WaPo - The Rise of the Liberal Latter-day Saints and Bottom-Up Revelation

[@tdijon7]

The church has essentially always invited everyone. The problem a lot of people run into is that the gospel requires growth and change. You come as you are, and you become something more. There seems to be a growing body of latter-day Saints who would rather the church relax standards, or declare certain lifestyles as acceptable, in the name of Inclusivity.

[@CwicShow]

Christianity is moving toward "Teddy Bear Jesus." All is ok. A slap on the wrist and all else will be wonderful.

[@jamiem2444]

Tanner DeHaan, well said!

[@jillpalmer7069]

The great apostasy occurred when the Church , having lost the apostles, started the bottom up revelation making it popular to both the saints and others to attract more members in the name of inclusivity.

[@carlatamanczyk3891]

You are correct.... pretty disappointing and disheartening. Harvard and Berkley are similar in the loose LDS culture they contain on their campuses.

[@juxtaposition7904]

@@jillpalmer7069 I agree with you-it must have been a major part of it. I personally believe it was also a top down pressure once it became an “accepted” religion from the power elite of the faltering late Roman Empire. But as you say, it began as a supposed grass roots apostasy-much like we’re seeing today.

[@jmhatutube]

Full disclosure, my oldest is gay and turned 32 this year and came out as gay at 17. He has a common idea that he doesn't need a church to have a relationship with God. He's convinced that his good deeds will outweigh his bad ones and that he'll be fine in the end. His attitude is much more about not wanting to change, or thinking he needs to change because he's a good person, rather than him understanding, like the rest of us, need to change to become more like God. My mission president became a General Authority after his mission president service, and has spent a great deal of time counseling and helping me understand how to deal with my son. He reminded me of the New and Everlasting Covenant the power it will have in the next life. Now that doesn't mean some change in my son won't be required, it will be. Many, if not most, of the people I know who are in a situation like mine having an LGBTQ+ child, take issue with the Proclamation of the Family. Many have told me that they don't feel it is doctrine and don't give it the credit it deserves. It is doctrine and as long as the Church operates as intended, it will always be doctrine. Ever since a co-worker asked me how I would deal with a gay child, a question asked long before needing to deal with it, I told my co-worker I would love him like my other children; and I have. My mission president told me that I'm required to love him, and that's about it. So me and my wife always have. Even when I see this happen in another church, particularly the Catholic church, I'm rather taken aback wondering why congregants see the bottom-up approach as so necessary whey they have a Pope that is supposed to be a representative of God. It baffles me more with the LDS church, our church, when it is understood that we have apostles and prophets guiding the church under the direction of the Savior who is at the head. Women have been trying obtain priesthood ordination for a very long time. I see this issue having a similar outcome, obviously. I've decided to follow God, not social trends. So while I love and support my gay son as much as I can, I'm a disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ, and that comes first.

[@CwicShow]

Thanks for your words.

[@segolily76]

wow..thanks for your courage and insight, i admire you for your strenth and for handling this sensitive issue so christ like.may god bless you

[@stardustgirl2904]

I'm thankful you have chosen to put your trust in God, and love your son ! When we love our children, we don't pretend they're making the right choices, when they aren't! It's are job, though difficult at times, to guide our children to the celestial kingdom! These are the last days and Satan is a Master of confusion and deception , and he's very cunning! A long time ago my aunt started hanging around with the wrong crowd at school. She started playing with the Quija board. Her Mom had no idea! Then as time passed she came out as gay! Her Mother tried very hard to help her daughter. Showing her love and kindness at all times! Year's passed and she completely changed. We watched her cut all her hair off, get piercings and become toxic! It was as if she had evil demons in her! She fought with everyone including all her girlfriends, and the police we're called in her several times! If being gay made her happy she wasn't showing it! Being in the gay lifestyle, turned her into someone the family never knew. As soon as the government made gender reassignment surgery available, she chose to mutilate her body ❗ When you look into her eyes, she's absolutely soulless, when she speaks, she sounds like a cakiling old witch. She's very untrustworthy, and beyond anyone's help at this point! Her Mother passed away, but before she did, she asked me to do her endowment for her,I told her I would if I could, but I can't because she had the surgery! Mankind is very foolish to actually believe they can change, what God has created! All of this gay ,stuff is on trend, and if there are similar things they may have in common they think there gay. But deep down they sometimes just have problems! Our family has gone through a lot of pain and suffering, from this experience! It's not easy to see evil engolf a loved one, and completely take them over! When we choose to live by God's commandments, we have the spirit of God with us, when we don't live God's way, we don't have the spirit to help us with decernment! 🙏🏻💜I pray God will strengthen you, and you can be strengthened by attending the Temple often. I see many Miracles in the house of the Lord, as a Temple worker.

[@MrOakgoat]

I am in the same boat brother, and have a 26 year old gay son. You took the words out of my mouth.

[@wildlyoptimistic1352]

@@theatomicmom You have to appreciate the plan of salvation that accommodates all. There is another kingdom in heaven for all those who are good but not willing to live up to a celestial law. It may be sad for us that our kids won't be with us in the celestial kingdom (assuming we get there) but the terrestrial kingdom isn't so bad and may well be all they want. My son isn't gay, but he and his wife have gone inactive. It may well be that they end up in the terrestrial kingdom as well. I have to hope they don't end up in the telestial kingdom. It may be a really nice place but spending the rest of eternity with all the other murderers, thieves, and anarchists is my idea of Hell.

[@sandragibson7949]

Along time ago I had an issue with God over some matter. I do not specifically remember my complaint but clearly remember His reply. In a crystal clear thought I heard, “You do not tell me what to do.” I’ve not forgotten that in over 50 years. And I was probably near 30 when I heard it. I will follow the prophet who also does not tell God what to do.

[@CwicShow]

Good advice!

[@jgclarke0352]

The general conference talk on "which way do you face" was so good.

[@jameseverett4976]

What we need are medical schools that let students decide what they should learn, and what they'd rather not, and how long it should take to get a degree. Same with any other trade or business schools. While we're at it, since this is a "free" country, we should each get to decide what laws we want to obey, and if we want to pay taxes, and how much. I think that would be so much better, don't you? In fact I just decided the other day that I should get 3/4 of Bill Gates money, and that I'm being generous in leaving him 1/3. While I'm waiting for that, I'm going to have the days be 6 hours longer, so I can get more done. I'm also designing a new church where you get to be God, and assign people to worship you, and be prophets and stuff like that. This new style of church doesn't need any members of course, because, like, what would be the point? Everybody could just either be God, or be the president of the United states, or whatever. Problem solved, eh? This generation has finally figured out everything our ancestors could not. And what a world it's going to be! Life was so simple all this time, and yet previous generations just needlessly made it hard on purpose. We're gonna live SMART now, though!

[@reelikab1185]

It used to bother me when the church put out that it's growing yet right and left I could see people everywhere leave the church. Now I know that it is growing. It is growing in faith and obedience and that is invisible to the physical eyes. This is the church of a living God. God does not need millions of fear-weather people to gather themselves under His umbrella to tell Him how His church is to be lead. He knows the hearts and minds of His people. Good luck twisting the words of the prophet. He is mortal man first and if he tried to lead His people stray, God himself would remove him. The church is not here to keep the laymen happy and feeling good. For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord. “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8-9

[@reelikab1185]

Also, if people demand, and prophet follows - the members deserve the consequences to follow. There will come a day when the members will be praying day and night so there's a reason for that. But no gay marriage will be performed inside the temple. I couldn't imagine a bigger slap on God's face and the revenge that would follow.

[@cougfan82]

@@reelikab1185 Sometimes if people push and push for something, God may "change his mind" and give in. The Martin Harris incident with the manuscript comes to mind. He wouldn't accept the "no" revelation for what he was wanting to do so he kept pressing Joseph to "pray harder" and keep asking until finally the Lord said: fine, ok. Doesn't mean the Lord changes his mind and will, just that He sometimes might say, "fine, have it your way" and let the people learn the hard way and reap the consequences of their actions. Then He provides a solution or backup plan for those who are willing to acknowledge they were wrong, become humble, and repentant.

[@jodie672]

@@cougfan82 The “Martin Harris incident” was not a doctrine or law of God that Joseph was “pushing” against. That was a totally different scenario to what is being pushed against here in this discussion; God’s laws! We cannot compare the two situations, they are not the same thing.

