it would not be too great a stretch that the high ground is a general advantage regardless of weapon but this would be hard to affirm or test and thus is speculation. And given the amount of things possible in a fight it would thus depend on what is considered an advantage and in what regard to the original statement.

[@justinn8541]

High Ground is most useful for ranged attacks.

[@sidecharacter7165]

Or if you have a good shield or pike or bludgeon.

[@NerfThisBoardGames]

Is KZbin truely so young no one remembers the Mythbusters covering this explicitly Wish they did it with shields

[@cavalieroutdoors6036]

I don't recall that episode. Might have missed it.

[@NerfThisBoardGames]

@@cavalieroutdoors6036 big movie myths iirc This, Indy Jones whip, and.... Shooting a gas tank perhaps.. Haven't watched it in over a decade

[@McDonald_Mando]

This did the same thing that myth busters did. Anakin was too far away from obi wan for them to fight like that. Like he had to do a giant jump to reach him (obviously he didn’t have to jump but still) Great video though

[@evilmandrake]

From my personal experience in my fencing club, high ground is an advantage, and simple numbers can show it. At the end of each session, we would have some sort of full-scale battle involving ever member present. One of those was a team "King-of-the-Hill" style, where the attacking team would have to fight up the stair well to capture the defending teams landing. Being at a disadvantage, the attacking team was given a larger number a fencers to use, but it Defense still won 60% of the time.

[@Menelutorex]

man .... its not because hill, but defence is easier than offense ...

[@flashspider-man3214]

Great video, of course. Though I should point out its different w/o lava. There was lava between them and Anakin was going to need to get off his platform. I wonder if your results are different if the low ground is trying to get onto the hill at the bottom. Then does the high ground help cause it's stable and you can focus on the attack? Also, side note: lightsabers pull. Perhaps, you could argue, that pull is what prevents being able to use it like a rapier. It prob wouldn't be reasonable to test but I wonder what fighting styles would become effective if using magnetic rods or something, though obviously it depends on the strength of the magnet. Just something worth thinking about. Thanks for making the videos. You all are awesome.

[@BBanzaj]

one thing you guys leave out, Obi was running the whole fight, anakin was charging him. maybe the power of the high ground is that forcing your lower oponent to walk up the slope is the thing that will fuck them up.

[@ShieldWife]

I’m a fencer and I’ve long thought that the low ground would be the more advantageous position. I also noticed that when trying to fight most efficiently, they essentially start fencing rather than using long sword techniques that people typically associate with lightsaber fighting. In fact, it’s kind of like Sabre or epee fencing with most of the blows landing on the hands and arms - something else I have long thought was true about lightsaber fighting.

[@marcusdirk]

Fascinating. Now I want to re-watch your fight scene analysis of the Obi Wan - Anakin fight. I don't remember if you said anything about a possible low-ground sword advantage there. Also in a video on medieval duelling you showed instances of someone who was obviously weaker being compensated by their opponent being forced to fight in a hole. Obviously that's not exactly the same as high ground because it would limit not just their movement but how they could use a sword too.

[@Jet-lx8uh]

Great video! I'm curious if a few other factors could influence the fight too, as someone else put, Obi-Wan had a solid rock to stand on while anakin would have been on a more steep slope of volcanic gravel. On this point this calls back to the challenge of the pirates episode where stepping backwards makes you all far less stable than going forward. Combining that with gravel might make an aggressive repost more beneficial because of the opponents challenge while disengaging. Added that the bottom of the hill is a lava river (so limited ground) while up the hill is just more ground (virtually unlimited ground). Granted the points made about guarding being easier/harder can't get ignored for sure. But perhaps a simple lunge and guard is the wrong approach as opposed to a passade or similar? Perhaps more experimentation required?

[@GJR44]

To be fair I've gotta make 2 points 1. Anakin didn't try to jump over Obi Wan because the high ground was such a big advantage, but to defeat Obi Wan the same way that Obi Wan had defeated Maul in Phantom Menace 2. The best fighting technique for the person who's in the high ground is a more defensive figting style, which, it seems, none of you guys are very nused to using, but Obi Wan was a master at Soresu (Form III) which is already a very defensive fighting style Don't take this as any sort of way to criticize your work, your videos are always awesome and I just wanted to add to the discussion, great video as always Edit: as a third point I've seen on other comments, Obi Wan knew Anakin very well and could playing mind games on Anakin

[@PolishTamales]

1. Doesn't make much sense. There isn't much banter between the Obi/Anakin concerning Maul in the mainline movies. There was never build up towards any mention about Obi's "grand tales" sort of thing, other than the elevator scene where they were trying to deliver exposition on what they were doing in-between films. It would make sense if there was a scene where a youngling asked Obi to tell the story of how he killed a Sith, while Anakin making a disgruntled huff about, "This story again, my master?" 2. I completely agree. Based on legends, Form 3 would be Obi's default stance. There's no way he would switch to any other lethal form, as he was only seeking to stop Anakin, hence complete dismemberment in the defense style. At best, the "high ground" was more of a taunt by Obi-Wan since they were evenly matched and he couldn't find any other way to stop Anakin in a prolonged fight (which already was). Obi was known for "snippy" dialog with General Grievous and Count Dooku in prior films. In other words; yes, he loved to troll his opponents and his "high ground" taunt saved him.

