Was Dream The HERO? | Dream SMP

[@Ani]

Want a bit of a surprise? Listen closely to the backing music at 0:39 :) ALSO, MASSIVE THANKS TO RUBY FOR HELPING OUT A METRIC TONNE WITH THIS VIDEO!

[@AceYT69]

Dream's speed running trance music.. because you're showing your analytics AND because you're trying to speedrun KZbin with subs

[@samurexatlas7373]

I knew what I heard

[@notmaku298]

I don't understand tho

[@millyhearts]

@@notmaku298 Du du du du

[@fastnot]

Isn't that the synthwave remix of the speedrunning music?

[@honorary.senior]

c!dream's villain arc started when he cut off all his relationships [re: "i don't give a fuck about anything!"] and no one really tried to help him and his deteriorating mental state and let him go. isolating oneself is a clear sign if mental distress and honestly i find c!dream such a tragedy because no one helped him when he needed it :-( but that doesn't excuse any of the actions he then proceeded to make because that was Fucked Up

[@rubywhistler869]

very very true

[@honorary.senior]

@Xitlalic Chavez Valencia yeah! if he had his friends with him to tell him off and keep him in line with tough love [LOVE.] it definitely would've been different. though as much as it is fun to think about the "what ifs," i am enjoying the current story no matter how screwy it is lol

[@limiteatae9791]

@@honorary.senior It was sad he didn't have Sapnappy and Gogy with him because Sap took his words wrong and that's when they broke tides and Dream dethroned George because he was trying to protect him but they didn't listen its very sad not only that Tommy kinda manipulated Sapnap to thinking Dream didn't care for him.

[@honorary.senior]

@@limiteatae9791 there's a lot of miscommunication tied in with the "manipulation" of sapnap thinking dream doesn't care for him, but it is a reasonable[ish] conclusion for him to come to with the help of tommy because at that point dream had already said he doesn't care for anything but the discs, coupled with how he dethroned george. all in all, a tragedy indeed

[@lucyla9947]

Honestly I think that Dream wasn't the only person that the server let down, Schlatt also was let down by the server, they didn't even try to understand him or even let him have a chance to change L'manburg, heck he could have wanted to change it for the better but he just never got the chance (also sidenote I believe that Schlatt's banishment of Wilbur and Tommy was meant to be temporary as he said "until further notice" meaning that at some point he would give notice that they can come back) and I pretty sure he was also trying to change himself for the better and fix his alcoholism (I think that because he seemed to have changing moods which could be attributed to him going on withdrawal and then bouncing back because he couldn't bare it) and instead of staying and helping him, everybody left him (except for Karl) (Dream and his crew were only on Schlatt's side due to being bought off) leading him to his death die to him going further into his alcoholism and also emotional destress. Honestly it's a pity that so many people neglect to look at it from the other side of things and understand the side of the people commonly thought to be the Villains.

[@itzgalatic]

In season one and the first half of season two Dream wasn't the bad guy. But during exile is when he started to lose it.

[@bluebatmanvk5535]

ALL OF THISSSSSS

[@kiban_]

Yeah, I think what happened was he slowly became more and more radical, becoming more of a villain.

[@Maverick2110]

I strongly agree

[@gachagirl3244]

@@kiban_ Or it could be something to do with the egg. It's a theory I've had for a while. Almost everyone has forgotten that dream and bad are one of the first on the servers that saw, and interacted with, the egg. If bad got infected and slowly got worse, then whose to say that dream didn't get infected and slowly got worse as well. The timeline would sort of line up. Do I think it's true? Probably not. I don't think that's where they are going with the story, but it is a thing that happened. It is an interesting idea though and one that could possibly happen.

[@Maverick2110]

@@gachagirl3244 That could be true, especially considering Fundy's *Dreamon Arc*

[@havaltherock]

The Antagonist is not the villain twist. Classic.