[@stardustgirl2904]

I'm a Temple worker, and so thankful to be in God's house each week! It lifts me up to see the many miracles that take place in the Temple!

[@germanslice]

@@cougfan82 We saw that when the Lord listened to to the complaining Israelites he led out of Egypt who started lusting after Egypt's food, so the Lord sent a flock of birds after much murmuring and complaining to Moses. The people made demands to Moses and the Lord Saying We are sick and tired of eating this same manna we want Egypt's Food...So soon as the people caught and ate the birds, the Lord smote them with a plague.

[@dalecash2236]

When the Family proclamation came out, it appeared to be reactionary. Looking back years later it's completely obvious that it was given by the Lord preemptively to help members stay true to family standards amidst what has been a long and steady societal shift away from family values.

[@thomasmaughan4798]

"When the Family proclamation came out, it appeared to be reactionary." Indeed it is, and was. So was the proclamation ending polygamy. For that matter, the Book of Mormon is reactionary! When the people are ready, the revelation comes. So, essentially all revelation is by nature and necessity "reactionary" or a reaction to current events.

[@dalecash2236]

@@thomasmaughan4798 Certainly, God respects the agency of His prophets, and waits for them to ask for direction. This generally happens when current events lead them to ask for clarification. What I find amazing about the Family Proclamation is how it becomes more relevant as an anchor of truth as the world drifts further away every passing day. That aspect of it was certainly not reactionary.

[@thomasmaughan4798]

@@dalecash2236 "That aspect of it was certainly not reactionary." In a sense, yes, it is a reaction to the drifting of society but it is *also* looking forward to so much drift that it becomes necessary to state what seems obvious. In a youtube comment I often play "Judo arguing" where I will agree with a premise where the script calls for disagreement. Then you are playing into someone else's script. But by agreeing, even if it is fuzzy or obviously misrepresented, now the opponent is playing into my script. So someone *accuses* the prophets of being reactionary; sure, why not. What matters is whether God is ultimately the captain of this ship. Captains are reactionary; failing to react to iceberg sank the Titanic! The Word of Wisdom is a reaction to the somewhat disgusting scene in school of the prophets; men chewing tobacco and spitting all over the place.

[@BettyHorn]

This whole issue doesn't take into consideration is God Himself. We cannot change God. He sets the bar. Not men, not leadership, not even the prophet. We are to meet God's standard. He is the One who sent His Son so we could overcome the world. If we don't meet that, it's on us. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is NOT a political entity. God is not reactionary. We don't make the rules.

[@RichardChappell1]

Unfortunately, we have an example of the philosophy that is prevailing in the liberal communities - Korihor. They focus on bottom-up change because they don't really believe in God - or their belief is essentially a Santa Claus God that exists merely to dole out blessings on demand without asking anything in return.

[@BarbieHitsBack]

Exactly right. God is truth and truth is not changeable, it is set in stone. As a woman from Africa, Greg is completely right in saying the church is growing exponentially on the continent and I would add it is mostly a conservative people living in Africa and just the thought of bottom up revelation is laughable.

[@silbannacusofoxyrhynchus6096]

God established eternal laws for us to become like him.

[@miketemple7686]

Sis. Horn, there in lies a clue. With the thought that these actions lead to some sort of “ground swell revelation” shows a lack of testimony that Heavenly Father is the head of His church.

[@BettyHorn]

@@miketemple7686 yes. My point exactly. Thank you.

[@karylmorgan7320]

Thank you. I'm from the East Coast. I watched over the past 20 or more years as mainstream Protestant churches such as Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Methodists, Catholics, and other denominations changed their doctrine to support culture: gay ministers, gay marriage, supporting abortion, sex before marriage, etc. I never really thought I would see the day when The Church Of Jesus Christ would face this kind of demand for man to change doctrine instead of waiting patiently for God to do so. 2. If the law of Chastity changes for them is it going to change for single heterosexuals to have pre marital sex and what about married people? Will adultery be considered less serious if someone is unhappy and makes an unfortunate decision??? Why would any member think the law of Chastity or Proclamation on the Family should change for man's desires instead remaining faithful and obeying God's laws. Discipline is part of obedience, isn't it? We are taught to trust in God not man. 3. Men will leave the church as they always have and there are plenty of churches that will satisfy their sexual desires. Isn't there prophecy that few will remain faithful in end days? 4. I remember William Bennett in church history, the doctor who joined church and manipulated a friendship with Joseph and became an apostle. He then committed adultery with female members by telling them Joseph said it was okay. He was excommunicated and then turned on Joseph and participated in trying to assassinate Joseph. He wanted his own way and his own power. Isn't that what this is about? 5. I am older church member who is tired of hearing about how "the church needs to change." We give too much attention to these issues. There are too many other issues that need attention. Millions of children, CHILDREN! are trafficked for sex and are tortured and hurt for life if they survive and over 60,000,000 babies have been aborted in pain and suffering. I'm tired of hearing the whining from people who care more about their sex lives than real issues. Yes we all need to be charitable to each other and lose our prejudices and work together but really... What happened to count your blessings 5. Last, we are supposed to multiply and replenish the earth by having children so if Heavenly Father intended gay marriage wouldnt we all have all the parts to do so in marriage.

[@conkjavier]

John C Bennett was the infamous doctor, and he did have positions of authority in Nauvoo, but he was not an apostle. William Bennett was born in 1910 and he was an apostle.

[@karylmorgan7320]

Thanks I couldn't remember if it was John or William but not sure he wasn't a leader.

[@jodie672]

@Karyl Morgan, Brilliant response! 👏🏻 one of the best I have read on this issue, agree wholeheartedly! 🙌

[@33sylvia33]

I have to agree with you. We’ll said.

[@33sylvia33]

@@karylmorgan7320 John C Bennett was called to be the Assistant President to the Church. He was also the mayor of Nauvoo.

[@gms5089]

“…Nevertheless, there were many among them who began to be proud, and began to contend warmly with their adversaries, even unto blows; yea, they would smite one another with their fists…and it was a cause of much affliction to the church; yea, it was the cause of much trial with the church. For the hearts of many were hardened, and their names were blotted out, that they were remembered no more among the people of God. And also many withdrew themselves from among them. Now this was a great trial to those that did stand fast in the faith; nevertheless, they were steadfast and immovable in keeping the commandments of God, and they bore with patience the persecution which was heaped upon them…” Was sad then, is sad today…but not new to the church of Jesus Christ

[@allyor5716]

True!, What scripture is this?

[@gms5089]

@@allyor5716 Alma 1:22-25

[@JessicaOrban3606]

Too true

[@confusedwhynot]

The Gospel and Doctrine of Christ is just that and will never change. We as members must choose to follow the Savior's plan or not. The Gospel and Doctrine isn't set by the members. The church leadership should not make the decisions based on society PERIOD. Truth is truth and Christ leads this church. The Priesthood issue in 1978 and the Polygamy (PLURAL MARRIAGE) years ago is a separate issue. What is the LDS mold? I don't think anyone in the church fits a mold as defined by this young man. We are all individuals that have to make our way in life and choose God's plan or follow our own carnal man. I choose to follow the plan and strive every day to do better. We pretty much decide our own exaltation. We choose a celestial kingdom or a lesser degree. By our actions and open defiance of God. BOTTOM UP IS NOT REVELATION! GREAT AND SPACIOUS BUILDING!! People who think the have more knowledge from God need to check themselves. This General Conference is going to be interesting based on all that is happening in the world. I weep for the souls of those who believe that the Lord should change to fit their carnal desires.

[@germanslice]

Bottom up revelation is the first time I ever heard of it, and its nonsense. We are told to follow the prophet, not modify the prophet.

[@lancebroshar5818]

This is not my church. This is not your church. It's the Lord's church. If any one doesn't like the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, then by all means find a church that better suites your needs. Tolerance is a two way street. I stand with the Lord's Prophet Russell M Nelson and the Brethren.

[@Goldiebear63]

Perfectly said!

[@lancebroshar5818]

Thank you 😊

[@fiddlermom9629]

Interesting how this comes right before General Conference! Thank you for your solid position on the Gospel.

[@CwicShow]

Of course!

