Vittorazi EFI: All my expectations were wrong...Scout Smarter Pilot

[@error.418]

Finally, the opinion I was craving to hear. I still need to get my own hands on one and do my own experiments, but nice to see someone who cares about details giving an in-depth look, especially one who considers aircraft systems and complexity trade-offs.

[@LukasKuhelj]

I really hope that the variomatic prop will work with the EFI in the future, both are such great inventions - would be a shame, if the would not be compatible..

[@Ellwoodsss1]

It’s been challenging to convey to people how revolutionary this engine is. You nailed it dude. Nice job

[@mcgyver512]

👍Great info and perspective! Thank you!

[@CalebJohnsonlivingca]

I will be impressed by EFI too when it's actually proven to be reliable (not just an optimistic feeling from a few flights), the weight comes down, it has it's own alternator, and it's affordable. There are still critical problems to solve before it can be viable for its most valuable use case... long XC.

[@gregorpajnic4739]

then buy it as soon as possible. Nothing you stated wont happen if first batch of units is not selling.

[@patrickmckowen2999]

11:55 ​@@gregorpajnic4739 I thought that is what R&D is for. To put out a tested, proven product. Cheers

[@MADFORIT-m8r]

Already Proven!

[@Robbo1966]

I would love one of these machines, fantastic fuel economy, reassurance on idle and easy start, wow

[@flyingdanwitha29sedan]

Just amazing!! Great video guys!

[@johncpescod]

I wonder why they decided not to have a small generator/alternator to charge the battery as every other efi engine has.

[@CalebJohnsonlivingca]

I'm going to guess it put them over some target weight. You'd need another motor, bracket, and charging circuit in an enclosure. Would prolly add at least 2lb for the juice they need to run that pump. 10lb would just be way too much to add.

[@gregorpajnic4739]

What other efi engine can I buy today for my paramotor?

[@samik83]

@@CalebJohnsonlivingca I doubt it would weight much at all. A small alternator that is put on the same drive belt with the prop. Pretty sure the draw on the system is quite low and wouldn't need much to keep up. The weight of the electronics would be negligible. And remember they are now hauling that big battery that could be changed for a smaller one. Could be that it just complicated the design too much. Still, would have gone with the alternator as now your just adding a limitation that the carb version don't have.

[@CalebJohnsonlivingca]

@@samik83 I've made my own generator for Moster and now Nirvana, each was about 1.5-2lb. prolly you could do it more efficiently, but it's a data point. 🤷‍♂️

[@samik83]

@@CalebJohnsonlivingca Thats awesome! Would love to see some photos / videos how you did that. And why? ;)

[@turkeyphant]

Now if they made an EFI Atom 80 I'd be interested...

[@haukeplambeck]

EFI Atom80 might go below 2l/h fuel consumption at level fligh...

[@turkeyphant]

@@haukeplambeck I would love that but the breakeven on flight-time with the extra weight will probably be close to 2h so probably not worth it for a lot of people.

[@nico_albrecht]

I am looking forward to efi for the atom 80. 🤤

[@purplepenguin43]

for the battery situation i cant help but think you could just add a tiny windmill genorator to charge the battery, or you already have a belt for the Prop, maybe add a little idle wheel/ tensioner wheel to the outside of the belt that drives a tiny genorator. it seems like a very solveable problem. also the EFI should work better with the crappy ethanol laced gasoline we have in the USA. its on my list to save up for paramotor training, hopefully by the time im ready to buy a paramotor this will have proven itself reliable.

[@ParapenteAngola]

6:00: gravem essa resposta. E digo desde já, concordo em ela. A questão é a mesma quando se fala do FlatTop. Muitos aparecem a reclamar por ser antigo, mas lembrem-se, como aqui foi dito: na aviação, o mais importante é a segurança e fiabilidade. Coisas que o flattop me oferece. Faz 10 anos que tenho o meu e apenas troquei de motor. Já me salvou em muitos situações.

[@dogon1013]

in flight charging using an air powered generator should allow you to extend the battery life. I am sure Vitorazzi or someone is working on one. They are used on some full size aircraft.