[@GJR44]

@@PolishTamales correct me if I'm wrong, but I think in the novelization says that Anakin tried to defeat Obi Wan the same way that Obi Wan defeated Maul to kind of boost his ego or something

[@PolishTamales]

@@GJR44 Novelization of Star Wars movies is not an excuse for a bad script. RLM and various content creators with actual film backgrounds frown upon movies that forces it's viewers to review books and content outside of the films. IE: Homework It doesn't take much time to tell a story. Look at Pixar's "UP" where it took a brief few minutes to tell a zookeeper's love story. There's no reason to expect your audience to buy a handful of books, study Wookiepedia; either prior or after viewing a movie. If it didn't happen in the film, it's didn't happen.

[@GJR44]

@@PolishTamales I get your point, but what did you expect? Anakin to say "I'm going to jump to defeat you just like you did to Maul"? I think that expanded content is very valuable to add this small details and if not for expanded content we wouldn't know that Obi Wan focused on a defensive fighting form, everything would just be speculation based on a few fight scenes

[@aaronsanborn4291]

As a career combat soldier the high ground definitely gives you the advantage in 99.9% of situations even if it's minimal...if someone is coming at you up a hill even in hand to hand combat their reach is limited and they will have a harder time striking your vital areas whereas while your strikes at their lower body is reduced they have to worry more about you striking their vitals with even more leverage...but hey I only spent 15+ years as a scout and infantry

[@KhanGarth]

This is borne out of a basic misunderstanding of the Obi/Ani scene in question. 1) Obi-wan was daring him to F around and find out, which of course Ani did. 2) It was really more of a visual representation of the fact that Obi-wan had him on the ropes because Anakin was so unbelievably tilted which Obi knew would cause him to basically defeat himself.

[@agente2842]

☝️🤓 Actually, in the movie Anakin didnt tried jumping over obi wan to gain the high ground, but because he wanted to humiliate him, defeating obi wan the same way obi wan defeated maul decades ago + fun fact In some translations of the movie, like the braziliam version, obi wan says something closer to "I am in solid ground/stable terrain" wich actually kinda makes more sense

[@apmoln1815]

As a star wars nerd i can approve this

[@jesuslopez-uy4hd]

In the latin Spanish dub he says he holds the advantage or is ahead in the fight "Llevo la delantera" which is appropriate if you go by the theory that Obi was trying to trick him into doing something stupid by appealing to his fragile ego.

[@ph1shstyx]

Yup, Anakin wanted to defeat him like Obi Wan defeated maul, though he didn't know that obi wan had spent the last 2 decades knowing how to defeat this attack.

[@RepairCat]

@@jesuslopez-uy4hd In the german localization he says "Ich stehe deutlich über dir." which could be translated literally as "I stand way above you", but means something along the lines of "I´m clearly superior." Also fits him trying to bait Anakin into attacking recklessly.

[@claytonmcgrew5874]

The reason why the high ground was important in this specific fight is more lore driven. Think back to when kenobi won the duel against Darth Maul. He somehow did the impossible and beat him from a massively disadvantageous position. You can imagine after that moment he thought of every type of way that could have gone wrong, every way Maul could have countered him if he hadn’t been caught off guard. Kenobi had the advantage on the high ground because he has had the most experience and has thought, for close to a decade, about every possible variable and counter could have been used against him and Anakin knows this. It’s argument of experience vs arrogance

[@MoistGoop]

Shad brother.... Obi Wan is a low ground fighter. He trains his apprentices the high ground because it is a precautionary tool to use against them in case they turn to the dark side. In lore, Obi Wan lies to Anakin the whole time. He said with tears "Don't try it", which made that part valuable to story and development. So yes, the high ground is highly ineffective and Star Wars knew what they were doing.

[@rockinHurley777]

Which*

[@MoistGoop]

@@rockinHurley777 ah thnx

[@redbeard5939]

Great content. One thing I'd like to point out is that, in the movie, it looks like Obi-Wan is close to an area where the slooe plateaus. What would be the effect if the higher combatant is on flat grpund while the lower remains on the slope? Would that solve the issues with the forward foot and inability to step back?

[@SMSiders]

Awesome! Thank you. And like you mentioned at the beginning, I''d love to see the same test on stairs!

[@Dormons]

From my experience being on the flatter top of a hill or stairs means that you're restricting the opponents forward and backward movement while having free movement yourself and the height difference isn't much of a problem.

[@DemonaeTV]

Shad I HAVE to disagree about the stairs!!!! The stairs all run clockwise in a castle for a reason, and they are narrow for a reason! Most people are right handed. when you are trying to advance up a narrow staircase running clockwise, you can't engage your sword hand without hitting the wall. The defender though CAN use both sword and shield very effectively because of the increased radius of the outer wall of the staircase. It makes a huge difference, and they were built like that on purpose. Put a narrow circle of rope around a tree, and fight Taryn while you stay inside the circle, you with your right arm by the tree, and Taryn with his right arm out away from the tree.

