#10MinuteTalk

Rob Morell from our Product Development team joins Jimmy and Mark once again to give us the 10 minute crash course in magnifiers for red dots. In the wake of our fresh Micro 3x Magnifier release, we ask Rob some of the technical questions behind magnifiers, what they are, how they work and what’s so special about this new Micro 3x? A few misconceptions even get debunked in this short amount of time. Want more magnifier conversation? Let us know! Maybe these deserve a full episode, too?
As always, we want to hear your feedback! Let us know if there are any topics you'd like covered on the Vortex Nation podcast by asking us on any one of our social media platforms and using #VortexNationPodcast.
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[@edwardkruse1820]

I love that you brought a product engineer to the table. Such great insight into your products.

[@stephenkidder8876]

I just added my Vortex 3X magnifier behind my Vortex Strikefire II and it is absolutely fantastic! It also eliminated my astigmatism and I actually see a round dot now! I'm loving it!

[@Godzilla-lo8nv]

I bought this micro 3x and it’s absolutely great. Clear pictures, good eye relief, and the flip without a button works great too.

[@JohnKrieger]

Eye relief for size is good and I agree I wouldn’t call it good eye relief but for the design yes

[@rohawaha]

Magnifiers have their place and market , especially with shooter over 40 , I keep a cased AR pistol in my work vehicle as a get home gun or defence in a natural disaster gun. it is .30 cal. " 7,62x40 Wilson " with a 11.3" barrel and has plenty of knock down power out to 250-300 meters . I use a Holosun Cyclops with bullet drop and a Vortex 3x magnifier . I can easily ding 6'" targets out to 100 meters with just the red dot. I have range tested it at 250 meters using the Vortex 3x and on a 15" x 10" targets I get solid hits 8 out of ten shots making it a far more versatile weapon . Also it gives me positive target identification I would not have without magnification. Only a fool would shoot without first positively identifying their target as a threat .

[@ryangehrke8019]

I have the VMX-3T behind my EoTech and it's awesome! Magnifiers are great. Hope to get the micro soon.

[@Senpai_B]

I did not know you guys had a podcast. This is amazing!

[@VortexNation]

Welcome! :)

[@Ferrari_M5]

I think that I enjoyed the discussion after the headsets came off the most!!! Great information here guys. Thank you.

[@VortexNation]

Lol that's where stuff always gets real good

[@jtcustomknives]

I’m considering running this behind my Aimpoint compM4. Update: I bought one and it’s amazing. Now I came back to this video to hear about running this with the spark lol

[@ripthejacker6020]

I'm extremely happy I watched until the end of the video. That solidifies my decision on a 6x magnifier purchase over an LPVO. Great point about the red dot always being daylight bright.

[@markmadsen6828]

Try a Trijicon,? Don't Kill me please... ;-/

[@mikeholley4488]

hey vortex! make a flip to side 2-6x magnifier. imagine it would mimic a ffp lvpo if used with an rds/hws that has holdovers. all i want for this idea is a 1-10 razor on a lwrc piston rifle with a kac suppressor and a job in the qc dept there.

[@joesephkingston1621]

Got the micro 3X this week to put behind several red dots to see what worked best. Then I watched this video and you mentioned playing with it behind a Spitfire AR. I tried it and it seems to work. But have y’all tested it on the range? In the current ammo climate I’d rather not waste a bunch of rounds and find out there’s some double negative voodoo that kills it in practice.

[@Hawtload]

I'd love to try it

[@mitchbrown3753]

This pairs awesome with the Primary arms micro prism.

[@JohnKrieger]

Super happy with the 3x.

[@austinpowers1999]

Twelve minutes and five seconds is the new 10 minutes.

