Vocalist Disagrees With Bernstein's Tempo

[@nicholasfox966]

Before we all leap to melodramatic conclusions (too late for that, I guess), Christa Ludwig **adored** Leonard Bernstein, and said so in many interviews, including one in which she stated that no other conductor freed her up musically more than Bernstein. She continued to perform and record with him frequently after this, all the way up until his death. These things happen. You're witnessing a conflict between two great artists. I agree that Bernstein happens to be incorrect in this instance--he's pushing the orchestra too hard too soon, and they're also overreacting and themselves pushing so hard that it becomes out of control. But just because they're disagreeing doesn't mean they hate each other, or that she lost respect for him suddenly, or that he was not a great artist--"always being correct" is not the definition of a great artist. No one is free of misjudgments or errors, including the greatest artists. Colleagues have conflicts sometimes, and we're talking about two extraordinarily strong personalities here. And again, "The audience can't understand the words anyways" is not a broader statement that Bernstein is making. He's not saying, "A singer's text is not important." He's trying to assuage a frustrated colleague; i.e., "The music is so fast and Mahler has set it in such a way that absolute clarity in the moment is nearly impossible anyways." Musical artists say things of this sort all the time in the pressure cooker of a rehearsal. This is normal. It's fascinating and interesting, but it's not as dramatic as we would like to believe.

[@jennhoff03]

Well said! People nowadays seem to think that you have to end relationships over 1 disagreement, but that isn't the case. Conflict is inevitable, but resolution and mutual respect is totally possible.

[@Espedals]

This nuanced comment deserves thousands of likes.

[@mitchjohnson4714]

Criminally underrated comment.

[@cailin5301]

Thanks, this randomly showed up in my recommended and I was wondering what was really going on because I had no idea 😅

[@justanothernguyen2334]

@@jennhoff03 because its mostly teenagers on the internet these days

[@Kyle-ur4mr]

What I love the most is that they argue bilingually because they both speak German and English

[@1pureboy1]

I’ve heard Pappano flip between 4 languages, all fluent, during stage orchestra rehearsals at the ROH.

[@soutteruk1]

Big deal!

[@soutteruk1]

@Hugh Rees-Beaumont I have made no clear insinuation about language. I made a silly remark and now regrettably have to tolerate your tiresome and humourless comments.

[@apneiaproductions696]

@Hugh Rees-Beaumont sans commentaire.

[@johnonahotroyin7394]

@@1pureboy1 true this.

[@ArchieCaine]

“It doesn’t matter nobody can hear the words anyway” oooooof

[@edgoodstuff6133]

Ms. Christa Ludwig. It means much more than "diva".

[@vendingdudes]

"just try singing it an octave higher then". Lolol nope

[@signekroner4588]

"Its always impossible" urgh...

[@TheHF21]

I thought he was thinking that the public won't even notice unless they are themselves musicians. And if they are musicians they know how stupidly fast that part is supposed to be.

[@RaineStudio]

If nobody can hear the words, it is the maestro's fault.

[@undercrackers56]

She is a professional who is accustomed to delivering her very best performance. I appreciate her frustration at being prevented from doing so.

[@morbidmanmusic]

So is he, and it's is subjective, and I'd argue he is more correct for the words meaning here.

[@jackkenefick2696]

So are the rest of them.

[@BetterMe981]

That’s a ridiculous statement. Every one of us professionals are accustomed to delivering our very best performance, every time we perform. To suggest that Leonard Bernstein is trying to prevent her from performing well is ludicrous. All that says is you don’t know who he is. You clearly don’t know who she is either, or even how any of this works.

[@tiagobrandao6588]

@@BetterMe981 Maybe not on purpose but she's struggling like hell and he doesn't care. He's too stubborn and and big asshole

[@vicsar]

@@BetterMe981 Dude, everyone know who this guy is, you think we are fools? You think we never read the estoopeed books about the bears? Be serious!

[@ralphmarshall1000]

Conductors always rush Mahler, they don’t want to pay the orchestra overtime.

[@khyron2010]

woa

[@Lopfff]

Good one

[@JonatasMonte]

Don't worry, the slow movement will more than please the syndicate.

[@chocolatesouljah]

Hilarious!!!

[@TimothyJonSarris]

It may sound like a joke, but Levine always managed to finish Die Meistersinger just before midnight... otherwise we chorusters WOULD have gotten overtime pay.

[@gigimitchell-velasco4346]

This is a notoriously difficult place- and this movement in particular is ungratifyingly written - this place in particular is hard to enunciate (as she says to him in German) but also needing a place to breathe amidst trying to be heard in such a low range ... Yes Bernstein and Christa were great friends.... he adored her and she was probably one of the few, if any, that could ‘request’ or talk to him in that way in a rehearsal...(Carreras in West Side comes to mind...lol not pretty!) I studied many years with her and she was like a mother to me - she adored Bernstein and spoke of him often in a very special way)... it was a truly close relationship...he got her to sing things in such a way that I never heard her do. He got her to take chances outside the box... she trusted him like no other I believe.... There is a recording of her singing Urlicht with the other Wunderhorn songs that is stunningly vulnerable by any measure- only Bernstein could have gotten her there- so, this was yes- a heated debate among two artists who revered each other.... I also agree the poster of this is short sighted in calling her “an alto”- Inarguably she was one of the greatest singers in her realm...on the opera stage, concert stage or recital platform...

[@johnwalzer9187]

As you say, hard to enunciate. At this kind of super-heated tempo you can do that sort of thing in Italian - the Act I finale of Rossini's "Barber," for instance. But German is a much more deliberate language with all the "ts" and umlaut sounds and the guttural "ch" all over the place.

[@judithwalker9694]

Beautiful comment, thank you. You were blessed to work with her! I heard her live in NYC in the days when audiences knew their great lieder singers and would welcome them with immense, loving applause and rapt attention.

[@kennethwayne6857]

Fascinating to read. I absolutely adore their recording of 'Rosenkavalier', she was a marvelous Marschallin. I was so privileged to hear her onstage in three operas of the 'Ring' in NY in the late '80's. I met her afterwards and she is the most lovely, gracious person. Good health to her!

[@DomskiPlays]

Yeah I don't know why the poster doesn't add her name in the title

[@happypuppy-i4k]

Yo, what up? From the outs!!!! Color the can to the vase a shade different!!!! Canvase. Ese!! Tempo, yo! Ry. Th. Mmmm???? Get me. Mmmmmmm??? Yo. Learn to drunk.

[@empatheticgrinch]

Musicians disagreeing with Lenny Bernstein is my favourite horror sub-genre.

[@mirabellemiller318]

🤣

[@briananderson8428]

HaHa. Wow. Great reply!!

[@chopin65]

Me too. I said to myself: "Did she just...Wow!"

[@sorellman]

Yeah, for what do musicians think they are? Musicians? What do they know about music? By the way, she was right. He was very fast.

[@gspaulsson]

soloists always have the last word.

[@scazzasofija]

This is a normal and natural rehearsal process. She’s a legend as well, and she’s talking about the ability of her breath and legato to keep up. You hear more of the colors of her voice in the slower tempo. Lenny wasn’t known for his work with singers.

[@stephenwu1524]

Lenny was fine with singers, his specialty is Mahler and half of Mahler has vocals Also there’s a time and place for colors in the voice, you can’t possibly argue that all vocal music should be slower for that. Bernstein took it at a completely standard tempo. Christa Ludwig struggled because she historically had trouble with this section specifically

[@j_m_b_1914]

Yeah, this is just two people who are immensely talented trying to get past a very difficult part for both of them. One wants to go east and the other west so they agree on North and just move on.

[@0miyage]

Are you refering to West Side Story ? 🤔😂

[@oliverkubiak6310]

We all know Lenny was a genious conductor but in fact with singers he wasn't the most reliable conductor. E. Moser for instance also complained that Bernstein would often change tempo in his favour in a performance.

