Tomcats 4, Libya 0 - The Real Story of the Gulf of Sidra Incidents

[@mikehiggins104]

Ward, great, as always. One slight change. I was at VX-4 with Hank, running his Hornet Tactics Development shop. They were so new we still were flying with beta flight control software (didn’t yet understand transonic flight-another story). Hank was flying Pt Mugu to Miramar, rainy day. Had a planing link failure on takeoff. At that time, there were no indications to the pilot. The cause was the brakes hadn’t completely stopped tire rotation when the gear retracted. The forces exerted bent the planing link. Once gear down at Miramar, that gear was now toed in 18 degrees, but he didn’t know. Once he lost rudder effectiveness (about 80knots) the misalignment took charge and he started doing 360’s. It’s here that old habits and new airplanes bit Hank. As a Phantom and Tomcat guy, we flew low CG lead sleds. Prevailing philosophy was “leaving the runway, ride it out unless you were gonna hit something”. The Hornet sits higher, on more narrow gear, and is much more tippy. Had we thought it out in advance, he would have been ready to eject leaving the runway. And maybe alive today. Alas, at VX-4, we didn’t figure this out in time for Hank. Cheers, Sluggo

[@WardCarroll]

Good gouge, Sluggo. Thanks.

[@mikehiggins104]

To clear up another point about the final bit of Hank’s death… When the Hornet left the runway, 90 degrees to direction of travel, the main and nose gear dug into the mud. The airplane then stood up on one wingtip and the radome, and just stopped, perfectly vertical. Then, the radome broke off sideways. This pulled the canopy jettison cable, which popped the canopy. Hank didn’t pull it, and the safety report found it still stowed. The plane then slowly fell on its top. Hank’s neck was broken in the impact, high (not sure of the level). It’s true his head was in muddy water, but couldn’t have lived with the spinal injury anyway. Hope this helps. TINS, Sluggo

[@ytbonsig]

Great breakdown of the incident. I was the senior intruder on the next launch. If you’re interested, I can tell you “the rest of story” … some crazy stuff.

[@jeffreynorthrop9518]

We are definitely interested in hearing "the rest of the story " . Thank you for your service!

[@Patjza80]

YES! I’d love to hear it!

[@Lucid95642]

This bring back memories! I served in VF-41 Black Aces from 1994-1997. This story was told during my tour in the squadron. 20 years Navy. Thank you Sir for the great story. Forever Tomcat!

[@ericgulseth74]

I love how brutally honest the flight community is. Only way to get better.

[@Weapon10X]

All highly functional organizations have this culture. It’s critically important to be able to exceed the standard. The word of caution is that those involved must also feel supported and free of persecution, otherwise honesty becomes a problem.

[@whydoyougottahavthis]

Would you like to know why?

[@ericgulseth74]

@@Weapon10X Good point. A safety program is no good if people are afraid of getting in trouble. It's why it's one of the cornerstones of our safety program at work.

[@passattdise]

It's called code of honor and integrity.

[@TheNecromancer6666]

Navy and Airforce value that their performance is based on complex technologie and science. And they always encourage people to learn and get better. Whole sadly in the army that's usually not the case.

[@Spike_au]

Glad to see this channel growing. Probably the best, most well articulated, least self absorbed, no bull stories and informative videos from an ex aviator on you tube. Keep the content coming!

[@anthonysaponaro6318]

One of the very best and informative on the tube period. Full stop !

[@SimDeck]

Can't stand Mover. Self absorbed beyond belief.

[@jaazielgarcia3938]

Smooch is awesome .. I also recommend the 10 percent true podcast :D

[@jamierife7789]

Wow, I've watched and listened to the video/audio of the January 1989 incident many, many times, and never knew before now what a clusterfark it really was. Thanks for the insight and analysis, Ward!

[@brendanstewart5074]

I've listened to this exchange at least 10-20 times in the past, you giving the full context regarding ROE and other protocols was hugely helpful. Thank you.

[@KutWrite]

...also seeing an unedited version helps.

[@vtwinbuilder3129]

This really is the best telling of these incidents I’ve ever heard. Makes it considerably easier to understand the way he described it.

[@mandoreforger6999]

I had heard that the first Fox1 had malfunctioned, but it seems that it was probably not the case.

[@vtwinbuilder3129]

@@mandoreforger6999 I guess that depends on how liberal the definition of malfunction is being applied. It sounds more like operator error to me as well to be honest.

[@jimpalmer1969]

@@vtwinbuilder3129 There were errors to be sure. In 1989 the state of the military was pretty green. Not to be negative about our service members, but the US had not been in any major actions since the end of Viet Nam in 1972. There really wasn't anyone on active duty that had seen action. Things changed in the 1990s.

[@dukeofearl4117]

Ward, thanks for the great stories. I’m a former AQ, then worked as a software development engineer for Grumman on the A6E, EA6-B and the F14. My career was amazing. I’m a retired guitar player now.

[@Deafwing]

I'm not entirely sure why your channel popped up in my suggestions, but I'm really glad it did.

[@IROCZSPEED]

Ditto

[@steelbre]

L

[@imouse3246]

It was interesting, no question.

[@garymarkz4672]

Same here. I'll drop one for the algos

[@charon669bb]

I'm glad too.

[@bobroyes589]

That still shot with 202's kill marking on the nose was actually taken by myself. At the time I was with a Navy reserve unit out of NY assigned to JFK. We arrived a little while after the incident. Flying from the US in a C-141 into Sigonella and on to the boat via C-2, then riding JFK to Norfolk. I submitted that shot , amongst others to Navsource. You have a great channel here, but as an old Phantom Phixer I would like to see something of F-4's done. I always thought that the video recording released back then sounded a little off, but that just an old metal smith/plane captain's opinion.

[@kCI251]

I bet Ward could find plenty of Phantom drivers to interview.

[@RedTail1-1]

I mean... He never flew in the F-4 so what can he really contribute to that conversation?.. He's an F-14 RIO and that's what he knows so that's what he talks about.