[@FPS_Bang]

Mines is getting shipped tomorrow I’ve checked tracking like 100 times lol

[@Zack.G23]

Will it fit with an aimpoint pro and backup sights without bridging onto the hand guard? Just sent back the vxm because it forced my aimpoint onto the hand guard slightly

[@trundelingporpoise2404]

I owned a vortex 1x prism and I put a 3x magnifier behind it on my ar15. In daylight, it's amazing for precision (or as much precision as you will be doing with a 3x optic), but there are 2 problems I ran in to. I had to adjust the diopters on both the sight and magnifier to work with eachother. This meant the diopter on the prism sight was not perfectly adjusted for my eyes and the sight picture was slightly blurry when the magnifier was flipped out of the way. The worse of the two problems (in my opinion) was that in lower light environments, light transmission when using both the prism sight and magnifier together was absolutely garbage. I'm assuming that's due to the light having to go through 2 lenses, a gap, and then another 2 lenses. If you want a etched reticle with magnification that is usable at night or low light, get a LVPO.

[@VortexNation]

Sounds about right - the magnifier really isn't designed to work well behind a prism scope like the Spitfire. It can, but definitely not ideal like it is when combined with a red dot or holographic sight.

[@Ender_Wiggin]

Do you like the MDR From desert tech?

[@dougi1967]

Does it come with a low mount? I want to put it behind my low mounted Crossfire. How many rail slots will it need?.

[@sleigh4019]

When I bought my strikefire the original back in idk 2009 maybe at back I think it came with a screw on 2x optic price ..might be wrong but I think I remember that

[@VincitOmniaVeritas7]

Prism and magnifiers can work together if you tweak both diopters. Not as easy as an infinite eye relief on a red dot, but doable.

[@alrozanski8352]

The 3x has been recommended for my AR15 by the gun shop deal with. Going to purchase one.

[@VortexNation]

Sweet! Let us know how you like it!

[@darrylpacholko5495]

I have a Sparc2 red dot ,any suggestions.

[@billc9178]

I want to put this behind a Holosun 510C-GR elite. I shoot rifles left handed. Can I make it flip to the left ? Thanks Vortex !

[@Evan-lx9lw]

Bofeity asked a Q 4 months ago About eye relief Needed to discuss Unlimited eye relief for the red dot The specified eye relief of the magnifier The required gap between the two units and why

[@VortexNation]

Got it - generally speaking, they don't need to be immediately right next to one another, but they should be close. If you space them out too much, the magnifier will start getting too much of the black outer housing of the red dot in its picture and not just the image through the red dot itself.

[@robertsalyers1351]

I've got a pair of reading glasses and a toilet paper roll duck taped to my AR-15....it works Great

[@HabeasJ]

Show how the spitfire works with a magnifier and ill gladly buy one. Just got a micro 3x

[@bofeity]

Rob, how does one increase the "eye relief" on magnifiers? What is the give and take there.

[@JoannaJedrzejczyksForehead]

You don’t. It’s fixed on this unit. Prism scopes/magnifiers are compact, but have less eye relief. Your red dot or holographic sight has infinite eye relief, and is parallax free

[@denisdegamon8224]

Everyone failed mention, that you can flip the magnafier out of the way and use you back up iron sites, while looking through you red dot either on or off. That gives you three options. Also you don't loose briteness due the reduced exit pupil as the magnafixation goes up like what happens with rifle scopes.

[@dennischin8399]

How is work with holosun 510c?

[@TheColonelJJ]

Thanks so much for adding your last 15 second comment!!!

[@eggbert191]

For people who complain about magnifying the red dot reticle just run a 3x prism behind it in a flip mount. Use the reticle in it and shut of the red dot when using the magnification

[@nicholaslevy1679]

I have a vortex spitfire ar prisim sight could I run a magnifier with it

[@joeherrera3522]

Can these work with Rome 5 msn

[@fodderforfreedom4020]

You only need one magnifier is a good selling point. QD makes it nice to go from rifle to rifle.

[@Acidburn3141]

Got a sig sauer Juliet 3 and reddot MSR when I zoom in the magnifier to like anything above 1.75x it gets blurry why is this??

[@rilianriggs4620]

Can you remove the magnifier from the mount and turn it around so it flips the other way?

[@VortexNation]

Absolutely yes

[@markanthonybaldisimo9620]

i love those spams

[@UncleDanBand64]

I might just give this a try! I have the sparc ar. I do not use the added height plate. So I guess it would be absolute Co-witness. Will it line up with that or would I need to raise my Red Dot?