[@empowermybirth7917]

Great thoughts man. Love your stuff. The way I have always looked at it is, the church doesn't change certain policies because the world is changing. But rather, the Lord is helping change the heart of the people, so that the world will change, and so the policies can in turn also change. The only revelation that comes from the bottom is personal revelation. You can not receive revelation for someone else, or everyone else. Only the prophet has that ability. Policies change, doctrine does not! The church isn't perfect, because it is run by imperfect people, but the gospel is perfect, it is run by God.

[@kaxenty8677]

I just want to say that I love your channel! You have such a level head during these crazy times! Thank you fo all the time and research you put into your topics and for not being swayed by popular opinions.

[@CwicShow]

Glad you enjoy it!

[@benb5512]

The law of chastity is an eternal principle; the Church would never change the view and stance on the law of chastity as it would be a mockery of eternal truth.

[@michaelangeloevans2722]

the church has changed its stance on the law of chastity several times

[@kz6fittycent]

@@michaelangeloevans2722 well now you have to substantiate this claim.

[@geoffturley3242]

@@michaelangeloevans2722 references please

[@franciegwin]

@@kz6fittycent When did chastity change in the church?????

[@michaelangeloevans2722]

@@kz6fittycent ​ @Geoff Turley the introduction of the practice of polygamy (1840's) the introduction of the practice of polyandry (1840's) the change of the public stance to openly supporting polygamy (1850's) the manifesto on polygamy (1890) church stops promoting polygamy the "2nd manifesto" (1904) church now prohibits polygamy the garment is changed to shorter sleeves and legs (1970's) the church banned oral sex in marriage (1980's)

[@fiddlermom9629]

I think we all need to focus on the name of the Church: The Church of JESUS CHRIST. The leaders don’t determine doctrine! Also, remember that in the Book of Mormon, a pattern for our day, right before Christ came, the Church broke up. This is prophesied!

[@mrmod123]

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU for addressing this!!! To me this is the elephant in the room that needs to be addressed!!! We used to and you sort of addressed it talking about Elder Packer, President Smith, Elder McConkie and the like. I miss the old guard and long for another President Benson. It feels like we have swept them away but I know there’s still a huge number that think like I do. I hate that culture seems to dictate policy at times. This really isn’t anything new. It’s the kingmen vs the freemen and I just wish we would be more bold like we used to be.

[@stardustgirl2904]

To many people are choosing to be a part of the world 🌍 and follow Satan's plan ! They want desperately to change the gospel to their every whim! They may feel that life is easier, not to follow God, but I assure you, it isn't! I married into a family that didn't keep their marriage vows, for whatever reason! My husband and I have married,for love in the Temple! Now everyone who cheated in their marriages wants what we have! And I'm afraid now that they are up in age now, and they will die alone. My heart 💔 breaks for them, because I want them to be happy! I'm just thankful they have turned to God now! Miracles can happen, maybe love will find them who knows! 🙏🏻💜🙏🏻 Doing God's will, always has a better outcome!

[@joscelynpease6656]

​@@stardustgirl2904 So true, we reap what we sow, eventually.

[@horsewithnoname8795]

I totally agree with you. I am old school, for me the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ is unchangeable and cannot conform to men's vain wants and designed, it is men who have to change.

[@b1of4bs]

Thank you, thank you! I'm grateful to you and I'm grateful to Brother Holland for going into the Lyon's den and saying what needed to be said. 👍 Stay strong!

[@markwilde2391]

I've tried dictating what I believe doctrine ought to be to Heavenly Father a few times. Since it is His doctrine, I lost everytime. Thanks for your channel.

[@brendaorozco1203]

I’ve tried that a few times too! Doesn’t work too well does it?

[@lynncannon7484]

The basic doctrinal laws of the gospel do not change, It's simply what the progressive members and friends need to understand.

[@bobwilkinson1217]

I hate the term progressive. I certainly know what you mean, but that term has been hijacked by the radical left. Their direction is definitely not progressive (as in progress) -- it is regressive, as in anarchy and licentiousness.

[@madvinmryk]

Yes words have specific meanings in most cases. And to change their meanings only causes confusion not unlike the Tower of Babel did.

[@carymorris3152]

There is a policy and there is doctrine , doctrine is eternal and does not change it’s really irritating to hear people say if the leader ship doesn’t change this or that I’m leaving the church. it’s not up to them to change things you’re basically saying if the Lord doesn’t change his mind I’m leaving the church because He is the leader of the church The Prophet is the mouthpiece for the Lord so basically you’re telling the Lord he needs to change his ways or I’m leaving the church. that’s apostasy. Go find a church that fits your ways because Doctrines aren’t changing.

[@germanslice]

This whole thing all started because a few people in the church a few therapists got upset with the church's no masterbation policy regarding entrance into the temple and then it went from there into getting upset over same sex marriages.....

[@Lifeisgood1883]

Well said.

[@germanslice]

@@Lifeisgood1883 That's why they went into apostasy because they couldn't accept the existing standards in the church on chastity.

[@jodie672]

Cary Morris, Well said!! 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

[@jomaralbalate1305]

Absolutely right..

[@julievanwauwe]

Thank you brother for your clear and respectful position. I understand people who cannot live their natural desires of intimacy. As a single person, I also live the law of chastity and know how much faith it takes to remain faithful. In my experience it is still better to obey our Holy Father. And yes, sometimes it is easier to reflect your pains or shortcomings and rebel. There are also few counselors who support the law of chastity so .... where should people put their grievances? They collide with a lot of misunderstanding and the natural man makes himself feel stronger and stronger until they are convinced that they are right. Love and a listening ear is often not enough. Faith and trust in our dear Father has often long since been weakened. It's a two-way street for these people. The iron rod quickly becomes too slippery and the fog often thickens and darkens. My daughter is going the same way and I can only pray, hope and keep my love for her strong. I know that our Savior makes straight what is now broken or crooked on the earth. Greetings from Belgium

[@janecollette9504]

Bottom up change is what is happening in so many churches today. Catholic Church, The church of England, Southern Baptist, and so many others. Question is, who leads the Church? Man or Christ. We shall see. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

[@judithrasmussem2922]

Thank you for a very clearly presented and thoughtful message, once again! Our highest aspiration in the church, as I understand it, is consecration. Consecration is complete surrender of our will to God’s will. According to Neil Maxwell it is, “the only complete surrender that is also total victory.” Victory over self. Victory over the flesh. Victory over pride. Victory over the world and its latest version of “progress”.Surrender to God doesn’t sound like “bottom up “ to me. This appears to me to be the same old battle: pride vs. humility; Satan vs. our Savior, who submitted his will entirely to His Father that we might live. We need to remember Him, His example, and recognize who is controlling the narrative of this newest version of the same old lies.

[@TypeAndShadow]

Pushing the envelope is nothing new, nor is it even revolutionary. Civilizations throughout history have pushed the norms, boundaries, rules and customs of their society to bring about mass acceptance of immorality. On the other hand, what is truly revolutionary is the practice of maintaining God's laws; of not wavering to popular opinion. The arrogance of man lies in the false assumption that he can learn something that God does not yet know. We don't need more activism. We need more humility. We don't need more politics. We need more understanding of Gospel principles.

[@CwicShow]

Good words!

[@BarbieHitsBack]

Well said!

[@zissler1]

Satan was the first radical.

[@digdudemoose2536]

Exactly, expressed simply & beautifully. Thank you.

[@reagan9213]

I thought of “tradition” from fiddler on the roof since that is what kept many Jews continuing their religious practices no matter how unpopular, but I would say this is about “doctrine”

[@Cosmonautarmchair]

Great coverage. How is it that so many in Mormon Studies take a Sectarian and Secular approach? But he is right. It is about power. Priesthood power is the name of the game and it will always come from the top down. It is not the Brethren's Church. It's not Joe Mormon's Church. It's Christ's church.

[@thelefthandedshooter5760]

My question is always this: If the Church changed their stance on LGBQT tomorrow (or insert your issue here), would you be a devout church attending member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? I think a lot of these issues is an excuse and no matter what it wouldn’t make them come and be a child of God.

[@germanslice]

Zion has to be built on the principles of the Celestial Kingdom, that's why same sex marriage is not allowed in Zion because its not a Celestial Principle of God. The church has taught that same sex attraction only exists here in this mortal life in this fallen world, it does not exist in the eternities. So that's why the church won't allow same sex temple sealings.

[@coho33]

Well done: very thought provoking . I’m on the side of historical prophets .

