VW Audi Porsche 3.0L V6 diesel TDI Buyback - Throwing in the Towel

[@andrewnprice]

I am selling back my 2.0L Golf TDI, and bought a devalued Audi 3.0L A6 TDI as a replacement :). By the way that court settlement agreement does not relate to the 3.0L Audis or VWs. They are being negotiated separately, and no deal has been brokered on them yet. All indicators I have seen so far have said that they are easier to fix and no buyback will be necessary since they already have a DEF fluid system in place which most of the 2.0L TDIs did not have. My settlement amount was around $6,000 more than what I paid for my Golf TDI about 2.5 years ago, but I got a really low mileage one and a great deal at that.

[@DieselDrives]

+Andrew Price The 2.0 and 3.0 models still do not have an approved fix. The EPA won't review the 3.0 fix until December and the 3.0 court date is November 3, 2016. It's hard to imagine the court will approve a settlement based on a fix which has not been approved (and the first attempt has already been rejected). There is no remedy for owners under a settlement that does not include a buyback. What is the EPA cannot approve a fix over the next two years? The vehicles would be worthless come that time.

[@andrewnprice]

Diesel Review Yeah but it is an easier fix since the 3.0L does not have the same issue. The 3.0L would be fine except VW\Audi did not file the proper exemption paperwork. Most likely they will just modify DEF fluid delivery slightly and some of the software. They are just receiving extra scrutiny because of the 2.0L motors. The issue with those is that you have to retrofit in a DEF system somehow, the 3.0L have that so it is less of an issue. "VW claims the technology in question is used to heat various parts of the engine, including the system that injects urea, an ammonia-like chemical, into the exhaust to reduce NOx levels. The argument is that it can help hold down emissions when the engine is cold. Observers say it is not a surprise that regulators would be skeptical considering VW attempted to conceal pollution problems with its smaller diesel for at least seven years. And the maker this week revealed that an internal audit has uncovered “irregularities” in the emissions of 800,000 other vehicles sold around the world in recent years. For the first time, that includes some gas-powered models, as well as diesels." www.thedetroitbureau.com/2015/11/vw-porsche-audi-order-stop-sale-on-high-line-diesels/

[@DieselDrives]

+Andrew Price At this point, it's best not to believe anything and just leave it to the court. The original fix for the 3.0 was software. Then it was mentioned that a larger dpf/scr/catalytic converter would be required. The problem is that it's all one unit. I can't see how that can be replaced without removing the engine since it's right there against the firewall. Also, I don't see how they can achieve better results without also enlarging the turbo or increasing boost through better vnt mapping. The fuel system can be remapped, but the hardware is also at issue for a 3.0 fix. I drove a Range Rover Td6 with a diesel V6 turbo that puts out the same 240hp and a little less torque (420lb-ft). The Td6 was much more refined, quieter, and far more powerful and responsive than the 3.0 TDI in my A6. This leads me to believe that the transmission (Td6 also uses the ZF8) needs to be remapped as well, and I suspect the gearing will be wrong after the fix as well. Therefore, if the fix requires as much work as I suspect, it will take a dealer a very long time to execute (if even done properly). Therefore the court would be wise to allow for buybacks as a remedy.

[@andrewnprice]

Diesel Review All valid points, but I would be surprised if it takes that much to fix it. When the University of West Virginia did their tests they evaluated emissions from two 2.0L TDIs from VW (an older sportwagen without a DEF system and a newer Passat with), and a 3.0L (X5) diesel from BMW and the BMW passed in almost all tests. Now the X5 uses a 6 speed gearbox and not the 8 speed, but they are both ZF transmissions and I think since then BMW has maybe started using 8 speed in their newer diesel vehicles. If BMW could make it work, I think Audi can as well, but then again I am not sure about differences in gearing, boost levels, etc. (They tend to share a lot of components and suppliers though.) However, overall power output and design is fairly similar. Also bear in mind for Gen 3 2.0 TDI's (those with the newer emission systems like those in the Audis) a fix is already being tested, so clearly those vehicles are easier and closer to being addressed.

[@andrewnprice]

Diesel Review Thought I would share this. Apparently you are right and some emissions equipment will need to be swapped, but they are only talking about buying back the older Q7s at this point. Now that may be because their emissions related hardware is different from what is in our car, or it could be that it is just because their value is low enough to merit such a fix. Regardless, as of right now (according to reports) they don't seem to be planning to offer a buyback on the newer cars. www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emmissions-audi-idUSKCN12L1WD

[@paulp8399]

I have a 2014 A6 TDI with 48k miles which I love, but if the buyback amount is right, I'm leaning towards an S5 Sportback in early 2017!!