[@samamies88]

These stair talks are just tourist guide bulls***. Look up any actual historical source trying to back it up and all you find are modern guesses. Also try and think about it... if enemy is already in.. already in the main castle going already towards main tower.... don't you think the fight was already lost? There is nowhere to go but up. You can just block the last survivors from getting food and they are done. Most likely reason for these staircases actually might had been because back then they didn't have rails for hands going around the stairs and the main light sources were candles, lamps etc something you carried by hand. Going down you need your free hand to touch wall because going down while balancing something hot on your hands is harder than going up both hands free. Just pick a glass of water and try (works even on straight stairs, it is much easier to spill water going down than going up). There aren't much support for this theory either but the combat stair theory relies on very situational last ditch effort to survive while the candle theory would have pretty close to everyday use. Thus i see candle theory far more likely out of these 2.

[@aarons.8161]

I think one possible advantage having the high ground has, especially in a one on one dual, is not only the height, but the possible weight advantage as well. For instance, if this was more of life and death fight rather than a... "strike hands for points" type fight, and of course if the two weren't afraid to get rough with each other, then the one with the high ground could in fact lunge at their lower ground opponent. Not necessarily as a thrust, but as a sort of defensive push/slash. Where in you raise your sword up to guard against what ever strike the lower opponent makes, then with your height and weight you force a bind and push through. If your lucky, you can push their sword to the side and make an opening to get at their neck or other vital/exposed part of them. Alternatively, just use your height and weight advantage to shove them down the hill. The later could also be done if your willing to risk your leg to kick them down instead. Either way, they will then have to get back up and climb back up the hill after you again, expending much of their energy to do so. All the while, your just chilling, relaxing, and waiting for them to climb back up after you... just so you can shove/kick them back down again. Eventually tiring them out to where you can easily finish them off. Assuming they don't just give up and go home cause they are just to tired to even try climbing the hill again.

[@teruphoto]

For that particular scene, the advantage was Anakin would have to advance uphill while having lava behind him, all the while dealing with the loose soil. On a normal hill, an aggressor from below would have the advantage.

[@Pir-o]

Have u guys forgot there was a huge pit of lava between them? Have u considered testing this idea with a gap you have to jump over first? Jumping at someone who's higher than you seems like a bad idea (even wthout frontflips above your enemies head).

[@Pir-o]

@@JohnSmith-ty2he unrelated to my question tho

[@dancorneanu9144]

​@@JohnSmith-ty2heThe other guy is a Jedi... We had a showing of them doing Force Pushes. Obi Wan can just push it back. And if they get unbalanced... one guy goes into lava, the other falls on his back on dirt.

[@dancorneanu9144]

@JohnSmith-ty2he You did notice who the characters were, didn't you? Or the meaning? He is doing the "flip" to prove he is better than Kenobi. It is perfectly in line with Anakin and the Sith. It's the only option a man in his position has. The alternative is to give up and admit it is over. That is the smart solution. A solution never befiting a rage taken Sith. Kenobi's words are just that. It was over. Anakin was in a horrible position. Any move would get him into a position of death. Jump in front of Kenobi.. gets cut or burned. Jump to the left or right, get cut. Force push or any force struggle... fall in lava.

[@bolbyballinger]

One on one I feel like you WANT to utilize the lunge when you've got the high ground. Gravity's on your side so you should be able to do it more quickly than usual which can throw off the opponent's timing. Maybe you get a block and then, instead of disengaging it to do a slice, you try to stay on the block (presumably helped by a crossguard), and do your lunge when the opponent's blade is on the outside of you. Not saying this gives the high ground the advantage, but maybe it makes it less of a bad position?

[@davidsumner7604]

When Obi Wan says, “I have the high ground” what he means is: “I am standing on ground that is stable and it’s too high for you to jump over. If you try to jump in front of me you will fall into the lava, so your only choice is jump above me which I am ready for.” He doesn’t literally mean, “the second one of us has an elevated position that person is the guaranteed winner.” He’s simply pointing out the ground on the slopes of the lava river is too unstable unless you go high enough. Jesus Christ, I am so sick of people not getting that!

[@JacobDudlicek]

My theory is that Obiwan just made up a goofy bluff to confuse and bait Anakin. Anakin was on a power trip and wasn't thinking clearly. Anakin also just jumped over Obiwan a moment earlier to leap onto the hover platform so he said "I have the high ground" to trick Anakin into repeating, and thus telegraphing, the same move so Obiwan could alter his previous defense and outmaneuver Anakin

[@TechnoMinarchistBall]

High ground gives you the advantage in group combat.

[@erutarbrath1218]

Nothing beats a blaster paired with a lightsaber! The Jedi are foolish not to use blasters!

[@VueiyVisarelli]

"I have the high ground!" * _shins sliced in half_ * I think the high ground only matters if you're doing something like shooting arrows or rolling boulders down a hill...