[@tscott6843]

Former Marine (20 year) avionics guy here. I was in the Corps when both of these incidents occurred, so I can be pretty objective. Great episode. I really like that you tell the good and the bad in the episodes I’ve seen thus far. I subscribed and rang the bell (rare for me).

[@jhmcglynn]

What? A Former Marine? I joined a flying club in Bridgeport Connecticut in 1990 that was run by an elderly retired Korean War era Marine Corsair pilot. I told him I “My uncle Bob is an ex-marine”. He said, “Son, there are no ex-Marines. Once a Marine, always a Marine”. I never made that mistake again.

[@desertodavid]

@@jhmcglynn my thoughts exactly. I'm also a retired Marine who served in the Avionics community. I can't believe that any career Marine from my Leatherneck era (1976-1997) would refer to themselves as anything but a Marine.

[@just_one_opinion]

Everybody says those kinds of ra ra cliche's. I joined during Desert Shield into armor (recruiter sgt Schwartz) lied and said combat arms is armor. I was a dumb kid who believed all Marines had honor. I spent 4 years active and 4 reserve in the Combat Engineers mos1371. Got to see the world though, Subic bay after Pinatubo blew, Okinawa and we even had a hand in 94 in Bosnia and Somalia with GW battlegroup on a med float. Older you get more you realize all the "actions" were sorry ass posturing's by undisciplined disgusting civilian garbage leaders playing with our guys' lives. Just to make some shekkels by special interests in the next election. That bitch over, Semper Fidelis....Always Faithfull to my brothers and sisters.

[@hectorcontreras7216]

I’m a military history enthusiast and glad to hear from someone who has firsthand account or has walked in the shoes of a naval pilot !!! THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE!!!

[@bobstephenson4391]

Old Marine Cobra guy here. I was in college when the first incident happened and was doing a FAC tour when the second one happened. Great brief! My son is a F-18D WSO at Beaufort right now (grad TOPGUN Dec’19, WTI Oct ‘20). One of my daughters is a MH-60S driver in the screaming Indians, just came off of Nimitz, another daughter is a E-2C NFO currently in the Screwtops on the Ike. I will send this to them!

[@nickdannunzio7683]

I worked with a USMC Cobra Pilot (Verizon), in Philly, he was done active and was a reservist at Willow Grove, his ACO was one of my coworkers (same company)... I was a reservist Seabee also drilling at WG... after getting them a copy of my orders and pentagram... I was able to go for a ride... we went to McGuire... one of the most awesome experiences of my life...

[@bend1483]

Now that’s a pretty cool family!

[@WardCarroll]

Awesome, Bob. Thanks, Marine!

[@bobstephenson4391]

@@WardCarroll Do you know Flex Destafney and/or Butch Kissick?

[@WardCarroll]

@@bobstephenson4391 Yes. (Butch better than Flex.)

[@danmiller7079]

Hello Ward, was examining the vast world of KZbin when I found your channel. As a Veteran of the United States Marine Corps during the mid seventies, I had the honor of serving aboard two war ships; U.S.S. New Orleans (LPH 11) and the U.S.S. Duluth (LPD 6). Even though I was a grunt Marine, I still love military aircraft especially F-4’s, CH-46 & 53’s, AH-1 Cobra’s, and OV-10 Bronco’s. When we were on the New Orleans, we even had a couple of AV-8 Harriers. What a treat. Also had the “pleasure” of watching an SR-71 take off from Kadena AFB, Okinawa. Have a great night, Sir. Also subscribed.

[@just_one_opinion]

Naha Radio aka the stage....Semper fi!

[@jameshisself9324]

Well presented, and I appreciate your candor in describing the less than favorable aspects of the 2nd encounter.

[@WardCarroll]

Thanks, James. Appreciate the support.

[@The_Tau]

@@WardCarroll Hey Carroll, great explanation, but could you clarify how could only 1 sparrow be guided at one time? I thought they only require CW to illuminate the target as they are SARH, so how could 2 missiles interfere with each other? As you also try to fly DCS, you may notice that in DCS you can happily guide 2 AIM7s at the same time. Is that wrong? Or was there an upgrade to radar or something? Thanks

[@madaxe606]

Really, really appreciate the no-bull, no-ego breakdown of these events. Very obvious that you are a quality instructor who understands how ro make complex ideas understandable to a lay audience. Thank you!

[@Darrylshaw]

I am so glad I found this channel. I cherish my ONE carrier landing (helo) as a journalist passenger aboard USS Constellation in 1986. Listening to Ward and Dale Snodgrass is an education in itself. I have been doing standup comedy for 10 years and nothing is more fun than sitting at a table after a few drinks and hearing stories from your peers. You think you know it all but hear something you didn't know every time. It's that way watching these videos. THANK YOU Commander Carroll.

[@morganottlii2390]

Thank You for your service!👍🇱🇷💯

[@MrJules2U]

This is the type of analytical info that most people don't get to see. Really interesting to watch, and graciously narrated. Thankyou Ward.

[@andrewreinacher8679]

I was working at the base comm center at RAF Mildenhall UK on that day when Operation El Dorado Canyon was launched. I actually notified the base Command Post and the Wing Commander that we had received the launch order for the mission itself. Mildenhall supported the mission with in air refueling of the F-111's and air reconnaissance from the SR-71 Black Bird. My shift crew and I all received the Air Force Commendation Medal for our participation that day! That was the proudest day of my Air Force career.

[@BigTrain175]

I was a shift supervisor at the base commcenter at RAF Chicksands back then, but it was my day off. Didn't know anything had happened until the next day. When I arrived at the base main gate there were SPs in full combat gear and carrying automatic weapons.

[@MattH-wg7ou]

My dad was a weapons loader and loaded and or pulled pins/armed the bombs on the F111s that participated in El Dorado Canyon. He hasnt told me all the details.

[@curtm3010]

I clearly recall the SR-71 pass for recon on the SPS-48 on BIDDLE. We huddled around the scope and got 3 blips during the transit....and that was about a 400 mil track within out view.

[@puterbac]

I was in HS and remember France and Spain refused overflight rights which caused multiple refueling to get there and back. Do you think the additional hours flying time contributed to the lost F111? Was the French building “accidentally” hit?

