Warhammer 40K isn't really satire.

[@GoobertownHobbies]

At a certain point, 40k fans are just unironically decorating their belongings with skulls, eagles, and crosses. There's obviously a BIG conversation to be had here, but to me it's pretty clear that GW tries to have it both ways. Sometimes 40k is satire... but mostly the fascists in blue and gold are the "good guys" so that grandma will buy stuff for little Nigel for christmas.

[@HellstormWargaming]

Very very well put.

[@GreenBlueWalkthrough]

I mean are they really fascist? in a way that Planet Sweden I mean super earth is undoudtly Americain? Like In the US the vast majorty of those who took an oath to uphold the constuin are indical to the Hell divers and US fans are too... Which 40k does a bad job at saying the imperum is the bad guys who us Britain as a airstrip... UI mean rape the galaxy and beat it's children when Chaos is so much worse... Like if Choas wins that it hell over the universe... Which why aren't the blueberries and golden man, the elves, the orks the t'ua on sunday the good guys again?

[@GoobertownHobbies]

@@GreenBlueWalkthrough "purging the unclean" within, xenophobia leading to endless war without, cult-like adherence to authoritarian figurehead, capitalist hives serving militarism... plus, you know, the eagles and skulls and crosses... yes, the imperium of man is fascist. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

[@GreenBlueWalkthrough]

Wait how are my bald egales and crosses nazi again?

[@GoobertownHobbies]

@@GreenBlueWalkthrough the aquila on every space marine is literally the symbol of the nazi party plus an extra beak, don't be obtuse.

[@CanonessEllinor]

40k is a thematic clusterfuck, but it’s OUR thematic clusterfuck.

[@filthygreenname3535]

Watch out for Ghazgkull Mag-Urak Thraka. His waaagh might shut down some coal mines or whatever.

[@jaredwasserman1092]

I don't have a problem with the fact that 40k isn't satire. As long as folks don't see the Imperium as aspirational.

[@Machiavelli2pc]

Current Imperium, absolutely not aspirational. The golden Era of the Imperium. *Maybe.*

[@jaredwasserman1092]

@@Machiavelli2pc M33-M34?

[@zerogravityhead1]

I think its a really compelling story because its not clear in terms of whats good and evil. Like most Sci-Fi stories are really just projections of our modern sensibilities. The rebels and star trek federations are just modern democratic societies but in the future. 40k is more interesting since its leans more into the hypothetical nature of sci fi, its more imaginative and less allegorical. Most stories depict authoritarianism as bad, and those who oppose it as good. But thats also the main political alignment of the west too, when we fight our enemies, its because their authoritarian, and we believe in freedom and democracy. So I think a lot of the anti-imperium sentiment is just that, a projection from our own modern sensibilities for setting that's completely different from our own modern world. I mean the morality of it isn't so complicated, its just the same lesser evil type thinking we see in our own world all the time too. But I like seeing it on its own terms, its a universe thats very different from the real one we actually live in, so it makes sense that the rules it operates by are very different from our own.

[@cbpoppet1288]

It's the eternal disconnect between GW's creative and marketing departments. A traditional hero/villain narrative is easier to market, than a more complex satirical one. The left hand not understanding what the right hand is doing has existed since Rogue Trader, a game designed as a skirmish game, played with between 10 to 20 models. But Citadel sold plastic marines in a box of 30, Squats 32 of and Guard 36 of.

[@MissLeafi]

That's so true for so many aspects of GW lol

[@FacesNBases]

Great discussion and great article by Tim again. I think the fact that people still don't get the satire from things such as Robocop, Starship Troopers and Helldivers reflects on the people rather than the franchise. People will choose to how to enjoy a product as is comfortable for them. This dips into the conversations about people playing as fascist factions in historical games. I think it's a natural human mechanism to sometimes disconnect from the grim truth of the real world to just mentally get by some days. From intensive farming to warzones we are aware of the horrors and cruelty but can't realistically fixate on them 24/7. Is there a place in 40k to really explore the darkness of the Imperium? Yes. Does it have to be in every facet of the hobby? I don't believe so myself. Top vid. Top content.

