Vitamins K1 And K2 Are Associated With Reduced Cardiovascular Disease-Related Hospitalization Risk

[@freegardens4277]

Natto for K2 and broccoli sprouts for K1. Provides many other benefits as well. Dairy and margarine are way out of the question!

[@mozit6]

how u eat that nasty natto?

[@ladagspa2008]

Basically saying eat a lot of leafy greens and cruciferous veggies but dairy in moderation.

[@rhyothemisprinceps1617]

recent article by Wang et al. (2021) 'Vitamin K intake and breast cancer incidence and death ... ' reports dietary vitamin K2 associated with higher incidence and death from bc. Article is paywalled. Could be due to increased risk from dairy consumption; there are studies reporting both increased and decreased risk of bc (and also no association) w/ increasing dairy consumption.

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Thanks Rhyothemis princeps, that's good stuff. here's the paper link, as YT won't delete my comment: pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33277073/

[@rhyothemisprinceps1617]

It is not inconceivable that K2 might have bc promoting effects since it increases bone mineral density so it may share some similar pathways as estrogen - don't have time to see if these pathways are involved in bc. OTOH since most of the K2 is probably coming from cheese (in US this is quite likely), cheese consumption has been found to be associated with bc, and cheese can contain a lot of oxidized cholesterol (27HC) - perhaps the issue is 27HC. It would be interesting to so a study on bc risk and storage and cooking methods of cheese. For example long term frozen storage, freeze drying, and microwaving are reported to increase 27HC - so do women who regularly consume cheese-containing frozen dinners have higher risk than those who eat 'fresh' cheese? Another factor to consider is BPA and PFAS contamination from food wrappers - individually sliced cheeses separated by paper has around 2x PFAS. Seems like old fashioned wax might be better, assuming there aren't petrochemicals in it. NutritionFacts video on 27HC and breast cancer: kzbin.info/www/bejne/oHiYpYBojNyJoKs ~ This topic got had me doing some searching in the literature and I turned up something interesting about a disease I had never heard of - Hereditary Spastic Paraplegia. There's symptom overlap with neurological problems in my family. It can be caused by mutations in CYP7B1 and there is symptom overlap w/ CoQ10 deficiency (my dysautonomia symptoms improve w/ CoQ10). ... learn something new (or a half dozen new things) every day ...

[@ninna1653]

Thank you 🤗

[@DessicatedCadaver]

And what are we to take from this video? As far as I can see, this says nothing about “optimal vit K” intake. All I can see is that the vitamin K numbers here are a proxy for food intake. If vitamin K1 come mostly from leafy greens and generally “healthy” foods, then it is hardly surprising that those who have higher serum levels of K1 are healthier - that is because they eat more healthier food, such as leafy greens, and it says nothing *necessarily* about it being the vitamin K1 specifically being responsible. It’s the “single nutrient” fallacy all over again - we’ve seen over and over and over (and over) again, that health effects come from the entire matrix of the food consumed, and that the moment we isolate a single nutrient and try to claim that this is what’s responsible (in isolation) for the health effects of the whole food, we come a cropper - we’ve seen this for vitamin E, beta carotene, various minerals etc., which when supplemente in isolation either show no positive effect (aside perhaps from cases of frank deficiencies) or are actively harmful. All nutrients interact with each other and you cannot isolate one without having a cascade of consequences which might be quite deleterious. So vitamin K1 - more of it is a proxy for more healthy food intake. Vitamin K2 - particularly mk4 - shows a more u-shaped correlation with health status - why, because again it is a proxy for food intake. Think of where K2 comes from in the diet - especially mk4, as distinct from mk7 which I noticed you did not remark upon. The mk7 form of K2 is healthy food proxy (natto), but mk4 shows probably a u-shaped effect - more of it (in contrast to K1 of more leafy greens!) might be because it is a proxy for eating too much in the way of cheese and high saturated foods, or foods which are high in mk4 generally not being healthy IN EXCESS. An additional wrinkle here is that some of the K2 is made by bacteria in your gut, so that brings in the whole “gut biome - overall health” confounder here. Looks to me this pattern of *more K1, but u-shaped K2 mk4* fits perfectly the possibility that it’s just a proxy for food intake, and it’s the overall food intake (diet) that’s responsible for the health effect, not the vitamin K. You land in the hospital because of your diet, not because of your vitamin K serum status (unless there’s a frank deficiency or some medicatation reaction with blood thinners etc.). This video is again the poster child for the problem with your videos Mike - all these correlations are the result of dynamically entagled variables which it is extremely dodgy to try to attempt to manipulate (as you frequently do with changes to your diet or supplementary regimens), because you simply have no idea how the complex interactions actually pan out. For example, if my hypothesis is correct, that it’s the diet that’s responsible for this effect rather than vitamin K, then for example, trying to reach your “optimal levels” with supplementation, or narrowly focused vitamin K manipulation could be completely ineffective or worse. Reminds me of that old anecdote of how a statistician noticed that there’s a correlation in students of higher knowledge base going together with bigger shoe size - well, of course, a 6 year old will have smaller feet than the 12 year old and the 12 year old smaller than the 18 year old, and the younger students won’t have the knowledge base of the older kids - at which point an perceptive scientist (perhaps Mike Lustgarten - just kidding!) proposed surgically enlarging all student’s feet through surgery so that they’ll all have bigger shoe sizes and therefore presumably a bigger knowledge base. But kidding aside - and I kid because I love - I do appreciate these videos, and there is frequently tremendous value here, but we should always keep in mind that there are tremendous confounders here and that the mere observation of various statistical facts should not necessarily be a prescription for any kind of action to affect our health.