[@apsestasis]

that would add a lot of drag

[@wildcard9724]

All they have to do is attach a couple of magnets on the flywheel/pulley, attach a stator, with a smaller battery! Done! No rocket science involved!

[@corycardwell]

Thank you Scout for all of your videos. Sure wish they would do the EFI on Factory Rs.

[@MADFORIT-m8r]

Parajet do

[@corycardwell]

@@MADFORIT-m8r that must be new. the last time I talked to them they said they were only going to do the standard motor. I'll look into it thanks

[@MADFORIT-m8r]

@@corycardwell Sorry mate my mistake. I seen the words Pro | R | EFI on the new Mav Max and presumed they did but they're all separate systems. My hands are up, sorry mate.

[@RickMcGovern]

I need one of those!

[@apsestasis]

The battery is what kills it for me. Yes, you save fuel, but you becone limited by the battery instead. You can get most of the same advantages just by using a smartcarb instead

[@goldwingerppg5953]

That was my exact concern too.

[@NicholasStreet]

What’s a smart carb?

[@7royalseven7]

Smart Carb works perfekt ob MX Bikes , good idea

[@apsestasis]

@@NicholasStreet a self adjusting carburettor without jets. They're used in motosports. There's one for thor 202.

[@samik83]

This. I don't see how they couldn't incorporate a small alternator in that thing. I bet the amp draw is really small in that system, so it wouldn't need much and you could use a smaller battery to off set the weight of the alternator.

[@DarioushAryan]

bravoo ... great

[@JukkaJuvankoski]

Finally, this came as a working model. You mentioned at the beginning of the video that the engine's center of gravity is now further back. This, however, is a bad thing. The center of gravity matters to me. Is this really the case? Does some unit take up more space in terms of depth?

[@SCOUTaviation]

Yes, the engine sits 20mm further back. Not a big deal but I am purist when it comes to paramotor geometry. I understand why they did it and I would do the same in their position. The simplicity of the installation outweighs the disadvantage of the added depth.

[@dewolfeFSP]

The Ural Motorcycle went through this change and it reinvigorated the model.

[@MrTL3wis]

They need to use an easy swap battery like you might find in a cordless hand drill. You could take several with you and, with a big enough capacitor, have it hot-swap capable.

[@reinerressel975]

Nice video again, EFI ist definitely a advantage ! But the difference in fuel flow is impossible . Fuel air mixture = full rich ( nearly with choke) is 12,5 /1 ( low EGT or burning temp.) full lean 16/1 high EGT or burning temp.very low power) .

[@CloudflyerPPG]

You’re not taking into account that air density is not the same at all altitudes, or even temperatures. Where carburetors muscle through everything with the same amount of fuel regardless, efi adjusts on the fly to maintain a specific parameter. Now that he is tested it, I have more faith that it’s actually true because he admitted he was wrong. He’s not interested in protecting a narrative that is not true.

[@huffpappy]

I wonder if they couldn't use a charging coil/voltage regulator to charge the battery while the engine is running. I know it's probably a LiPo, but it really shouldn't be that big a deal to do this.

[@pepperjackshack2439]

They need a balancer if so. Can’t get a single cell 12v LiPo so you need a recharge balancer

[@chuckaeronut]

@@pepperjackshack2439 If all you're doing is ignition and sensors and the current draw is small enough, you could use a boost circuit to make 12 V from the single-cell voltage. That would shrink the battery as well. Unfortunately, you'd rule out the e-starter if you need more current than that. I would say that the balancing circuit could be effectively omitted as long as balancing the battery on a typical charger is added to the list of maintenance tasks for every 25-50 hours of use or so. The battery will not go out of balance on one or even ten flights.

[@JK-rv9tp]

Speaking of single point of failure, my biggest concern would be having a redundant channel in the ECU, even if it's only a "limp home" channel like car ECUs. Hardware, you can make robust enough to be reliable by overbuilding or by inspection/test to detect degradation prior to failure. Electronics tend to work until they don't. Also, why they don't just incorporate a small PM Generator on the engine and reduce the size of the battery?

[@Cornpop01]

I always wondered why the sport hasn't come to EFI. What horsepower does the motor put out? I am interested in this system because I live at high altitude and want to fly a MonoTrike with a Fox 13 wing. They say I need at least a 30 horsepower motor to get me off the ground.