[@Deadjim17]

I still don't understand how people can't see Starship troopers as a satire. Me an my friends watched this when we were at a friends 10th birthday (their mum was super cool with us seeing boobs). We had a blast and all understood it was not serious.

[@HellstormWargaming]

Media literacy died in the early noughties. The only explanation

[@Luis519RS]

People see what they want to see. Specially when the truth is something they disagree with. They can see it, but refuse to see it.

[@Reaver102]

Frankly, the movie kind of messes it up. The regime in starship troopers has a more honest media than we do, at no point does the media we're shown lie to us. The leadership has more accountability than we do, the Star Marshal actually resigns when they colossally mess up on Klendathu. I'd say the only thing the movie got right for a dictatorship was the different levels of citizenship for its inhabitants.

[@SmartKidofTrains]

@@HellstormWargaming Haha Yeah.. kinda? I mean... can't 40k be multi-layered? Like it's satire on some levels and not satire on others? I'd say it's better and more interesting setting this way - more nuanced and complicated, more different tropes and themes mixed... as long as they blend in well together, the more the better? I kinda like it better when it's 'blended' like that tbf......but then it seems some people are having troubles telling which level is which apparently? Or with understanding that one thing can be many things at the same time, doesn't have to be just 100% serious OR 100%satire? ALSO: even if you portray a certain political system in a serious way (i.e. not a satire), it doesn't necessarily mean you support it, right? I mean it's fiction not a political philosophy manifesto? Are people seriously having issues understanding that nowadays? Or am I missing something?

[@iExploder]

The movie Starship Troopers was a satire per Verhoeven. The book Starship Troopers, however, was actually written in full support of the kind of society depicted in it and to convey Heinlein's vision for same.

[@MissLeafi]

I agree. It's not a satire at all anymore. It's just a very dark setting now. It just takes itself way too seriously to be actual satire lol

[@HellstormWargaming]

They try. They’re just bad at making it obvious

[@announcerofgames7754]

Remember guys, Super Earth made the bugs that can go invisible and somehow, NOT NAMING NAMES! They got out.

[@jaqssmith1666]

Wait... that sounds like undemocratic sedition to me...

[@matthewl6158]

I have mixed feelings on this one Mikey. There was a good discussion here and I generally agree. Imo, 40k has always had the combo of satirical moments, flavour and stories against very serious last stands that you are meant to take seriously. The Last Stand of the Crimson Fists is from 3rd/4th edition and has always been the serious and epic last stand that it was. The RT era had lots of silliness but also some pretty gnarly art and serious moments as well. I think this can be traced to it's influences. Dune is very serious and has the God-Emperor with foresight who has a Great Plan to save Humanity by mass genocide. This text is to be treated seriously and the questions of 'Is it worth being a genocidal tyrant to save humanity' and 'Is this future path or vision even true?'. 40k yoinks this and gives the exact same conundrum to the Emps in 30k and Guilliman in 40k. 40k also has some serious discussions about what it means to be a God. I think it is ok and to treat it seriously although I think that GW is lacking in the execution at the moment. It has the insurmountable odds which forces people to consider the genocidal actions but hasn't spent enough time with the important characters showing that it's 'bad'. Primarchs returning are clearly unhappy with the state of the Imperium but the question of 'should it exist' and what it's alternatives are isn't really explored properly. I'm hoping that conflict between Primarchs returning on how to handle the Imperium will cause conflict that explores this. I am 99% sure that is just hopium though haha. We still have Ciaphis Cain which clearly takes the piss and is satirical in much the same manner as Helldivers. I do think that Helldivers is an interesting contrast point to The Imperium. Helldivers is much more modern USA coded which I think is easier to pick up on. The classic warcry in Helldivers of 'For Democracy!' vs the 40k one of 'For the God-Emperor!' both have a similar form. Both characters shouting it are doing so wholeheartedly and they are both shouting their support for horrific regimes. The biggest difference here is that cries of Democracy, Liberty and Freedom is all stuff we see everyday with the USA world police while they invade people. Cries for the God-Emperor requires you to know who the God-Emperor is and why he sucks. In this way 40k is plays with the idea that 'What if everyone decided they love facism and embraced the language of it' whereas Helldivers is 'what if we continued doing the evil shit we do today while still keeping the same USA branding.' The latter is much more obvious to people as they are surrounded by it their whole life but that doesn't mean the latter isn't satirising the same thing (full throated support of genocide in the name of an fascist government). To me it feels a bit like the dry British humour vs American humour. It's a tough one alright. I personally am more of a fan of the light hearted and silly 40k. The HH was the antithesis to that and while I enjoyed it as a Space Opera/Greek tragedy it didn't feel satirical at all after the first few books. I think 40k has swung pretty hard and that direction as well. Except since 40k hasn't been end timed yet the tragedy is yet to occur. We are eternally in a 'fuck around' stage but since there hasn't been a 'find out' it doesn't hit as hard.