[@germanslice]

If same sex marriage was allowed in the temple then it would cause confusion in the ranks of the army of the Lord. Zion was supposed to be built up on the celestial principles of God not on the principles of the world. Same sex relationships is the worship of the body, the flesh. its not the worship of God. that's why God sees it as an unholy union that he won't allow in to be practiced in the temple. The ruler of this universe dosen't see it as being holy. The leaders can't make changes in the church just because some protesting members rise up and demand for change unless God commands his prophet to make changes. The world says to rebel, but God says to obey. Those that criticize and murmur and demand for church leaders to change the church or say if the leaders won't make the changes they want then the leaders are fallen prophets don't realize they have got the Spirit of Babylon in them. which is the spirit of rebellion. The Spirit of babylon is found in the music of the world.

[@sherigraham3873]

@@germanslice I'm in agreement with what you have said. Succinctly put. Thankyou.

[@oldmetro]

No, you're right, they would just find another reason or cause that would excuse their presence.

[@smcarnold]

I think it is predictable that the person who wrote this article badly represented Elder Holland's talk and his message to the faculty. There is definitely an increase in Progressive Mormons (Progmo's) in the Church. Benjamin Park and his wife were in my ward for a few years prior to them moving to Texas. They both are very Progressive far left folks. They are very much Social justice warrior types and for example are very much into the turn Texas blue movement. When I first met Ben he struck me as a sort of philosopher academic kind of member of the Church. He definitely holds religious positions that would allow same sex marriages in temples and would radically alter the law of chastity if he could. I even heard him talk of his belief that Progressive Left values should merge with the core of LDS teachings and organization. I shudder at the thought that the LDS church would capitulate to these radical positions. My oldest daughter had his wife as one of her Young Women leaders. My daughter complained to us about the things she would teach and say about the Church. A lot of that was not faith promoting and called certain Church leaders racists and the Church in general. The Bishop in my Ward was informed of these things on various occasions. I hope that those of this ilk never have positions of power and authority over the church. Also don't get me wrong I am not saying there is not room for left wing members but some of their positions are so radical that if they got their way The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints would be unrecognizable.

[@tomasina10]

My son encountered one such far left EQP and We lost him to false doctrine . He was a RM and deeply devoted to the Gospel until this EQP convinced him the Church needed to “change “ . Members with these beliefs should NOT be called to these positions if they insist on teaching them in classes at Church . My son went on to completely leave the Church after the teachings of this “Brother “ . I pray daily he will return .

[@edhuhtala8457]

@@tomasina10 I'm so sorry to hear this, I believe leaders like this that steer members of the church away are going to have a hard reckoning to deal with on judgment day. I hope your son returns, I'll pray for him as well.

[@thomasmaughan4798]

This is a big reason, in my opinion, that Teaching in the Savior's Way emphasizes "Teach the Doctrine". Only doctrine, not the philosophies of men (or women). People can certainly have opinions and philosophies, but do not teach false doctrine or personal opinion from any pulpit even a classroom pulpit.

[@jordan-xe2yb]

Horrible

[@susanwilliams7029]

This is the church of 'Jesus Christ'. All policy comes from Him. He wields the control. Not once did Benjamin Park address the fact that the Savior is the leader of this church. Any and all reforms or changes in policy must come directly from Him.

[@mysikind8076]

Exactly.

[@jacbox3889]

We were discussing same sex relationships. The young LDS mother that I was talking with told me that all people should be able to marry and love who ever they want. I asked her if my husband (at the time) should be able to marry the person he was having an a fair with. She didn't think that would be right, but I said they think they love each other. There are laws to the Law of Chasity.

[@joscelynpease6656]

Exactly!

[@mahonri69]

The problem is the tremendous indoctrination the people/young members have in the world we must love every body, love and sex are different things. the problem is to understand our eternal nature,

[@robertandersen6387]

As an inquisitive person, I love your question. Those who don’t want to change stop asking questions or decide that those who ask questions are bigoted or intolerant. The LGBQ community are always talking about “love” as if they understand it better than everybody else, including God.

[@joscelynpease6656]

Thank you! This is such a relief to hear sound doctrine articulated so well. The problem with the liberal and bottom up revelation trend is definitely as they attempt to join the Church and then change it. It would be like someone coming to your house and redecorating to their taste or bringing in behaviors that are not righteous and requiring everyone to engage in those behaviors. I have had to see this in action and it was not pretty to say the least, it created so much division and contention in our Ward.

[@benlomond8055]

Unfortunately that's the adversaries way divide and conquer

[@alisonbock8527]

I certainly haven't seen bottom-up revelation in 60 years in the church. Yes, there are changes in focus from time to time, thinking of no pornography talks decades ago. I guess I shouldn't be surprised at the different lenses members look at the church through. I hope I have taught my family well enough to deal with societal changes and be grounded in the truth. Many blessings.

[@mdbryan9525]

So blacks getting priesthood, the abolition of polygamy, the doing away of the PAY LAY ALE in the temple ceremony were all top down? Perhaps but you can bet pressure from society (at least in the case of the blacks and the polygamy) played a big big part.

[@mdbryan9525]

My dad who was an atheist predicted that the church would let blacks hold the “priesthood “ 6 months before the “prophet “ had the “revelation “. “Too much pressure from society “ is what he said.

[@edwardgabriel5281]

@@mdbryan9525 I fell to my knees in prayer to determine if the Church, indeed, succumbed to worldly pressure. I can tell you that the revelation did come from God.

[@mdbryan9525]

@@edwardgabriel5281 You’re mistaken sir. You want it to be revelation. You have a lot invested in the church. Your time your money and your family. You’re not alone. The whole church has been duped. Were it not so, the church would be consistent with the Bible. It is sometimes. It definitely isn’t in others. When Jesus said that “heaven and earth shall pass away but my words shall never pass away “. He didn’t say that my words will pass away but will be restored. Pray about that.

[@edwardgabriel5281]

@@mdbryan9525 You can't argue with success. I'm 95, a great great grandfather with a huge family, all church members (except one Jew) and are all good, happy, successful people. I should be leaving this earth one day soon, the happiest camper you ever met. His words never passed away. People changed the doctrine they originally established. Tell me what you know about the Holy Ghost?

[@RobertThorntonWriter]

President Harold B. Lee : There are those in the Church who speak of themselves as liberals who, as one of our former presidents has said, “read by the lamp of their own conceit.” (Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine [Deseret Book Co., 1939], p. 373.) One time I asked one of our Church educational leaders how he would define a liberal in the Church. He answered in one sentence: “A liberal in the Church is merely one who does not have a testimony.” Dr. John A. Widtsoe, former member of the Quorum of the Twelve and an eminent educator, made a statement relative to this word liberal as it applied to those in the Church. This is what he said: “The self-called liberal [in the Church] is usually one who has broken with the fundamental principles or guiding philosophy of the group to which he belongs. … He claims membership in an organization but does not believe in its basic concepts; and sets out to reform it by changing its foundations. … “It is folly to speak of a liberal religion, if that religion claims that it rests upon unchanging truth.” And then Dr. Widtsoe concludes his statement with this: “It is well to beware of people who go about proclaiming that they are or their churches are liberal. The probabilities are that the structure of their faith is built on sand and will not withstand the storms of truth.” (“Evidences and Reconciliations,” Improvement Era, vol. 44 [1941], p. 609.)

[@deborahannwilson2670]

You are absolutely right when you say that the Church would lose a lot of people if they became more liberal. It has happened to all the churches that went liberal: Lutheran, Episcopal to name two.

[@Jsmith2024]

Thank you. This is brilliant.

[@paulblack1799]

Heavenly Father has a long history of letting us live with the consequences of our own actions and desires, even allowing ancient Israel to reject him and his prophets in favor of a king (a bottom up policy change if ever there was one.) Because of this I feel it is critical (sorry for using that word, Gregg 😁) to foster the Spirit that our actions and desires will be aligned with what God sees as our greatest good. The choices are always ours but God will give us according to the desires of our hearts. Peace.

[@CwicShow]

😄

[@bobwilkinson1217]

The only bottom-up effect might be the prayers of the Saints to the Lord who then hears those prayers and inspires his Prophet to change policies, such as the Priesthood available to all worthy males. Many of us prayed long and hard for that 1978 revelation to President Kimball.