[@guyintci]

any word on EFI for factory R?

[@corycardwell]

I emailed parajet and recieved word that there has been zero consideration at this point by vitto to put it on the factory R. I think that is a mistake. I think many people like myself would step up to the new technology if they were also getting the factory R benefits.

[@Mrremusakajack]

All are good with the KTM but they also have the problem with the FIEM electric starter which is usless . Why still they used it ???

[@SkydivingAndPPG]

Does it also solve carb icing in cold and moist conditions?

[@haukeplambeck]

What? When does the carburator ice? What condition must there be? Never heard about this. Curious to learn. Flying in Finland it might be useful to know and avoid. Thank you.

[@SkydivingAndPPG]

@@haukeplambeck kzbin.info/www/bejne/bGbHm5ikg66SftEsi=Yc99xmb3zkKjgjZA

[@wauki1]

No,it does not solve carb icing. EFI have also a throttle valve like conventional carb, which causes carb icing

[@etbenson67]

What about a lightweight portable solar charger 4 the battery?

[@michroz]

Unless you manage to charge in-flight, the solar is useless for unsuported adventure, cause you fly in daylight and would need to charge overnight. I guess, peoople would need to pack small cranking generators with them... ))

[@CalebJohnsonlivingca]

You'd need a big panel to keep up with that fuel pump.

[@limesandstripes]

Can I upgrade my current scout?

[@KaiSyversen]

with a small alternator, it could generate enough power to slowly charge the battery, and also will be self sustained if the battery dies.

[@SCOUTaviation]

Vittorazi has a version of this motor with electric start that recharges the battery during flight. I do not know why they decided not to use the same battery charging system for EFI.

[@KaiSyversen]

@@SCOUTaviation Perhaps that will be the "upgraded" version when they release a new model?

[@sailor-rick]

So assuming I am the same weight as you -- about 200 pounds -- and I also use the EFI and the variomatic prop, what kind of fuel usage per hour might I expect -- at low altitude.

[@SCOUTaviation]

We tried the variomatic with the EFI but the engine did not work. I have sent a prop to Vittorazi and they promised to try to set a new fuel map for this prop. Theory predicts there should be additional fuel efficiency benefits from EFI+Variomatic combo

[@sailor-rick]

@@SCOUTaviation New fuel map for the EFI -- is probably a lot more complex than it sounds... much much more complex.

[@michroz]

With all respect for hard work - how come they don't have an in-flight alternator and charger!? And the "60 seconds" story also sounds like something about the vivid Italian imagination.

[@AndrewGlobus]

Moster EFI is the first engine in aviation history without magnetto, alternator, charging coil. After 7 hours of flying in have to look for an electrical socket and wait 1 hour until you can continue your flight. The Iphone philosophy is now in the paramotor world as well. In cold climates and in winter, the battery life is reduced to 3.5 hours. Over time, the battery degrades and its capacity decreases. For your 6000 euros Now you need to consider all these additional factors when planning your XC flight.

[@tonyslovak8695]

What's wrong to have charger on this set up? I think rotary engine Omega 1 is the future, so far it has been taken by US military....

[@TONYPARAMOTOR]

its like having a ecu module on the paramotor. and back ups.... if murphys law comes around... time will tell.

[@CloudflyerPPG]

Solar cell for the battery. Perhaps in tow like a chase cam.

[@maddogmorgan1]

Put on exhausts that don't crack and I'll be impressed

[@wildcard9724]

Supposedly, the EFI helps with that.

[@chuckaeronut]

My exhaust is 300 hours old and rusty and hasn't shown any sign of failure. I'm of the opinion that they fixed their cracking exhausts with MY20.

[@turkeyphant]

Unless you're huge, you really don't need a 185. What's wrong with just using a Top 80 + Viper XC and getting 2.1 L/h? Reliable, much lighter, much simpler and much better fuel economy. With my 18 L tank I can fly for 7-8 hours.

[@CalebJohnsonlivingca]

- Launching and flying at high altitude. - Launching out of tight LZs. - Launching with camping gear and extra fuel. - Climbing while in mountain sink. - Climbing while accelerated. I have seen and experienced myself that Atom80 doesn't cut it for adventure flying. I learned on top80, but quickly outgrew it when I started adventure XC flying.