[@chasethemaster3440]

Yep

[@moneybuysdrugs]

Yep

[@Azynel]

Yep

[@jazzon_1619]

Right cause isn’t an antagonist a person in opposition of the protagonist, which doesn’t necessarily mean an antagonist is wrong.

[@mooncake_onion]

I can't fully see a character as the antagonist in this story 😂 nobody is totally naive or totally evil, I think.

[@oceanussolis1137]

Finally, I've found someone who thinks the same as me. For a while (before Tommy's exile), I always was confused on why people sought Dream as the villain when he graciously invited Wilbur and Tommy to his server just for them to break his three rules and then ban him from a piece of his own land. And I was even more confused on why everyone thought it was ok for Tommy to try and get the discs back when he gave them to Dream himself for the independence of L'Manburg. Doesn't taking the discs back means the deal is off? I always thought that the moment Dream snapped was when Spirit was used against him. He was willing to give Tommy a chance and not exile him but then Tommy decided to go against the 'I won't misbehave' part of the deal and just threatened Dream. I think Dream then spiralled down into insanity and then started to keep other's attachments and cutting his own. Also, didn't Dream dethrone George to protect George, knowing George is in danger because they're close friends? And then George decided to say that Dream only did it for power?! I definitely think that Dream did bad things but the reason he did those things are for a good reason

[@TheAzrael666death]

Weelllll, Tommy DID start in the server griefing and then started a DRUG operation, followed by a WAR for some DISCS that hold no value except the one HE put on them. After that? In all wars, battles and scheemns, he didn`t even care that much who he betray (mostly Technoblade). Sooo, yeah, I agree with your opinion, 84 more people seems that do as well.

[@lwyanneebg9314]

@@TheAzrael666death yea probably since I think I remember dream say to Tommy and tubbo is "I just want this server to be way it used to be" meaning! he just want peace in dream smp and I think he slowing lost his sanity after he was in prison I mean being tortured everyday and isolated for few months just to see the server becoming more and more chaos

[@koemithebear4133]

@@lwyanneebg9314 listen, ive trouble being caight up with lore and all, but hear me out, without dream's rule, noone is there to settle the disputes but those who are involved. when dream was in control, he (sort of) knew how to stop tommy. he is just the misunderstood "villain." but that doesn't make him a hero, either. dream cut off all he cared about once he realized that that was what made him weak. and, he only did that so he could have control over the server again. and, well, when hes in control, he could settle the fights and wars. its just a loop. but when he put tommy in isolation, he was fed up, tired, and burnt out. it was still, though, wrong of him to take it out on tommy. but he did lose his sanity, spiraling into the pits of mental illness. he got caught up in the manipulation cause it gave him power, and, by then, he forgets why he wants the power. it feels good to be in control of the server, so i dont think he realizes what his motives are, at that point. when dream escaped prison, he met with sapnap (at i think somewhere at or near snowchester?). dream went to that stone bunker to retrieve his armor, not aware that sapnap was there waiting for him. they proceed to argue for the armor. dream didnt get his armor back. instead, sapnap put it on, and, i quote, sapnap said: "i don't know, dream. it kinda feels good on me." meaning, the armor was manipulative? and i guess dream lost it at that point cause it just went in a loop. from tommy stealing his stuff and not returning it, to sapnap taking his stuff and not returning it, i think dream, in a way, had a right to do what he did, but it was still wrong, if you understand. i dont know, im just rambling at this point lol these are just my theories :')

[@Biirbs]

YESSS

[@fumarc4501]

Control freaks usually mean well. The problem is the inevitable conflict it creates between oneself and those around us… I recommend mediation and breathing exercises. Also going on walks.