[@bosse641]

The GLI for sure. .....so nice. ...and cool.

[@delirium4327]

replaced my 2012 jetta tdi with a 2013 frs. one of the best moves I've ever made - like you said it basically a total 180 in terms of philosophy of use.

[@DieselDrives]

+KABAR432 Yup. Range matters. But these days, what's the point? Logically, what do we need the range for? Philosophically, whatever it is we're leaving, are we really going to escape? If it's just a commute, might as well haul ass and have fun.

[@froggydoes7092]

We've got until 2018 to decide. By then I hope you will have reviewed the Chevrolet Cruze hatchback diesel in both manual and automatic version.

[@zackariahgill1263]

Well dude i came across your channel because you drove an Audi but putting my unhealthy addiction aside, the Gulf gti you'll never regret buti think your an suv kinda person and the SQ5 is my dream suv, That's just me but remember you want to wake up, look out your window and smile becuse the first thing you see is not the engine i think you'll understand the car chooses you just feel for it

[@Trades46]

Sounds like you're giving up on diesels? If I lived in US right now I would too; EPA requirements are almost too stringent towards the oily stuff for it to be viable outside of pickups. I used to be a fan of diesels too until the TDI incident last year. After that having driven some pretty fast hybrids (the Q50S Hybrid & GS450h) I might be starting to see the benefits outside of its slow "Prius" association. Sounds like you got a pretty diverse list. If fuel economy no longer matters as much to you, the Q50 RS400 sounds like a great choice; I driven the 360hp Q50 Hybrid and was blown away how powerful it was so I can only imagine how the lighter & more powerful RS400 would be like.

[@corpnupe85]

Keep it! Don't downgrade unless you have to

[@bill8298]

Hey Bryan. Since I live in the snowy Colorado mountains at altitude ...I need the Audi with its awesome power and all wheel drive stability... they will have to pry my Q5 TDI keys from my "cold dead hands" to quote Charlton Heston ( psycho ) .... love this car soooo much.

[@joshuar4535]

I'd recommend the new 2017 5 series. You can get any kind of 5 series you want. Not sure if they're bringing the V6 diesel over here. You mentioned hybrids, there will be a phev 5 series available. The gas engines sound pretty nice as well. The 540i does 0-60 in 4.8 seconds which if I'm not mistaken is as quick as the Q50 Red Sport.

[@joshuar4535]

On the cheaper side; there's the Hyundai Elantra Sport. which is available with a manual.

[@DieselDrives]

+Joshua R That's where I draw the line. LOL! I drove the Honda Civic coupe manual for $19k and it was remarkably good.

[@DieselDrives]

+Joshua R If I do the buyback, I'd have to pay all the sales tax on the new car. In this case, a $70k 5-series is not in the cards. I'm going in at $55k max.

[@joshuar4535]

Diesel Review The Mazda 3 is worth checking out.

[@jerrytube13]

I wish we got our sales tax back and no mileage penalty. That's all I ask. You got a good list there, probably would go with the GLI in manual. I am replacing my TDI SportsWagen with a Subaru Forester 6 speed AWD for 22k. I need something that will plow through snow and as close to the buy back amount as possible. Maybe I will get another VW in the future, maybe the wagon with 4motion in 6 speed.

[@DieselDrives]

+Jarek Czarnecki I just drove the Golf Alltrack last week. A video will be posted soon. In short it drives like a Golf. No surprise other than the all wheel drive was nice to have.

[@andrewnprice]

Yeah my Mom is in that boat. They are trying to keep VW from benefiting from this, which while noble kind of screws us as consumers since we can't "trade-in" vehicles. I bought an A6 TDI to replace my Golf TDI, which works out well since they are easier to fix, most sources say no buyback will be necessary, and I got a Prestige trim model for $30k with taxes etc. included since they are currently devalued.

[@DieselDrives]

+Andrew Price I replaced my 2014 A6 TDI with a 2016 A6 TDI. The prices went up for new A6 models. The 2014 was $64k. The 2016 was $72k. Those are massive losses, and to be held captive on that based on fraud is what enrages most owners.

[@andrewnprice]

Diesel Review lol Don't I know it. Like I said, I have a 2.0TDI and so does my Mom. She is losing money on hers, but it is only 2k and she has owned it 3 years. But VW's hands are kind of tied by the court proceedings. By the way I do like your 2016 A6. Actually you were the one that convinced me to upgrade the MMI system to the new version. Picked up a used system with bluetooth problems, and am going to try and swap them out in the next month. I am betting that Audi recycled most of the internal components so it is just a matter of programming. Still have to buy an 8" screen, but yeah I am happy with my A6 so far. Given I paid 30k all in with taxes and plan on keeping it 10 years, it doesn't bother me too much about the value thing. I assume by then most of this will have been forgotten.