[@turkeyphant]

@@CalebJohnsonlivingca I and many others have done that several times with Atom 80 and Top 80.

[@WebberAerialImaging]

Because when you want or need extra power, you can't squeeze More from an 80. All the guys I fly with that switched from their 80 were thrilled and never considered going back. Mileage may vary, of course. Enjoy what you fly.

[@turkeyphant]

@@WebberAerialImaging 140 prop makes enough difference

[@SCOUTaviation]

Then you obviously don’t need the moster EFI. And that’s ok. If I was a lighter pilot I would fly atom 80 for sure. It is a lovely engine.

[@HippocratesGarden]

What kind of battery is it that once it is "dead" (voltage drops to effectively zero) can't be charged back up? Sounds like a lead based battery, LiPo's can go to zero and back up, especially if it has a bms, just wake it back up. Power tools do this all the time. Heck, on my Rodeo, I yanked the Nimh out and got a lithium made for RC cars and it's a huge step up.

[@SCOUTaviation]

Lipo

[@roostnureye]

You do not run your lipos to zero volts and recover them. Sorry bud, that's not how lipos work

[@JohnHansknecht]

"They" invite you to Italy as a future sales rep and make you pay? That's messed up.

[@SCOUTaviation]

I had the same prejudice. The training turned out great, the fee covered the hotel and food and they treated us with utmost care.

[@wildcard9724]

@@SCOUTaviation Well, as long as they took you to dinner first!

[@mrsonor1090]

5 years... so, they invented the wheel again and learned all about it. Yeah, that could take 5 years if you are only a few people working on it. How about getting someone with all the knowledge and do it in 1 or 2 years. But I'll guess now they have a reason to really make us pay for it. Because this isn't gonna be a cheap system. That's why it's gonna take a while to be a revolution in the sport, if ever. The way batteries are developing, that could be a "threat" before this system gets cheap enough for everyone to buy. We don't know what batteries gonna be able to "in the future", solid state and stuff, and when that "future" will be available, and now you also have the EOS 4-stroke, so I think we have to get a better price on that EFI-motor. Just some thoughts for someone that had an really old Solo 210 motor at the early 2000, flying planes in between and now is looking for a new rig to start with the sport again. Been thinking of a Scout with the EOS or maybe an electric conversion. The batteries almost fill my needs now. We'll see, but thanks for your input on the Vittorazi EFI. Always a lot of info. Take care - Many hugs from Sweden.

[@SCOUTaviation]

Things have changed a lot since the times of solo210.... Once you are ready to re-enter the sport feel free to reach out to us to discuss.

[@chrisultrabeatuk]

£1.45 per hour fuel saving, Limited flight times, Too expensive. Well done for trying but it is too soon for the customer

[@SCOUTaviation]

This is not about calculating return on investment. This is about feeling it. - feeling amazed by flying further and discovering the hidden on the other side - feeling relaxed and enjoy the moment fully by trusting the engine - feeling satisfied by getting into the air 99% of the time and not fiddling on the ground. The engine is worth it if you feel that way. Yet I understand the price is steep and many pilots will need to wait until the technology becomes more affordable. I wish it will be soon. And I also understand that there are still riders riding carbureted motorcycles because it is emotional to them. What a beautiful world we live in.

[@stealcian74]

That difference in price buys ALOT of gas.

[@SCOUTaviation]

If you calculate return on investment, you better do not buy this engine.

[@krzysztofbartnik]

And still 2 stroke engine for 6000 € 😂. No battery no fly. Battery life max 5 hrs......High No.

[@Adrenalinspunk]

No real use what so ever yess you save fuel but then gou have a big bulky controller thats a lines catching hazards your limited to batter and if you forget to charge the batter you aint flying not only that the price is shocking. As for the exhaust nonsense it falls down to how the exhaust is pressed and it strained not rolled and welded together. Its all nonsense something the paramotor dont need.

[@JohnUllrey]

Next challenge for you Miro, design and develop a Ram Air Turbine (RAT) for EFI paramotors that will keep the battery topped up. ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ram_air_turbine )