[@MattH-wg7ou]

@@puterbac my 3rd hand hearsay knowledge of it was that the extra hours and nav/ins drift(?) could have contributed to the loss.

[@heydonray]

You know something bad is coming up when you hear “We will just call him Steve...”

[@Walter_E_Kurtz]

He was saying that in the exact moment that I was reading your comment.

[@Leo_Pard_A4]

That was what I was thinking too.

[@Dennis-vh8tz]

Though, in the end, it wasn't Steve who's actions were questionable.

[@heydonray]

@@Dennis-vh8tz I think you missed something. The scenario is a bit hard to follow but yeah, it was “Steve”, who’s real name I know from folks who are thoroughly informed and who rec’d training on the foul up so as not to repeat it.

[@Andrew-13579]

@@heydonray What foul up? I’m missing it too. “Steve” is “wing” RIO, right? I listened to this a few times, and I never caught anything that “Steve” did at all, other than apparently fire a Sparrow from 4 miles which blew up one of the MiG-23’s (1200 kts closure is 1 nm every 3 seconds). That was after lead RIO fired two Sparrows at the other MiG, that didn’t guide, apparently. And then, finally, lead pilot can’t figure out why he can’t get a Sidewinder tone. Switch misconfig , right? Flips switch, growl, tone, fire in like 2 seconds. Did he flip to SW with the trigger squeezed? Almost like, luckily the Sidewinder did just pickup the lock before it left the rail, right? But...what did “Steve” do wrong?? I’m just not tracking.

[@dl6519]

Despite having watched videos on these incidents many times before, I learned multiple big things about what was going on from this video that I was completely unaware of, one of which is this: If you want something explained clearly and thoroughly and succinctly, ask a RIO to explain it! AWESOME video, subscribed!

[@billscott356]

Once again, Ward, great analysis. I recall both of these incidents through the "right now" media. Through time you've been able to put out a great description of the events and describe how nuanced they are/were. Absolutely wonderful analysis! I appreciate that!

[@kiwidiesel]

That was a great listen thanks Ward. That tone for lock on would have to be one of the most chilling sounds I've ever heard, no mistaking the intent in the sound.

[@jamesjohnsen2021]

I found you on KZbin and now I see value in it. This particular video strikes close to home with me. You and I were both on the JFK at the same time. I was in VS-22 and flew a com relay mission while all of this was happening. Totally oblivious to what was going on not too far from where we were flying our racetrack and making sure the A-6s could communicate back to our ship. We received a briefing in the S-3 ready room from the four crew members involved. It was enlightening to non-fighter aircrew. I still have my copy of the gun camera video and soundtrack too.

[@Amar7605]

Wow... a very sobering analysis of the 1989 incident. For a lifelong Tomcat and military aviation buff, your story was a splash of cold water for me. Nevertheless, I really appreciate you telling us because it was very educational and thought-provoking. Thank you, Sir!

[@malleygz3991]

Same for me, but I serve in the military and specifically the Navy, so I'm not at all surprised by the facts of what actually happened. I'm sure the investigations into what happened, and associated missteps helped to refocus training, procedures, and operations.

[@shengyi1701]

They got too excited but good thing that the Libyans were not up for it as well!

[@tomusmc1993]

Holy smokes what a great inside contextual walk through. As a former active duty Marine, I well know reality differs from media version or civilian version. Awesome...

[@DSherman911]

I can’t begin to tell you how much I enjoy listening to you talk about the Navy and the Tomcat. Top Gun was such a huge influence on me at a young age. It’s awesome to hear about all of the intricacies and details that you experienced. More Tom Cat and aviation videos, please. Thank you.

[@guaporeturns9472]

If you want badass Tomcat stories you should research Iran’s Tomcat use. Iranian Tomcats were involved in much more combat than American ones. Maybe you already know this.

[@DSToNe19and83]

@@guaporeturns9472 hey, if I was them I’d make good use of those bad boys too!

[@guaporeturns9472]

@@DSToNe19and83 they have been kicking ass with them for years.. not sure if they are still in service or not .. getting kinda old and they have to fabricate all their own spare parts these days.

[@arnie24070127]

Hey Mooch, as a student of combat in general (given my previous profession) it is absolutely fascinating listening to you break these down. I know you're a tomcat guy but could you do more like this? Talking about TTP, theoretical to practical application there of, and engagements in general. Doesn't have to be modern. Sort of a Mooch's dogfights show.

[@trumanhw]

Yup ... I didn't realize that the RIO not only manages but controls (makes the decisions) re: weapons.

[@sc1784]

Great explanation of those two events. I have watched the tapes before, but getting the play-by-play made it understandable. Nice job Ward.

[@leonardmoore2833]

Ward, really enjoy these post mortems. I was a RIO with VF-51 Screaming Eagles back in the early 90's. I knew about the pilot's switchology issue, but didn't know about the TWS delay causing the incorrect interpretation of the bogey's vector until I saw your video. Very cool. An idea for a sea story: Recall that Bug Roach had a Mae West parachute when he ejected from an A-4 back around '93. He was an LSO legend around Miramar, and his was a tragic loss. I'd like to hear more about how that happened. Thanks and keep up the good work! Lenny "Lipo" Moore.

[@williamhcollins2010]

Hey Ward, I was an S-3 NFO during this time on a PACFLEET carrier at the time. Had a buddy on on staff whom told me the whole story as well. Thanks for going into great detail!

[@WardCarroll]

You're welcome, William.

[@roberthedman894]

I was a member of VF-41 from 1988-1991. I really have been enjoying the videos on your channel! Thank you for all you have done and continue to do!

[@clemrod3273]

I've watched this video several times, never had it explained like you did. Thank you enjoyed it very much!

[@WardCarroll]

Thanks for watching, Robert.

[@clemrod3273]

@@WardCarroll I served on USS Saratoga was a MR2. Machinery Repairman. Did a med cruise in 92.

[@mightyjimbo7681]

I've listened to the 1989 incident comms many times but thanks for putting everything in context. It make more sense now.