[@terryjackson9395]

Great comment. Well put. As a Ph.D I'm sure Dr. Lustgarten is aware of the problems with linking meta-studies with a particular nutrient. He's just putting the data on record I guess. In this case, yes, High K1 is would be the veggie eaters, whereas high K2 would normally be the high meat and cheese eaters. He also has a video of too high selenium and another one of too high B12 both being linked to ACM. Both of those, of course, are also proxies for high meat consumption. For some reason (perhaps so as not to lose the audience of meat cultists out there ) he avoids making that particular connection. Using cronometer I discovered long ago that, by the time one gets enough polyphenols, anthocyanins, cartenoid from carrots or Yams, 40+g of beta-glucans, inulin and other fibers for SFAs, potassium and minerals from starches, chlorophyll , K1 & sulforaphane from kale/broccoli, low-methionine protein from lentils, CD-38 inhibition from parsley/artichoke, Quercetin from onions, etc... there is simply hardly any room left for meat or dairy in a given day. As far as K2, I eat natto 3/4 times a week which has up to 1000 μg of K2 (MK-7) per serving. I'm sure any bad outcomes of high k-2 don't apply to natto eaters, at least it not reflected in the low Cardio vascular disease & long lifespan of Okinawans and other (pre-western diet) Japanese. "People who drive pickup trucks have more Cardiovascular disease than people who drive Prius. So don't drive a pickup truck".

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Yes, of course, well said, K T. The correlations for my videos are the best that one can do short of using a ML approach. Along the point for single nutrient correlations, note that I shifted to also looking at correlations for whole foods and food groups in my data (i.e. not just apigenin, but the sum of all dietary CD38 intake). But again, as you mentioned, that approach may also be a marker of the foods that they're coming from, not necessarily their isolated nutrients. Either way, there are limitations. Nonetheless, my blood test data shows that I have slowed changes for many biomarkers, including albumin. I wouldn't be able to do that without careful tracking and the correlations. And doing nothing, only hoping that my diet is ideal isn't specific enough for me. Ha, if I don't reach 123y by scienc-ing the sh*t out of aging, then people younger than me will hypothesize where I went wrong, improve upon it, and live longer.

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Yes, thanks Terry, I'm definitely aware, and I definitely try not to get lost in single nutrient, reductionist studies. However, for ex., the AI for K intake is woefully low, at least based on the results from this study and others. At worst, the results from this paper are indeed reductionist, but at best, they may be a guide to include more K1 and K2 in the diet, which may improve health for many.

[@ChillFantasticFive]

This 100% Another study showing eat your greens. Similar to b12 in food being "bad " but b12 supplements being fine. B12 in diet is proxy for meat and dairy consumption. I wish animal fat was healthy because it tastes so good. Not a vegan, but am trying to eat more plant based because of the health studies

[@terryjackson9395]

@@ChillFantasticFive It may not be just the fat. Ironically, it may also be the amino acid profile found in animal-based protein. Search wikipedia for "Methionine" and then scroll down to the section on 'Methionine Restriction' and you can follow some of the studies referenced therein. High methionine may be one reason animal protein consumption is correlated with shorter lifespans, whereas meta studies also show correlation of legume consumption with longer lifespans.