[@WoodImp]

The World of Tiers cover looks like a guy taking a leak on a tree and I can't be convinced otherwise

[@amaagumo1036]

since tyranids was a main talking point for this one. I bet the way to have it be satirical but still let them be a exotic, extragalactic nom nom threat is if the imperium is preventing the rest of the factions from banding together to defeat something that's manageable. And it would be funny if it was just one thing, the easist thing in the world that would be able to defeat the nids. I don't know but this sounds like something that could be referencing some big global event that happened reaaaaly recently that we all had to deal with for 3-4 years...🤔

[@PhthaloGreenskin]

I mean in Rogue Trader the Zoats eat something for breakfast called "Zoatabix" I winder what kind of english food that could be referring to. 🤔

[@randomname3109]

WAS not IS, it has become something else from its humble beginnings 40 (!) years ago. it would be tragic if it didn't evolve

[@smoss9813]

Watch the 10th ed trailer. It is all about propaganda. It doesn't have to be laugh out loud funny. I'm done with listening to the stupid, terminally online gits.

[@lambopaints]

The 10th trailer was showing typical propaganda of an authoritarian regime which is usually counter to reality.

[@aguilarraliuga1777]

In which they lose? That sounds counter productive

[@greyd.99xsome]

Everybody who takes Warhammer 40k seriously, has big problems.

[@thecasualwargamer5195]

40K hasn't been a satire since 2nd edition. Now it's just grimdark sci fi with a war motif.

[@meekotreeko]

Great discussion of the Nature of Satire and how Media evolves over time! Love to see more thought provoking content like this from you!

[@josephrigley8974]

It's satire, it always has been. It's important to remember what 40K is actually a satire on is sci fi tropes. Satire also doesn't mean you can't still relate to the characters and stories in the setting. I find the entire argument that 40K isn't satire to be stupid.

[@nullakjg767]

it really seems like the people who make this argument have never read the lore or a book in their life. i cant think of a single 40k book that depicts them as shining heros. its almost always a worthless conflict made worse by leaders who are way too dogmatic and lack empathy. just because a FEW individual characters can have heroic moments despite the horrible system they exist in, doesnt mean its an endorsement of the system. rylanor may be honorable, but hes still a war criminal from his days in the emperors children. the ideals he clings to from the unification wars are not good. the pride he feels for the horrible things he did is actually reprehensible. it just looks better next to chaos but that doesnt mean its good by any means.

[@itsmedjoom987]

@@nullakjg767when u have school systems that only teach about the n-zis in the context of fascism, anything less is seen as within the bounds of reason which allows for actual f-scists to take root.

[@Cordeneaux87]

I feel like older literature is more subtle in their messages, while recent works (last 10-15 years), has really ditched the subtlety in order to make things clear about their messages. For people attuned to modern messaging, the subtlety of "classics" is just going to be lost. I think the books lean into this a bit more into the satire than their mainstream PR. If you have read the recent Leviathan novel, you can't help but see how humanity has doomed itself from its own incompetence. Granted, putting this exclusively in novels only really caters to a subset of the community. I can't help but think that GW wants to keep as many people buying plastic as possible, so alienating a certain population outright is not going to happen.

