Vo2max vs Running Economy?! Stop Jogging and Start Sprinting! TTT EP56 by Coach Sage Canaday

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Higher Running Coach talks about running economy and vo2max run training workouts in terms of efficiency and running form for proper technique. this is great for marathon training, ultra marathons, running a faster 5k. follow along for more running speed and tempo run track or road workouts. #runningcoach #runningtips #marathontraining

[@shangrila73eldorado]

This man confirms a lot of my thoughts...with science. Thank you. As a runner who had some success, I know speed training is what makes you a better racer

[@andershekkli6587]

I tested my vo2max in the lab when i was 17, ended up on around 82 (81, 81, 83.5 peak). Now i am 19, and my vo2max has probably dropped to the 70’s because i stopped xc-skiing, and focused on running only. However i run faster now because my running economy has increased a lot! Everything you say here is true, and i love your videos Sage. Keep it up.

[@blakenixon788]

Over the years, love to hear the phrase "...with another training talk!" Great advice regarding specific ideas to mix in Vo2max work safely without causing injury. Looking forward to trying these out.

[@fleetze]

As someone who can put on a podcast during an easy run and look down and see 11:30 miles, this channel has the kind of balanced approach that I need to hear. There's so much content out there that dwells on run slow to run fast but I never really had a problem of going too fast on easy runs so it wasn't very helpful for me.

[@the.trollgubbe2642]

I was a runner for 30 years, stopped during Covid, gained weight. Now I have started again. It's quite humbling, now I am jog/walking,

[@saigonKT]

Wow. Nice to hear u coming back. Should be thrilled.

[@lisinbondi1240]

thanks for this - as an older runner I appreciate understanding the reasons and benefits for this type of training. I will build this back in for my 2023 race training which started again recently and get my VO2Max back up where it was, now I know how to get there efficiently. Any topics for older runners would be appreciated

[@theparalexview785]

Interesting coincidence that KZbin recommended your channel right about the time I was ready to spice up my training with workouts other than just slogging along slowly to build up a base. From years of cycling (taking a break due to neck pain from injuries), I had a hunch it would help to mix in some intervals, speed play and all-out efforts once a week or so (at 65 that's about all I can manage and allow ample recovery time). The main issue I find with the almost robotic insistence on jogging (regardless of the fancy variations like MAF) is that it never teaches the legs to do anything else. It's not like cycling, where we have the same range of motion and ergonomics regardless of power output (other than standing to stomp the pedals for climbs). After more than a year of mostly jogging, by any name, I realized my legs didn't know how to cope with full strides, kicks, etc. I had to run that way for at least short distances/durations at a time in order to build a base for running faster. It's coming along gradually, but after getting my first plated shoe, nearly three years after resuming jogging, I found the Saucony Endorphin Pro and Speed design encouraged my legs to stretch out, so to speak, and actually run rather than just jog. I was surprised to feel that much difference in a shoe, after three years with various Adidas, Under Armour, Nike and Atreyu shoes, all basically versions of conventional daily trainers. I'm nowhere near strong enough yet to put the Saucony SpeedRoll shoes to proper use over distance, but at least my legs are getting a sense of what it will take to break out of that slog-jog routine.

[@evophage]

I’ve found hill sprints to work pretty well for me for vo2max/high intensity work while being easier to fit in than heading to a track.

[@Vo2maxProductions]

yes hills can certainly be a great way to get in the intensity and strength.....and also build muscle strength for flat speed (and also great/key for trail-ultras too)

[@joefaifer]

Envious of not having hills nearby here. Treadmill hill workouts for me!

[@evophage]

@@joefaifer foiled by geography! Meanwhile I have trouble finding flat sections that are long enough for mile repeats 😆

[@logiconabstractions6596]

I've added sessions of hill repeats in my prep for a 113k last summer. Really liked it, I do feel it made me a stronger runner for that kind of efforts.

[@gokiwi2642]

Thanks Sage Excellent training talk, keep up the good work have a awesome 2023

[@runningwithdr.andrewdpt9177]

Great training talk Sage!! That was very detailed and I enjoyed the science behind it. I have not considered VO2 max training into my workouts. I will have to do that. Happy Holidays to you and Coach Sandy!!

[@markbruaski1231]

thank you. this help me understand the times differences between tempo and the vo2 stuff. thanks again.

[@bartb217]

Good running economy can make a huge difference. In my runninggroup I have (far more talented/higher VO2max) runners that can beat me by a minute on 5k track and 10k road races, that I can beat at cross country at around the same distance.

[@thepsychologist8159]

Interesting you've said this about running on a track. I've found the same thing with runners who are so good at track/road running, but not so good out in the field. Personally, it's why I avoid training/running on tracks/roads opting to run on cross-country courses which are hugely beneficial for foot and muscle adaptation. It's why runners who only do tracks/roads usually struggle on other courses because they don't have that adaptation and their feet/legs get fatigued.