[@buddlight3nc]

Not true. Leonard Bernstein was known for his work with singers. Where did you get such an idea. His collaboration at the piano with many singers is breath taking.

[@hiyadroogs]

The problem for Christa, is that she isn't being given the time to literally breathe between phrases.

[@augjake]

she really pulls thru on the "hie!" which is written in for her to breath

[@armandogaxiola9652]

But the piece is supposed to give a sense of breathlessness. It should sound like that

[@hiyadroogs]

@@armandogaxiola9652 But equally, it defeats the entire point of the piece if the singer cannot draw breath quickly enough to support her voice nor complete the phrase. You may as well hire a non singer to gabble the piece instead

[@armandogaxiola9652]

@@hiyadroogs it’s not like the dichotomy you are describing. The breathless quality of that passage is important to convey a contrast to the earlier and later, profoundly lyrical, passages. It also mimicks what the poem is saying. Of course it is important that the singer is able to breath, but you shouldn’t expect this particular piece to sound like a comfortable aria or Lied

[@thebighurt3172]

She’s big enough physically to take one huge inhale and sing the entire phrase without taking another breath. I mean, cmon already!

[@owlcu]

She's suppressing her anger because she's right and she knows it, but he's the boss so she has to pretend otherwise. I guarantee she went home and screamed into a bottle of schnapps.

[@noelpucarua2843]

And then she schnapped at the dog and schnapped at the cat and when he came home she schnapped at her husband. And all the while Bernstein was having a cold porter.

[@V25021]

@@noelpucarua2843 lol yeah, other people have to deal with their bad opinions why should they care?

[@coffeeseven]

Relatable

[@jimparfitt2330]

EXACTLY!!!

[@railgap]

@@mevsimengin2382 could you maybe write that again in your native tongue so I can just run it through Google translate, please? Because I am a native English speaker and I have no idea what the fuck you just said.

[@dscott6629]

I came here to see a singer dare to argue with Bernstein over his interpretation and, immediately upon watching it, said to myself, "Damn, that's much, much too fast. She can't even breathe." And she has such a lovely voice too!

[@jimpigato2149]

Same here.

[@louskunt9798]

Yep

[@gabrieleruffini4884]

She's the best german mezzo of last century and a very fine musician. I suppose that if she's not able to sing that tempo nobody else could do it. In a similar circumstance she politely said to Von Karajan "I am not able to sing as you are asking me but you are free to call a better singer if you like" Karajan smiled and changed the tempo....

[@evancappe]

Same thought. Bernstein was a legend - but too fast for Christa Ludwig is too fast.

[@bille77]

Such a diva...

[@user-gg3ht5sm3v]

clicked on this thinking, one does not simply _disagree with Bernstein_ and found myself doing exactly that

[@jean-lucasymptotic5083]

2 bars in before ht vocals, "thats too fast." Before i even knew who was on which side.

[@golden-63]

Being Christa Ludwig, she could get away with it.

[@gavinwigg8057]

He was rushing the orchestra on purpose. The counting accelerated as she sang. He was wrong.

[@cowboycurtis2229]

"It doesn't matter, no one can hear you anyway" **cries in viola**

[@MalloryNewcomb]

Having played the viola for several years.... Mooooood

[@file1355]

; - ; saem...

[@suezuccati304]

As Celibidache would say... VIOLA... VIOLAAA... VIOOOOLAAAA...

[@IvanIvanov-vy7pt]

Why then have anyone sing/play it???

[@jpbaugh]

LoL this is the best reply in this entire comment section.

[@christiaandemarezoyens4720]

Later they smoked a joint and blamed it all on Mahler.

[@impCaesarAvg]

And they were right.

[@daytk4203]

top tier comment

[@robkunkel8833]

Smoke a joint and blame Mahler. A pretty good way to tackle musical problems. 😋

[@davidfloren5339]

Das Weed von der Erde

[@davidfloren5339]

@@gorankatic40000bc Everywhere and forever the distances brighten purple kush! Forever… forever...

[@coffeeseven]

"No one's going to hear the words anyway". What a nice fella.

[@lenguainglesa2580]

He Stupid the words are the most powerful tool

[@phlarrdboi]

No one can lead her in this. What a charmer

[@andsalomoni]

If it was true, they could sing "Tra-la-la-la-laaa..."

[@haliaeetus8221]

To me this sounds like an elaborate version of the Theme of The Itchy & Scratchy Show anyway.

[@Mooseman327]

@@phlarrdboi She knows this piece better than Lenny does. She's 100% correct here and Lenny is being deaf and dumb and betraying Mahler's music. She's holding back due to professionalism. Lenny is conducting this segment like a high school band conductor...a poor one.

[@janetkenny1974]

Ludwig was a consummate musician and understood Mahler's intentions as well as Bernstein. She knew that sharp rhythm and clear attack would make it work on every level. Speed doesn't always sound 'faster' or more exciting. I can see that she is close to tears. I can remember a music coach telling an ensemble not to bother with the words in a Rossini patter piece. "Just say bodabodaboda--the audience will never know." But Rossini knew.

[@bobgreen1236]

"Who can hear the words anyway?" What a great thing to tell the vocalist, especially one of HER stature......

[@krebgurfson5732]

the singing isn't nearly as interesting as the instruments in this situation, not even sure why it's there

[@bobgreen1236]

@@krebgurfson5732 Becasue that's how the dude WROTE it.....I don't think she was freestyling......

[@agnidas5816]

what it really tells us is that the conductor doesn't care for the music either and is just doing a job... one he is not fit to be doing .

[@johnbell6040]

@@bobgreen1236 Damn funny comment. Made me LOL. Well done.

[@biruss]

@@bobgreen1236 indeed.

[@Antaios632]

I love that she's 100% correct, and the conductor is like "yeah, but whatever, who's even listening to the words." 😂

[@qwasyx3]

IS she though? I was able to sing that bit at a faster rate than her after two tries.

[@andblom88]

@@qwasyx3 Same here, but had to down 5 beers first.

[@cooltrades7469]

So why do you think a conductor like Bernstein wanted a specific tempo? ...the thing is that if you slow down the intsrumental part is not good either . So his opinion of that part being impossible ...it was about correlating voice and orchestra .

[@TheMightyHams]

@@qwasyx3 She's a professional singer and ultimately her reputation is also on the line when she performs. She probably could sing at his tempo, although would have to sacrifice tone, volume and clarity to do so, which would ultimately take away from the vocal performance.

[@thatpacho]

@@qwasyx3 i dont even know what to say... if you actually think you can do this better than her.... you're just delusional.

[@Aelwyn666]

She's absolutely correct and everyone knows it. I can genuinely feel her frustration. It's erratic!

[@notinterested8452]

He's just having revenge.

[@gfrizzleshizzlemanizzle]

It is erotic.

[@PixelatedMagikarp]

Not really her speed change ruined the instrumentals… there’s a reason he’s asking for a very specific speed.

[@bobmarley2140]

But that's like saying a painting is wrong because it is too bright. no. it is what it is. if he slowed then it would be something different

[@notinterested8452]

He's just a tasteless person too crass to understand the music.

[@willrobinson1229]

And then after that brief, but tense exchange, she sings the following slower section like an angel. Musicians are amazing how they can keep moving and deliver regardless of outer circumstances. They have a training which allows them to perform at a certain level no matter what is going on.

[@edithbannerman4]

@Hello there, how are you doing this blessed day?

[@Domarius64]

Well, she's a professional, any professional in any industry should do this.

[@DJ_POOP_IT_OUT_FEAT_LIL_WiiWii]

like an angel is quite a stretch, the whole thing sounds pretty annoying

[@headoverheels88]

Wasn't a singer, but a professional ballet/contemporary dancer and yup. In order to survive the professional scene, you HAVE to learn how to learn: you have to learn to learn new material quickly, learn how to adapt, learn to correct other's mistakes, etc. Eventually, it comes automatic!