[@anthonylopez4231]

Shootin' with Uncle Dan both th sparc ar and the magnifier can use absolute and lower1/3 co-witness. So yes it will work with your setup

[@UncleDanBand64]

@@anthonylopez4231 thanks for the reply👍

[@VortexNation]

It'll work just fine - just make sure the shim is also removed from the magnifier just like it is on your SPARC AR!

[@UncleDanBand64]

@@VortexNation ok got you thanks for the reply

[@Dr1vePr0]

I have a question... would it not be better to put the magnifier after the red dot or reflex? Wouldn't that in theory make your dot smaller in relation to the target, basically taking you down from let's say 4MOA to 2MOA if your magnifier was 2X... just curious as to the reasoning.

[@VortexNation]

It wouldn't for a number of reasons unfortunately. Perhaps most notably, by mounting the magnifier out in front of the red dot, it's going to be too far away from your eye to see through with any sort of effectiveness or usefulness. These magnifiers have specific "Eye relief" specs like other magnified optics, where you eye needs to be reasonably close to its "Sweet spot" in terms of distance behind the optic to get the best image. So that's one of the biggest reasons it works best behind the red dot nearer to your eye. There are harder to explain reasons as to why it wouldn't work as a great aiming solution and would get pretty goofy to use if they were flip flopped, but all just goes to show it's best to keep it as-is! :)

[@Dr1vePr0]

@@VortexNation cool. Thanks. That makes sense, I was just curious. I assumed there was a reason, it wasn't just arbitrary. I don't have that type of set-up but I always wondered why and how it was done.

[@tymarkham3931]

Yes it will change point of impact if not zeroed

[@timothyarnold1679]

So I just bought the sparq solar, will this magnifier work behind it?

[@VortexNation]

You bet it will!

[@richardcranium9058]

What we need is a podcast explaining the gas masks on the shelf. When the attack comes, do the podcast hosts get them and just leave the guest to asphyxiate? And the SPAM? Is that for the guest only? Can he barter it for a gas mask? So many unanswered questions.

[@mattsmith6828]

I would have bought this if it was compatible with a Larue mount, such as LT755. All they needed to do was make part of this optic circular the whole way around. Oh well, best of luck to them.

[@VortexNation]

Mind us asking what it is about the LaRue mount that makes it a must-have? This is compatible with all EOTech G33 mounts. Had to pick one or the other. Plus, to get the round section needed to work with a magnifier like LaRue's, it wouldn't have been very compact anymore, because the sight would have had to get quite a bit longer.

[@homeropr]

This Wil work with the vortex venom sight ?

[@cameronhickey7771]

I to would like to know the anser to this question.

[@sleigh4019]

I liked my mini vortex but it broke like 2 weeks in and I sent it back and still like 2 years later haven't got my repacment! Lol..kinda a bummer dude there great ..

[@joeflowers9084]

Does it have an adjustable diopter? I assume it does.

[@VortexNation]

Indeed it does

[@crent4148]

You have to zero your red dot first and then zero the magnifier. If not, point of impact WILL be off.

[@23kcaito]

Chris R. You do not zero a magnifier .

[@collinis1]

Kyle yes you do

[@rodneyburkett4325]

Kyle.. 1st zero your red dot optic. 2nd, zero the magnifier to the "red dot" so that the dot is centered in field of view when using the magnifier. Its aligning the magnifier to the red dot, not really zeroing it.

[@redpilledpatriot8484]

Kyle yes you do, you have to adjust the magnifier to the zero of the red dot. Magnifier has adjustment knobs similar to red dot adjusters,

[@JoannaJedrzejczyksForehead]

You don’t “need” to zero the red dot. It will not effect the point of impact. It just centers the entire picture of the red dot, as to maximize your field of view, and to scratch (mine at least) ocd for things not being perfectly centered. I run this specific magnifier behind a SPARC AR II

[@ronjones1414]

So, two years later, what goes with the prism magnifier?