[@Zakon673]

This is why I largely prefer chaos and orks. They actually get to have fun with the setting. There's really no mistaking the cackling maniacs decorating their armor with human skin as being the good guys, but they are a lot of fun. For my "sympathetic" faction I prefer the t'au and craftworlds over the Imperium. Mostly because the fanbase has no problems pointing out the ways in which the t'au and craftworlds are actually not good guys, so the message doesn't get muddied.

[@morgymomo8535]

Great video as always. As always, remember that Warhammer is for everyone, but the Imperium is definitely isn't.

[@stefanw6665]

Imo one of the main premises that made the imperium the imperium was that the emperor could very well be dead, and that the astronomicon is just the throne doing its job. i just dont get why they had to bring him back to some form of live. it changes the whole setting.

[@robertsurtees2667]

Blood bowl still has satire (In the rule book etc) , whilst 40k, FB, Aos haven't been satire sine the late 80's

[@Zakon673]

I don't think Age of Sigmar is intended to be satire in any way. It's mostly an uncomplicated good versus evil setting, with the good factions having some grey morality aspects to them. Fantasy is also mostly not a satire. It has some satirical elements like the witch hunters, but for the most part it's just a very grim high fantasy setting.

[@capsaicinJT]

craftworld eldar or tau are both much closer to being actual good guys than the imperium, but i've lost count of the number of times imperium players curse "those damn tricksy backstabbing elves" or "those space communist blue fish people" lol. if GW actually wanted a human good guy faction they could have made minis/rules for the interex, but the imperium apparently killed all of them, oops

[@Legal-Ade]

The setting would be 100x better without “chaos gods” being personified evil. If chaos was just propaganda by the imperium then it would work as satire. But GW decided the needed evil gods, and thus made them totally evil and bad guys, and thus chaos followers are actually evil and nasty, rather than rebels against a tyrannical empire.

[@therandomcommenter6629]

The reason these types of satires don't work as intended is because they're freaking stupid me and tens of thousands of other people understand that it's a satire and we do laugh at the satire but we just don't care we don't care what the humans in either fantasy or sci-fi are doing they are The good Guys because THEY ARE US it gives us an excuse to be patriotic about humanity in a world where we're constantly fighting each other it's the escapism of humanity being United as one and conquering the world together in camaraderie

[@tamanwar203]

interetingly, I always believed warhammer was a parody until I actually met warhammer fans. The over-the-top armours, guns and distorted physiques while keeping a dead serious face sounded too cringey/ridiculous to be true. I mean, space marines really do look like oversized toys when shown in fan-films

[@ruslanhoncharenko2179]

I frankly don't care if it's not that satirical anymore, it's a fictional setting so even if it's takes itself seriously then... Okay? People can take look at any media and get a wrong idea out of it, it doesn't mean we have to neuter or make it safe for everyone just because it seems like it's glorifying something bad. I agree with the article that Warhammer is more complex nowadays that satire excuse doesn't work, but I don't think GW necessary need to stop pretending it is, it's a convenient shield-disclaimer to have even when we and company nows it's no longer relevant.

[@moweu]

40k is still satire. Everything in the universe is so ridiculously and over the top that you can't not find it funny.

[@jordanwilson4182]

It’s not really “over the top”, it just has a lot of feature creep lol

[@moweu]

@@jordanwilson4182 depends ig

[@itsmedjoom987]

It’s satire for u because u can think critically.

[@jameswaller5676]

It depends if you’re British or not. Globalised (American) audiences nowadays can’t really get the joke that GW in the 80s was always taking. the. piss.

[@nullakjg767]

lol in helldivers 2 you fight mindless bugs and evil killbots. its much more clear how messed up 40k is in comparison. let me know when i am suppressing justified rebellions in helldivers 2.

[@jaqssmith1666]

that's the automatons. the justified rebellion is the automatons. they are trying to rescue the cyborgs, who are enslaved by super earth for the crime of not wanting to be part of super earth anymore.