[@michalchik]

That's really interesting. I was expecting K2 to give stronger positive results than K1 and maybe even for high doses of K-1 to cause clotting problems. My best guess is that there's a confounder here of some sort possibly inflammation from dairy consumption or something like that that is making K2 less useful. It would also be interesting to see what the results of focusing on the role of coronary calcification and K1 and K2 is

[@michelangelobuonarroti916]

Good point about the confounder. Graph shows atherosclerosis going up with too much K2, but source is cheese. So, K2 intake increasing with more cheese, but so is saturated fat.

[@tobeina]

Maybe a better study if test subjects didn't consume vitamin k2 almost exclusively from dairy products.

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Most people aren't eating high quantities of liver or natto, which would be the alternative. In contrast, most people eat dairy, which is why most of the K2 intake in that study came from that.

[@thebackbuddy748]

Is there data available showing increased K2 consumption correlating with decreased cd38 production? Thank you for all of this hard work condensed for our consumption. It is greatly appreciated.

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Thanks theback buddy. I haven't seen anything for K2's correlation with CD38-if anyone has, please post it!

[@luckyhanger1326]

Very interesting study. Not sure what to think about k2 as I don't eat dairy....well very rarely. I am currently taking 100 mcg K2 MK7 2x a day and will drop it back to 1xper day. In the future I will try to find 70 mcg. Thanks for sharing this! :)

[@lostalbums5444]

In fact, I think that the problem isnt with the vitamin K2 but with consuming too much cheese or dairy, which will raise the K2 quantity but also the saturated fat etc

[@jamicarpenter8760]

Thank you 🙏

[@olyav5819]

Thanks for the presentation!

[@MrGatward]

Awesome stuff! Being a vegan, I take 100mcg of k2 MK-7 per day, I’ll now look into lowering that a bit - cheers

[@menahempasternak431]

Hi, their sources for vitamin k2 are eggs and cheese, which cause cardio vasculare disease. So as a vegan I wouldn't take this advice.

[@LorddVader]

@@menahempasternak431 I've been eating eggs and cheese forever and I feel great. No heart disease.

[@jben4807]

Lol, eggs and cheese doesn’t cause heart disease.

[@squarz]

@@LorddVader yeah great logic, also my grandfather has smoked all his life and didn't die by lung cancer, so smoking is ok right?

[@birchberry9354]

@@menahempasternak431 why do you think cheese and eggs cause cardiovascular disease, other than the obvious culprit of cholesterol which has been scrutinized in to oblivion recently

[@patricktheut6120]

love to see the actual data and how they tested for the various ks.this flys in the face of present published research

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

The paper link is in the video's description, for more info...

[@debstayblessed9549]

Thanks for very informative study. I keep my consumption of k1 from green leaf veggies at a minimum . It throws my INR too low. I'm sure I get some k1 from other veggies but not a ton of it like I usually did before learning of a blood disorder. I get my k2 from Natto over 100mcg from a small daily amount. When I tested my CAC score 3-4yrs ago it was Zero. Is there any blood test that can be done at home to test for atherosclerosis buildup?

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Not that I know of-that would be a great test!

[@JohnSlack89]

Thanks for the analysis and presentation. I have natto almost every day, in part for its k2 content. I wonder if that is too much or if the fact that it is almost exclusively mk7 would have a different hazard ratio than the primarily mk4 that come from dairy and eggs.

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

I haven't looked into MK4 vs MK7, but will look into it!

[@rfbead321]

I used to eat natto daily also, but now I'm focused on the animal form of K2...MK4. I get MK7 with vitamin D supplement.

[@JohnSlack89]

@@rfbead321 why did you stop?