[@logiconabstractions6596]

I ran my 2nd 100k this summer. I kept as part of my training 1 day of interval training (lots of Vo2max types) per week, with my local running club. Mostly just because I like running with the club and wanted to keep that somehow, even if 3 or 4 minutes repeats have little to do with ultra running. It's just a N=1 sample, but I feel like what you said about muscle/structure strength developped with those trainings is true. Even at the end, I was feeling rather strong. The limiting factor didn't seem to me to be muscle strength, loosing form/structure as it went on. Recovery was also pretty good - I held onto a few nibbles during the first week, and then it felt pretty normal. I held back a little for those intervals some week, to kept overall training load/stress in line with what I needed/was supposed to do that week. E.g. not much point of doing vo2max training if you cut back on your long run for it. I felt like it helped mentally too in some ways - the ultra is much longer, but at no point in an ultra do you get the intensity of, say, the last minute of a 5 minutes repeat. In some ways it made the lows of the ultra feel more bearable.

[@jaysingh05]

Thank you!

[@roadrunner872]

Thanks Sage, I know you will be in SA in the new year,have you ever considered running the Cape Town marathon

[@jeroensimons390]

This must be my lucky day. Sprinting happens to be one of my specialties.

[@donavonpaschall2774]

I live in salida and love your content. I’ve been running 2x/wk and mtn biking 2x/wk at low hr/intensity for last 2 years to build aerobic base. The hope was to increase pace at low heart rate (MAF model). I don’t feel like I’ve seen any Improvment. What is minimum effective does of easy running to build aerobic base? Starting to wonder if my mtn bike days really aren’t a beneficial substitute for running.

[@stefanoviviani6064]

Hi Sage, thank you very much for these weekly TTT, I love them. Question: I'm an ultratrail runner (not even close to elite level and 46yo) running 130/150km/week with a long run and 2 quality session (they used to be one LT and one VO2max). Recently I decided to stop VO2max (too stressful and not specific for ultras, maybe only close to a race) in favor of 2 LT sessions per week and work on speed exclusively through at least 2 strides sessions/week after recovery runs. Do you think it makes sense or in your experience it's not ideal?

[@murshizimahadzir8459]

Great i really need more advice

[@DrProfX]

Hi Sage, Joint health seems to be the limiting factor, especially for older athletes, in running, so I was wondering if you agree with the idea of reducing overall mileage as we age and substituting some runs with cross training? (Bike or swim)

[@emtydoctrine]

As I turn closer to 50, speed workouts can increase injuries for our aging bodies unfortunately. So my speedier type of workouts these days, I had to drastically lower that pace, to avoid injuries. It sucks, but it is the reality I have to face.

[@thepsychologist8159]

I'm in my early 50's. What I do now is incline strides. I hate doing 'flat' speedwork and I actually sustained an injury doing these as my legs were turning over too quickly. Last year I bought myself a commercial treadmill and I can confidently say that it's one of the best investments I've ever made. I do most of my easy-pace runs on the treadmill and one thing I've incorporated into my training over the past year is an incline strides session after an easy-pace run (usually 6-8 200m incline strides at 4 degrees). I've now even incorporated these after a progressive run as well. Since doing these, I've noticed a massive improvement when I run my outdoor circuit, especially on inclines and hills. In addition, I've also incorporated squats and side leg raises every day and I seriously can't believe how much faster I am since starting these. I used to avoid doing them because they're so hard (amazing just how anaerobic these can be), but since seeing the improvements I just remind myself how much quicker I've become since doing them. The other day I surprised myself and did 90 squats in one go. My legs were shaking at the end, but a few days later when I went for a run, it felt like I had rockets in my legs.

[@ThePaulaon1]

Same. I am 49 next year and this past 2 years has been a massive learning curve for me in regards to how my body is now responding to higher intensity workouts as I now approach 50 and beyond. I'll take slowing down any day of the week if it means I can keep running injury free for longer.

[@markphilpottultra]

I am 58 years old and started running 5 months ago. I do speedwork twice per week and have been increasing the speed over those months. No injuries and the body loves it aka ( performance improvement). I think its like most things in life, we are all different, and our body adapt, react differently to every situation. Age should never be a barrier.

[@thepsychologist8159]

​@@markphilpottultra For sure, everyone is different. I do a specific speedwork session at the beginning of each week (though always on an incline) and I always do incline strides after every easy-pace run and progressive run. As they say, running up-hill is like sprinting in disguise, plus you're effectively doing strength work as well and you reduce your risk of injury.