[@svenboelling5251]

That's just a bad joke, the text, the language, etc. dictate how fast it can and may be. He had no idea about it. It was impossible what she was supposed to do.

[@heh.9166]

i love the reaction of the rest of the orchestra, they’re just like: 😐🎺 😐🎻

[@catherinepruettpianist4971]

you just made me spit out my coffee

[@zacherypun]

underrated comment

[@mantabond]

Hahaha.

[@loiman4179]

Relatable

[@MM-ud1xf]

They’re like “Jesus, Christa! Give it a rest already!”

[@andymartin8162]

She is absolutely right--this sounds awful--as if he's trying to get it over with.

[@ormand.943]

Yes

[@varelion]

Well, that particular passage is expressive. It describes young noble riders wildly rushing in and disturbing a scenery in which young beautiful ladies sit near the water enjoying themselves. And so the music has to express this situation. The orchestra as well as the singer should act as breathless because the narrator becomes breathless and shaken by the scene. The pace of the music becomes that of a galopping small asian horse. Lenny took that to the exteme. Others, like Klemperer gave the whole thing a little slower pace to preserve the beauty and the clarity of the music.

[@9873459872134234]

Sounds like Mahler on meth

[@sophia.6233]

agreed!!!

[@BecentiComposer]

this section is awful

[@matthewhrdlicka1112]

Ms. Christa Ludwig, one of the greatest singers to ever walk this Earth, should never be referred to as “Vocalist”. 😬

[@claramagdalena8419]

Thank you, I really agree. Why is his name in the title and hers not? She is a superstar and a living legend!

[@galvinn]

At first I thought she was just another vocalist but nope she's that famous

[@Lenosun]

Yes but she is just a human

[@arturopenaperalta4344]

I know, right? He did the same to José Carreras in another video with Bernstein on it...

[@Mawrdew]

Amen to that!

[@peteskyrunner4845]

Doesn't matter if no one can hear the words, the poor woman's still got to breath. She done the right thing.

[@MichaelFineMusic]

Not just a 'vocalist' but one of the world's greatest mezzos to ever grace the stage.

[@VanessaTagliabueYorke]

glad that someone said this finally!!!!

[@rachelkingsley668]

🤣

[@fleurafricaine5740]

Trying to use her clout to cover her inability to get the job done.

[@MichaelFineMusic]

@@fleurafricaine5740 I'm afraid that opposite is true. Ludwig is the one who shows understanding of the music while Bernstein, sadly, comes across as a narcissist who doesn't give a damn about what the composer wrote.

[@cristianocarrilloso3343]

@@fleurafricaine5740 Sheesh, understand the people first.

[@FernandoDelucchiFernald]

Lenny could have found another way to gain the same level of intensity. Tempo is not the only way to give expressive intensity to music. And when the music is vocal, with text (which according to the score should be sung by a soloist), it is a crime to focus on the orchestral while leaving the soloistic in the background. Lenny was a genius but in this case I think Christa Ludwig was absolutely right.

[@awreckingball]

Pity you weren't there to show him how it should be done.

[@MisterWalter864]

Lenny? Really Nando? or Nano or as Robin Williams would have said Nano Nano! There is no absolute in art.

[@pimpmytoast]

@@MisterWalter864 I raised an eyebrow at that, too! Lenny and Chrissy in action :DD How did I got here? I was listening to Mozi. To Wolfi

[@cocolasticot9027]

@@awreckingball Yeah too bad. I could've shown him how to respect a world class musician.

[@toddgraber3675]

I adore them both. But no one is infallible or has ALL the right answers. Music is flexible. Here- I think Christa should have been respected and listened to. And if you are a Bernstein lover who believes he can do no wrong, listen to his Mozart Requiem...so incredibly overly romanticized and self-indulgent...It may be Bernstein, but it isn't Mozart

[@johnmorrissey46]

It comes across to me as a very healthy debate in a rehearsal and part of the natural process. There is a huge respect between the pair of them and they worked together many times. She is probably just disappointed that she can’t give him what he wants. It’s very typical of nowadays that any kind of disagreement between people should be seen as some sort of terrible feud. These after all are the days when people aren’t allowed to disagree with each other without being blocked or being labelled

[@gcg8187]

i agree, well said.

[@andy6877]

Exactly, that's just a debate in the rehearsal process, they were both very civil

[@bm4114]

People disagree all the time in rehearsals today. You’ve made your point though and that’s what matters.

[@johnmorrissey46]

@@bm4114 Oh they do that’s the creative process I guess. I think I was making a wider point probably about social media which wasn’t really appropriate to this group in retrospect.

[@AlexSosaBolivia]

I agree. It's a most unfortunate realty in this age of social media where tens of millions have seen their universe reduced to the distance from the end of their nose to whatever screen they spend 12+ hours a day staring slack-jawed at, looking for the next "outrage."

[@donjave7146]

As a composer with 30 years of experience I would say she is correct it's too fast and pushing them too hard too soon, it also muddles the words, trust me some people like the words of a song and it's meaning than the melody, one individual came and told me I really love the meaning of the song wonderfully Written I told him it was the lyric writer who wrote it and not me

[@davidsheriff9274]

You have thirty years of experience, and I have zero years of experience, and even I can see that it is obviously way too fast, she can't even keep up. And when she tells him this,he says, " It's so much slower than we usually do it". WHAT?

[@alpyre]

@@davidsheriff9274 It's not only too fast, the orchestra is obviously rushing during the verse. I sense something deliberate is going on there.

[@madsam7582]

There is a metal track by muse that sounds great as the full metal version, but they also did a more slow synth version that is mellow and it really allows the lyrics to come out.

[@Dreamer10888]

This man was gaslighting her

[@DavidWilliams-cm4ow]

Why would the composer write a vocal SOLO unless you are meant to hear it! There is some attitude here.

[@philswaim392]

"No ones going to hear the words anyway" - Mahler when he wrote that passage im sure

[@andregazso8059]

This is not a 'vocalist' This is Christa Ludwig! Crazy title

[@rachelweishoff2312]

I second this comment!!!!

[@Monnarchmonnarchy]

She is a great singer, no doubt. That crook is just a stick waver

[@Elhombresombra]

Christa Ludwig, the Legend... "a vocalist"--- ~_~

[@Monnarchmonnarchy]

@roz doreman you are an ignorant! I am not talking on a conductors, but on a crooks and dilettantes. He is not a conductor, dont describe this, pal. Find out another. Singer learning how to sing a long time, while that disasters need just a stick to wave

[@Monnarchmonnarchy]

@roz doreman find out a dirty words and now you can use it only?

[@stevenessig1848]

No mere "alto" or "vocalist" but Christa Ludwig one of the greatest operatic and lieder performers of the twentieth century. Strange heading this.

[@michaelmcdonald8452]

I didn’t know who she was. You’re deciding an implied “mere.” It isn’t false. The point if the video is made stronger by its current title instead of saying her name.

[@robkunkel8833]

I’m so over these strange headings. Half the time that I don’t subscribe is over that. I’ve unsubscribed from a lot of video venders because the headings are so stupid.

[@robkunkel8833]

I’m learning about breathing from a book called ‘oxygen advantage’. The more I think about breathing the more I think about how these classically trained vocalists must have done this intuitively.

[@frogmouth]

mezzo and not at the alto end of the range

[@Monnarchmonnarchy]

Just listen how mezzo singing today, Christa is a glorious. Of course, she must be in a lists of bests. Bad comparing from me, but conductors now struggling to hear a cow singing

[@emncaity]

Absolutely made my day. Love both of these people, and especially love that she stands up to him (rightly, I think).

[@acey850]

"It doesn't matter. Nobody can hear the words anyway" That was such as backhanded dismissal. Ugh

[@sarahjones-jf4pr]

Ace R yes Maestro Bernstein could be catty,certainly was there.