[@michaelpeterson6174]

And in the case of the Priesthood restriction change, it had long been prophesied that it would happen in the future, and everyone knew that was God's true doctrine - and so the practice had to ultimately change, and it did. In this case we know darn well (Section 132 and much of the scriptures) that God intended eternal marriage and the exaltation of the family to be an eternal marriage of a man and a woman. That cannot change, or to use the language of prophets: "God would cease to be God."

[@shirw]

Seems like many of these points were addressed in Sat morning session... put a big smile on my face!

[@danite620]

It seems we just covered something like this in Sunday school yesterday . The Jews decided that they wanted a king . Samuel told them that idea wasn't to good , and what life would be like . They insisted they wanted a king . God let them have one . We all know how that turned out . I became a member of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints because it was not like all the rest . I will stick with our profit , the first presidency and the Quaram of the 12 . If I didn't intend to follow our church doctrine, I would join one of these mega non denominational groups.

[@jimoray3]

Strait is the Gate and Narrow the Way, and few there be that find it….sad indeed. It’s amazing to me that we, the 2/3rds who kept their first estate succumb so easily to Satans strategy of tearing down the Family. Agency and Faith are really harder than we thought I’m sure.

[@DavidAnderson0666]

Virtually ALL revelation to the Prophet has come by him asking questions. We are reading all about that in Come Follow Me. Joseph set the pattern all Latter-Day Prophets have followed. The culture has led to those questions. Would Joseph have gone to the grove if he hadn't had a lot of confusion from the many religious leaders and discussion in his community? We should ask questions, that is how we learn, but we don't dictate to the prophet what changes. It is his role to ask God for direction, when needed. We have seen a LOT of that during President Nelson's tenure. He is constantly communicating with God. We should ask questions, that is how we learn, but don't think because the world follows a new direction, we will follow suit. Let's hear the prophet's voice over the next two days and see what God has in store for us! Thanks for your work in sharing these messages and helping us to think and understand our own testimonies.

[@UAINTKIDDN]

We saw this movement sweep through our last ward over 10 years ago. A very nice family that had became quite close to ours slowly and steadily embraced culture over doctrine. Nice show! It will be interesting to see how this all plays out ...

[@stevehumble8865]

great video, and very thought provoking comments for sure! my personal opinion is that the "bottom up" Revelation theory has no scriptural support and has no place in the church. I have no problem with progressive members giving their opinions on change but that does not constitute Revelation at all. I have served in many leadership positions over 35 years in the church, trust me, Revelation is sometimes very slow and no matter how much leaders seek it , it happens when the Lord is ready to give it. Putting pressure on leaders and on the Lord runs contrary to revealed doctrine.

[@TayLybb]

Just ask Martin Harris and Joseph how well that worked.

[@franciegwin]

Personal revelation could be seen I guess as bottom-up except for the fact that that kind of revelation is JUST FOR YOU!!!!!

[@TayLybb]

Living revelation. God reveals his will over time and it will address our current needs. The word liberal has really lost its definition. Using today's definition.... Elder Holland is not liberal, neither is the Church.

[@mysikind8076]

Truth.

[@kz6fittycent]

I don't understand the position this group (and others) are taking. If they do not feel that the Church is giving them what they want, then leave, and start another Church. I'm all about helping people come unto Christ, but, pardon the cliche, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. Actually, I do understand the position of this group. It is not of God. They are under the influence of the adversary and need to repent.

[@sherbear8097]

I thought this too. If the church is lead through top down revaluation from God then where does bottom up come from?

[@barb8255]

A lot of helpful progress has been made by bottom up policy changes in society and politics. Bottom up gave us our constitution and freedom among many other things accross the globe and history. The issue is whether those calling for change are inspired by God and eternal principles or by man and temporal/carnal principles. When they are from God people and civilizations thrive, when from man society turns chaotic and self destructs. We have ample of historical examples of this and when we don't understand why people would want to repeat destructive patterns we only need remember how real the adversary is and how hard he had always worked to oppose "good". We would do well to not be reactionary and defensive but see the steadiness of gospel doctrine as proactive. The proclaimation came out 26 years ago, that and was very proactive.

[@kz6fittycent]

@@sherbear8097 Lucifer was leading a "bottom-up" revolt against Heavenly Father. He's gonna continue to follow the same pattern here.

[@kz6fittycent]

@@barb8255 not defensive. Pragmatic.

[@andrewwood6285]

@@barb8255 good comments! I think you could say yes and no about the constitution. Bottom up yes it came from men but there are a lot of people in and out of the LDS church that believe it was inspired or the few white wealthy (slave owners) men that put it together were inspired. The revolution and the constitutional convention were both inspired and were necessary to lay the foundation for the church to be founded. It had to be sequenced that way e-card the church would never preach revolution.

[@trzmdpath1981]

This has already happened in the RLDS Church, now Community of Christ. As a restorationist member who voted against the apostasy of females in the priesthood in 1984, do not let this apostasy occur in the LDS Church. The Community of Christ approved gay marriage in 2013 which was two years before the US Supreme Court. But they had to allow various national jurisdictions to approve gay marriage or not since most members in Africa despise gay marriage.

[@spcold89]

Uzza thought that the Ark was about to fall. He stuck his hand out to steady it. He fell dead. Anyone who thinks that they need to steady the Church from the bottom up is spiritually dead. Because they don't believe that the Church is lead and guided by the living Christ. Rather they are humanists without faith or hope.

[@misabel801]

That bothers me, because I think God doesn’t kill people for holding onto something, trying to help. Besides, don’t we believe we go to Heaven when we die? Why would death be a punishment? I am so confused. On one hand Jesus said “ When you see me, you see the Father” and as far as I can tell, Jesus was very tender. I love the New Testament!

[@Cws7187]

Love your videos & I’m not looking to offend anyone or debate anyone this is just my two cents. The church has bent over backwards (which is a good thing) to show love toward the lgbt community. And that’s not a bad thing at all, but virtually every week there is some sort of statement on that issue. Meanwhile in my opinion the church is ignoring a lot of other people who “feel they don’t fit in, in the church” I’m a single 30 year old, college degree, good job etc etc. I try to date with no success, most lds women won’t even give me a chance, I know many other men in my same situation. We feel we don’t “fit in” with the church. This is just one example, but the church is in my opinion losing a ton of people by seemingly only focusing on that issue

[@franciegwin]

Chase, I see your point and I'm just tired of talking about it! If you are in this group and you don't feel accepted it's not that the Church hasn't done all they can do to make you feel wanted and accepted. I don't go around saying my whole life is wrapped around my sexuality. My whole identity is wrapped around being a daughter of God.

[@alisonbock8527]

Have seen this post elsewhere. The Church is very aware of members who feel this way for whatever reason. Just saw parts of a talk by the general RS president in leadership training from Nauvoo addressing this.

[@Cws7187]

@@alisonbock8527 I would to read that talk. It seems to me the church usually has a more accusatory tone when talking to single men. And I’m not saying the church should pander to single men. Im just using that as an example of other people who feel like they don’t fit in with the church or have struggles. Im glad the church is preaching kindness and love, but with that said in my opinion the church’s singular focus on that one social issue is leaving a lot of other issues unaddressed.

[@alisonbock8527]

I hope I'm doing this correctly. Excerpts from her talk and many others I found in the Church news online. I cruise around and read everything I can find from the leadership of the Church-just my regular policy. Good luck.

[@tomasina10]

@@Cws7187 I see this too with many members of All ages and situations feeling left out . I know after Sister Eubanks made a big fuss how “proud “ she was of a sister talking about being queer one of my daughters who was struggling with other issues remarked how she wished someone in the Church was proud of her for keeping the commandments when life was hard . Most people Completely agree with having people feel welcome regardless of their circumstances but it seems that many have been left behind in a rush to keep certain members happy . It is a tough balance .

[@TheYgds]

I like what you stated at around 10 minutes in, that the Church is international, and does not change doctrine from place to place to appeal to the people being taught the gospel. The Church does not have a responsibility to spread Americanism around the world, but the gospel alone.

[@giovannazahler4292]

This concept that we need to please people with progressive/ liberal ideas is more important than what pleases God and therefore change church policies around the law of chastity so that we can keep these few is out of the question. God doesn't change his laws.

[@alenewalker1188]

What a strange idea: Im going to throw out God's prophet and his church and just have a relationship with God. That has never worked in the past because Christ stands by his Prophets as they stand by HIm.