[@Void304]

I've seen this footage several times, and I understand enough brevity that I've been able to follow along, but I've never had someone who really understands what happened walk me through it before. Thanks.

[@landrum3893]

Excellent. BEST analysis of the Sidra incidents Ive ever heard. I was aboard the Kennedy for the '89 incident as an AT for VA-75 an A-6E squadron. It was a surreal time. Over the 1MC, we heard them announce scramble 2 more F-14s (Ive forgotten the exact words) so there were the 2 F-14s already out there and 2 more on the way but it all happened so fast. In the following hours and days we were all thinking that there could be further action of some kind. Anyway, very interesting and revealing analysis. Facepalms and funny banter between the pilot and RIO. Thank you, sir

[@thomasgray9934]

Mr. Carrol...I Really enjoyed this video. I was a PR in the early 90's. I had the honor of serving with VF-41 and VF-102 as the PR Shop LPO. When I was with VF-102, my Skipper was the RIO you describe as "Steve" in your video. He was a great skipper. I also had the honor of caring for Capt. Copeland's flight gear while on board USS America for our Med Cruise. Working for two "Mig Killers" was an honor I didn't take lightly. My skipper even showed me his log book from the 89 shoot down where the entries were marked in red. I really enjoy your videos. It really takes me back to the glory days of serving in Tomcat Squardons. Bravo Zulu Shipmate...

[@burprobrox9134]

Wow glad I found this channel. Growing up in the 80s the Tomcat was my obsession haha. Watched Top Gun a trillion times, had a ton of models, no chance of being a pilot due to some health issues, but always loved it. I’m really happy to hear your stories, thanks for sharing.

[@ame01]

I was glued to my seat for both. Thanks for the stories. They’re riveting.

[@jimvincenti2324]

Thank you for the real time recollections of these combat missions and thank you for your service to this great country of ours!

[@xenozombie6200]

I've read a lot about the Gulf of Sidra incidents, but this is a whole new perspective. Thank you.

[@WardCarroll]

You’re welcome, Xeno! Thanks for watching!

[@greggutting1796]

Fast Eagle 102, from the 1981 incident, is on static display at the Midland Army Air Field Museum, Midland, TX. The plane captain at the time of the incident, J.R. Baxter, is one of a group of flight deck veterans who did a cosmetic restoration a few years ago. Dave Venlet, along with some folks from the Nimitz, attended the unveiling after the restoration.

[@ajchenmph]

Trivia: at the time of the shootdown, 102 had the XO's name painted on it (he subsequently became skipper of VF-41), who became my NROTC CO in 1992-1993. He likes to say the shootdown happened 5 minutes too early, as he was inbound to relieve Kleeman and "Music". I've kept in touch with him over the years, and was able to catch up with him about 5 years ago while I was TDY/TAD in his area, where he told me exactly what happened with Kleeman's mishap (I've since forgotten all the details). He is still doing pretty well overall (had an email exchange with him about 6 months before the pandemic).

[@greggutting1796]

She has Cdr Hank Kleeman as pilot and Lt Dave Venlet as RIO. Names painted along bottom of cockpit. I have a photo, but don’t know how to post it.

[@ajchenmph]

Makes sense since they were flying it that day. But carrier tradition is that the CAG has his/her name painted on 100, the squadron CO on 101, and the squadron XO on 102. And then you fly whatever bird you're assigned that day, not necessarily "your" jet.

[@get2dachoppa249]

Wasn't Kleemans accident something to do with hydroplaning on landing, the aircraft departed the runway, & flipped upside down?

[@ajchenmph]

@@get2dachoppa249 - yep, combined with a gear malfunction or something else that wasn't right with the jet. Again, forget the details.

[@WTF....1982]

Never once heard this version of the incident. THANK YOU FOR TELLING US THE TRUTH!

[@georgeo929]

I’m so glad that I stumbled onto one of your videos. I’m former navy and in a navy family and I’m old enough to know who VF84 was and I also know that VF41 was their sister squadron. I’m now subscribed on your channel. Keep the stories coming I enjoy watching you tell them from a much different perspective.

[@earl2688]

I enjoy your commentary. As a former AWG-10 fire control tech, it's interesting to hear you talk about the AWG-9 and then compare the two in my mind (I always wondered why the older jet had the AWG-10 designation and the newer one got the AWG-9). Loved the multi-scan mode of that AWG-9 and would have enjoyed working on that but as a Marine, that was not to be. I noticed that the F-14 weapons select on the stick is different than the F-4J/S and in any event an F-4 pilot would not have missed the fox-2 call -- because he would be the one pulling the trigger (since the RIO on the Phantom couldn't fire any missiles). I'd seen a raw video on that 1989 Gulf of Sidra shootdown previously and I remember hearing the call for "master arm on" and recollecting instantly where that switch was on the instrument panel of the F-4 (covered with a red hinged latch if memory serves) and knowing that war had just been declared!

[@andyfisher1911]

Ward once again a great explanation of the two incidents, especially the second one, which l always thought was very confusing! Now l’m very clear of what actually happened. Thank you, keep up the great work!

[@WardCarroll]

Thanks, Andy!

[@mikecoolack7870]

I was onboard the USS Nimitz in AIMD IM 2 division jet shop during the first encounter with Liba. Brings back memories. Like your channel, especially your discussions on my favorite bird the F 14. I tested the TF 30 P414 A/ TF 41/T 58 and J 52 for years on that carrier. I also got the chance to test the first GE Tomcat motor at Norfolk jet engine test facility before leaving the aviation community in 1988. The other birds that I tested were the T56 ,P8 and 408 in the P3 Orion/E-2 C Hawkeye. I was also stationed at willowgrove PA and Naval air station Brunswick ME. Keep up the great work with your channel. Respectfully. AD2 Mike Coolack USN Retired

[@hangtime_31]

It's one thing to watch the news about these incidents on TV right after the events and quite another to have an experienced person such as yourself take the time to calmly and professionally break them down and explain the what and why of them. I found this very educational. Thank you for you service.