[@MrPacobolo]

Similar to your speed metaphor, in climbing we say if you do not have the power there is nothing to endure!

[@koboikoboikoboi]

about the sprinting or stride, do i try to push off harder or increasing my turn over would be enough?

[@Maffrew84]

TT Question: What are your go to mental preparation skills to ensure you arrive at a race primed and ready to go? I have a race at the weekend and while I know I have done the work, had a great training block, am fit and don't feel consciously nervous, my anxiety masks any rest benefits I should get from taper and I feel heavy, unfit, slow and generally crappy. This has become my pattern pre-race and I talk myself into confidence because I KNOW i've done the work but it is unsettling not to feel it.

[@bartb217]

Sleep earlier and longer 2 and 3 days before (the night before is usually very bad which make you feel all the things you mentioned), doing a shakeout run (4k Z1 and 6 100m sprints at 90%/race pace), test and prepare all the running kit (a lot lighter than my training kit) the day before, eating pasta the evening before, strawberry jelly sandwich in the morning and drink lots of water the days before, the last hard session (mostly 5 days before race) will be "long" intervals at desired race pace for convidence, listening to music I know gets me pumped in the car when I drive to the race.

[@Maffrew84]

@@bartb217 maybe I should have been more clear but I mean long term mental training / skills. The stuff you mention is all good and things I do pre race, but I’m looking at mental preparation alongside physical prep so that ideally when I get to this 2-3 week period before a race, the mind if prepared well enough that ideally this unwanted anxiety doesn’t mask my fitness.

[@fabianrares]

I cannot get into anaerobic on treadmill. I do sprints 30-50 sec but I keep getting the low anaerobic.. anaerobic shortage. Very frustrating while low and aerobic levels are pot on

[@cpruns4501]

TT Question - What are your thoughts on extended rest periods? I just finished a pretty awesome year (2 Ultras, 1 marathon, and plenty of day runs in the mountains) and by the end of the season My body was starting to feel it. I took a couple weeks off and then jumped into weight training and treadmill work (lots of snow up here) and am already full speed into training for next season. At some point should I give myself a month off running or greatly reduce my mileage for a month or 2 weeks? Stick to the bike or just take a full month off altogether? The last thing I want is to keep going guns blazing and end up injured come May or June when the fun is about to begin. Thanks Sage and awesome video as always.

[@414peps]

Thanks for the advice Sage! What are your plans in the near future? I see pretty moderate (for you at least 😊) milage on strava and I’m curious. A big reset over the winter season? Hope you’re doing well!

[@tazeev]

Thank you for all the great information over the years. I am getting back into marathon training after stepping in to a pothole after dark. I am building my aerobic base now. How much mileage can I increase on a weekly basis, safely? I do not want to get re-injured. But I would to get ready for race day. 13:24

[@joefaifer]

I have followed the 5-10% rule and it has worked wonders for staying injury free. Or at least never increasing your weekly mileage more than 10% of last week. and every 4-5 weeks or so do a de-load week where you drop mileage just a bit, or drop intensity without dropping mileage. Same thing as hitting the weights.

[@tazeev]

@@joefaifer Thank you. I will implement this weekend.

[@chickenzlokal]

Do a video on running performance using vegan vs carnivore diet !

[@joelmullen4819]

Great… now I am hungry for some cake…. with a heavy layer of icing… 🎂

[@nealwailing3870]

I'm a Trabant!

[@juliuslunsford6870]

What is a marathon stimulator run?

[@collinatkinson6329]

Since this style of workout is so challenging to the system, do you know what the minimum effective dose of VO2 max type training is? Are there periods of time where it should be implemented and avoided in a plan?

[@Vo2maxProductions]

great question! Yes it should be limited and used sparingly for most runners. Workouts hitting over 90% max HR for a good 1-2 or 3-min at a time can influence Vo2max in the traditional sense.....and only like 1-2 times every 10 days or so at peak training phases. They should be avoided early on in aerobic base building (just starting a Training Plan and when building weekly mileage very quickly). Also in the last week before a race (taper phase).

[@noosphericaltarzan]

I have been ignoring VO2Max for awhile. Focusing on a really, really long period of aerobic base training coupled with sprints, accelerations, and strides. VO2Max goes up about 1 mL/kg/min per 4-6 weeks on its own. I don't think it's possible for me to get it so high it actually interferes with my running economy, but I am not sure it's worth training intervals specifically to improve VO2Max when gas exchange is the bottleneck and you get that covered with base training, and you get the neuromuscular efficiency improved with speed training, and then metabolic efficiency covered during threshold training. Maybe I am missing something here. I dunno. I just don't think it's as important as so many people do.

[@enriquesundiang3558]

I would like to know why your not a fan of MAF workout?