[@s.owl9]

For the lightsaber crossguard, a tight Y shape would be best to catch & trap other “blades” on contact without them hitting the vulnerable machinery. If its purely for hand protection, Beskar is the best, but harder option.

[@dorkangel1076]

Nate made the point that he felt he should have been fighting defensively. Kenobi specialised in the most defensive of the Jedi styles so the higher ground might have suited his style best.

[@MouseDestruction]

I think it highlights the difference between lightsabers and steel. The high ground is going to be much better with steel as you can get a stronger swing on vital areas, especially in a formation where you cant do big horizontal swings. With a lightsaber in a 1v1 duel it doesn't matter as much, if you touch their leg its going to basically win you the fight.

[@JarieSuicune]

Define "stronger swing" with a weapon that has its weight balanced close to the hand? Sure, it's usually a bit further from the hand but not so much that it's a bladed club! You're fighting inertia more with a steel weapon than a lightsaber, at the least. (I am not a sword expert.) And, yeah, that's the point: Is the high ground an advantage in a lightsaber duel, ignoring possible armor/shields or side weapons/force powers?

[@Knoloaify]

A cut on the legs also wins you the fight with steel, it just needs to be a good cut like with everything else. In the same way, the numerous hand cuts we saw would quickly end the fight (good luck holding a sword with your fingers falling off). You don't need to kill your opponent to win. Vital areas aren't necessarily the best targets.

[@filmonewaldeabsebhat]

low ground: Glancing blows on extremities vs high ground: hits to the upper body. Being able to maybe scratch a leg from the low ground is not better than hitting you in the head from the high ground.

[@OSTATEboi419]

I've always thought the high ground thing for Obi-Wan made no sense considering that Darth Maul had the high ground on him and it meant absolutely nothing.

[@mrmittenns5728]

Well, Maul shouldve won that duel if he wasnt arrogant. Because Maul should and couldve done the exact same as obi-wan did to anakin. Obi-Wan didnt win that fight against Maul solely based on skill.

[@mandowarrior123]

Kenobi was trying one last time to make him laugh, I thought it was very good implied storytelling. Throughout the whole fight kenobi is waiting, hoping. Kenobi himself beat maul in a worse situation, but it was through calming down. I think if anakin controlled himself he would've been content to die by his hand, and, talking to vader later he does just that, realising the inevitability of anakin's return. Also, if luke loses his emotions, vader would kill him easily. Obiwan essentially guarantees his new pupil would master his emotions or die, not making the same mistake. Having said that, obiwan sees how he accepts his aunt and uncle's deaths and can be very confident he is stable. To be honest- the reason obiwan is in on tatooine is he's afraid he'll have to KILL luke if he takes after his father. Explains putting him on tatooine too.

[@JarieSuicune]

How would Luke take after his father? If not for Obi-wan, Luke would have been just an average kid. He'd never had learned Force powers, had a lightsaber, etc. There was no need to safeguard against Luke, he was waiting for the time to come to train him.

[@jotheunissen9274]

Of course the high ground sucks. Obi Wan knows it too, just look at all of his major fights Against Maul, Obi Wan was hanging on a ledge, giving Maul the high ground. Obi Wan won Against Dooku, they were on even ground in AotC as well as RotS. Obi Wan lost before Yoda/Anakin came in to save him Against Grievous, Obi Wan was flat on his stomach, giving Grievous the high ground. Obi Wan won Against Anakin, Obi Wan cut Anakins legs off the moment Anakin jumped and took the high ground. Obi Wan won Against Vader on the Death Star in NH, they were on even ground. Obi Wan got killed Obi Wan wins his battles when the OPPONENT has the high ground

[@michaelyoung7261]

Someone said it! Excellent!

[@mandowarrior123]

Obiwan gives up the high ground and introduces himself to grievous too. And it was a joke, based on this, designed to make Anakin laugh. Everyone was so upset Lucas spells things out yet this couldn't have been more obvious. More than that, obiwan has a fear of heights/flying. They also fell into a pit of gundarks so were lower there too implicitly. Obiwan was pushed up into the guard rail against dooku and the high ground literally crushed him iirc.

[@pizzaparty3901]

My thinking about is that it depends on the weapons. Ofc, ranged weapons on the high ground have a huge advantage. I also think spears and polearms have the advantage, but when the weapon is shorter, there's a point where the high ground can barely hit the low ground, and the low ground only has to defend from one angle while being able to swing at people's feat which is usually the hardest place to defend with a weapon.

[@XX-qr9qi]

I've always been of the mind that Obi-wan was baiting Vader into making a mistake. He knew that he would lose in the long run (Vader is younger and more powerful), so he took a chance and got him to jump over him

[@joranfokker7477]

It really depends

[@cyrussteele9362]

I would think that the true "High Ground" is if you are occupying the actual summit, or a t least a level area that a slope leads up to (not what was shown in ROTS). This gives the one defending the "High Ground" a level area to stand, and the ability to fight with a normal stance using footwork. The attacker moving up hill, can be held back easier, and any charges or lunges to try to break the summit has a high likelihood of putting the attacker off balance when the slope changes, leading them to pitch forward.