[@ricks341]

Ultimately bottom up "revelation" is apostasy. There will be some things that come from the members that cause the brethren to seek revelation, but those will the minority. We have the Proclamation on the Family (top down recelation). We as members and potential members need to conform our lives to those principles not try to receive new revelation.

[@45s262]

Just endless harassment from the adversary and his children, knowing full well the doctrine of the family, chastity, and temple will not change.

[@Hawkquill]

When I joined the church 26 year's ago it was all about me changing my life to adapt to the principles of the church. Not the church adapting to my life, as there would be no point in me becoming a member. Here's the the thing, these very lovely young people are suggesting they cannot change, the gospel becomes easier now to live because your the problem not me. The prophet or the people have zero power, remember who's church this is, Christ only has the power. I cannot say who gets in the Celestial kingdom and who don't that also belongs to Christ and the Father. But what I do know is that two men or two women cannot create life period! So they are robbing themselves of that blessing, can they still enter the CK? Don't know but if you cannot create life whats the point? How will you populate worlds? You can be gay if you want to, but there are consequences, that even God can't fix. Unless you are a woman in a mans body, then thats suggesting God has made a mistake. Unlikely, but if so He can fix it, if not there's something else going on. We need to love them and show charity but at the same time be real, explain the facts, then let them choose whether they need help or not.

[@stuartbowles7280]

Good presentation, and perspective. Thank You. The Savior said He would be as a sword that would divide. Our responsibility is to conform our lives to His laws! Those who hold the mindset that God should relax His laws to conform to his children's desires, are the ones who are enticed by the Great and Spacious Building, and let go, and stop clinging to the Iron Rod. There are particular reasons why Mormon abridged the information in The Book of Mormon that he did, which would serve us in our day. The Kingman and Gadianton Robbers were made up mostly of dissenters of The Church. Those that wanted their desires taught and not God's Laws. Exactly what Elder Holland's talk to the BYU faculty was referring to. The reaction of the liberal community to his talk is no surprise, because "The Truth Cutteth To The Heart!" Our responsibility as God's children is to bring our lives in accordance with His laws. As we do so, we grow closer to, and become more like Him, which results in us receiving His Blessings. "There Is A Law Irrevocably Decreed In Heaven". As our testimonies grow, we fill our lamps with His Light and Knowledge and Strength. Modern day revelation tells us the Parable of the 10 Virgins is specifically for us, as members of His Church. There is a reason only 5 of the 10 Virgins are invited into the marriage, and the others denied entry by The Bride Groom. The Family: A Proclamation To The World, is one of His Laws written in stone for our day in preparation for the Second Coming of The Lord, and tells us specifically His Law on the very subject. Those that think this doctrine will change, are sadly mistaken, and misguided by a "flaxen cord" of the adversary.

[@kellyjohnson6292]

This recent October 2021 general conference addressed some of what you’ve discussed here: ways of administering the sacrament may change but the doctrine and principles it is based on remain the same. Or rather the “restoration is on going” but the gospel foundational doctrines and principles remain the same. I’m disheartened that many of my brothers and sister desire to change Christ’s church rather than change to be more like Christ.

[@adamjonsson]

Not much would shake my testimony more than if the same-sex marriage would be made possible in the temple. The marriage between husband and wife is an unchangeable core doctrine, similar to how we are the children of our Heavenly Father.

[@warwompit]

They are trying to steady the ark. The scriptures mention that in the last days even the elect will be deceived. You’re watching it unfold.

[@cindlou7335]

Don't forget the "were it possible" part of that scripture. It is not a given.

[@warwompit]

@@cindlou7335 I read it more as a rhetorical statement that a conditional, like "if you can believe it" rather than "perhaps it could happen." It's saying that members who stay in will be shocked and bewildered at what drives other members away from the church. After reading that article, I get it now.

[@rolandsmith4394]

Read the Joseph Smith translation of Matt. It is significantly more powerful than the KJV. Plus there is a definition of "elect" in D&C--i think--20

[@ericnelson3334]

The ending of the time of the gentiles (a process, not a moment ) will not occur because the world rejects the gospel but because there is an apostasy in the church of Christ. The destructive testimony of God to the world will begin in the Church and go out from there (that's in D&C 112) and the gospel will go from the gentiles to the jews. This will happen. It's taking shape daily. God wants us to work on our personal relationship with him. His sheep will hear his voice and follow him.

[@thebasiclute]

We are supposed to go Bottom Up as long as its organizing against abortion clinics, etc. (In other words righteous endeavors). But to receive revelation for the entire Church? … absolutely NOT! For personal revelation? … absolutely! “In coming days, it will not be possible to survive spiritually without the guiding, directing, comforting and constant influence of the Holy Ghost,” President Nelson said during his first general conference as President of the Church. Nov 5, 2020

[@edhuhtala8457]

Awesome video, lots to think about. My thoughts are... 1 - Policies are one thing, pure doctrine and how those core principles function in the gospel is another. You can only change things so much before it becomes a different religion. God never changes, if he did, he would lose his power and status and become fallen himself. The entire universe runs off of unchangeable, immutable laws that once they are violated, either chaos occurs, or the law of justice kicks in and punishments start to occur, and actually these are really both one and the same principle. 2 - I would say there is no “mold” or should be NO mold for members of the church on how they look or behave. We are all there to change and become better so we can be comfortable in God’s presence. 3 - Doctrine on the family, the law of chastity and temple marriage are all UNCHANGEABLE doctrinal principles. God the Father and Jesus Christ became who they are because they upheld these principles. These principles will never change, if they do then the church will fall or God will call other leaders to replace them and start over. We all exist because God followed these principles. 4 - The church has a purpose which is to preach the gospel, strengthen the membership of the church and do temple work for the dead. The church helps us to learn how to return to God’s presence. We can’t do this if we go off on our own to worship God in “the perfect environment” of our choosing. The church provides an atmosphere where we can practice the principles we learn with other people. 5 - I feel like all the talk about gender fluidity issues are people just trying to get others to not call their actions sins when the scriptures are clear on that subject. They want to be comfortable with their actions, when in reality, “wickedness never was happiness”. 6 - The church functions on a “Top-down” manner for revelation. It goes through the prophet ultimately and through the quorum of the twelve. Policy changes may be influenced by the membership but not doctrine. And, the church is not a “democracy” where if enough votes are given, things can be changed. The secular world will never understand spiritual things and for this they don’t understand doctrine can’t be changed by a simple vote. The secular world tries to blame it on power hungry leaders when it is God directing his work, not a “group of white men”. The world continues to become more wicked, we will continue to feel increased pressure but we must not break, we must follow the prophet and the twelve. They will keep us on the straight and narrow. Just my thoughts, thanks again for the awesome, thought provoking video.

[@1sirteddles]

Ed, you are totally correct on all 6 points. It is now 4.10 AM Monday 25th April in Sydney Australia. I was watching some other KZbin videos after some General Conference talks. They were apostates "dissing" the Church. I switched from one site to another and I couldn't take it any more. I needed spiritual cleansing after watching that spiritual pollution. Greg is correct: I wouldn't resign from the Church but I would stop attending if the Law of Chastity was changed, if same sex marriage was allowed in the Temple, or even just sealing of same sex couples was allowed. I am not anti-LGBTQI. One of my best friends in high school turned out to be gay, and he died from AIDS. I love the music of Queen and cried at the end of Bohemian Rhapsody when Freddie Mercury died. That is not the same as accepting same sex sealings in the temple. That is what the LGBTQI LDS really want. I have seen or met The Lord at least 8 times in the past 10 years. He appeared to me with 3 of his Angels in the Sydney Australia Temple when I was a Temple ordinance worker. Each of the Angels had the same messages and revelations for me. These 6 points you have highlighted are some of the things the Angels warned me about in relation to apostasy from the Church in the Last Days. While we should be loving and compassionate towards people such as the LGBTQI community, The Lord expects us who have strong testimonies to stand firm for the Truth. He was the one who suffered in Gethsemane. He was the one who died on the cross. He has made it plain to me that it His problem to deal with and Judge. He expects us to remain faithful to the truth. The secular world will criticise us, but they are the bigots not us who love the Lord.

[@HikeRx]

I agree. Classical liberalism is actually not what today's media calls 'liberal ' The term is misused quite often....even by self described conservatives. Many self described conservatives are trying to conserve ideals of classical liberalism.