[@MaxSterling01]

I remember that CNN did a broadcast when they got the video. Breaking story and all that. They didn't preview the tape before putting it on air. First round you got the "I don't have a F^&king lock" next time it was bleeped. LMAO.

[@budone7449]

Amazing explanation of what actually happened!!! Thank you also for serving our country!!!! We The people would not be...without your service!!!! God bless you!!

[@CallsignJoNay]

That's really interesting about the TWS anomaly. I didn't know about that. Great breakdown, thanks for the video. Keep the Tomcat content coming!

[@biscoloco]

This is awesome, love the break down. Listened to this engagement multiple times. This is the first time I’ve had another flier discuss the incident.

[@richardgeorge179]

Was onboard USS Nimitz as a jet mech with the Black Aces when the 1981 shoot down happened. I was assigned to the jet shop (AIMD)so I also worked on engines for the Jolly Rogers too.

[@acsxfan1]

Richard -- another Nimitz sailor .. worked up in weather shop -- do you remember the GQ they called after this happened?

[@richardgeorge179]

@@acsxfan1 Yes I do because the Chief told us to "Tie down the coffee pot "and if we got the right story the aircraft were friendly from the other carrier that was operating with us.

[@acsxfan1]

@@richardgeorge179 Thats the way I understood it as well . I think it might have been Saratoga ..

[@richcook2007]

I was in S-2 when this happened.

[@toddf9321]

@@acsxfan1 USS Forrestal CV-59 at your service! Took station to the South while Nimitz steamed to the Northwest at an unbelievable speed. We stayed at GQ for 12 hours (Battle messing has to be experienced!).

[@jimpalmer1969]

I've heard this story from another pilot who was flying off the Kennedy that day. My brother was an A-6 driver in VMA-533. His part of the mission was to act as the bait to trick the Migs to be sortied. He showed me the full air camera video that you showed clips from. He was very critical of this whole escapade. My older brother was an AQ in VA-165 (USS Constellation), my younger brother was a pilot in VMA-533 (USS Kennedy) and I was an ADJ in VA-52 (USS Kitty Hawk). Funny how we all wound up in A-6s. Thanks for the detail. It filled in the blanks. I will share this with my brother.

[@WardCarroll]

Thanks, Jim. Both my father and father in law flew A-6s too.

[@12Agonzo]

Clemann didn't die taxiing. He was landing at Miramar during the early days of the F/A-18. He was CO of VXE-9 out of Mugu at the time and doing Evals of the Hornet. There was an issue with the Hornet's landing gear that this accident identified. The rain puddled on 24R and the gear problem caused the plane to get sideways, it hit the mud on the edge of the runway, the right main mount dug into the mud and it flipped over. The accident actually broke his neck. I worked for COMFIT, RADM NEWMAN, who owned Miramar at the time and had to run over and pick him up at the dentist and to get him over to the recovery of this Class A accident. A sad and unfortunate thing that happened to a great aviator.

[@antiskell]

Only a thumbs up for the info ... rip that dude

[@1truemoose]

Thank you for the information.

[@Andrew-13579]

So where does the story come from that he died taxiing? Disappointing that it gets told wrong. I’m not blaming the channel author, here; because maybe he got bad info, too. Too bad CDR Kleemann didn’t pull the ejection handle and get out when it went sideways. But maybe he already knew he was going to flip and didn’t want to be shot into the mud.

[@LuvBorderCollies]

@@Andrew-13579 "The Rumor Mill"

[@vtwinbuilder3129]

His name is spelled “Kleeman” though....

[@Geneusmc]

Mooch, I really enjoy your channel. I served in the Marines from 68-72 as a Sergeant working on F4-J AWG-10 Fire Control Systems, my last squadron was VMFA-232 before their last tour in Vietnam. I loved what I did, but I am sorry to say not every Marine did. We had a hanger queen with a down radar that no one could fix for nearly 3-months. I had heard it had been sabotaged by a short timer so I decided I will troubleshoot the radar around the clock until it was repaired. The Westinghouse tech rep and I worked on this bird for days. Finally, as we scoped every signal in and out of the system, I discovered that one side of a connector in the receiver tracking logic had a good signal, but on the other side of the connector it did not. The SOB that sabotaged the system had reversed two coax cables. He is fortunate I did not know his name else I would have contacted the CID long ago. The radar came up, we up’d the aircraft, and she flew a sortie the very next day. Whoever you are I hope you see this post, you failed, that aircraft flew many missions after you tried to sabotage it. I have just one question for you - WHY?

[@jawarapittman6889]

You may never know, someone will out that guy.

[@Brandon_SoMD]

I had the pleasure of working with LT 'DJ' Venlet when he was a test pilot. (He retired as a Rear Admiral.) DJ was the back-seater of one of the F-14s from the first pair of kills. He actually got upgraded from F-14 RIO to F-14 pilot after the incident. He was a great guy, and one of the best pilots I've ever known, for his integrity and personal character and how excellently he treated everyone. We heard these stories from him firsthand. Amazing.

[@richsanchez622]

I enjoy your channel very much. I have no experience in the military or aviation for that matter. I appreciate men like you very much. My brother was a door gunner on a helicopter in the late 60’s in Vietnam. He never talks about it. And my Dad was a US marine that fought on Iwo Jima . I really had no idea what that really meant until I started reading the accounts of the battles he must have been in. Thanks for your service and the education.

[@ibbylancaster8981]

Very cool video. I remember both incidents. I’m sure many others would love to hear some good boat stories. Maybe a Tomcat incident that scared the snot out of you. Close calls. Funny things. What your deployments were like , things like that. I really do enjoy the Tomcat stories as well. Thank you for it all. 🇺🇸

[@chrisgrable5319]

Two great stories Ward. Have been hearing ABOUT these engagements for years but have never heard either story start to finish! Thanks!