[@The-Mstr-Pook]

The point of Anakin's manoeuvre was to defeat Obiwan, with the same movement that Obiwan defeated Maul. Thereby showing how superior he was. It wasn't about gaining higher ground.

[@tabull8180]

Big problem I observed was that the hits to high ground leg were often at around knee. In flat the more problematic is around the ankle, well below knee anyway. And more hits were occuring since its much harder to withdraw your knee than it is to withdraw your ankle due how the leg works.

[@khodexus4963]

High ground isn't just about elevation. It's a tactical military term which refers to being in an 'advantageous' position. If you recall, Anakin wasn't just below Obi Wan, he was on a floating platform with lava separating them. He had no way of advancing WITHOUT jumping over Obi Wan. It was also meant to be reflective of the similar situation Obi Wan was in in his battle with Darth Maul where he was hanging onto a handhold in a pit and managed to overcome Maul through an unexpected maneuver despite Maul having the literal and figurative high ground.

[@rolandswift4311]

A few counter points to Shad's obsession with lightsaber "cross guards": 1) would "any swordsman worth his salt" really add a "cross guard" if forgoing one gave you an increased chance of shattering your opponents sword and increased the durability of your own? The "cross guards" are actually lateral vents that divert energy away from the primary blade, which makes the primary blade weaker than they would be if all of the power was going to it. In legends; higher power lightsabers had a chance to short out lower power ones with the chance being implied to increase with the difference in power between the two. 2) the Jedi weren't swordsman at the times we see them in the movies or TV shows. Fights between two or more lightsaber wielding opponents are incredibly rare for the Jedi between TPM and ROTJ, with less than ten in total out of hundreds of millions of enemies. Their lightsabers at the time were designed to prioritize blaster deflection and clearing obstacles over dueling, making them more akin to a machete and/or a baseball bat than a sword in terms of use, so why not have the design reflect that? In fact; Lightsaber wielding opponents where so rare that when Count Dooku designed his first lightsaber to prioritize dueling; it was seen as a sign that he was paranoid and unstable. 3) Lightsaber proof/resistant materials are far from accessible. Most of them are just incredibly rare, even in comparison to the relative scarcity of Jedi in the galaxy. Other options, like cortosis, would be incredibly difficult to work with, being imune to energy-based tools, toxic to the point where mere contact can prove lethal to most species if not properly processed, and it was just incredibly hard. Beskar, in particular, required special techniques to create and shape, techniques which were closely guarded secrets of the Mandalorians, who hated the Jedi with a passion and were only marginally mor amicable to the Sith. As for energy shields; it was stated in a Star Wars MMORPG that, while the technology to make them does exist, powering them is an ongoing challenge. Most power packs that are small enough and light enough to not impede a persons movement can only power a person sized shield for a relatively short time. This basically means you'd have to choose between carrying a pair of car batteries on your hips, or having your shield be reduced to a wire frame mid-block if the battle draws on for too long. Other potential risks include things like extreme scarcity, short shelf life, difficulty transporting, and being unstable and highly dangerous. The Gungans used an organic compound unique to Naboo to power their shields, meaning that their usability was most likely limited by combinations of scarcity and shelf life.

[@LukasJampen]

About the crossguard vs durability. It doesn't matter if your weapon is less durable if you lose your fingers way before it has any chance to break. Almost any sword has some form of finger protection (even Katana). Lighsabers don't and considering how effective at cutting of limbs are that is a ridiculously big oversight. And yes most swordsman would go for the added protection because if your weapon was so weak that it could break in a single fight they would be a moron for even choosing that weapon. Your other points in the context of Star Wars world building I agree with mostly. Especially the material for a lightsaber proof crossguard being an issue. But even with the crossguard kylos lightsaber is stable enough to fight against other lighsabers. Sure it might not be as good during a long war but for individual fights against lone jedi it's more than enough. Also even if Jedi aren't used to fight against other jedi, they still train against them and they still have fencing training so why wouldn't they use a weapon better suited to that? Especially as that wouldn't be much of a detriment to blaster deflection or obstacle clearing? Even a crossguard wouldn't really be in the way of that.

[@Warhawk.]

If you need more power and could afford it, you could just add another generator/crystal to the lightsaber and make the handle a bit longer and weightier, as they're physically quite small. One could power the blade and the other could create a t- or V + I-shaped crossguard/snare. It would give you an advantage in 1-vs-1 or 1-vs-many lightsaber dueling, blaster shot deflecting (especially from multiple angles), and longevity, as you'd have double the power and up to double-triple the surface area protected by this design. The added weight might even be preferable for allowing more forceful strikes by the superhuman Jedi/Sith, realistically, and the added handle length could even add a reach/leverage advantage for both offense and defense (especially for superhumans). If you did have access to lightsaber-resistant physical materials, you would practically always want something to prevent opposing lightsabers from simply sliding down the shaft and into your hand or the handle, which would realistically be a huge flaw of the standard lightsaber designs depicted; since lightsaber blades repel/slide on one another. There's little debating that, based on historical precedent, physical mechanics, and known lightsaber mechanics.