[@paulthoresen8241]

It really wasn't, she was probably concerned about articulation, people can't hear the words as much as they can the pitch, he is genuinely trying to help

[@noblesetsentimentales]

I actually thought he was trying to express the impetuosity of the horsemen depicted in the lyrics with this galloping tempo or something, and then he said that and I was so confused.

[@EAbc-bt6em]

Haha that reminds me of my 1 week visit at a zoo. There was a guy that knew like every bird of the whole planet and they were discussing about what birds they should buy. And he said: "The visitors don't know shit about those birds so it doesn't matter anyway" Looks like in every job there is that kind if guy. And to be honest, both(bernstein and the zoo expert) were kind of right...

[@michael1]

@Jeremy Davidson How is it an 'insult' to point out that the vast majority of an audience won't speak the language of the piece?

[@handsfree1000]

The rule is generally.- Soloist takes priority over conductors.

[@ceilingunlimited2430]

That's what I was thinking the whole time. Frequently the conductor seems to be the star of the show and it therefore must be the conductor's interpretation of the music, so even the soloist becomes the instrument, to be directed as one would direct the second violins. But it annoys the H out of me. She's doing to singing, she knows how to optimize the use of her voice, she is the one who will bring all the emotive musical elements into the solo, so while they may collaborate on how to perform it, in the end, he follows her. Our church organist is forever leading soloists, instrumental and vocal, like it is a race to the end. If he doesn't get to set a formula 500 tempo he's not happy. Very, very, very annoying to feel constantly pushed through an entire piece. He was the final straw for me playing trumpet at my home church.

[@KurtRichterCISSP]

It is the conductor's prerogative to defer to the soloist. It is tradition, not a requirement. The conductor is quite literally running the show, and if the soloist's performance is impeding his vision of the production, the soloist would be wise to adapt.

[@TimAndyMik]

I agree, that is if the conductor actually believes this.

[@TimAndyMik]

@@KurtRichterCISSP Sometimes the conductor is there to 'serve' the purpose of his musicians as well, not override them.

[@KurtRichterCISSP]

@@TimAndyMik there's absolutely a high level of synergy. But there must be an established hierarchy because there will always be the odd disagreement here and there

[@jimmy5196]

Um...she wasn’t “arguing” about the tempo.....she was saying his tempo was physically too fast for her to sing all those words.

[@hijodelaisla275]

"Um"

[@OdaKa]

She should step it up then

[@SaraMarieBuggy422]

I dare you to try

[@tamarathiebaux-heikalo1547]

@@OdaKa do you sing? Then sing what she was singing. Or trying to sing.

[@zoomerphilosopher4057]

well i bet others did it before and she probably did it later so she probably hadn't worked it up enough and eventually did. Still her fault anyways, the words didn't impossible, sure hard but not impossible

[@zadtrax]

To directors everywhere: you might think that you’re always in charge, but when it comes to the skills of the musicians are real close to working with, that’s not necessarily the case. If you conduct the song too fast and your vocalist can’t keep up, then slow down your tempo.

[@torterrakart7249]

That's a tip I would also give to conductors

[@robotnik77]

...or get a vocalist who can...I think he would have trouble finding one.

[@lindagprice]

No one can hear the words?! Then why would one sing the song/have words at all?!! Ms. Ludwig is 100% right.

[@jarlbalgruufthegreater1758]

The woman's voice is an instrument there she is not an individual singer

[@JohnSmith-oe5kx]

The fault probably lies with the composer. It is quite easy to write something that is impossible to sing correctly.

[@timothywilliams1359]

@@JohnSmith-oe5kx Mahler never wrote a single note of vocal music that was impossible to sing correctly.

[@JohnSmith-oe5kx]

@@timothywilliams1359 I have never sung any Mahler, so I will have to take your word for it. But I havw heard several renditions of this work and it certainly does not seem like a cake walk.

[@DeLorean4]

From the perspective of the general public, Bernstein is correct. He may have chosen this controversial stance to cater to the predominantly non-German-speaking Israeli crowd. They'd likely respond better to instrumentals with more pep than clearer German vocals. He's being a showman/businessman.

[@marzannaclassics3347]

I am saddened to inform that Christa Ludwig passed away yesterday. Her legacy lives on. ⭐️

[@abner1153]

what? what happened?

[@marzannaclassics3347]

Abner she was 94 years old. She had a long life well lived. I’m not sure if it was due to health issues, but anyway, it was bound to happen eventually.

[@arnoldbradford8438]

There was nobody better in this repertoire than she!

[@ricbarker4829]

@@abner1153 She couldn't catch her breath.

[@annulrsolformrkelse4023]

@@ricbarker4829 Idk if I should laugh or be mad

[@inorikwanon8629]

The great Christa Ludwig was right, the Bernstein's tempo was too fast.

[@brandonichavez5700]

@@rolexrichard8154 lmao what does that have to do with anything? People be coming out of nowhere to hate

[@Metalpazallteway]

@@gregoryborton6598 This piece sounds very Broadway when she comes in, almost Sondheim she could've just spoke it almost with no breathing issues..

[@christopherthorkon3997]

I have to agree. Just too fast.

[@octaviocgsa]

@@gregoryborton6598 lol relax man, you sound deranged

[@accs4]

Yes. It’s a bit of a miscalculation on Bernstein’s part.

[@pedrojorge1912]

For the performance, look for _"Mahler - Das Lied von der Erde (The Song of the Earth) English Subtitles"_ video - more or less at 26:09. She performed this passage brilliantly.

[@lauraock9946]

Thank you so much!

[@mannixisle]

The Harvard musicologist Hugo Leichtentritt wrote "I thoroughly disapprove of Mr. Bernstein's arrogant attitude and of the air of superiority assumed by him." That assessment was shared by many musicians.

[@tophan5146]

Fortunately Bernstein didn’t care

[@aivarasz]

luckily, critics and musicologists do not perform, and its not them who we look forward to seeing on stage.

[@massimodevitor3131]

OMG......Leichtentritt disapprove !

[@Oscar3]

It is a rehearsal. When Berstain says "it doesn't matter", he is opening doors to her. Get on tempo first and then we will work on the rest. IT IS A REHEARSAL. No vs Yes. I'm sure YES won at the end.

[@christiandaniel9708]

That's why nobody has ever heard something about the great conductor Hugo Leichtentritt

[@bubffm]

There‘s another intersting interview (in German) with Christa where she says the following: Karl Böhm got it always right Karajan was always either too soft or too loud Bernstein was always either too slow or too fast But of the three, only Bernstein could communicate music with an unparalleled intensity. Christa, who will turn 93 in a week or so put that pretty well!

[@seedyoda5714]

Bernstein was also the only one of the three who wasn't a nazi xD

[@jakovskok1465]

I've seen it too just recently, it's a marvellous interview dedicated to the memory of Bernstein. He was a genius, yet Christa said that he simply didn't know anything about the voices and voice techniques. Thank God she's still alive and sharp to share those interesting stories with us.

[@1BioMarco]

@@seedyoda5714 Sorry, I don't get what you want to say. Not being a Nazi makes Bernstein a better musician than Böhm or Karajan?

[@jakovskok1465]

Can't believe i wrote this just a month ago, now she's away too... Rest in peace, Christa

[@carmangreenway]

@@1BioMarco just a better person, which is by far more important...

[@silvr94]

At 01:51 a string player starts practising the beginning of the overture to Smetana's "The Bartered Bride" 😂

[@christopherhill2786]

well spotted!!!

[@Perrosiutico]

Good ear!

[@achmedmohamed4708]

The violin player starts it already at 1:40

[@sixtusleberbaum47]

If you watch it from 1:26, the violinist (on the right with red shirt) probably felt that the Smetana sounded similar and a natural way to finish off that phrase of the Mahler which they had cut off! Other players behind him smile.