[@terryjackson9395]

@@rfbead321 At least one study shows Animal-source MK4 does not convert to increased blood K2 at all. Plus there's almost no K2 in animal based foods anyway. Natto has almost 1000 times the K2 as animal sources. Should have stuck with Natto. There are added benefits from the natto probiotics such as increased catalase

[@terryjackson9395]

@@JohnSlack89 He might have read some blog from Chris Kresser or some other meat proponent. I long ago got very tired of those guys ONLY shilling for meat industry at the expense of truth. I stated elsewhere in these comments, so I don't want to be too repetitive.... I don't think this study actually reflects K2 blood level results. There is research (by Toshiro Sato, et al) that shows MK4 from animal food or supplements do not increase K2 in blood at all, so this study may just reflect negative results of eating lots of butter, egg and cheese. You're amazing to have discovered natto, as it's a major 'super food' and MK-7 from natto IS shown to increase K2 in blood. Plus the probiotics in natto are uniquely beneficial and increase the firmicutes/bacteroidetes ratio and also increase catalase which may deter grey hair among other things. I eat small-portion natto 2 or 3 times a week because it has a ton of k2 (up to 1000 times that found in animal products), so a little bit goes a long way.

[@iblisthemage]

good video. K2 supplementation seems to be standard part of a biohacker’s stack these days.

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

*or getting it from food

[@iblisthemage]

@@conqueragingordietrying123 Always better from food, but often harder to do or understand how.

[@gloglos100]

Separately to this video, wondering if you have looked at effects of ingestion of glyophosate. Has many effects clung inhibition f Vit D production, sperm motility and much more. Despite having a water filter and eating organic, this does not protect. Organic lentils have high glyophosate in some countries. Pastured beef and lamb in Aus still run risk of glyophosate spray on pasture as this is permitted by the Ag Dept. Whatever I do diet wise, glyophosate impinges. I take glycine every day, Have you seen anything on removing it from our bodies? Eating only certified organic do not protect. Thank you.

[@klingonxxxxxx]

I take K2 together with D3 as everybody reccomends. But maybe m daily 200ml of kefir yogurth would be enough. How can I know how many K2 is there in kefir ?

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Regardless of how much K is in kefir, I'd propose blood testing to determine the K dose that may be best for you.

[@larsnystrom6698]

@@conqueragingordietrying123 You are assuming K2 stays in the blood, as MK7 does. But MK4 disappears quickly into the cells. Mk7 is slowly converted into MK4 in the body. But the level of MK4 in the blood is still undetectable.

[@MichaelPrice917]

We need to see the effect in combination with vitamin D3: there is a strong synergy there. And margarine is so unhealthy. Take the K and D as supplements.

[@jackbuaer3828]

So all of the K2 in the study came from food sources high in saturated fat, which is linked to heart disease (though that link is debated these days). It could be that the less favorable K2 results were caused by an increase in saturated fat, rather than the increase in K2. If we looked at K2 from plant sources, I wonder what the results would be.

[@iblisthemage]

That is widely believed, but very wrong. Increased intake of saturated fat correlates with longer lifespan and reduced risk of CVD, as concluded by a cochrane study, it is referred in a video by Brad Stanfield from fall 2020. Michael Lustgarten has an excellent video on remnant cholesterol. (The one that you increase by eating carbs…).

[@jackbuaer3828]

@@iblisthemage I think the topic is debated and that there is not a clear answer. That's why I said it was debated in my original post. Notwithstanding the studies you posted, in other studies, there are correlations with greater and lower rates of disease and mortality with high animal and high plant based diets respectively.

[@iblisthemage]

@@jackbuaer3828 well the pro-fat studies are Cochrane, and the anti-fat/pro plant are epidemiologic, meaning highest position in the evidence pyramid vs one of the lowest. There is quite a bit controversy about how the fat hypothesis started, journalists Taubes and Nichols have written some books, that if nothing else, brings in different perspektives. Working 20 years with scientists in biotech has taught me to be pragmatic and constantly open. having ultra-smart people on both sides of a dialogue, only to learn a decade later that an even stronger explanation emerged, meaning that both positions where incomplete, or maybe even faulty, means that we never get to a position of absolute truth, but only potentially workable less untruth 😁😁 When it comes to meat, studies in Sarcopenia demonstrates about double the effect pr g ANIMAL (edit) protein in elderly, who have a harder time absorbing and utilizing the protein, another element in the discussion. It simply becomes very hard to absorb enough protein, to eat enough, in the case of a patient trying to reverse sarcopenia. Lastly is the climate impact. The water-wastage claim includes rainwater falling on the ground related to the cow in any way, which is at best absurd (94% “Green Water”). Cows are CO2 neutral, and are entities that can convert cellulose to very nutrient dense food. We cant do this, and cellulose is the main outcome of plants, also when grown for human consumption. Methane is an issue, but is broken down over tile, meaning we are at a constant level. But we can fix that, both with digestive enzymes, and simply by producing the cow inside, and filtrating for methane. All in all, veganism as a political position is driven by agendas, not by unbiased science. I have no beef with plant based eating, my wife is an MD and a PhD, and she thrives on plants, eggs, dairy, and the like. But when a doctor disregards the actual cardiovascular risks of eating starch, which drives triglycerides, which drives remnant cholesterol, and puts a heart attack patient on a starch based diet, then we are talking peoples lives. My friend had a heart attack a year ago, and is on a plant based diet. He is physically active, but can’t drop weight, because of his insulin resistance. This is hard to watch, and it is driven by paradigms.