[@nickclark9240]

Hi Ward. I love your channel, great information always. I have a question on the Libyan ops. In 1979, I was the enlisted sensor operator on the S-3A Viking. My squadron (VS-33, North Island) was deployed aboard the USS America. Many of our S-3 sorties in the Med were into the Gulf of Sidra to draw out the Libyan fighters. In subsequent engagements when the Libyans were shot down, were any S-3s used as decoys? I can't begin to tell you how exciting it was being a 20 year old kid and being involved with such historic events. I later went on to become a WSO in RF-4Cs and F-111Fs, with the Statue of Libya Raiders (48th TFW) at RAF Lakenheath. Thanks for all you do, and thank you for your service!!!

[@shaunmcdaniels2460]

Thank you for the video!!!! I like how you break it down step by step!!! It makes it easy to follow and understand what is happening…. Thanks again!!

[@kilianortmann9979]

Thank you so much for this video, since I heard of this incident, I tried to wrap my head around this. I've watched it on the history channel and looked at diagrams and public reports and the geometry never quite made sense to me. Your insight let me finally lay this puzzle to rest, sometimes highly intelligent people can be their own worst enemy

[@WardCarroll]

Thanks, Killian.

[@bghammock]

Oooo! I've always wondered about the details of this incident but never got motivated enough to look into it. '86 incident that is. Thanks Ward! This is becoming one of my favorite channels.

[@WardCarroll]

Thanks for watching, Barry! Lots of episodes in the hopper, so stay tuned! And tell your friends!

[@CHECK6-963]

We lost Paul Lorence and Fernando Ribas Dominicci in the Libya raid in 86. The raid itself was Operation El Dorado Canyon.

[@WardCarroll]

@@CHECK6-963 RIP, mates.

[@bghammock]

@@CHECK6-963 Thanks. Reading about that on airforcemag.com. The only thing I knew about it before was that was the first time I really heard about the F-111 and remember thinking it was a MEAN looking aircraft.

[@geoffreytudor5674]

Great analysis of a (remembered) historical incident. I liked the stop-go vocal record and analysis; you can really feel Leo ramping up the tension (hey, I'd have been hyperventilating). Always good to have a better grasp of the details, and you do a fine job.

[@conatives2]

Great stuff! As a Naval Aircrewman (S3 Viking) on cruise in VS-37 (1989), I heard this play out on cruise... I never heard this breakdown until today! I always wondered about the “weapons yellow” call from AB, and subsequent launch. Super informative, super interesting!

[@WardCarroll]

Thanks, Stephen.

[@ricardotomascaballero2238]

Dr. Ricardo Caballero - I've listened to few of you presentations and I'm very well impressed! You talk like a proud pro and I like that!!! I was an Airline Pilot in Aerolineas Argentinas in my capacity as a First Officer on board the Boeing 737-200 Advanced, when the South Atlantic Conflict with Great Britain broke out in 1982. A few 737s and the reserve Officer pilots were chosen to join the Argentine Air Force Tactical Military Transport Wing in order to deploy ground forces in the Malvinas Islands (known as Falklands to the British). I had a Military Rank as a Lieutenant in the Reserve so I was called to duty with other military background pilots. Those days were days of high intensity and dedicated professional performance in the war zone. Some of the attack missions that were carried out by other classmates in the Argentine Air Force are absolutely mind blowing!!!!! I am proud of having served my country. The workhorse of the Navy and Air Force was the old and venerable Douglas A-4 Skyhawk that flown by the text book, pushed to its maximum capacity by pilots that were totally committed to overcome the third world military power in the World in 1982. By the way, none were "suicide missions”!!!! Not at all! Knowing the real facts will make any fighter pilot really proud...!!!!!!

[@WardCarroll]

Amazing story, Ricardo. Thanks for sharing it here.

[@ricardotomascaballero2238]

@@WardCarroll Thank you for your videos and the excellent technical and human sharing of the events. One further comment regarding the 1982 Conflict with the UK. The reason why the Argentine NAVY pilots were so effective in the South Atlantic OPS is twofold: 1. they were superbly qualified with the USN Aviation standards for carrier OPS and tactics and weapons delivery and 2. The Navy pilots knew the South Atlantic Ocean like the palms of their hands!!!! They carried the USN training syllabus for the A-4Qs into the AMD Super Etendard armed with the Exocet Sea skimming missiles. Argentina was the first Latin American country to include two British built aircraft carriers in its inventory since 1958…! My email is: [e-mail] It will be terrific to exchange experiences. "Keep the blue side up"

[@tjminasi1442]

Ward, bold to tell these tales honestly no matter community opinion. Tons of respect to you.

[@RockinRobbins13]

I'll bet community opinion is fairly aligned with Ward's. But they're not like You Tube snipers and use the judgments as cautionary tales for themselves while maintaining respect for the fliers in the incident. The community is very aware that if they were in the same circumstance, unless they learn, they themselves may make the same decision for the same reasons.

[@sixstringedthing]

I would hope that most people watching this channel understand that facts don't care about feelings, but I also have a lot of respect for Mooch being such a straight shooter.

[@RockinRobbins13]

@@sixstringedthing Just keep in mind that Mooch being an honest straight shooter, which he is, doesn't mean that he's right 100% of the time. He's honest in telling us what his opinion of events is, and he's uniquely positioned to be right more often than he is wrong.

[@Bat21bravo]

I was AO/WESPAC 1981/G-1 DIV/WEAPONS DEPT/CV-64. We had large buttons made that showed a pic of an AIM-9 Sidewinder. Button said : NAVY - 2, Libya - 0. Just seemed to make it all worth while. Your teaching skills are top notch Commander. FLY NAVY.

[@firebythewater4477]

Shortly after this incident, a local radio station dj used real audio from the pilots of the F14's and Kenny Loggins Danger Zone song and compiled it beautifully. Wish I had a copy of it today!!!

[@PacificAirPhoto1]

This is an entirely different perspective on the 2nd GoS incident, one I’d never heard. Thank you so much for providing such expert analysis and clarity!

[@hogie9]

I loved this one Ward! Super interesting accounts of both incidents

[@terrythornock6468]

WOWSA KAPOWSA!!!!! What an awesome briefing!!!! Thank you so much for the wonderful presentation yet again!!!!