[@janulbrich1679]

I love KZbin

[@tonirose6776]

Can't believe Bernstein tells her, 'You can't hear the words anyway'. This is what people - musicians and even conductors - tell themselves/others when a difficult passage occurs. I thought this only occurred on the amateur level. What an eye-opener. I'm glad the title wasn't clickbait; the channel's operator could have done that, easily, but chose to use neutral words. Thanks for uploading.

[@jamesrawlins735]

I always hated hearing that from a conductor or director. I remember doing Gilbert and Sullivan (The Gondoliers) and I would emphasize the consonants in my songs - then hear "Be more musical". When I would ask about having the audience understand the lyrics (cause their great lyrics), I was told other than a few famous songs, no one really understood half of the words in a lot of the songs. The only vindication I got was from a few people who told me they didn't really understand what was going on in the long musical sequences, but they could understand my part because they understood the words.

[@kevinmaclean6607]

I understand his point though. It’s a patter song. The audience doesn’t absorb the words in the moment. It’s about the rhythm and pattern of the music that makes it work. They can only really appreciate the lyrics if they already know them, in which case they’re inclined to be a bit more forgiving with the enunciation.😊

[@treesny]

@@jamesrawlins735 W.S. Gilbert was scrupulous about writing (and sometimes re-writing) lyrics so that every word could be heard clearly: Arthur Sullivan kept the orchestra in check so as to make sure that the singers could be heard. They worked at the peak of their craft in a "lesser" genre, which has ensured the durability of their comic operas when so many others have vanished without a trace.

[@RaineStudio]

@@jamesrawlins735 Over-enunciated consonants are a mark of amateurism.

[@mhkuntug]

Among many distinct characteristics of mythos and ritual, this feature is also akin to this genre of music. Rhythm starts telling the story as people start loosing the meaning of the words.

[@fffilipa]

Christa Ludwig is not a "vocalist", she is one of the most brilliant mezzo-sopranos of the 20th century.

[@dewok2706]

nobody asked or cares...

[@heikkikekalainen806]

Christa Ludwig was one of the greats and knew her Mahler much better than the most overrated "maestro" Bernstein.

[@JonathanVachon777]

@@dewok2706 well thats where you are wrong.. there is at least 1 person that care apparently

[@damage0311]

@@dewok2706 trash

[@chrisamadei2565]

A mezzo soprano is a "vocalist".

[@TomKilworth]

"It doesn't matter… who can hear the words anyway?" Yeah, thanks Lenny…

[@mdavidmullins]

He's not wrong. People go in knowing the story, knowing the lyrics. They don't use understanding of the language to grasp the story; they use their grasp of the story to experience the music. In most opera, the musical performance is the point.

[@jimmyj6209]

@@mdavidmullins This is why Classical music is dying, there is no regard for the audience member to experience something organically, relying on being informed prior as a crutch. As for Opera, it is the music that accompanies the voice and the drama, not the other way round 🤦‍♂️

[@mdavidmullins]

@@jimmyj6209 Being a professional musician, I recognize accompaniment when I see it. Nonetheless, the organic experience you speak of has never been a part of opera. This might be trying to overlay modern sensibilities on an older art form. Just as ancient Greek audiences would hear stories of the Gods and know what was coming (the ancient myths were told & retold over and over) so too have opera fans known the story going in. It is widely acknowledged that much of opera is not understandable even to native speakers. There is much in Verdi which, as language, cannot be understood by Italians. For your assertion to be valid, people would need to be fluent in Italian to experience Puccini; in German to watch _Der Ring des Nibelungen,_ in French to get anything out of recording of Leontyne Price bringing the eponymous _Carmen_ to life. I'm also not convinced that classical music is dying. I was listening to it at age twelve. Music programs in schools even here in Texas brim with young musicians. If ever such music was dominant, though, that was a very long time ago. If we take as true the assertion that classical music were dying you could not lay blame at the feet of the classical music world however. Failures of education is where you should set your sights. Realize that your argument is not with me; it's with Leonard Bernstein-not exactly a philistine.

[@vesteel]

​@@mdavidmullins Certainly it would be impossible for people to know the story of a work when it was premiered (unless its based popular novels/stories, but don't forget original operas!) There is also a reason they translated songs and operas into different languages way back then. There are productions of Carmen in Italian, Figaro in German, and even Mahler's symphonies in English depending on where you're performing it. (e.g. Zarberflote in Italian kzbin.info/www/bejne/rmrEcoaHmK2qhNE recorded in MET Opera 1902) If the words don't matter anyway, then why waste your time hiring a librettist? It's an insult to the writer to call them irrelevant or subpar to the music!

[@vesteel]

Bernstein also contradicts himself here in a rehearsal of his West Side Story where they try to correct Jose Carreras's accent in order to be clear in his singing - kzbin.info/www/bejne/i6Cui5-ZnsmVo9U

[@LokIArioch]

"it doesn't really matter, nobody can hear the words anyway" - every death metal vocalist's mantra

[@johnwilson5329]

What I love about this video is that they are both right. Ludwig's diction is second-to-none and this requires more effort and time, but the chaotic way this passage is scored means that any effort is wasted. The pragmatic Mahler never lived to hear this live and probably would have fixed it if he had. Bernstein clearly decided that the only solution to the dilemma is to plow through it. People shouldn't read too much into the dispute, since they both clearly respected each other and collaborated countess times. They're both great artists trying their best with an impossible passage.

[@aidenpeleg2789]

Thank you! It's frustrating to see everyone frame this like big egotistical Bernstein ignoring and speaking down to poor Ludwig. Christa Ludwig loved working and singing with Bernstein and never recalled it as difficult - this is two short minutes out of a very long friendship and collaboration between the two.

[@davidschlager778]

Now they will continue that discussion in heaven, Mahler himself included.... RIP Christa Ludwig!

[@carolleenkelmann4751]

And Mahler would have the last say...

[@philippraeke3912]

@@carolleenkelmann4751 i don't know if Bernstein will agree 😂

[@sarahjones-jf4pr]

@@carolleenkelmann4751 Mahler would have a job to get one word In with L.B in full flow.. i

[@carolleenkelmann4751]

@@philippraeke3912 don't forget, we are in heaven. Berstein might not even be present..unless of course it was a conductors heaven.

[@Herr_Flick_of_ze_Gestapo]

no they wont discuss this in heaven. not possible since bernstein was a jew.

[@technoxkft.5660]

It's pretty simple: if the singer can't breathe, she can't sing.

[@seanleith5312]

It's all Mahler's fault, terrible composer.

[@xtraa]

Sure, no one can sing without breathing. But this has been another Problem here.

[@thought-provokingvideos5464]

HE'S A POS EXPLOITER

[@maxington26]

Well that solves nothing, thank you.

[@Padybu]

inward singing ?

[@goolly1]

She pulled it off. She was obviously a tad out her comfort zone due to the fast tempo but, she didn't give up. I respect that. The beauty of rehearsals to figure out all the little quirks before the live performance. Cheers! 🎙👍🏾

[@marksuperfly8426]

Which brings us to what might be the point - Bernstein got from her what nobody else could do, and even she didn't think she could. Maybe that was part of his genius. Or not. Was the end product better at his tempo or hers ?

[@goolly1]

@@marksuperfly8426 Great question, indeed! What's interesting to me is that Bernstein mentioned to her that the current tempo is already slower than it should be. Not sure if that comforted her though. Lol!

[@JointFive]

@@marksuperfly8426 Her product was much better, he could have found other ways to bring intensity

[@whyme7996]

@@marksuperfly8426 It should not have been "got". It sucked.

[@stoicepictetus3875]

Mrs Ludwig is absolutely right. Good for her she speaks up. Perfect example for all of us.