[@thebrassbrigade5963]

Will this work with good Reddots? Holosun ect

[@VortexNation]

It'll work with any red dot or holographic sight, yes.

[@thebrassbrigade5963]

Nice thank you love your Viper 🤙

[@markmadsen6828]

An answer to a question no one asked, in my opinion. Convince me.. Why not just go with a lighted LPVO for less $..? What is the advantage? You can buy a nice quality 1-6X for less $ than a 3X magnifier plus a high quality RDS, with the weight being comparable,,, And less gadgets to F#ck with, a tidier package in my opinion. All due respect,, I'm not convinced that's gaining me anything. But I'm always open to learn something new... Thanks for the video. Maybe a comparison video next, pro's & con's? As my Old Man always said; "Now you have something new to think about"...

[@chono5043]

Will the magnifier help people with astigmatism see the red dot in a more crisp way?

[@VortexOpticsUSA]

The magnifier will not change the way people with astigmatisms see the red dot, unfortunately.

[@GatCat]

With those headsets I thought you were going to break down MNF.

[@VortexNation]

We can certainly do that as well 😉😂

[@GatCat]

Nice!

[@andrewhall1227]

the picture on the wall shows the sheriff with a upside down flash hider.

[@palmer3030]

No, that's just how that one is shaped. Have seen it before

[@susieromano7001]

Maybe the answer is obvious but to me it's not why don't they make red dots and magnifiers together as one unit?

[@MatthewStout]

Because you can get them separate? Makes sense for the company to not have unsold stock sitting around, when people mostly want the red dot on its own. More popular and widely used for a wider variety of weapons, versus people who need a magnifier, like rifle shooters, etc.

[@stephenwilkinson8227]

Beware of the eye relief, its not enough.

[@_chjno]

You couldn't let us left handed shooters have ONE thing?!

[@timfoley3189]

What if I put a magnifier behind a real scope!

[@scottmeyer9196]

They magnify the dot so big it obscures the target.

[@VortexNation]

That is 100% false. The magnifier magnifies everything in front of it - the dot AND the image. If both the dot and the image magnify at the same time, then the net effect is that they are the same exact size in relation to one another as they were when the magnifier wasn't engaged. No change at all and no more target covered up at all.

[@scottmeyer9196]

@@VortexNation I have two Vortex red dots and two red dot magnifiers. when I shoot 50 yrds or less the red dot magnifier is not needed. When shooting out at 100 yrds the dot magnifier totally occludes a 9" target. I find shooting without it (magnifier) at any distance I'm more accurate. Tell me what I'm doing wrong. I bought two magnifiers and I was hoping they would help my accuracy at further distances since I'm 57 years old and my eyes aren't what they used to be. Thanks!

[@supermoon1430]

Scott Meyer have you turned your brightness down on the red dot because the brighter the redot is the bigger the dot gets your supposed to to have it as dim as you can reasonably see so that it’s a nice small point hope this helps

[@scottmeyer9196]

@@supermoon1430 Thanks I'll try that. Has anyone ever mounted the magnifier in front of the red dot? To magnify the target but not the dot.

[@supermoon1430]

Scott Meyer lol I have no idea go for it

[@TonyStark-jj5nm]

Is it weird to use a 3x micro magnifier in front of a 3x spitfire? Ha

[@StoutOfHeart]

I don't think a magnifier would work in front of a red dot. Do you mean behind? Oriented as shooter's eye to magnifier to red dot to target, as sight picture?

[@raulnoelnatividad902]

Spam caught my attention.

[@VortexNation]

😂😂😂

[@RagnarOdinson]

0:33 - 0:40 🤔... You said, "red dot or *holographic sight* ", and then said, "magnifies essentially everything, the *Reticle* , the image,..." My understanding is the reticle on a Holographic Sight is NOT magnified... 'Cause it is a Hologram. People really need to stop lumping Red Dots and Holographic Sights together when discussing Optics in any real detail. They are NOT the same thing.