[@Bushy_P]

Love the Synopsis of the incidents from a RIO of that time. Always nice to hear what the community thought.

[@TheRandseed]

Ward, I've watched this for literally 25 or 30 years. You just explained a lot of stuff that I either didn't know or that I completely messed up. Keep flyin', man.

[@swspph]

Just found you and I love It. Been a Tomcat fan for over twenty years.

[@EvilWhiteGuy7.62]

Glad I found this Channel... While I have no experience in Aviation,the guy who lived next door When i was 13-15, was a f16 pilot with the 308th Emerald knights out of Luke. Code name raptor, first name Scott. Anyway he got me in the f16 SIM and let me go threw a few take offs and maneuvers...I used to watch his dog when he was away. Very nice guy. took me through their whole office, briefing room, lockers, flight deck, maintenance yard, ECT.... He actually made cap. And moved to Belgium to train their pilots

[@CMIKAEL1172]

Awesome video - learned a lot. I like to study MiG-killers. The F-4 and F-14 are my two favorite fighters in history. Look forward to more videos.

[@w7nw]

I was a student at the Air Command and Staff College in the fall of 1981 and we had the crew come and give a classified briefing to our class.Really enjoying your channel

[@mxcollin95]

I love this channel! Keep up the great work Ward! I’ve watched this engagement several times and after you explained it I never would’ve guessed all that was going on...super interesting. 👍

[@ronnieeubanks6559]

Gotta say these stories of historical events are awesome to hear. Thank for your service sir! 🙏

[@lancet.346]

I can tell I will be watching this video several times-fascinating stuff.

[@WardCarroll]

Appreciate it, Lance.

[@Hawkerdude67]

I have to say..to a man...Navy guys are just great to fly with. I'm sure I've flown with many of your buds out of my BWI base. Pilots just love talking about flying and it really helps pass the time. LUV your stuff! Keep it up!!

[@cmphighpower]

I got to sit in the admirals chair aboard the Saratoga in December 89. I was stationed on a MSO and an OS1 gave me a tour of the ship. Cool as hell

[@greatgandalf5233]

Ward good videos, really bring back memories! My dad was an exchange USMC NFO /RIO and taught Britain Radar Intercept/Night Intercepts to the Royal Airforce. He had the most Red Hours(Than most Aviators) Three tours in Vietnam had a toll on my father and he died a year after Retirement, 33 years of heroic flight. He motivated me to become a NFO and NATOPs / Mission Commander/ Nuclear Safety Officer offered Weapons Tactics Instructor it the Top Gun for Attack Pilots to stay in the USMC. I had lost 40% of flight class to A6E accidents. My call sign was Gandalf and I flew for VMA-242 Bats. I could of been a pilot, Three Star General was my over watch because my dad saved his life twice. I became a A6E Bombardier/ Navigator NFO most in the respect I had for my dad. Col Austin O Gandy, My name Brett Gandy(The man Moscow fears the most)

[@jawarapittman6889]

You and your late father are VERY COOL.

[@johnemmert9012]

Interested to see that the fighter community is way more self critical than Top Gun would have you believe.

[@Mugdorna]

Having read a few books on the program. Criticism and analysis of aerial actions certainly appears to be 2nd nature to those guys

[@thethirdman225]

No, I think it's more than what the public - particularly the anoraks - would have you believe. Yes: fighter pilots are an aggressive lot but they're not just idiots, whanging around the sky shooting things down at random. I'll always remember Pierre Clostermann's criteria for judging the German _Experten_ he came up against: _"Both prudent and sure of themselves..."_

[@rockriver2652]

Top Gun and The Right Stuff are caricatures of the real thing. (But I still enjoy the movies immensely!)

[@sixstringedthing]

I guess the high-fives and back slaps are to be expected in what was basically a recruitment/PR tool. Good to know that things aren't quite so gung-ho in real life.

[@OpenCarryUSMC]

There are Top Gun the movie times as well. Can't remember how many times we helped the pilots up the Hornet ladder and the first thing they did was gang load the O2 to clear their hang overs. Or the time the skipper was drunk as a skunk on a street in Olongapo while half the pilots and RIO's (equally as inebriated) surround him less than 8 hours before the flight schedule began. Yeah, they'll analyze the hell out of an incident but they still pull stupid shit.

[@frostyrobot7689]

This is absolute gold, Ward. I'm old enough to remember this at the time and that there was apparently some controversy over the shootdown. Then, a good few years ago now, I saw the tape, and while some of it was obscure, I obviously trusted that the lead Rio's calls on the bogey's movements were watertight. Your comprehensive and dry-witted analysis certainly helped clear a lot of that up. Thanks.

[@DesertPunks]

Always appreciative of the content you give us, I never knew there was a first incident involving VF-41 and SU-22s.

[@juancho420]

Yup the previous day they were going up against MiG-25s.

[@dangerweaponry9235]

Love hearing these stories from the real deal guys. Could listen all day long. Thank you for all you have done. Even though my favorite fighter is the F16...

[@1truemoose]

"Hank" Kleemann was my cousin. From what I was told about the accident that killed him, he was serving as a test pilot for something new on the F-18 - maybe an antilock braking system. It malfunctioned and locked up, causing the accident. Anything you could add would be appreciated. Earlier in his career he had flown F4's in the Vietnam war and served as a test pilot for the Navy's acceptance program for the F14. He graduated from the Naval Academy in 1968 or so.