[@k4949]

Amen to this! Conservatives and classical liberals actually have things in common.

[@paulmacfarlaneslp9209]

Why would anyone even begin to think a that a secular non-believing observer would understand revelation? Every major change in church practice has been part of a process of bringing the body of the church into alignment with scripture. The abandonment of polygyny was completely in accordance with Jacob 2:27-30. The revelation on the Priesthood in 1978 was an alignment with 2 Nephi 26:33. The reorganizations of the quorums of the Seventy have gradually brought church structure into alignment with D&C 107. Anyone who knows and understands the Bible and modern scriptures should be able to see that sexual conduct standards will never be able to relax without defiling the temples and bringing the wrath of God upon the Church. We should have the utmost sympathy for those who struggle with the law of chastity, but catering to their desires doctrinally cannot help them.

[@jeremycollins1068]

If ‘it’ changes, the big dude is going to owe the people of Genesis 19 on heck of an apology. They’re going to have to rewrite Leviticus 18 and The Family, A Proclamation to the World. The prophet DOESN’T have the authority to change this or other - ‘all kinds of things.’ The post-modern neo-Marxist always see things only in terms of power.

[@RandyRobin]

Very intelligent, reasonable presentation. It touched thoughts and feelings I’ve have for some time, especially bubbling to the top during the CA Prop 8 phone campaign and GA broadcasts. Ultimately, I have concluded that I am participating in a theocracy, not a democracy, so I believe that revelation is top-down. Otherwise I would make my opinion superior to that of The Savior. I hope that’s not too simplistic but I find peace in it. I don’t get to steady the ark.

[@CwicShow]

In "Cwic" terms, this is submission to the Fluid Hierarchy. Good approach!

[@RandyRobin]

@@CwicShow Fluid is a great term for it! The Restoration is still in progress and it's on us to roll with at as it unfolds. :) The picture of government in the Millenium and after is still pretty gray to me. I know the Who but the details are fuzzy. On purpose, no doubt.

[@jaredsalazarofficial]

I always believe and will always believe that revelation will always come from God revealed through his representative here on earth. We could ask God, whether by prayer or by his representative, for changes to be made but the bottom line is God will decide and it's not our decision to question his decision. Though I believe some specific policies can adjust to our needs but the fundamental doctrines such as marriage between man and woman and such will never change unless the whole plan of salvation will be useless.

[@TypeAndShadow]

I find it interesting that regardless of the changes in culture and beliefs of people in the scriptures, the message from God through His holy prophets was always the same: Repent and turn back to God. This message of repentance remains just as true today. So it comes down to a choice between trusting in God and His eternal principles or trusting in progressive ideals.

[@jimgrigg8611]

I was born Gay and joined the Church in 1981,I have endured lots of persecution from Leaders and Members. I still cannot attend the local Ward so I drive 35 miles to a Ward that accepts me and befriends me.I am presently 69 years olde and worked for the Church for 17 years. Harold B. Lee gave a Great talk on Liberal Mormons. This is Heavenly Father and his son Jesus Christ's Church.The Church must adhere to what the Lord wants. I am totally against Gay Marriage and the thought of Gay couples attending the Temple is a Gross abomination! I will stay close to Heavenly Father and the Lord! Revelation can come only from the Lord!

[@drewhanna9057]

Samuel principle. Israel wanted a king and put pressure in the prophet. The "church" of israel changed for the worse due to this. Just because they change the church doesnt mean it is for good. I pray our prophet and lord dont give these people what they are asking for. Where will I go if they do...

[@rconger24]

"The thing about snakes is that they are, so adept at stealth and lithely capable, they can go anywhere and get into the garden unseen. They can even creep into your own heart, before you are aware of it." -Sound Chaser

[@rconger384]

Generation of Vipers

[@Lifeisgood1883]

I am Grateful for your Podcaster. They can't change the gospel.

[@AlbertoDeFeo]

This is a great videocast. I agree with you that the fact of the matter is around specific doctrines, most definitely the law of chastity, but also priesthood authority, how revelation is received in the church, and other foundational doctrines and principles. I also agree that there is still too much cultural stigma in our church that has nothing to do with what we believe. The reality is that, as Christians. and Latter-day Saints, we should follow the example of the Saviour and strive to love one another, especially in our diversities. On the other hand, those who feel differently need to understand that the doctrine of the church depends on God and not men. For as much as it is hard to accept, truth is truth and changing truth to accommodate personal beliefs ceases to be truth and becomes something else. Thank you for your wonderful Channel and all the good things you say. I appreciate it.

[@thomasmaughan4798]

"should follow the example of the Saviour and strive to love one another, especially in our diversities" Particularly when they go and sin no more.

[@valkraus5255]

It very much feels like Amlici is trying to subjugate the rest of us yet again. I will love everyone, but these increasingly loud messages are scary.

[@RichardChappell1]

Meh, I found the article less or a reporting of the situation, and more participation in the advocacy. The article has many accurate facts, but the context and representation of them are less than accurate - as with your example of Kaplan's musket fire statement. Further, the description of the policy surrounding children of homosexual couples, or the priesthood of black Africans. You are right about policy changing to help members feel better. The danger with that, is that it's typical of appeasement policies - it results in larger problems down the road. It also shows the danger of trying to link every policy that the Church makes with revelation. That's not the way the Gospel or the Church has always been. For example, when the Church adopted Scouting back in the early part of the 1900s, it wasn't revelation, but an inspired decision to take advantage of a program that aligned with the goals we had for our young men. Likewise, it's not likely that the decision to separate from Scouting was revelation. Just as we are expected to make decisions to run our lives based on our reason and values, the Church is the same. It would be lazy and slothful to rely on revelation for every change in Church policy.

[@RichardChappell1]

The Church does make bottom-up changes based on the desires and actions of the people, but they are not typically positive. Usually they result in a loss, such as the lost pages of the Book of Mormon and the law of consecration.

[@bjay155]

I believe the law of consecration is still in force and practiced by many.

[@rolandsmith4394]

Amen

[@gusulaht99]

Pretty simple, really. The Church of Jesus Christ embraces us IN SPITE OF who we are -- we ALL sin and fall short of the glory of God, right? But these folks who are seeking dramatic shifts in church policy want to be embraced BECAUSE OF who they are. And it doesn't work that way, does it?

[@jamesbell2682]

Bottom up works well in government but horrible in the Gospel of Christ.

[@palmerpalmer9823]

The Lord has requirements but encased in those requirements is the Lords unfathable love for each of us including our deepest thoughts, genetics, hopes and desires. His compassionate love and understanding is not comp romised by behavior outside of His laws but loving support for change.

[@mercedesbeard6974]

The one big probemos that we have is that as members we want the church to adapt to our convenient way of life. We want to live as we please, not doing what we need to do, but do what we want. Pitiful. I hope the church will stand firm and not give in.

[@terrisarubio5068]

Revelation is inspired direction from GOD. It only "travels" one direction, down to us. His ways are higher than ours, we have been taught. The very idea of "bottom-up revelation" is an oxymoron if ever there was. The bottom can cry for "change" but it will never be REVELATION!

[@terrypeal4005]

Thanks GREG, Interesting discussion. This is the Church of Jesus Christ. We have the agency to accept His doctrine or not. Are we seeing the wheat and tares parable being played out?

[@michaelfletcher1224]

I agree that revelation is always top-down. But revelation is almost always a response to people asking questions. That said, that article seems to only talk about personal revelation not revelation through the keys of the priesthood. There is a big difference between those two things. Individuals may get guidance to help them in their unique circumstances that may be slightly different from the general guidance given to the whole church... but it won't be wildly different and certainly not contradictory. In the end, you follow those that hold the keys and you'll be on track. Anything else opens you up to deception. It's totally fine to give feedback to church leaders and to try to make sure they are fully aware of a given issue. I think that's what happened with the policy regarding baptizing children of gay parents. The brethren became more fully aware of the issue and amended/improved the policy. But I don't think anyone should think that the church will change it's doctrine because of social pressure or member pressure. The church didn't change it's doctrine on plural marriage. It changed it's policy about practicing it but the doctrine is the same. The church may have to legally accept gay marriage as the law of the land but it won't change the doctrine. And remember 50% of the church won't be ready when the time comes. (Matthew 25) It's not a surprise to see the numbers showing things heading in that direction.