[@VortexNation]

Functionally, red dots and holographics are indeed on two completely different planets in terms of how they actually work to produce a reticle - that is correct. That said, when you put a magnifier behind either a red dot or a holographic, the concept doesn't change one bit. Everything the magnifier is behind and that is in the magnifier's field of view will be magnified at the same rate. If it's a 3x magnifier, the image AND the reticle will both be magnified 3x on either sight. This is important to note because all too often people worry that their reticle will become larger when a magnifier is engaged, making them less precise because the reticle is "Covering more target" but that's not true because the image has also grown at the exact same rate, so the net effect is no change. When the magnifier is not engaged, then neither a red dot nor a hologram is magnified. Even though there are pro's and con's to each and even though they are built very differently, their applications and many of the accessories that work with them are almost identical

[@RagnarOdinson]

Vortex Nation Podcast To begin with I was in an overly nitpicking mood when I initially commented, sorry about that. Lol As I read your reply it makes perfect sense. But now I'm extremely curios as to why I've always heard differently from other (what most would consider to be) reputable sources. I'm intrigued, and now I must do some research. I very much appreciate the reply. Take it easy👍

[@VortexNation]

@@RagnarOdinson Hey it happens to the best of us! What you may be hearing from other sources is that the holographic sight doesn't have any lenses that you actually look through, whereas a red dot does have one parabolic lens that reflects the LED back to your eye that you actually look through. Because red dots have a lens there, there is some image distortion that can almost appear to be "Magnification" or a slight "Fish bowl" effect. The holographic sights have absolutely zero image distortion so the image that you see through the sight is perfectly as it should look. All of these things apply when the optic is not behind a magnifier, though, because once a magnifier comes into the picture, both will have image distortion. It's impossible not to have when lenses are in front of your eye.

[@RagnarOdinson]

@Vortex Nation Podcast Hey VNP! Thank you again for replying, and I appreciate the continued dialogue. I've been super busy and haven't had the time to do Sufficient (according to My personal standards) Research on the topic at hand. But... Lol 😜, here's where I'm at so far... I'm aware of the parabolic lens in the Red Dot Sight (or RDS for short) and its potential distortion, particularly in older or Lower End RDS models, I get all that stuff. That was never the primary focus of my initial point though. For the purposes of this discussion I'm talking about the Fundamental differences between the behavior of a RDS and something like an EOTech Holographic Weapon Sight (or HWS for short) in regards to how our eyes perceive the behavior of the Light that makes up the image we see in either Systems. Now obviously I'm not in the Optics manufacturing business, and I am not a Physicist or a Mechanical engineer... So as I mentioned earlier I still require more self-education on Holographic Tech in general, if only for my own edification, lol. Anyway, here a some of my thoughts. As you mentioned, a RDS generally uses a Parabolic Lens that adds a New Focal Plane, to reflect a Reticle shaped Light from a red LED to the user's eye, etc. On the other hand a HWS uses a Laser to project an (possibly 3 Dimensional) actual Holographic Light Image of a Reticle out to infinity (at least as it is Visually Perceived) and creates an overlay on a given target with NO additional Focal Plane at the Optic it self. This already has me wondering if there are any Technical Concepts from how the Lenses in a First Focal Plane scope VS a Second Focal Plane variant, that would be at all applicable or similar to how a HWS functions 🤔. Honestly, I don't know if there ANY similarities as far as that goes. Regardless, POOF!! Voodoo magic happens, and somehow when ya flip your Magnifier over to the HWS and look at your Sight Picture... The Target HAS been enlarged X number of times (from the shooter's perspective) while that EOTech Reticule has not only NOT been magnified, it Appears to be an even smaller, more precise aiming point on your Target than it was before?!? SOME of what I just said above could certainly be a bit of conjecture/logic based assumption, but just because I don't Yet know exactly How it works, doesn't mean I'm wrong 😉. And yeah, I did "bury the lead" as they say 😎😜. Please check out this short video someone archived. It's a slightly older video Produced by EOTech (aka L3 Technologies) That basically states EXACTLY the example I just spelled out, and Was originally referring to about Magnification Regarding a HWS! Here's the link, kzbin.info/www/bejne/jmS2f4qXgbCGqtU ,the specific magnifier feature info is at about 3:00 - 3:30 . I am DEFINITELY Not done looking into the topic, and I'm gonna see if I can set up some Real World Test to do this weekend. Sincerely, respectfully, Thank you again. Thanks for engaging in a Potentially very educational and constructive dialogue! CHEERS!🍻✌