[@roshnibritto4637]

Dream according to me is an anti hero. But he never straight up made himself a villain. Tommy pissed off dream, making dream take the discs. But dream knows that Tommy will become selfish if the discs are given to him. But Tommy was the starter of wars. Dream never wanted conflict. But he fought back. He wanted control, power to unite the server as a whole. He knew that schlatt tearing down the walls was a threat

[@Karkatrielle]

No okay Tommy is not selfish Tommy gives up the disks multiple times for other people his most prized possessions for Wilbur for l'manburg for tubbo Tommy makes mistakes but he is in no way selfish

[@roshnibritto4637]

@@Karkatrielle no at the beginning of that. Tommy is not selfish and has majorly changed throughout the dsmp

[@Karkatrielle]

@@roshnibritto4637 during the story dream is constantly selfish and cruel and was rarely until the he was put in prison punished for that but Tommy was punished immensely for his few moments of selfishness I mean one of the few times he trys doing something for himself he is exiled emotionally manipulated abused and nearly driven to suicide

[@roshnibritto4637]

@@Karkatrielleyes that is true, dreams motives are good, the way he gets them is bad

[@coal8895]

@@Karkatrielle so him burning George's house for no reason, leaving techno after all he did for him, and ignoring everyone points, always thing he's right in every situation and getting angry at people of they disagree with him isn't selfish?

[@KaiTheMemeKing]

Dream is a bit of a weird character. In his own eyes, he's the good guy. And for many reasons I'd agree with that statement! Obviously the Exile Arc and the Prison Arc were inexcusable but he's still doing what he thinks is best for the server. All he wanted in the beginning was peace and union, and I believe he still wants that. I will say, he is most decidedly now heavily motivated by revenge - primarily with Tommy and Quackity.

[@nice1563]

FINALLY I FOUND SUCH A VIDEO. I've already searched for videos like this, because I thought about the same things you mentioned in this video. That is the reason why I'm confused when people say that their favorite person is tommy or wilbur, and they say they hate Dream. As you said, Dream had good reasons for his actions, and at the beginning I'd do all he did, if I was him. But in the Tommy-exile, you were right, he was really cruel. But I think he was so cruel to tommy because he kinda went crazy. Dream started that World, and watched it growing. And that's the reason why he went crazy. Because he sees his own world in war ( which is kinda his fault too ). When he went crazy he wanted to let his anger out on tommy and on L'Mamburg. The 2 first things that made him fight in his World. After he did that he went more crazy and wanted to plan every single thing. So far that he had his own spy ( what I mean is that I think punz was and still is a spy of dream). He made backup-plans and started learning the revival-book, ready to get immortal together with Wilbur, ready to call the techno flavour. After the last disk fight he wanted to show tommy and tubbo were he will kill tubbo. But that wasnt his plan. He would made them more and more suffer to make then even more hate him ( he needed that so tommy would try to kill him and bring ghostbur in the trap ). Then the whole server came in Avengers Endgame style, along with his spy, punz. After dying 2 times he got into the prison, he ordered to build. After spending LOTS of time thinking he knew everything how he should do everything. He would kill tommy, revive him so tommy wants to kill dream and then revive Wilbur. Then he would wait until Wilbur would help him out. If wilbur would want to help him out, wilbur would try to manipulate phil, so Phil would help him rescue dream. Even if that wouldnt work he could use ranboo enderwalk, or , at last, if everything went wrong, he could use the techno favour, even when I think he'll need it later. But the Techno flavour would help him even manipulate ranboo more, because he would think techno betrayed him, just like if Phil and wilbur would do it. That's how I think of dreams perspective. He wanted good, but because of his bad handling and pain he went crazy and wants revenge. Btw, if I said something wrong or forgot something, please just write it down in the comments. Edit: that are lots of likes.....thanks? Edit2: seems like this comment has 69 likes............... :)

[@SpinDuality]