[@rolandswift4311]

@@LukasJampen I touched on this in my second point, but I think it's worth expanding on and clarifying based on your interpretation of what I said. The Jedi weren't warriors, they were monks. They did train against each other in lightsaber duels and sparing matches, but it could easily be assumed that the purpose of these wasn't actually to prepare them for combat. They assumed(at least during the time periods worth analyzing between episodes 1 and 6) that almost none of them would ever face a lightsaber wielding opponent in actual combat. The purpose of lightsaber training was more akin to the role kung-fu played throughout Chinese history; a form of physical, mental, and spiritual exercise between long periods of meditation, along with being done out of tradition acknowledgement of the order's past. This also fits with the lightsabers design being similar to the Jian swords which treated the guard more as a way to guard your fingers from slipping up onto your blade than as a way to guard your fingers from the opponent, which was mostly done with more exaggerated movements akin to those we see the Jedi using. They also actively discouraged members from prioritizing both combat training and combat centric modifications to the design of their lightsabers due to them holding pacifist values. The lightsaber was more of a symbolic tool than a practical one.

[@rolandswift4311]

@@Warhawk. long-handled lightsabers were a thing in legends, as were duel crystal sabers. Long-handled lightsabers were considered to have the advantages you listed(more energy cells, more power, more leverage, etc.), but they also came with the added risk of the handle being a much larger and harder to defend target for your opponent were as successful hit could break the circuit and render the whole thing unusable if you couldn't get enough of any of the rare lightsaber proof materials to encase the whole thing. Duel-crystal lightsabers served a different purpose. They were an invention of Jedi Master Kit Fisto that allowed him and other Jedi from aquatic species to use lightsabers underwater without them shorting out by having power oscillate/cycle between the two crystals. This actually became the standard for most Jedi due to it allowing them to be caried and used in environments where they couldn't before. The cross guard lightsabers we do see either predated the duel-crystal design, or are confirmed to only contain a single crystal, which could indicate that the two designs are incompatible. This could actually suggest that cross guard lightsabers are inherently mor limited in when and where they can actually be used. As for the added surface area; I don't actually think Theye'd make that much of a difference against blasters. If you stuck a cross guard on a bat and went down to a batting cage with a dozen pitching machines firing balls at you at random intervals; how many balls do you think you could hit back with the cross guard? As for your point about everyone would do it if they could; would everyone in medieval Europe wear full plate armor and carry a pole arm 24/7 if they could? If it was going to be completely useless to you 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the time (roughly the percentage of non-lightsaber-wielding opponents the VAST majority of jedi would expect to face) would you really consider it to be so necessary that there would be no room for debate as to it being worth the extra rare recourses and effort to add?

[@Warhawk.]

@@rolandswift4311 Your Legends trivia is interesting, and I appreciate it. But it's not canon to mainline Star Wars, and it was contributed to a by a wide range of authors, who likely didn't take into account all factors of realism, physics, etc, and simply wanted to tell a compelling narrative by giving their unique lightsaber variants pros and cons. Thus is doesn't definitely prove how such designs would work in actual canon Star Wars, nor indicate the full range of physical and practical implications of such designs. "As for the added surface area; I don't actually think Theye'd make that much of a difference against blasters. If you stuck a cross guard on a bat and went down to a batting cage with a dozen pitching machines firing balls at you at random intervals; how many balls do you think you could hit back with the cross guard?" This question is loaded and a strawman argumentative fallacy. I'm not a superhuman Jedi/Sith, a lightsaber is not a bat, and lightsabers don't operate based on blunt force. Lightsabers appear to destroy/deflect blaster shots entirely with their plasma energy, and thus even the crossguard/additional blades added by my hypothetical design would be able to disintegrate/deflect the blaster shots in much the same way. Unlike a 'bat with a crossguard' versus baseballs, which due to the kinetic energy of the balls and the blunt force mechanics of the bat, would be completely impractical and useless. Hence why we have zero historical precedents of bats with crossguards, but yet we have many historical examples of swords with crossguards. Use your logic and common sense, my man. A more accurate comparison would be ‘how many more near-massless baseballs being shot at you from different angles do you think you could hit with a wide-but-lightweight stick that has additional half-sticks added onto it in an ergonomic position, versus a lightweight stick with no extra half-sticks added, if you were a superhuman and had Force magic-assisted senses and/or precognition’. In which case I would reply ‘likely many more in the same amount of time, as my stick would have 2-3x the surface area coverage from its additional half-stick additions'. As for your last paragraph, I stated my carefully thought out reasons that my hypothetical design would be an improvement over the standard base lightsaber design in Star Wars canon, for facilitating the variety of functions intended for a lightsaber in Star Wars canon to achieve, whilst being wielded by a superhuman Jedi/Sith. Thus I don't appreciate your ridiculous and egregious strawman argument of comparing my practical suggestion to the highly (and intentionally) impractical suggestion of 'do you think every human in medieval Europe hauling around full plate armor and war weapons (whilst outside of a war scenario) 24/7 is practical or realistic if they had the resources to do so'. Extreme, hyperbolic strawman arguments are logical fallacies of the highest order, and thus have no place in any proper respectful, mature, and logically-sound discussion. Please avoid them going forward.