[@VortexNation]

@@RagnarOdinson All RDS will have distortion whether they are really high end or more entry level - it's unavoidable as long as that lens is there. To your point, though, the more entry level models *may* have more distortion than the higher end, more expensive models... Not always... But sometimes it may be the case. Watching the video you linked here there is unfortunately some incorrect information there. We, too, have a holographic sight, so we are well familiar with how they function and can confirm that they don't defy the physics of putting a magnifier behind them, and actually, there was some incorrect information about what happens when a magnifier is put behind a regular red dot sight as well. Regardless of whether you're using a red dot sight or a holographic weapon sight with a magnifier, if the reticle is, for example, 2 MOA - that figure corresponds to the target's size in relation to the target. All of this is at "1x" obviously since we aren't using magnified optics, but when we put a magnifier behind the sight, that magnifier is now going to magnify anything in front of it, whether it is a hologram or a red LED being reflected back from inside a red dot. The image you see through the sight will be magnified (Let's just say it's 3x) 3x and make everything in the image appear to get 3x bigger (It doesn't actually bring anything "Closer") and the reticle inside the optic will also get 3x bigger. The net effect here is that the reticle and target are still the exact same size in relation to one another that they were when they were at 1x. The reticle will *appear* to have gotten bigger, but the image got bigger at the same exact rate, so there is no change. No more or less target is being covered by the reticle and that reticle from our example is still 2 MOA in size. Again, this is regardless of whether or not it is a holographic sight or a red dot. Red dots do not get bigger in relation to the target when a magnifier is put behind them, and holographic sight reticles do not magically get smaller in relation to the target when a magnifier is put behind them either. We actually have another podcast from way back towards our beginning all about our UH-1 which goes into detail about how holographic weapon sights actually work. You can check that one out - it's Episode 4.

[@oscarostolaza1]

With holographic sights such as eotechs the magnifier does not magnify the reticle like on the led or prism sights!

[@VortexNation]

Actually that's not true. There's a video circulating out there that says somehow holographic weapon sights go against physics and their reticle doesn't change at all when a magnifier is engaged. If that were the case, that would mean the image grows and somehow the reticle doesn't, so with a 3x magnifier, the reticle would actually be 1/3 the size it was before in relation to the image and thus, it would be at the wrong scale. What people want to hear is that the reticle doesn't get bigger in relation to the image when a magnifier is engaged. If the reticle is a 1 MOA dot, for example, they don't want it to become a bigger and less-precise 3 MOA dot when a magnifier is engaged. Luckily, this isn't the case for ANY optic whether it's a red dot, prism, holographic or anything else with a magnifier behind it. The reticle AND the image grow at the exact same rate. So, with a 3x magnifier, both things get 3x bigger, so the net effect is that they are still in the exact same relationship they were before the magnifier was engaged, so your reticle isn't taking up any more or less target than it was before. Hope this helps!

[@manuelporro-vizcarra184]

You better have a small moa dot in your optic as a 3x magnifier will triple the Size of your Moa dot

[@VortexNation]

Actually that's not true... Well it is... But that's not the whole story. The Magnifier magnifies the dot 3x, but it also magnifies the image 3x at the same exact time, so the size of the dot in relation to the image is exactly the same as it was when they were both 1x. No difference in how much the dot covers the target at all.

[@MatthewStout]

@@VortexNation Yep, just like an extender in photography...it is simply like zooming in with your mouse on a JPEG image on your computer.

[@calebsyswerda]

I'm fully aware of Mark Rober's engineering abilities and background, but I have no clue why he's sitting in on this; he seems completely wasted and superfluous to the conversation.

[@brainmeier3433]

I bet what he is thinking is to put the magnifier in front of the prism sight instead of behind 🤔