Oooh, that's good. I think I remember Dream calling Tommy the catalyst or starter of sentimentality or obsession to things, which he thinks is the one that started to get things out of control. Specifically, his control on the server. (This is obviously paraphrased by me and I only got this from what I remember.) He thinks that if he locks up Tommy, he'll control the server again and back to what it once was by controlling the people over their care for Tommy. This is what I think, back in the early disk wars, Dream saw how much control he had over Tommy by just having the disks. And in the Pogtopia v Manburg, he saw the actions of both Wilbur and Tommy when they lost L'manburg. They'd do anything to get the land back (destroy for Wilbur), even as far as teaming up with Dream. He learned that having to care for something can make people do nearly anything just to get it back. This solidified Dream's thoughts when the Pet Wars happened. Dream probably started going crazy during Tubbo's start of the presidency. Exile was somewhere Dream got the idea of controlling Tommy to control the server, making Tommy think that Dream was his only friend and no one else. Doomsday was where Dream finally got to destroy L'manburg, making the land go to the greater dream smp again. The encounter was where Dream finally revealed some of his plans which was control all over the smp again. There's also more evidence backing up my theory, but it was either him being vague, lying, or it was all just a coincidence. A big coincidence.

[@nice1563]

@@SpinDuality good to know that, I forgot that. I think that everything you're saying is true, and fits perfect with the present events ( sorry when I wrote something wrong, I'm not english). The only thing I have to say is that I think Dream could have went so crazy he forgot his reason for all, and Wants revenge, till he realizes he forgot what hes fighting for. But there are so many other thoughts in my head which could be true too. Maybe dream will make a deal with quackity and quackity breakes him out. Maybe he'll make a Deal with the eggpire, which could be true too, because punz is in the eggpire and punz worked with dream and could've been a spy while the whole server was against dream. Bad is in the Eggpire too, and was a friend of dream. Oh and it would be great character development for puffy because dream is canonically her son. She would think it's her fault that one of her sons ( foolish ) died because the eggpire and the other one ( dream ) helps and works with the Eggpire. Also, you remember when skeppy talked with Dream in a clip in this video? Skeppy was the first person possessed by the egg. That would fit perfect too. OR WHAT IF ALYSSA BREAKES DREAM OUT?! IDK, IM RUNNING OUT OF IDEAS. But it COULD be. He COULD bring schlatter back, but I dont think he would because hes the hero of Wilbur. Well yeah, that was what I wanted to say and thanks for your comment! (Btw, I'm feeling kinda like a mini version of the Game theorist)

[@jalenhu3382]

mans writin esssays

[@nice1563]

@@jalenhu3382 yep, that's what I was thinking while I was writing this.

[@jonathansorg1713]

Exactly! Tbh I don’t really like Tommy’s dsmp character, here’s why. Ever since tommy logged on to the dsmp, it has been absolute mayhem! Now not all of the conflicts have been due to him but there’s been a lot where he had something to do with it. I hate when ppl claim him to be “The hero of the dsmp”, imo he’s not lol. He’s greedy, selfish, disloyal, quick tempered, and low key kinda annoying (not tommyinit content creator, just his dsmp character). In fact here’s a few things he has done: 1: Help start a literal drug cartel lol 2: Assisted in starting a “terrorist” discriminatory nation 3: Held dreams possessions in exchange for the discs he gave up in a mutually agreed upon deal 4: Created a rigged election to assert power 5: Was a accomplice to many planned terrorist attacks 6: Overthrew a democratically elected leader in a hostile coup in order to install his best friend as leader 7: took refuge in technos house after after exile, only to rob him short after 8: betrayed technoblade, the only friend who was genuine with him, housed him, protected him, only to turn his back on him to the kid who exiled him Idk ab you guys, but that dose sound like a hero lol. There’s only been a few incidents where he’s acted in selflessness, most of the time; he acts out of greed.

[@commander_frog]

“Imagine not being the main character on your own server” -Ranboo

[@RedDeadDepressionist]

Tbf, I’d rather be the main villain. I’ve always enjoyed being a villain during roleplay or D&D and stuff

[@l0sts0ul72]

tbh I always prefer playing antagonist or a chaotic neutral. *Either that or I just kinda follow whoever plays the protagonist-*

[@cubeguy2844]

@@RedDeadDepressionist yeah, it feels so free when acting so evil. And its kinda ez to act like that.

[@gacha_nikuro6449]

I have found my people

[@osairuV]

Either you die as a hero, or live long enough to be a villain

[@bluebatmanvk5535]

Love seeing people see Dream's POV more.