[@nullakjg767]

​@@jaqssmith1666lol those robots have no free will

[@jordanwilson4182]

What it comes down to is that the lefties can juggle how humanity could be so evil but how there still could also be hero’s willing protect it regardless of how fucked up and doomed humanity is. They can’t separate the good from the bad. it must all either be good or all bad.

[@itsmedjoom987]

@@nullakjg767u legit don’t get the messages at all. Like, at all. U most have a very aerodynamically shaped head for the themes within helldivers to fly right over it that easily.

[@nightlord131]

Space Marines and characters being shown heroically doesn't stop 40k involving satire, the Imperium is still a broken empire that made a lot of their own problems in the first place and continue to have things far worse than they need to be, all the whole refusing to accept that they're in the wrong. The setting still exaggerates things to absurd levels and has them make all sorts of nonsensical decisions for baffling reasons, It's still satire.

[@nullakjg767]

wtf books are you reading where the "space marines are shown heroicaly?" even in books where they are the protaganist, they almost always show them as uncaring monsters regarding the population. even the salamanders bring hell on earth wherever they go.

[@TheSpectralFX]

the genre isn't "satire" its not meant to be comical. Is it an exageration? an hyperbole? Yes, the genre was and still is "Grimmdark". Grimmdark is less and less about the punk aesthetic in 40k since 3rd-4th edition if you will. However, the storyline is still that very genre. It's about making the whole universe gruesome, horrific in a way. It's meant to take itself seriously, its about making the whole situation hopeless at all time from every angle. its a story about the whole galaxy going to crap in an endless downhill spiral of worsening predicament, in short, nothing is meant to ever end well. by contrast, Helldivers 2 is the best representation of what satire is about: Pushing something to a comedic extreme were the in-universe characters simply accepts it. In WH40k, it can be argued that the characters knows far too well their world isn't ideal... its just they are ALL meant to fail in their respective quest to make it better... the story being about their journey to series of failures.

[@mr.greenthumb8446]

Guilliman is an angel? No im prety sure that was Singuinius

[@AllThingsCubey]

The satire in 40K is mistly not derived from the actual main conflicts. As you said, repelling Tyranid hive fleets in giant battles is not satire, and never was. Everyone dies if this isn't done, it's objectively the right action. The satire is in the smaller details, the writing, the deliberate misuse or modification of imagary, the thoughts and actions of characters when theyre not mid-way through fighting a Hive Tyrant, etc. If you just break down 40K to core narrative pushing events, you lose a lot of the satire and commentary. That's the issue as I see it, that rather than being a frozen narrative that lets writers explore meriad of side-stories and the setting as a whole, we are now in an era of GW trying to push the story forwards, and it's requiring the Imperium to actually start functioning, and also for writers to spend less time showing why this universe is so bad from day-to-day, opposed to just apocalyptic battles.

[@nullakjg767]

The imperium rarley fights tyranid hive fleets directly.... they do things like exterminatus dozens of loyal planets just to slow them down and then only evacuate nobles, their cronies, and military equipment. thats where the cartoonish evil satire is. its about HOW something is done, not just THAT something is done. When the imperium puts a ruthless dictator in charge because control is more valued the efficiency, THAT is where the satire is. these complaints people have are obvoiusly from people who never actually read the lore.

[@jordanwilson4182]

The problem I see is the term facist is being used so loosely in regards to warhammer that you can apply it to anything and get away with it. I could see how you could the imperium totalitarian, oligarchic or theocratic. But facism is motivated but race, and the imperium dosen't even acknowledge anything other than the human race with regards to itself. Sure people might look at you differently depending if you are void born, a psyker, or what kind of world you were born on, and you might even be killed for some of these reasons, but skin color does not matter and everyone speaks the same language and pretty much is the same culturally, barring some differences. With regards to how they treat xenos the eldar and tau are they only ones capable of reasoning with and who aren’t inherently violent, but at the same time they are often just as aggressive and expansionist as the humans. The tau even treat humans as second class citizens, and the eldar are completely fine with billions of humans dying if it means they can save just one aeldari. So in this setting why is there any reason to be mad? It’s just about the armies and the cool models at the end of the day.