[@erlandhagegardofficial]

@stoicepictetus3875. Agree with you. At Staatsoper, Hamburg, I sang with Christa Ludwig. She was fantastic♥ Greetings //Erland

[@Aacomplexname]

While Bernstein is considered one of the best conductors, or really musicians, in history I think when you don't play an instrument there is a bit of a disconnect in its capability. Still a musical genius of course just my thought.

[@chemprofmatt]

@@Aacomplexname Who are you referring to as far as not playing an instrument?

[@me-xx2gl]

As a former soloist, I was taught I led the parade. The orchestra or accompanist needed to follow my lead. But then, I did not sing with bernstein.

[@KmwAmg]

But you are right !

[@abrahamlincoln9758]

Even in that wasn't the case, try signing, "des einen wiehert fröhlich auf, und scheut, und saust dahin, über Blumen, Gräser wanken hin die Hufe, sie zerstampfen jäh im Sturm die hingesunk'en Blüten, heil wie flattern im Traumel siene Mähnen dampfen heiß die Nüstern" without enough time to breath.

[@AdrianLopez-sb7eo]

@James Cunico "That's simply not true. If that was the case, there would always be a delay between you and what the orchestra would play if they follow you." There would be if the orchestra were literally *following* the soloist, but I don't think that's the claim. The idea is the conductor follows the soloist's lead and the orchestra follows the conductor, and because they all know and have rehearsed the piece they end up in perfect sync.

[@stthomasmore4811]

Jessye Norman once spoke of her duty to enter the fabric of the orchestra by knowing whatever needs to be known in the score beforehand. Does the bassoon affect your cue? The second violin? LEARN them. One great error in the training of serious singers is the institutional valuing of the somatic over the intellectual. The body should serve the music. Full stop. She should have inside her 20 different tempi and 20 different accomodations to the objective metre. A phenomenal voice is no guarantee of equally phenomenal musicianship.

[@nicolasmajendie1229]

@@stthomasmore4811 Jessye knew. And Christa knew as well. The tempo in the video is the tempo in the later audio recording and she aced it because she was a consummate musician.

[@TheMullela]

Imagine: Rehearsing for years and years, making it to the very top of vocalists, pouring all your blood, sweat and soul into it. Then he comes along and tells you: „nobody hears this anyway, at least we know that you sing“. I saw her heart RIP😂

[@gordonwu6828]

Well its Bernstein

[@brumels1570]

Well Birgit Nilsson was told that in sections where the orchestra would be so loud anyway that ahe should not worry about exhausting herself trying to sing over them or to enunciate the words. I think that is good advice to safeguard the voice.

[@hello-rq8kf]

cry about it

[@chrisbatson3402]

Yeah I would walk off and show that you know yourself worth is better than Bernstein not respecting your in put.

[@Dinosaurs_with_laser_guns]

I would become furious and wouldn’t be able to contain it.

[@aliyardimoglu5629]

RIP Ms. Christa Ludwig, a great mezzo soprano, dramatic soprano, and an intellect....

[@brynjarhoff-lr6hw]

This is fantastic from one of the greatest singer in the world. Christa Ludwig telling Bernstein that his tempo is wrong. Bravo Bravissimo for Lady Ludwig!!

[@j_m_b_1914]

I don't think she's trying to make the argument that his tempo is wrong -- only that the tempo isn't allowing her to catch her breath to sing through it.

[@AMsamification]

@@j_m_b_1914 NO ONLY THAT THE TEMPO IS WRONG..

[@jakovskok1465]

The two got along, but Christa said in an interview (with Everding) that Bernstein was hardly able to help the singer, unlike Böhm or Karajan. Lenny is still one of my favourite conductors, but now I see what was on her mind.

[@Apfelstrudl]

Star singers were probably the only ones who had a good relation to Böhm. The orchestras clearly didn't.

[@jakovskok1465]

@@Apfelstrudl not even all the star singers, Martha Mödl was creeped out by him hahah

[@franziskakre8309]

@@Apfelstrudl There are many orchestra musicians who loved him. For example the "Sächsische Staatskapelle", "Dresdner Staatskapelle" then.

[@Pimp-Master]

That's not a surprise because if Bernstein could have "helped" her, then you wouldn't need her. Bernstein could be everyone.

[@marcusonesimus3400]

Jake Skok Bernstein could be very persuasive in some of his interpretations, but not always. He managed somehow to make Ravel's 'La Valse' lugubrious and boring. Monteux's peppy version provided the antidote.

[@joeymag593]

If no one can hear the words anyway, then why bother having a vocalist in the first place? Good lord, I feel for her.

[@steffendf]

Suggest to rename this post into "Christa Ludwig Disagrees with Conductor's Tempo". ;-p

[@maryclarafjare]

😄😄😄

[@RoxannSouci]

YES! 🥳

[@MrPolinesso3]

Agree

[@NelsonMontana1234]

I get it. There may still be musicians unfamiliar with Christa but intrigued by the title. So this way it gets more hits. Maybe.

[@AdamBechtol]

:p

[@jeffriesmovies]

This is what art-making is -- solving problems -- beautiful to see two masters in the thick of it

[@dianebirchman1708]

"This is slower than we ever do it"... " It doesn't matter, who can hear the words anyway" ... "do it an octave higher" He doesn't really want to hear what she has to say, on with rehearsal!!

[@BabyBoomersDoomer]

She’s so wonderfully talented and she tackles the notes hard.

[@felipelotas5609]

The fast passages are very very discomforting to hear...but then...in the end of the video, those medium range phrases...this woman was a piece of heaven in the earth. Just a few words and you can feel the greatness of a voice. What a diva!!!

[@Daniel-ox1sb]

For real, I have no knowledge of this genre and was relieved by the beauty of her voice when the phrases are slowed.

[@benjaminharris8407]

Diva?

[@kurtralske4026]

Whenever artists collaborate, they ALWAYS disagree and sometimes fight. It's considered normal.

[@antiZymotic]

I feel bad for her when he said "no one is going to hear the words, anyways", like.. This is her craft, man. Respect and listen to your co-workers when they speak on a subject they know better than you, even if you had a "vision". I promise your ego will be okay.

[@sparhawk2195]

She's singing to the music, not the music being played to her singing.

[@antiZymotic]

@@sparhawk2195 Of course, because it was initially a vision imagined by the individual that wrote the music. That does not mean that they necessarily have any major expertise on vocal capabilities. : )

[@quanganhle6148]

@@sparhawk2195 How does that work?

[@andrewohler2902]

@@sparhawk2195 no. The piece was based on Chinese poetry about the earth and is named The Song of The Earth. The piece is equal parts Voice and Orchestra and the voice is singing the text that inspired the creation of the work.

[@matthewh1436]

I don't think he intended any disrespect.

[@haule1522]

That "vocalist" is the great Christa Ludwig who just passed away a week ago. Respect and RIP to both great musicians.

[@javiereduardoguzmangomez7434]

Hello… What’s this piece name?

[@manolis.799]

“Alto” Bro that’s Christa Ludwig EDIT: the uploader has decided to change his original title from “alto disagrees” to “vocalist disagrees” either way both show his absurd insistence on not calling one of our finest mezzo-sopranos by name. For reasons unknown.

[@soundtreks]

I was just going to say the same thing. One of the greatest singers the classical world has ever seen, and one of the finest Mahler interpreters

[@Dizzyfingers2]

@@soundtreks Ditto.

[@maximilianbjorklund6544]

Hahahaha. This comment made my day XD

[@hosedyassun6718]

It says in the beginning of the video. i didnt know who she was, but when i saw your comment i knew i had seen it in the beginning.

[@stefanwild326]

My thoughts exactly

[@henrykaspar3634]

This is a normal professional dispute, and intrinsic part of intense and fruitful collaboration. Ludwig and Bernstein thought the world of one another. In one of her late interviews, Christa Ludwig was asked who had been her favorite conductors. She mentioned Karajan, Klemperer, but: "Bernstein was, for me, the most splendid of them all" (Bernstein war mir der Herrlichste von allen).