[@jackbuaer3828]

@@iblisthemage Hi Iblis. My theory on diet is not anti-fat. While I am a vegetarian, I do not think a vegetarian diet is necessarily the healthiest diet. However, I do believe that there is ample evidence for a mostly plant based whole foods diet being healthy for much of the population. I can cite recent studies from top tier gold standard medical journals that seem to contradict your conclusions. For example, Dietary intake of total, animal, and plant proteins and risk of all cause, cardiovascular, and cancer mortality: systematic review and dose-response meta-analysis of prospective cohort studies, BMJ 2020;370:m2412, finding "Higher intake of total protein was associated with a lower risk of all cause mortality, and intake of plant protein was associated with a lower risk of all cause and cardiovascular disease mortality. Replacement of foods high in animal protein with plant protein sources could be associated with longevity." www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m2412. I can cite additional studies too, as I am sure you can as well. As I mentioned, the topic is highly debated. I don't think your evidence is superior, and neither do many experts. From what I can tell, many scientists also disagree with your conclusions on the climate and agriculture. There are thousands of scientists that have signed on to position papers that call for a reduction in animal consumption. To my knowledge, there are no position papers signed by thousands of scientists that describe the problem as minor or easily fixable (as you appear to describe).

[@iblisthemage]

@@jackbuaer3828 the reason epidemiological studies score quite low in the evidence pyramid is because people are not good at reporting what they actually do, and that it is very hard to seperate factors. People whom are vegetarian tend to not smoke, work out, and seek to lower their stress levels. These factors are huge. People who eat meat tend to overeach, suffer from metabolic syndrome, and not work out. So why are vegetarians living longer than for example the average american, who might not eat cruciferous vegetables, get enough fibre, and get enormeus amounts of sugars and starch? That type of studies cannot say that meat is unhealthy. Fun fact: vegetarianism correlate with mental ilness. My wife, the vegetarian MD, PhD, is a psychiatrist with 25 years of experience, she finds it funny. She has read the studies, but she also very much see it in her daily work. Then you have correlations between biomarkers and cvd and mortality. These types of studies are significantly stronger, they do not demonstrate causation, but they can support a mechanistic interpretation and understanding, which is essential. Then we have double blind clinical trials; these are the ones we tend to put our faith in, especially when they are well made, and we have a handful pointing in the same direction. Then we have meta studies, and the super-meta-studies, Cochrane. A signal can get loston the way up, but if a Cochrane study indicates a correlation, then it is there. A. Cochrane study that does not indicate a correlation does not mean that it is not there, but not certainly enough to make a conclusion in a Cochrane study. I am a big believer in a low carb food with tons of veggies; just not the starchy ones. Growing above ground is a good indicator of how healthy I find it. Meat is extremely nutritious.Plants are not, but they are essential in a healthy diet. The iron-hypothesis, saturated fat hypothesis, and others, have no strong foundation when scrutinized. Metabolic syndrome is most likely driven by insuline resistance, which is driven by intake of net carbs. Most of us are simply not built to eat so much sugar. Starch is a chain of glucose, and is split up into sugar by alfa-amylase when consumed. Starch is very cheap to produce and sell, and we are disposed to eat as much as possible, both of starch and sugars in general. Metabolic syndrome is strongest correlator with cvd, cancer, dementia, and diabetes2. That covers most deaths… I will return later with a couple of videos (or papers if you prefer), but I do not stand a chance unless you accept that you could be wrong. I very much accept that in my above position, I like meat, but I have been a “low meat intake” guy, because of the idea that meat is unhealthy. I am now convinced that meat is very healthy, in combination with fermented dairy, olive oil, and tons of non-starchy vegetables. The cow being co2-neutral in itself is just a fact. Cows do not eat fossile fuels, nor release carbon captured millions of years ago. Cows convert cellulose to best-in-class food for humans, ensuring that we can use waste products in a sustainable way. Transporting food today releases fossile carbon, however I believe we are standing before a sustainable energy revolution, that will all but eliminate fossile fuels in the next 30-50 years (See Tony Seeba), leaving us with a mess of a climate problem to clean up over the next centuries, with all the suffering that entails. If not, we are screwed.