[@bill8298]

Hey Bryan. Since I live in the snowy Colorado mountains at altitude ...I need the Audi with its awesome power and all wheel drive stability... they will have to pry my Q5 TDI keys from my "cold dead hands" to quote psycho Charlton Heston .... love this car soooo much.

[@DieselDrives]

+Bill Willins I understand. But let's see if Audi has incentives on the Q7 for TDI owners. Fuel budget would increase. Then again the Range Rover Td6 would be a tempting Q5 TDI and Q7 TDI replacement on the resale side.

[@samabd8220]

infinity. do a review on it thought. I merely bought the tdi for gas milage its my commuter. they estimated 10 k for the money back. which is nothing. I don't want to keep it. I over looked the interior and the driver seat is uncomfortable. the trunk is amazing. I am considering the Chevy canyon or colorado. but I just read that ford might be coming out with Ranger diesels and may be F150 also the cruize and the equinox. but we are talking about late 2017 2018 and you have to add the wait time for the problems to show up and disappear. I am looking at the charger rt. but not sure.

[@DieselDrives]

+sam abd The Charger is on my "Best Cars" playlist on my New Car Spin channel. It makes sense to wait for things to hit the market. However, there are some great deals out there due to uncertainty in the economy.

[@ram64man]

Ok I think the standard mini maybe to small for you given what you have already so if you want to try a mini still look at the countryman s model or jcw version, as an everyday car why not the new bolt or the new a4 is quite good and should be in this form your side soon, the golf is a no no the limited models is because it's about to get a big refresh that will use the touch ev interior supposedly the Mazda c9 suv is quite good also nut it's no q7 and I love my friends tdi version

[@DieselDrives]

+ram64man Good points. There are several new vehicles on the horizon yet not available. There will be 50 new reveals at next month's LA Auto Show. In fact, the new A5 Sportback would be nice, but we won't get it for a year. I'd kick myself if I went for a Q7 before the SQ7 gets announced (if). The Q50 Red Sport is the only "new" model that will stay fresh for at least 24 months from now. New 5-series, A5, and Tiguan are on the way. I'd like to wait for those but not many owners can wait or be willing to pay full price.

[@ram64man]

I've been in the SQ7 already when my friend was test driving, and the pickup well lets say its a bit of a monster, the only thing that lets it down is the bulk of the actual car taming output, we have the A5 already here in europe and the refresh seems not a huge jump to be honest, the bmw will be good I think but don't forget the new mercedes E in 350 its everybit as good as an S, and the 9 speed really is really good my 2.0d is acually on order waiting jan delivery

[@DieselDrives]

+ram64man I'm driving a Q3 today. It's something to consider. But the A3 prestige is better bang for the money. I'm not sure I want to spend more than $55k almost everything at that price is still a 4-cylinder. Only the Q50 Red Sport delivers at that price. Going down to $40k gets cars with features but all different types of build quality. This isn't easy.

[@bobaye6292]

So now it is December 4 ,2017 and still no fix for the Audi 3.0 (2 PC) engine. They have a fix for the 2.1 and 2.2 Generation engines but still nothing for the 2 PC Generation engine. I'm guessing they have , according to court documents, until Dec 20, 2017 to come up with a fix? Any insight on what is going on at Audi? Looking for knowledgeable opinions on whether this will become a buyback vehicle or will Audi come up with a fix? I have a 2014 Q5 TDI.

[@DieselDrives]

+Bob Aye On October 23, 2017, a fix was approved for Gen2 3.0L V6 TDI SUV models. December 20, 2017 is the deadline for final approval by EPA and CARB or else the buyback Kicks in for A6, A7, and A8 Audi models.

[@bobaye6292]

My Q5 also is included in this bunch. The court documents refer to these models at the Gen 2 PC models. The Gen 2.1 and Gen 2.2 models have the approved fix. Even though the Q5 is an SUV it is not included in the fix. I guess the smaller size of the vehicle puts it in the PC (Passenger Car) group. Let's see what happens!

[@markryl-kuchar2373]

I still would be very but hurt that I couldn't have my diesel luxury car with decent power and great economy, you spent a small fortune on that 2016 Audi A6 TDi I would be very unpleased if Volkswagen didn't give me back what I paid for it a year ago, in your case, and now I can't even get anything like it. A buyback would definitely suck, I would rather have it "fixed" than bought back.

[@DieselDrives]

+Mark Ryl-Kuchar It's a lose-lose situation for 3.0L V6 TDI owners.