[@gaberielpendragon]

Did you forget the front flip over a lava field? Having the high ground is an idiom for having the advantage. Thousands of years of war have made it quite clear, high ground is advantageous.

[@lloydhawkins380]

4:28 You know what would be hilarious? If they did a skit where Nate is playing Anakin in his emo padawan phase and Shad is playing Obi-wan. The scene starts with them in a training session with Obi-wan telling him to cool it on the flashy moves and explaining why they would never work and instantly counters them. But that makes Anakin get mad and want to prove that he's onto something here and gets flashier and flashier to the point of it getting ridiculous and Obi-wan's progressively losing his cool and just goes on a tirade about how these would never work so Anakin decides to challenge another Jedi Master and they all work perfectly and the other Master is giving Anakin all this praise and complementing Obi-wan's teaching ability. And Obi-wans getting more and more pissed and the Jedi tells him that all the Jedi do flashy moves to style on their opponents and to stop being such a contrarian.

[@THEBEASTRV]

I cannot believe I have to point this out again. Kenobi was talking about the moral high ground. The line was pivotal and necessary so one of the texts. He just gestures around and everybody misunderstood... In his argument against anakin he had the moral high ground according to him.

[@EatWave]

High ground only confers an advantage when using ranged weapons. That is why snipers tend to strike from towers or nest rather than pits. In hand-to-hand, it just makes it harder to defend one's legs from an opponent who has them at eye level.

[@WhatsTheTakeaway]

Why wouldn't the guy with the high ground attack the low grounder head? It seems strange to just assume the high grounder is just defending. Also, takes much more energy to point a sword up than it does to hat it at rest protecting your legs.

[@EatWave]

@@WhatsTheTakeaway I never said that they would be limited to defense though it does leave an opening that being on an equal level would not. On an even plane, the head is always going to be vulnerable so that would not change too much with elevation differences.

[@WhatsTheTakeaway]

@EatWave OK, but on high ground I don't need to lift the sword as high to strike the head, whereas the low grounder has to lift his sword higher just to strike my legs AND my head is out of range. High ground is superior for attacking and defending.

[@EatWave]

@@WhatsTheTakeaway The other fighter is also not just going to stand still and take it. They can duck slightly to evade rather than having to completely move aside or jump to avoid having part of their anatomy targeted. Still, it is not quite as disadvantageous as being in a similar position in unarmed combat. Kicks are slower and more easily telegraphed than a punch in the best of times but having vulnerable legs is just inviting a grab or tackle.

[@WhatsTheTakeaway]

@EatWave Yeah, it's going to be a battle of attrition (assuming both fighters are equally skilled), and having high ground means less energy used to defend/attack.

[@andrewwashburn6080]

part of having the high ground advantage would be charging forward not stationary fighting. letting momentum increase the speed and strength of attacks. another thing is they are testing with the attacker being basically at the bottom of the hill and the high grounder barely up the hill. i feel like a lot of the advantage in stability the low ground attacker has disappears if the person on the high ground is higher up the hill and refuses to advance to far downwards till, he gets an advantage with momentum.

[@nuclearpopsiclestand3900]

18:00 The time where the low ground hit his opponent's foot while Shad, the high grounder, landed a shot to the head is a perfect example of why the high ground wins. Attacks to extremities are easier to survive from a medical standpoint, but strikes to the head are arguably more lethal.

[@JarieSuicune]

You are arguing "if a death blow is technically more often in range it is automatically a better position" without regard to HOW OFTEN you will be capable of landing that death blow. For you to actually land that hit, you have to leave the rest of your body exposed (funny thing, you probably still want to survive the fight) and they are in a better position to defend the reduced area of their body while attacking the more exposed area of your body. In a single-sword (no armor/shield/other equipment/force powers) mirror match, it seems: High Ground: Greatly reduced mobility, more vulnerabilities (it is harder to guard lower area in addition to upper), target's upper-torso is the only part of the body that can be attacked Low Ground: Good mobility, only their upper body is vulnerable (it is easier to guard less area), better angle to attack lower and mid-body of opponent to deal any damage AND defend their upper body simultaneously. So, in theory an average duel might go: most/all of HG's attacks get blocked, LG severely injurs HG's legs and as HG falls they are killed by LG. Or a battle of attrition with HG taking damage and blood loss much faster than LG. Sure, HG might get a lucky blow. If lucky enough, it's a death blow. But luck isn't what a smart person counts on to win. Or I'm just wrong. I dunno, I'm not a combat enthusiast.

[@nuclearpopsiclestand3900]

@@JarieSuicune I was just thinking survivor's bias might play into the idiom.

[@apmoln1815]

No way

[@enoughothis]

Next you'll be using lightsabers are barbaric weapons that would ignite any poor fool who got hit by them. If it can burn through a reinforced bulkhead on a spaceship, it can light you up like a Roman candle.