[@thomasmaughan4798]

"The church may have to legally accept gay marriage as the law of the land but it won't change the doctrine." I doubt the church is much concerned with civil marriage. But it could play into the temple worthiness question about keeping the law of chastity if two men think they are keeping the law of chastity because the government now allows certain behaviors formerly illegal.

[@perryewell5395]

Thus the necessity of separation of church and state: The state should be "We the people" while the church must be "The One true God." But even then, we are one nation under God, and if we ignore His law, we remove ourselves from His protection. God is in charge.

[@1sirteddles]

Brother Greg, I have read as many Comments as I am well enough to read. I clicked on like as much as I can. There will be apostasy from the Church as the Lord's Second Coming gets closer. It has hard to love people who have lost the Light of Christ, the Spirit of Christ from not partaking of the Sacrament regularly, and the gift of the Holy Ghost. It is not just their stiff-neckedness and hard-heartedness as they run off and join cults like of that of John Dehlin. The spiritual darkness in them is physically sickening for me. WE have to remember how many people want to enjoy themselves in the "large and spacious building." All we can do is pray for them, and as they become more hateful, we have to try and become more loving. Please stay strong n the faith Greg. Your bottom up leadership is greatly appreciated. God bless you and your family, and the Grace and Mercy of His son be upon you all.

[@methuselahhoneysuckle4813]

You hit the nail on the head at the end when you said, "what happens when the culture goes in the wrong direction?" This is the exact reason the founding fathers didn't give us a pure democracy. They realized that the people often choose the wrong thing. And the church's job, or the First Presidency's and the Quorum of the Twelve's job is to hold the church to the path that the Lord has set. Their job is not to follow the will of the people.

[@coleenburris6816]

Bottom-up, never. Chastity will always be chastity.

[@drmichaelshea]

If the Church is becoming a political organization, I’m outta here!

[@cougfan82]

From my point of view, the politics of today are becoming ever more polarizing, pulling more people to become deeply entrenched further to both the left and the right ends the political spectrum, while the Church seems to be charting a course right through the middle of it all. There are those that are finding the Church to be too far to the right for them to feel comfortable with it as they move more to the left in their political views and beliefs and philosophies. Many have left and many more will leave the Church because it doesn't harmonize with their political stances. And the same is happening to the right. There are now many who think the Church is drifting too far to the left, believing the Church leadership has become apostate and so forth. Many of these folks have drifted so far to the right that they too have left the Church with others surely to follow them. Also, evaluating the Church only in an academic manner is not likely to allow room for God's influence to be found within it.

[@randallbateman3418]

When CRT is being taught at BYU, the church has clearly drifted to the left.

[@docshiffer]

Bottom up revelation is impossible. I am entitled to revelation for my family. the bishop for the members in his ward etc I am not, nor should I be, responsible for revelation for the Stake, the Area or the Church as a whole. I have an inkling that the "Bishop" in this article may not be who they say he is, as he kept referring to the Church as the "Mormon" church

[@valkraus5255]

It is so strange that we forget that all of us have challenges and trials to overcome in this life, some worse than others. I can’t imagine how hard an LGBTQ tendencies would be, but it is just like my weaknesses I have to deal with and seek endowments of power from Jesus Christ to overcome while I strive to help others struggling with areas I am stronger in. Through that we all get stronger together. These changes would largely just weaken us all.

[@daviddrysdale8882]

Wouldn't that be an oxymoron to suggest that "revelation" could go from the bottom up!?!? Revelation comes from the verb, to reveal, and as far as I know, he reveals His will to man, not the other way around!

[@randyfischer5082]

The Lord said, "Come, follow me.". He did NOT say, "Come, follow me and sometimes I'll follow you in whatever is currently popular".

[@MaryDePetris]

Thank you for all your great content! I am in one of these super liberal progressive wards on the East Coast. The sad part is the Bishop who I adore is on the social justice bandwagon. He gives out temple recommend like candy to kids who are basically inactive. It's mind blowing. I don't fit in anymore.

[@saintinlower48]

My 17 year old says, "Sometimes I have to be a Latter-Day Saint among Latter-Day Saints." You fit with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, but I don't envy your situation being in that area.

[@MaryDePetris]

@@saintinlower48 Thanks Michelle

[@thomasmaughan4798]

I call that kind "Latter-day Aints"

[@anthonyjames4478]

The very term "Bottom-up Revelation" is a contradiction. Man does not reveal anything pertaining to the Kingdom of God. If it doesn't come from the Heavens, then it isn't revelation, but the philosophies of men. The homosexual agenda in all its present-day manifestations is but the theories of men looking to rationalize sin and its attendant behaviors. Citing such events as the cessation of Polygamy in1890 and the "restoration of the Priesthood to all worthy males" is nothing short of disinformation. You can quote all the LDS scholars from here to the moon who think these are instances of bottom-up revelation and it only proves that scholars are as subject to incorrect thinking and to the drawing of false conclusions as those with less education. We are in the "last days" and know that Satan will rage in the hearts of men and hardly those of the "Elect" will escape his claws unless they humble themselves and follow the counsel of living Prophets. None of those who think to break away from the Church, deluding themselves in thinking that they can nevertheless establish a relationship with God while ignoring or dismissing His anointed leadership, can demonstrate the legitimacy of their actions by example. Whenever there has been a Prophet called, that is the conduit between believers and God. What amazes me is how so many of those pressing for a gay agenda in the Church act as though doing so is something new to the world. The homosexuals of today are no different than in any other age of the world and the affect of their lifestyle can have no different influence and set of repercussions upon the souls of men than at any other time, indeed upon any other world! And about those leaving the Church - the real tragedy is that they honestly expect the Church to change for them as they utterly defame the beliefs of others. Gospel principles exist whereby we are changed, not so that we can change them as we so choose based on our lifestyle. I don't care one wit that you were 'born this way," "have always known you were different," or "want to be true to yourself." There isn't a weakness found in man that couldn't be likewise argued for and all to no avail! Cwic rightly points out that the real issues here are all centered around the Law of Chastity and the principle of Eternal Marriage. The marriage covenant binds a man to a women in the creation of that union necessary to the production of life and its maintenance in a family setting. The so-called union of homosexuals can create nothing like this, and that should be the first clue as to its false status. I am saddened that so many struggle with this very clear principle of the Gospel, but if they want to leave, let them. Such is their right to do. Protesting outside Temple Square, forming their own branches and wards, writing letters to influence Church leaders. etc. are all signs of a loss of faith in how God has established His Kingdom.

[@mr.s2005]

there is no reason for change simply to keep members happy and keep them coming to church...especially when what they want is opposite from the gospel. we are supposed to live in this world not be OF the world

[@Celestian329]

Let those who want to leave, let them leave! They are not of God! The Church needs cleaning up from these kind of people.

[@joeshawcroft7121]

You pose an interesting question about whether revelation is "reactionary" to social changes. Looking back at the restoration, much of the revelation was received in response to questions that came up due to social issues, or the saints being unsure how to proceed. I believe that is one of the things that makes us a "living" church. As we are faced with new societal challenges, the leaders will ask God how the saints and the church should go forward and revelation will come. Of course God knows all in advance and will warn and implement as seemeth him good but He will also guide His church as they ask.

[@stevenmcguire9368]

Separation of the goats and the lambs! There is only right and wrong. Listen to the prophet.

[@MrPatriotSon]

No bottom-up revelation ! revelation comes from TOP DOWN ! ! ! If they want change leave the Church and start your own ! ! !

[@ronpalmer2u]

The Gospel of Jesus Christ never changes. We are Not and Should Not be Political, however the Anti-Christ will seek to destroy us soon.

[@maryfrankralls9985]

AMEN!! There is only ONE TRUTH!! And this is GOD'S TRUTH!!!

[@ryancrockett7074]

Thank you. This reminds me of Elder Lynn G. Robbins' talk 'Which Way Do You Face?'. He gives an example of the Prophet Jospeh trying some "Bottom-Up" revelation with Martin Harris and losing the 116 pages. I would love a video to help give me the vernacular to describe the difference between "Bottom-Up" revelations and prophets seeking the Lord's will for current issues. For example, the Word of Wisdom was received only after Joseph's inquiry on behalf of his wife and was not by way of commandment to begin with. I have struggled to articulate the difference between this and some of the changes bottom-uppers are seeking today.