[@markryl-kuchar2373]

so true and it really sucks

[@gavincurtis]

The TDI is one of the most efficient engines out there... 45% vs 12-15% that existing gasoline engines have. The emissions are completely destroying the viability and benefits of the diesel engine. Perhaps they should restrict them in congested areas because of the odor, but open areas should be different.

[@mblake0420]

keep it.....hell with it

[@DieselDrives]

I have been keeping it for the past 12 months. I'd rather take the money and run... only to lose it on the next car (while paying sales taxes all over again). The problem is (and I don't know if it's the election) but everyone in Austin, TX has been an asshole lately. People are driving like dickheads. I don't want to risk the loss for someone else's enjoyment (out of their pure spite and jealousy, of course).

[@mblake0420]

Diesel Review keep it, u won't lose anything

[@26point2madness]

I am wondering about the sales tax. Is it possible it will also be refunded? If I buy a toaster at Walmart, then return it, I get my sales tax back. This seems like the same thing. I am returning a car back to the "store" that I purchased it from.

[@DieselDrives]

Nope. It's gone. This is why the buyback sucks. You lose the tax money you spent when you bought the TDI, and now you must pay more tax when you buy a replacement vehicle. In effect, there's only one party winning here, and it's not VW and it's not the owners.

[@mblake0420]

Diesel Review that's y I'm keeping mine....as a middle finger

[@markrussell24]

Jeep Grand Cherokee EcoDiesel?

[@hugog7034]

Get the infinity... Those 400hp will make you forget diesel😂

[@andrewnprice]

You mean the one with fly by wire steering? No thanks, I like to be actually be able to feel the road when I drive. Plus Nissan\Infinity reliability is not that great, and I am not a fan of the styling (personal preference there). I bought a used and nicely devalued A6 TDI to replace my Golf TDI.

[@DieselDrives]

+Andrew Price Fly by wire steering is optional. I haven't driven a single press car with that option.

[@andrewnprice]

Diesel Review Valid point, but press cars are not always indicative of what you see in the market. Regardless, I wouldn't touch anything that Carlos Ghosn, the lord of "frugal innovation" has had his hands in. You never know where they skimped on the engineering. That said, might not make a bad lease or something.

[@DieselDrives]

+Andrew Price Ghosn had nothing to do with the Q50 as much as Johan de Nysschen. Johan was at Audi. He jumped to Infiniti. Now he's at Cadillac, leaving a wake of new models at each company. blog.caranddriver.com/ex-audi-leader-johan-de-nysschen-leaves-chaos-at-infiniti-to-join-chaos-at-cadillac/

[@andrewnprice]

Diesel Review Then how did the previous versions of the Infinitis happen where they were so decontented? Also they share a lot of components with Nissan, which Ghosn has his hands all in. To me the Q60 is to Infinity as the Murano is Nissan. A lot of style and flash, but with questionable engineering backing it up. Also if you want to say it is Johan de Nysschen in charge, didn't he spend 20 years with Audi up until 2012 when our A6s came out? Given how his engineering choices are working out for you now, he may not be the best person to cite.... ;) Plus he was only with Infiniti for 2 years, and left because there were other corporate forces there preventing him from doing what he wanted with the brand. Tell any Cadillac or Audi engineer ‘build me a 560hp sports sedan’ and you have to reign them in. At Infiniti, it seems easier to push water uphill. More enthusiasm for ‘driver’s aids’, apparently, than ‘driver’s cars’, in some quarters, it would seem.” blog.caranddriver.com/johan-de-nysschen-trash-talks-infiniti-vp-for-canceling-q50-eau-rouge/

[@joehammond2586]

That sucks, maybe an S5?

[@DieselDrives]

+Joe Hammond Nope. The new one will be here next summer.

[@TheAndiBay]

BMW 535D ?

[@DieselDrives]

+TheAndiBay I would but there's a new 5-series on the way.

[@davidhall8712]

News flash suckers. Porsche tdi owners made whole and they keep the awesome Cayenne. 6yr CPO, 4 more years extended coverage and a $15,000 dollar check. See all the whiners on the roads in your GLIs

[@MarioDallaRiva]

BMW?

[@TheRTPatriot]

GTI less expensive than the audis and same power

[@DieselDrives]

+ChAbAr I would rather do a Golf R because I didn't like the GTI. I did a GLI s GTI video and didn't care for the GTI's loss of traction. The Golf R has awd (4Motion) and it's the same cost as an A3. The A3 fills the gap between the GTI and R.

[@TheRTPatriot]

yeah...if you go for all bells and whistles GTI better the R then. I meant the below $28k GTI.

[@EODHammer]

Maybach or Bentayga...............lol

[@keithbeef]

Infiniti for sure ;)