[@larsnystrom6698]

The U-shaped graph for vitamin K2 might be because of the kind of food the Danish gets their K2 from. As the research paper says: "This may reflect a competing increase in ASCVD risk associated with overconsumption of vitamin K2- rich foods (ie, cheese, eggs, butter)." I for one, don't know any mechansm for K2 itself to have this kind of relationship. On the contrary. 70 - 80 ug of K2/MK7 wouldn't be enough to slow down calcification of the arteries. So, my guess it's the Danish diet which is to blame for that. So, eat natto, sauerkraut, and kimchi to get your K2. There's also the limitation with this research that K2 can't do its job without the vitamin K dependent proteins. So K2 without vitamin D and magnesium don't do much.

[@larsnystrom6698]

I suspect there's a strong correlates between K2 intake and bread consumption in Denmark. Perhaps even pizza consumption, as in other countries. And that correlation is cheese consumption. If the researchers didn't mention that, what other stuff did they left out. This must be available in their raw data.

[@slobodandokuzovski373]

Obviously these are extremely low dosages for K2 and this is driving impresion that k2 has low role in arteriosclerosis.If you want to see the effect one guide is calcium breaking point and associated heart palpilations occasionally reported. There is relationship with age, calcium intake in life and presence of K2 in food in life stages in regard when this break occurs.There is clear difference before and after these palpilations in cardiovascular system for better. So what dossage. Young people can get these on 100-200 mcg mk7. Middle age need months to year on 360-400 mcg daily. Some unofficial research on covid lungs calcium rehab was calculating 3000 mcg. From what we know is that k2 is close connected with remodeling of the bone which is 250 g per year or 0.68 mg daily. Another thing is priority where K2 will go to be used is dependent on the signal and used quantity of that signal. This was observed in covid 19 patients with direction for coagulation or direction for gla protein activation. This looks simple on first look but is more complex. K2 was used in pro. atletes in highest doses as 300 000 mcg for peak performance.

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

"this is driving impresion that k2 has low role in arteriosclerosis" K2 was associated with a lower risk of atherosclerosis-related hospitalizations, that info is in the video.

[@rredding]

This is a bit weird.. Is this an epidemic study? I would have preferred an MK-7 or even an MK-4 study with control groups, randomized double blind. The last 2 minutes destroyed all earlier info...😕

[@Earwaxfire909]

I wonder if the choice of margarine might have screwed up the K2 results? And the combinations of K1 and K2 might be difficult to understand. And then there is D3 and the many B vitamins.

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

They adjusted their models for a lot of variables (but not Vitamin D) , so (imo), that's doubtful. For example, besides what I mentioned in the video, they adjusted for energy intake, intakes of fish, red meat, processed food, polyunsaturated fatty acids, monounsaturated fatty acids, saturated fatty acids, and either vitamin K1 or vitamin K2.

[@Earwaxfire909]

@@conqueragingordietrying123 I'm glad that you brought this work to my attention. And yet, there was no mention of margarine in the K1 results, only in the K2 which is needed specifically for calcium absorption. And of course margarine has trans-fats... Sounds like a bad idea to me. If they adjusted for it in both I would still distrust this.

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

@@Earwaxfire909 Do you mean that there was no mention of margarine in the K2 results? It was in the K1 results. No worries, ha, I'm not a fan or margarine, either, it's fake food.

[@PaulBeauchemin]

Guess I’m going to die getting too much k2! There is a large cohort of individuals with high CAC score taking large doses of K vitamins in hopes of reducing such scores

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Note that relatively high levels of K2 intake (~100 mcg/d) were not associated with an increased atherosclerosis-hospitalization risk.