[@Tulkash01]

Originally Warhammer was “LotR meets with the British punk movement from the 70s and early 80s”. Then they found out children had an affinity for powerful male authoritarian figures…

[@jordanwilson4182]

I mean we’re talking about men taking charge to defend humanity from planet eating bugs, literal demons and supremacist space elves and somehow it’s bad to find that cool?

[@Tulkash01]

@@jordanwilson4182 Right... let's just forget how those "men" are also all about mass extermination of other human beings and everyone that does not conform to their (often personal) views. Slavery, torture, and absolute despotism? Those are all ok, because survival! The point those who invented the setting were trying to make is that by being the "worst regime immaginable" (which, btw is something that's literally on the tin for the Imperium, it's not subtle at all) the Imperium is beyond salvation, and at a certain point it's better to die with dignity than become monsters who kill their own humanity. Chaos itself is meant as a reflection of sentient beings failure, the more they struggle, the most horrific acts they commit in the name of their own survival, the more chaos increases its power (demons are born etc) and those sentient beings become the cause of their own ultimate destruction. This is what the setting of 40K is meant to be FROM THE START. Problem is quite a lot of people simply like to ignore all of that and love the idea of the Imperium as a despotic and utterly genocidal society.

[@itsmedjoom987]

@@jordanwilson4182is it cool that these same authority figures are fueled by entire worlds that use slave labor of criminals and other poor ppl? Because Warhammer 40k doesn’t have any good guys, there doesn’t mean u need to rationalize in one. U can still like the imperium, but be honest in how bad it is and not getting up into the literal propaganda that this fake empire puts out.

[@danielbear9183]

I'm reporting you to my local democracy officer....

[@LichKingg23]

Fail to understand satire doesn't make it a bad satire. Nobody understood Starship troopers yet it's great. To my views, Helldivers is bad because it's easier to get a Zion ist or a Naz ist and get it to like it. You have a right to your opinion, even if it is wrong. Cheers, I hate Naz ist.

[@TheDuke07]

40k Satire goes over too many brainlets heads. It's sad really because many of the jokes are great.

[@MissLeafi]

The problem remains. If you need to keep telling people it's satire because all you show them is heroes being cool and fighting the good fight, then it's just not good satire (or satire at all in the first place). A joke you have to explain is a bad joke. They could easily solve this by showing the dark sides of the Imperium with as much intensity, but they obviously don't care about that. You have to actively look for it and/or dive deep into the lore to find those things.

[@Mortys_Toilet_Attendant]

Perhaps 40k isn’t very satirical these days. But you’d have to be a chump to take it seriously (as an adult I mean).

[@madmask7987]

Define take it seriously

[@Mortys_Toilet_Attendant]

@@madmask7987 in this case it would mean so closely identifying with the 40k universe that you would shape your own beliefs around it. Or use the story lines to reinforce your beliefs/politics. This is normal when you’re a child, but damaging/troubling when you’re an adult.

[@madmask7987]

@@Mortys_Toilet_Attendant oh, definitely. I mean, you can admire some of the “positive” things, like the human tenacity, their fervor, their willingness to not lay down and die against a cruel and fucked up universe, but at the same time you should recognise that first is a game, is not real life, and second, the Imperium is an outright nasty place to live, and you should NOT try to emulate them in the slightest… then again, part of the reason why the Imperium doesn’t work as satire is that the universe where it lives is half the reason why is like that, and only a universe that fucked up could remotely justify the existence of something like that without hand waving it as “Humans are evil morons”

[@Mortys_Toilet_Attendant]

@@madmask7987 Arbitor Iain has said it better than me in his latest video. Basically saying that the reason some folk get so angry with GW rules issues and what they perceive to be “unacceptable lore changes” is that they have defined themselves as 40k fans to the point of fanaticism. I can’t really disagree with him on that score!