[@jackcook6644]

He was the CO of VX-4 at NAS Pt Mugu. Capt Kleeman's landing may not have been sufficiently firm enough to actuate the squat switches to the FBW system. In the F-18 the flight control surfaces move at a certain "inflight" rate of movement, giving it the excellent maneuverability it has. On landing, squat switches on the main drag links engage, and any movement of the stick moves the control surfaces in the "ground" mode, or about 3/4 less than the flight mode. If one makes a soft touchdown in the jet to where the squats don't engage, and then deflects a control surface (countering a crosswind for example), the resultant control surface movement is enough to roll the jet over at touchdown speeds, that's what happened in Kleeman's case. One of his mistakes was that by "habit" he utilized rudder for runway alignment corrections. In the F18 this is a Grave mistake to make, even conducting an aerobrake procedure to bleed airspeed before putting the nose down. Floating the runway surface and the High Lift of the Flaps and wing configuration will keep the FLCS in the Hi YAW,PITCH/Roll Config. But the aircraft is not flying it is Creating drag in the Air Compression between the Wings and the Runway surface. on crosswinds this is deadly. this is why in the F18 Aerobraking is a Mistake in Cross wind or direct into the win component landings. It should only be used in the event of a Brake Failure. In a non cable equipped airfield. Miramar is not far from the San Diego Coast and the airfield always has a 10-30 knot wind coming across the west runway. The landing was normal until about three thousand feet feet down the runway when braking was apparently initiated and hydroplaning ensues immediately. The airplane began to drift right, departed the runway at a speed of about 72 knots whereupon the right main mount settled into the soft, wet earth. The airplane began to swerve farther to the right as the left main mount entered the earth and the right wingtip dug into the ground. The airplane flipped inverted and came to a halt upside down and heading in a direction roughly 320 degrees with the engines running and the canopy separated from the fuselage. All of this occured very rapidly, and the tower operator immediately went into action issuing the warnings over the radio and telephone and rolling the crash trucks. The first crash truck arrived at the airplane at 9:11. They found the pilots helmeted head jammed into the soft earth with a mixture of rainwater and jet fuel filling up the depression it had made. There were several serious concerns which the crash crews needed to consider. There was the presence of leaking jet fuel and two engines still running, an ejection seat which had been arrested in mid ejection sequence and still ready to explode as well as an injured pilot whom they had to extricate from an airplane which was crushing him into the earth. But, they determined that the pilot was alive after the ambulance reached the scene at 09:22. The crane arrived at 09:30 to lift the airplane and extricate the pilot. Meanwhile, being unable to reach the engine throttles, the crash crew extinguished the engines with water. By 10:00 the seat was made safe by an escape systems technician. Six minutes later the airplane was lifted clear of the ground and the pilot removed. At 10:31 the pilot was pronounced dead. Cause of death was determined to be a transected spinal chord which occurred at impact with the ground. Natops warns against using aerodynamic braking in a high cross wind situation and Capt Kleeman had a habit of doing this. I believe he was fairly new to the F-18 (checking out when he assumed command of VX-4) having flown F-4s & F-14s during his career. A very sad day in Naval Aviation.

[@1truemoose]

@@jackcook6644 Thanks for the information.

[@Andrew-13579]

Well, he definitely wasn’t taxiing, it was a landing accident...or mishap. From what I’ve learned, including from this channel, use of rudder was important in the F-4 and F-14. The F/A-18 was just an all different kind of animal, I guess.

[@wrmyers]

Then LCDR Kleeman was my Maintenance Officer, MO, in VF-32 in the late 70s.

[@1truemoose]

@@wrmyers Thanks for responding.

[@andynewcombe9944]

Former UK military, and i absolutely love listening to you, and your stories.

[@harleyxl2001]

I was on a Cruiser with the NIMITZ BG during the 1981 event. It was pretty scary from our standpoint.

[@CRAGG66]

Fantastic videos I watched the F111s fly from RAF lakenheath to go to the war in Iraq day and night sorties.

[@robertmitchell8728]

Good, or bad, the truth needs to be heard. Only then can we learn real lessons. And not repeat the mistakes of the past.

[@tylerbrass4002]

These are great. I have been looking through your library of videos, and really appreciate your insight into these incidents, so many of them I have heard about, and seen the footage, or even recreations, but you really get into it, and explain exactly what happened down to the details. Your perspective, and wealth of knowledge is much appreciated.

[@unclerojelio6320]

Thanks for the blow-by-blow. The one thing that strikes me is just how much "in command" the RIO appears to be in this action. Here I was thinking the pilot was always the one in command.

[@chucksevola2424]

Yes, me too. I was shocked. It seemed like the pilot was along for the ride. I didn’t know an NFO could just decide to launch on his own initiative.

[@taylorc2542]

He wasn't "in command"; his lack of composure escalated the situation far beyond what it should have been. It shows how being wound too tight can make everyone stupid.

[@Stubbies2003]

@@chucksevola2424 OK I'm just going to assume that you don't know much about flight safety for the services. Ward did cover this in the story. There is a Master Arm/Safe switch in the F-14 like all other fighters and with it in the safe position the RIO cannot shoot anything at all. The RIO doesn't have the MA switch only the pilot does.

[@palm7films158]

Lots of important context on this famous incident. Neutral, factual and analytical - much needed. Thanks

[@stevewilliams688]

Throughly enjoyed the F-14 walk around. Even as an ex instructor of the F-14 at NAMTRA in Oceania, I learned a few things. I often wonder what happened to the training mock-ups that used. Lots of fun stories of instructor duty, AVCM John Butler, and Famous Amos. Hit me up some time for details.

[@derekenlow7607]

Does that go for anyone. I'm extremely intrigued by this plane. I've never seen one in person or flown in any planes, I've only learned from documentaries such as this. I have so many questions. One being. In a flat spin, if there's enough altitude would a pilot be able to point the nose of the plane down, gain forward air speed, roll out and regain control.

[@stevewilliams688]

@@derekenlow7607 I taught various systems on the F14. Ive got no flight experience at all but thought the author might know a couple of the Master Chiefs from that community. Read a great book about the last deployment of the F14, last of the Tomcats I believe. Although fiction, the details throughout the book gave me chills.

[@tomiossi8092]

Appreciate your insights. Veteran of FON 1981 Gulf of Sidra onboard USS Thorn DD-988 28:14 as EWOperator, attached to Forrestal 6th Fleet. You tell a story we’ll and really enjoyed to live action to go with hit. Not sure how you did that. Bravo

[@greatgandalf5233]

And my father was in the first NFO/RIO class and helped design the syllabus. He was became an officer after the class.

[@grovepeate3316]

You have really built this channel up ,always enjoy your videos.

[@WardCarroll]

Thank you very much!