[@larsnystrom6698]

Pretty odd data here! I sincerely doubt getting most K1 from margarine would be healthy. So I would expect a different result. If you want K2 from food, you would eat fermented stuff, such as sauerkraut, kimchi, or natto. Although natto has nattokinase, which would be a confounder.

[@surfreadjumpsleep]

If the food that you eat to get K2 is high in saturated fat, then aren't you going in the wrong direction when it comes to arteriosclerosis? BTW, I was taking a vitamin k supplement from vitacost. Yikes 1400mcg (1300 mk4 and 100 mk7). 1000 mcg K1 though. Maybe just focus on supplementing K1 & not K2? Hmm.. looks like there is research that shows K2 from mk4 is poorly absorbed. Are there studies that measure serum levels of K1 & K2 and correlate to overall survival?

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

The paper suggests that more K2 is not necessarily better (i.e. too much saturated fat), but there's a sweet spot in terms of intake-not too little, but also not too much. The K amounts in the paper are easily obtainable through food, I'd make that the primary focus, but everyone else can choose which approach is best for them. See this video for K1's association with all-cause mortality risk (kzbin.info/www/bejne/sJ-7Xpl7e56Mors). There is some data for K2, but I haven't made a video about it, yet.

[@surfreadjumpsleep]

@@conqueragingordietrying123 Aha. So the negative effect of saturated fats is likely the cause of the rise in overall mortality at higher doses of K2. I have a supplement with K2 & no saturated fat. I wonder if K2 w/o saturated fat is the more the better like K1.

[@shazam1522]

dont you need K for calcium absorption

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

That's not the focus of the video, which is a review of a paper published earlier this month.

[@larsnystrom6698]

No, K2 is not for calcium absorbtion, but for calcium management in the body. Vitamin D increases calcium absorbtion.

[@fredlacroix6865]

why didnt emphasize on impact of K2 mk7 ?

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

They looked at the sum of the K2 isoforms, but the individual ones, I'm just presenting what they found!

[@robertoisripped7455]

Mk4 vs Mk7 video when?

[@davidthompson8208]

I tried natto... could not do that long term... made my stomach turn for 3 hours. I've been using nattokinase paired with D3 and Red yeast & K2mk7. Can you get data from blood work to measure real serum levels?

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Yes, there are measures that reflect K status. i'd go beyond that and measure lots of other stuff, too, to explore the systemic effect for a given K dose, whether through food or supplement.

[@michalchik]

I'm a little surprised to hear that K1 is more protective than K2. I was expecting it to be the other way around. There's either some aspect of the physiology that we don't understand or there's some uncontrolled confounding factor in this study.Either way it indicates that a standard cardiac therapy oh, the use of Coumadin to protect people with heart disease by blocking the clotting power of K1 is a big mistake. You maybe stopping clotting short-term but you're probably Wrecking the person's cardiovascular system. Coumadin is actually a plant poison designed to kill off herbivores. It's possible that it not only causes them to bleed out but at lower doses just has cumulative damage effects on their cardiovascular system. Maybe the lack of blood clotting is interfering with normal cardiovascular healing because blood clots are powerful trophic agents of healing in the body

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

That's not what they reported in the paper/video-they didn't compare K1 vs K2. Also note that both K1 and K2 showed significant inverse associations for reduced atherosclerosis-related hospitalization risk.

[@michalchik]

@@conqueragingordietrying123 I stand corrected. I was under the impression that the magnitude of the positive effects of K1 was greater than the magnitude of the positive effects of K2 as reported in the paper

[@jimroth7927]

MK7 is probably the beneficial form of K2. The increase in mortality associated with larger amounts of K2 might be due to the fact that study participants were getting their K2 from eggs and cheese. Too many eggs and too much cheese might not be good for you. People who eat lots of eggs and cheese probably eat lots of meat too and that again is probably not good for you.

[@mozit6]

how so, concerning eggs, cheese, and meat? opinion of yours ......or scientific data?

[@acousticmotorbike2118]

This has set a cat among the pitches....K1 looks superior based on the data.

[@advertiserfriendlyusername5362]

I guess someone's not a fan of natto!

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

They didn't report natto intake in the paper.