[@AceYT69]

I love seeing people seeing people seeing people see Dream's POV

[@millyhearts]

@@AceYT69 don’t you dare start a chain

[@iabrunato8509]

@@millyhearts don't you dare stop a chain about them loving people seeing people loving people seeing Dream's POV

[@muhammadbinnaeem7026]

@@iabrunato8509 dont u dare stop me from continuing the chain about them loving people seeing people loving people seeing Dreams POV

[@limiteatae9791]

I will break that chain ( ͡°( ͡° ͜ʖ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)ʖ ͡°) ͡°)

[@Sayyble]

Anytime I see Wilbur and dream together I think of the *daddy dream! Oh wai-* and I both cringe and giggle It's great

[@EtrnlCntr]

fun fact: The exile arc took place after Wilbur stopped writing the story, when Wilbur was writing, Dream wasn't the "villain", but when the new writers started writing the story, they made Dream a "villain". Basically, I think the new writers thought of Dream as the villain of the story, meanwhile, Wilbur didn't want Dream as the villain when he wrote, so Dream redemption arc confirmed? Edit: Yes, I know Dream was one of the writers of the exile arc, but I think that Dream by that point also thought of his character as a villain, most of the server and community of the smp thought of Dream as the villain, everyone agreed to make an exile arc and it was made.

[@moonwalker1155]

Definitely.

[@Iys_cloud]

0-0 good brain you got there can i borrow it?

[@justarandompolarbearwithin640]

damn, a dream redemption arc would be epic.

[@Berds7273]

I thought Dream was one of the writers for the Exile Arc? I'm not 100 percent sure tho.

[@duykhangtran4406]

@@Berds7273 I think Tommy said he and Dream wrote Exile arc together. And Dream also said in a stream that his character is a bad guy and he's fine with having that character. So yeah, he might not be the villain when Wilbur wrote the story but he's pretty much is now in the eye of everyone

[@CM-gz9cp]

We now know who wrote the Dream Apologist Manifesto.

[@rinisafool]

OH MY GOD PLEASE

[@whoopsie-daisy]

wait whats that?

[@rinisafool]

@@whoopsie-daisy basically a 6,000 or so word google doc going into detail about how c!dream was completely justified in his actions. some gems include calling him an attentive friend to c!george, the explanation of marxism and dictatorship for about 3 paragraphs, and the justification of the skeppy cage among other things

[@whoopsie-daisy]

@@rinisafool wait how tf does someone justify the skeppy cage thing?

[@rinisafool]

@@whoopsie-daisy I DUNNO BUT THEY TRIED TO RJFNFKDB

[@smiles9882]

Basically : Dream: Antivillain turned evil Wilbur: Pure Villain

[@rubywhistler869]

wouldn't say, the man's just a prick but he has potential

[@cherechesalexdaniel811]

Called it. I have said for months now that Wilbur only cared about L'manburg because it put him on an even footing with Dream. Now the man himself confirmed it.

[@Predaplanter]

I'd say Wilbur is chaotic neutral

[@limiteatae9791]

@@cherechesalexdaniel811 SAMMMEEE

[@chasethemaster3440]

@@cherechesalexdaniel811 nice

[@twisted8631]

Dream and techno destroying lmanberg was the most satisfying thing I've ever seen in the dream smp considering that I watch technos POV

[@Antares-highdrake]

TRUE

[@toonthopia5543]

Ya that was very satisfying, although I was most satisfied when I saw the rows of withers techno had, you know the "welcome home theseus" scene

[@limiteatae9791]

SAME

[@lgpilottoo4332]

After all, the only important POV is the techno POV

[@UnderscoreKikimo]

same lol

[@Altsncro]

In short: the entirety of the SMP is divided in perspectives. We can never see things form a truly objective view because of these Lore streams that Exclusively show one characters perspective. And as we slowly piece together the pieces we see how no one is a hero in the Dream SMP. Everyone does a evil deed or sides with evil at one point or another no matter how "Good" they seem. We can already saw this happen with the war of Independence, Revolution/Pogtopia, destruction of L'manberg, and with the Eggpire. The Division between people and groups with neither side being 'Good' or 'Right'. Before the SMP was peacfull, a group where people hung out and had fun. But now people are causing conflict, war, Violence for the sake of being "Good". Dream is just a example of it.