[@chaptermasterpedrokantor1623]

Meh, we all know by now you can stick it through a person and they will shrug it off. That is if they were born with a pooniti.

[@christophergillette7167]

I already believed you just from your descriptions back in your Fight Scene Autopsy. Awesome to see it demonstrated

[@Sindre_sollid]

yea, and allso we have to remember that what Anakin tried, was the exact same move ass Obi Wan used on Maul in ep I. When Anakin was a youngling he was totally obsessed with this move, and programmed his training droid to simulate the situation. Therefor Anakin was extreamly confident that he could pull it off. But Obi Wan knew this of course, and he knew exactly what Anakin would try to do; the same thing that he did to Maul. Therefor Obi Wan easily could defend the move and win the fight,

[@ghostface_d3607]

The high ground doesn't matter in a 1v1 melee, sure. But the high ground will always be more advantageous in battle

[@WhatsTheTakeaway]

It definitely matters. The head is a bigger target then feet.

[@thegreatking8495]

He said it’s over as a taunt because he knew what Anakin would do. He told him not to try because Obi-Wan knew exactly what to do to stop him. He set a trap and warned the prey then the prey fell for it because they were to blinded by rage to see the trap. The high ground wasn’t the advantage. The mental stability was. Although shad is still right, in reality with real human limitations high ground simply sucks.

[@kluevo]

Another thing that I've heard pointed out on reddit was that Obi-wan had to master his emotions right before his own big (and successful!) jump. Had Anakin done the same before attempting the move (which would mean Anakin would no longer be controlled by his emotions as a sith), perhaps Anakin could have returned to the light side

[@Herbert_Eder]

It should also make some difference if the high ground you are occupying is a slope, or the top of a hill or a platform offering a good secure footing.

[@jjgourde]

One note I have is stiction and binding.. Light sabers always seem to bind and rarely slide and that is not represented here... it may change things it may not.

[@jjgourde]

That is why a cross guard is not needed in my head cannon ... no slide unless both users put much force into the slide one user can't slide.

[@NerfThisBoardGames]

The high ground gives you an offense advantage, when retreating. The idea isnt a standoff The high ground needs to be literally the top of the hill Successfully feign and aggressively atrack, low ground cant retreat as easily and low sides top is more exposed The person with the high ground being able to pull back easier than the person needing to climb the hill/stairs is where the advantage lies. ITS ALL ABOUT FOOTWORK

[@GruntSquad92]

at least in this video the guys have been showing exactly the opposite. The fighter on high ground has an disadvantage when trying to retreat, because the same foot and leg that supports his entire weight is also the prime target for the attacker on low ground. Either you need to stand on the leg a little longer so you can push your body back in the first place, or you pull your leg away immediately, but then run into balance problems. Furthermore, the energy necessary to move yourself back and up the hill is higher and slows you down, basically making your backwards movement null. The fighter on low ground has an easier defense because all they need to do is protect their head and hands. They can retreat because withdrawing down a hill will speed you up, while the attacker from high ground needs to maintain balance in order not to tumble over when advancing. Furthermore once the attacker from high ground has put their body into motion, they cannot as easily revert, and withdraw, essentially meaning they are throwing themselves on the blade of the low defender.

[@NerfThisBoardGames]

@@GruntSquad92 I agree that's what they showed however the restricted themselves to staying in frame. I'm saying that iirc a charging attacker coming down the hill has the advantage And/that the idea isn't to hold the line from the middle of the hill, you stay near the top in a way to protect your legs and push an exhausted foe who just walked/ran up the hill/ditch. I'm glad they made this, even if there's very little difference from what they did and what mythbusters did

[@NerfThisBoardGames]

@@GruntSquad92 oh also, disclaimer, in this situation the low ground person doesn't have a fear of failure There's a big psychological aspect missing that you might see better on a larp field

[@GruntSquad92]

aaah... okay. different scenario then

[@NerfThisBoardGames]

@@GruntSquad92 yeah I'll have to double check, iirc Obi-wan is near a more leveled off spot of the incline These guys tested fighting in the middle of a hill Mythbusters tested if you're on top and have a 2-3 foot pure vertical height difference. Basically making a giant stair

[@BrandonCroy]

My theory would be that a much, much more aggressive approach might work, like parry->tackle, or running past the down hill person and getting an angle by proxy. Such is very clearly dangerous enough to not really test, both for attacker and defender, but I think would make a large difference.

[@williamdaniel2440]

Watch the movie and see why Obi-Wan's high ground was a huge advantage. Much steeper incline for Anakin to traverse than what Shad tested, a stream of molten lava between them, slippery ash for ground, and Obi was on a flatter portion and defensively planted. The high ground limits your opponents mobility and tires them out making it difficult to attack.

[@jg264]

better in armor, the push/charge. also leg armor and shield (for non light sabers). can tank a blow to the leg if you can wack somebody in the head for it. if you can tackle somebody and end up on top you pretty much win when it comes to daggers in eye holes