[@somesshbahuguna9620]

Hi Sage, What is good Rest Heart Rate for a average level runner (PB 5K 23mins, 10K 54mins, HM 1:49) mid-40s runner? Thanks.

[@Vo2maxProductions]

Too hard say an exact number for you as Heart rate as a highly genetic and individual component to it. You can track yours and compare relative numbers for yourself though....usually as you gain fitness it should drop on average in the morning...although HR can be influenced by many things (Stress level, sleep quality, diet etc)

[@markphilpottultra]

you are NOT average with those times.

[@robciervo]

Important Point! Even EASY miles NEED to be based off of recent mile shape. Otherwise they may turn into junk miles. One is doing nothing from a real training perspective slogging out 10 miles at 10:00 pace if they area 6:00 miler for instance. For that mile effort even "EASY" runs should be between 8:15-9:15 pace and NOT slower. VO2 max will lower mile time and that will lower training times which will then improve running performance all the way up to the marathon.

[@markphilpottultra]

Suggested topic........Recovering from Covid........The journey back to full training after severe covid........Thank you

[@joefaifer]

This happened to me last year. I thought I was "recovered" after two weeks, but it took more like a month. Keep your vitamin intake up and eat healthy.

[@vividchilling2492]

....................

[@emmanuelyogotobau1603]

❤

[@jansmith8909]

Really enjoy these as too many online “run coaches” dismiss this form of training unless it’s for middle distance (from my experience). And a general misunderstanding of the link with increased injury risk relative to poor running economy and/or mechanics. As a coach I too use the car analogy so many similarities between the car and body 🤙🏼🤙🏼🏃🏼🏃🏼👍👍

[@hannesaltenfelder4302]

Why not all-outs? Wouldn't that activate more muscles?

[@Vo2maxProductions]

yes it would, but for a lot of long distance runners the "pure speed" can be an injury risk if they pull a muscle or aren't used to actual sprint training

[@joefaifer]

I avoid them all together, basically for reasons Sage mentioned

[@JasonMyers14]

How you doing now Sage? I believe last time I visited this channel you had justness got the jab and had some issues post jab...everything back to Normal now?

[@mikea6710]

As the Kenyans say, 'opening' up the legs

[@mjl1987]

First view?

[@dbo4506]

🏅

[@dbo4506]

👏

[@dbo4506]

🙄

[@calvina8841]

🎉

[@Yellow_Afryca]

I look like a Bugatti however perform like a Yugo

[@okantichrist]

Can we compare ourselves to motorbikes rather than cars ?🤣👍🏻

[@RaoBlackWellizedArman]

I'm actually a fans of this channel and I would say I've watched most of your training talks. BUT!!! I'm afraid I'd have to say your talks are all over the place and It's always been like that. It is really really REALLY hard to keep track of what you're talking about and you throw in these numbers, 400 repeats mile repeats kilometer repeats without having a plan. You have a very few good videos with a begining and an end like the 5 pace theory. But the rest is sooo messy. I'm sorry I'm breaking it down to you but it seems you're very knowledgeable but at the same time equally incapable of delivering your knowledge and I always feel disappointed after watching your videos. And btw, I'm not illiterate as far as running goes. I have watched tons of KZbin videos on running and have been reading books like Pfitzinger's book.

[@Vo2maxProductions]

sorry to hear you "always feel disappointed after watching". I agree that these talks can be organized a bit better (I literally do these in one take). My mind tends to wander pretty fast when I talk. However, if you want a concrete plan or some more "organized" info you can check out one of our Training Plans, our eBook, and/or some of my KZbin "shorts" videos which are more straightforward and to the point. These "Training talk episodes" are generally more long form and almost podcast style.....so I do realize that they can get pretty advanced and I can jump around pretty quickly and ramble with a lot of information in 10-min + videos. My view is that I try to get in as much context and detail as possible

[@rych7852]

I tend to agree. And I'm no hater, I recently bought one of your "all in" training plans so I trust in your knowledge. Its just that the videos aren't putting your best foot forward. That car analogy was hard going. Maybe try breaking down the videos into 3 or 4 sections. With a divider page between each section. And it might be worth scripting it a little just to keep it tight and concise. I don't want you to end up filming yourself making a coffee wearing a headtorch or driving miles away to do weird stuff. But perhaps take a look at other content creators for some pointers. Other than that, I appreciate the info you are putting out. A few tweaks will make the world of difference

[@RaoBlackWellizedArman]

@@Vo2maxProductions "Always disappointed" is a bit of an exaggeration. Yes, they do seem to be done in just one take. And I'm not a hater. Good luck with your channel and with your career.

[@joefaifer]

Adding different types of speed sessions is going to help with every distance in my experience... Well, TBD on the ultra side 😅