[@Mezzotenor]

Miss Ludwig and Maestro Bernstein were great friends. He entrusted her with the role of The Old Lady in his dream-cast performance of "Candide."

[@jenylogan1]

His ‘dream cast’ performances were always a bit of a worry !

[@dianaaljadeff2983]

Candide wasnt his Dream cast .He chose June Anderson because he needed a star and the singer he wanted was in other recording company.Later Anderson became one if his friends. Of course Barbara Cook couldnt sing Cunegunde in 1989 at 62 and he didnt cast Madeline Kahn because they wanted famous operatic singers in the recording and Kahn was better known as movie actress.

[@skeptale]

Seeing an esteemed musician like Bernstein saying "it doesn't really matter, nobody can hear the words anyway" just tickles me for some reason

[@ponderoustomes9005]

To a singer that pretty much defeats the purpose

[@WorldComNews]

I know, I could hardly believe my ears that he said that. Having been married to a musician with perfect pitch, I assure him someone would indeed notice!! I'm not a musician but such a discrediting comment from a legendary name is rather surprising to me. It's like Beethoven saying "classical music is of little consequence" of course he would never say this but you get the idea.

[@Morphis]

I wished she went all Eduard Khil after that.

[@chrisdavidson911]

@One of eight billion by being one himself?

[@chrisdavidson911]

@One of eight billion doesn't mean he can't be an asshole

[@maestralala]

In the list of Lenny's favorite singers, who could have been counted on the fingers of one hand, Christa Ludwig stood out as a shining beacon. She was at his side throughout his career for many of his seminal performances, including his great DGG recording of "Candide" in which she reigns supreme in "I am easily assimilated." And at the Carnegie Hall memorial concert for Lenny (private, by invitation only, pulled together in the blink of an eye following Lenny's death), who sang his most beloved Mahler song, "Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen" ? Christa Ludwig, of course.

[@einbayerischerburger1289]

Thanks for your comment and your information. Do you know where I can listen to this version "ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen"?

[@maestralala7993]

@@einbayerischerburger1289 Bernstein's memorial concert at Carnegie Hall was not recorded, that I know of. It was a live performance with an invited audience - no tickets were available or sold.

[@Keytaster]

Bernstein is a genius and had more experience and expertise in his left pinky than most can even comprehend, yet he was still a human being. Was he right here? Absolutely not. If a singer of the highest possible class such as Christa Ludwig cannot even breathe, you're doing your job wrong. Having creative energy and vision does not equate to brute forcing your will against any reasonable debate and the skill of the instrument you're working with. I can yell faster and "the legato doesn't matter anyways" at my piano for thousands of years, it'll never sound like an organ.

[@crazysteve9390]

I can’t watch a video like this without noticing everyone all close together, talking...

[@jpaulo_ap]

Good ol' times.

[@Diogolindir]

Cries in 2021* :(

[@thinkforyourself2109]

The worst part is that asymptomatic transmission of the virus is not scientifically proven to occur, so social distancing made no sense to begin with. We did it because some authority figures told us to but without any basis for doing so.

[@foli8730]

Love the way that she stands up for herself. Gotta be very brave to do this

[@sarahjones-jf4pr]

F Oli Brave??? she is a top notch soprano at least on a level with L.B.

[@noone_at_midnight]

@@sarahjones-jf4pr she was a mezzo not a soprano

[@sarahjones-jf4pr]

@@noone_at_midnight Before criticizing someone get your facts together Christa Ludwig was a Mezzo-Soprano .

[@noone_at_midnight]

@@sarahjones-jf4pr that's literally what I said dumba$$. You called her a soprano

[@sarahjones-jf4pr]

@@noone_at_midnight So classy ......a soprano comes in types ie Mezzo hence Mezzo-SOPRANO "dumba$$ with a degree in music ......

[@marcusyoung5440]

1989, Bernstein conducting Candide, Christa Ludwig as the Old Lady. I was there in the chorus. What glorious memories. Thank you 🙏🏽

[@Pennystockid]

1989? I thought this was possibly the late 1950s. The way everyone is dressed

[@gnubbolo]

Bernstein stands out from the others for his total lack of swing, you have to have it inside you, as Miles Davis said you have to be born with it to feel it. I can feel it, Karajan has a lot of it. Lalo Schifrin. Lemmy Kilmister for example has a lot to offer, it's funny, but that's how it is. Bernstein doesn't have it inside him, he doesn't convey it in his music, which is as flat as the salt lake.

[@vikramkrishnan6414]

As much as I adore Bernstein's conducting, she is absolutely right here

[@MrDecelles]

No she is wrong. Bernstein is directing a full orchestra. not one person. she needs to be able to hit the tough notes... like the orchestra is doing the tough notes.

[@baritonebynight]

@@MrDecelles Its not "hitting tough notes". Non singers like yourself shouldn't speak of what they don't know. A singers job is to interpret the lyrics with a healthy production...his tempo made it impossible for her to do it and she told him so. Hitting a note means the extremes of the range......you really don't know much about music, do you?

[@Neelo5000]

​@@baritonebynight Quit making excuses and just hit the tough notes

[@EllisBoydRedding]

@@Neelo5000 you should talk of hot dogs and beer, you might show some level of expertise there, maybe, but I doubt it

[@Neelo5000]

​@@EllisBoydRedding I'm taking you off my Christmas card list.

[@ershenlin1774]

Christa was lucky to disagree with Lenny. Imagine she had argued with Toscanini.

[@kapellmeisterr]

singing anything written by an Italian

[@juanuceda401]

Or von Karajan...

[@thepianocornertpc]

@@juanuceda401 ..oh..that show guy who was more interested in getting his hands beautifully framed instead of the actual orchestra of which each member was a much better musician than he was.

[@juanuceda401]

@@thepianocornertpc Yes...

[@jimcrawford5039]

Or Reiner!

[@alexgabriel5650]

I've seen another video with Carreras in a similar position. I don't understand why the owner of his channel keeps labelling some of the best operatic singers of all time as "alto" or "tenor", as if they were random people.

[@andy6877]

Yeah it's pretty patronising

[@judithwalker9694]

Maybe he is not familiar with them. I hope he explores Ludwig after this. To me she is greatest in lieder, including her album of Brahms - with Bernstein accompanying her. I think it was made considerably later than this performance.

[@DCBfanboy]

I don't know why people try to argue on this, it doesn't matter. It is exactly the same thing as not saying the name of a barely-kwown singer.

[@OuterGalaxyLounge]

Ironic that you complained about "owner of this channel" not naming people when the owner of the channel's name is right there. lol.

[@jogennotsuki]

@@OuterGalaxyLounge Is the owner of this channel also an acclaimed and world-renowned opera signer?

[@zzzut]

I have worked for five years as a baritone in the opera chorus with a conductor who went to the Bernstein school of conducting, as we said. It was a very fulfilling experience but there was always an issue with tempos. We used to call Gloria all’ Egitto “the agitated glory “ because the maestro’s tempo was unbelievably fast!

[@masonjarboe9926]

As the soloist, it’s her job to advocate to herself and not let maestro conduct her to death. Good on her as one of the most remarkable mezzos to ever do it to show that it can ALWAYS be on your terms!

[@morbidmanmusic]

Wrong.

[@megabugginout]

She clearly was not comfortable with the tempo. He should have slowed it down. Her articulation would have been better.

[@thegeop5906]

Christa Ludwig was a legend in Austria. In the 70s we always loved listening to her hosting Radio Shows - she passed away last April. Unforgotten! ❤️

[@JohnRDallasJr]

This is a tad painful to witness, on so many levels. For several years, a close friend was a composing assistant to the maestro. He spoke to me about Bernstein’s excruciating intensity and nearly impenetrable intransigence, two of many traits Johnny Bayless grew to deeply respect yet fear. This video allowed me to feel what I heard from awestruck Johnny’s appropriately dramatic and welcome reports. Thank you.

[@edithbannerman4]

@Hello there, how are you doing this blessed day?

[@tomboyer5608]

What great historical footage. That's Christa Ludwig, one of the greatest singers of the 20th century and Bernstein, the brilliant American conductor who almost singlehandedly put Mahler back in the standard repertoire. And you can see both points of view -- the singer who feels an artistic duty to sing in a way that the audience can can understand her diction, and the conductor who doesn't want to lose the sense of motion in the music. Bernstein is right, those particular lines in that part of her register cannot be heard over the orchestra anyway -- it's texture. The section near the end of the recording when Ludwig goes into head-tone -- at that point the voice is once again central to the performance -- the audience can hear every word.

[@Mooseman327]

Nope. Christa's right. Lenny's making a hash out of this passage.

[@tomboyer5608]

Lenny's not denying that but what he's saying is the overall tempo, the feeling of motion, is more important than the intelligibility of that bit of text. In this case I think Lenny's right but I respect Christa for trying to protect the text. As the singer she's the guardian of the text.

[@ryan.engstrom]

I just listened to Otto Klemperer conduct this section with Christa Ludwig and... yeah Bernstein's tempo is insane

[@ninahagen1453]

I did too. Best recording ever.

[@sebastiandangerfield9933]

His tempo was insane and so was he. What a pompous and unpleasant man.

[@noblesetsentimentales]

And yet he says "but this is so much slower!" at the beginning of the video. Haha. Typical Bernstein.

[@the_listamin]

"People won't notice" "At least we hear you're singing". I understand why operas are what they are now.

[@djmotise]

Bravo!

[@makisxatzimixas2372]

Can you explain that?

[@the_listamin]

@@makisxatzimixas2372 it was a joke about my impression that operas need subtitles etc. to make people understand what actually is going on and the attention is 100 percent on the music.

[@makisxatzimixas2372]

@@the_listamin Hahaha totally, I went to a Chinese opera once and left after ten minutes.

[@lxathu]

@@the_listamin An evil but nice one. I used to believe opera could not be understood only in foreign languages until I saw the first libretto in my mother tongue.

[@remsan03]

I was taken a back by his cavalier disregard to the music (and to his soloist). If this happened with his favorite composer, can you imagine his attitude to other composers he didn't like as much (or musician with not-as-high caliber)?

[@mareksicinski3726]

'to music'?

[@spacewolfcub]

Back then, such treatment was likely influenced by her being female.

[@jerseymikes3403]

@@spacewolfcub The nazi just didn't like being dominated by the jew.

[@harmoniabalanza]

I wonder how it REALLY turned out in the performance...As a classical singer, I can say SHE is RIGHT!

[@morbidmanmusic]

As a conductor and someone who knows the text, you're wrong. Now where?

[@skisunfb]

Bernstein is an absolute horror here and the orchestra is way too loud; a complete mess. Christa Ludwig is 100% correct.

[@tatyanasmolen880]

It’s shocking that he doesn’t even think to adjust the orchestra volume when singer comes in and acts like a jerk to her….

[@skisunfb]

@@tatyanasmolen880 Frau Ludwig should have simply said: okay Lenny, I’ll tell you what, you sing and I’ll conduct...

[@tatyanasmolen880]

Love it!

[@avocatdenis]

Yes. For all of Bernstein accolades, he was undoubtedly one of the biggest egos in the industry.

[@sebrofc]

No expert here at all but the volume seems way in excess and tempo seems nearly impossible to work in every word she is to sing.

[@kummer45]

She is an amazing singer. Both are gifted musicians. I always love these debates because you se how much effort these people put in their work to entertain us. Thank both of you.

[@bpregont]

He isn't a "musician", he's someone who has convinced people he knows what the fuck he's talking about. He's a schister. Flopping your arms around and bitching at people doesn't make you a musician.

[@ellastarrr1st149]

Bernstien gifted in what exactly?

[@mga2899]

Expecting a bunch of Looney Tunes characters to hit the floor dancing.

[@STELLASCUTENESS]

Fantastic!

[@maxularades9276]

You're right ! That's it. . .

[@AMultipolarWorldIsEmerging]

Disagreements are productive. It’s only stupid people who think every disagreement is controversial or has to be

[@williamboelter63]

It's incredibly fast. One of my all-time favorite moments: Christa Ludwig "Wo die schönen Trompeten blasen" with Bernstein

[@guillermomelantoni2390]

“It doesn’t matter nobody can hear the words anyway" is the main excuse on death metal too :)

[@adecentdelinquent8986]

I can hear the lyrics 👀

[@euremita]

Often also played a tad too fast.

[@ZenFox0]

Christa Ludwig should have sung death metal.

[@garyfreedman4389]

"Nobody can hear the words anyway." Sounds like Trump talking about one of his rallies.

[@Diogolindir]

@@adecentdelinquent8986 well it depends on the style of the vocalist. If he is really good you will notice the lyrics but if he is an old school singer it might sound like just like rhythmic growling.

[@labemolmineur]

"Who can hear the words anyway?" Excuse me? There is nothing more offensive and unmusical to say to a vocalist who put countless hours into understanding and interpreting the text, and it is even more insulting to Mahler, whose texts were most meticulousy chosen and for whom they were deeply felt, almost sacred, not "accidental". It's almost shocking to hear this coming from a musician.

[@Quotenwagnerianer]

You forget that Mahler was very much a "work in progress" composer. In the rehearsal progress he would revise his works quite heavily, because he would find better solutions for his orchestrations. And now you have to take into account that "Das Lied von der Erde" falls among the two finished works that he did not live to see performed. So both "Das Lied" and the 9th Symphony lack this process of refinenment, that all other of his symphonies underwent. That is why the passage exists as it is. Mahler never heard it played with orchestra and had no chance to make corrections, like he normally did. And that is why it is fair to say, that it is problematic.

[@bluesonicstreak7317]

It's also pretty disrespectful to the audience to assume they wouldn't want to hear said words.

[@davidhuang5042]

​@@bluesonicstreak7317 In all honesty, 9/10 times the audience isn't there for the details. Only judges, critics, teachers, and colleagues care.

[@krebgurfson5732]

offensive? what about true lol

[@bluesonicstreak7317]

@@davidhuang5042 - Sorry, but I just had to blink at the idea that the vocalist is a "detail" that the audience wouldn't be there for.

[@smurf902]

Trust me, Christa at this point had done HUNDREDS of concerts, recitals and full opera productions with FULL ORCHESTRA and was used to differing tempi. I just don't understand why he couldn't listen to her.

[@kameron2136]

Imagine a first clarinetist saying “This tempo is too fast”, they’d get told to kick rocks lmao. Vocalist ego coming in

[@venusinaries2927]

Composers and conductors often forget that the human voice is a breath based instrument. If we don't have time to breathe, then we cannot sing the piece. The words are beside the point.

[@klassicalkid90]

Christa was so young in this film! She is one of the best mezzos of all time!

[@moso299]

Just happened to run across this clip. It's pretty wild (and funny, IMO). Yes, the music is a mess, but it may be intentional. I discovered that I actually have this recording on CD (Kollo, Ludwig, Bernstein/IPO), and I can hear them fumbling through this passage (apparently, never resolved). But, I also see that the English translation of the lyrics is describing things like horses with flying hooves, heedlessly trampling the fallen blossoms, Hey!, its mane flutters in frenzy, how hot its nostrils stream! and so on (there's like 6 lines of lyrics to run through in 12 seconds). I think that's the effect Lenny is trying to get, using the loud rambunctious orchestra to trample everything (including, unfortunately, the fallen blossom of Ms. Ludwig), at least until they get to the nice passage about the golden sun reflecting in the clear water, etc, when everything slows down again.

[@JewandGreek]

Didn't expect that voice to come out of that face. WOW!