[@moonwalker1155]

To be honest look at everything tommy has done. Although he was an ass. Tommy is a good guy who does bad deeds for fun. As weird as that is to say he is

[@satchelharding189]

And where did that fun get him

[@chimkinnugget7134]

Yes true! The main reason why so many people don’t like c!Dream is because he doesn’t have a perspective. (And also because a good chunk of the dsmp viewers have only seen Tommy’s POV and it shows)

[@limiteatae9791]

@@moonwalker1155 and where have all that bad stuff for fun got him.

[@limiteatae9791]

@@chimkinnugget7134 true, Everyone at least once when when hey first watched the dream Smp watched Tommy's POV and that's why they only watch him and never side with anyone else.

[@cryptexious]

Dream is the hero but he has different ways of handling it, and I would think trying to keep the server together drove him insane as we see in the exile and prison arc.

[@marklaurencedeleon8968]

Hey when your main target is at your mercy you are gonna stick it to them.

[@izar1670]

Dream is one of those characters that is trying to be the hero and wants to be good, but is doing it the complete wrong way.

[@theflatsixth]

Personally I think Dream is a hero because IMO all the writing after Wilbur left is awful.

[@coal8895]

@@theflatsixth so everything after dawn of 16th was horrendous? Including exile, and the execution? I doubt it

[@theflatsixth]

@@coal8895 Yeah pretty much. Exile Arc was terrible because it was framed as Tubbo betraying Tommy instead of Tommy instead of Tommy acting like a child and ruining everything. His character had to mentally regress to actually make it seem normal. And he repeatedly got "manipulated" by Dream, continuing to defend him even though Dream had barely done anything to earn any sort of respect from Tommy.

[@applegod8090]

techno: destroys a country also techno: i have renounced my ways, therefore my crimes have dissapeared.

[@jbj25jackson3]

Wilbur did most of it techno blew up maybe 2% of the country

[@coal8895]

When did techno destroy a country and then retire afterwards?

[@RedDeadDepressionist]

@@coal8895 after Wilbur blew up L’Manburg, Techno ran away and hid in the snow a long distance from the ruins. The cabinet of New L’Manburg (when Tommy was exiled) became The Butcher Army and went to hunt Techno. Even though Techno wanted to live in peace and never battle again

[@coal8895]

@@RedDeadDepressionist yeah but he didn't blow up l'manburg. And this comment says he blew up the country and then retired

[@RedDeadDepressionist]

@@coal8895 yeah, Wilbur blew it up, but Techno did summon 2 Withers

[@maidah770]

I’ve actually been thinking this for quite a while dream wasn’t the villain at the VERY beginning of the server but now he’s neither the hero or the villain

[@EddieAFool]

I feel like that the butcher army's attempted execution of technoblade was the death nail for new L'manberg.

[@swastikpanini9341]

cuz it 'ACTUALLY WAS'

[@nightmareorigins2681]

I've always agreed with Dream, I mean Dream literally said it in The Season 2 Finale, Tommy came into his Server and started wars, it was peaceful before Tommy joined.

[@brostrod]

If Dream was the villain Everyone would be the villain Everyone is fighting for their own personal ideals (tommy and L’Manburg, Techno and anarchy, etc.) Dream’s ideal is control and power, to make it the DREAM SMP, like how he first envisioned it

[@sageyt4808]

But, its not HIS SMP anymore. It belongs to all of them, so in some twisted way Wilbur was right. He had the right to be independent.

[@OmniJuice]

@@sageyt4808 ??? how does the smp belong to all of them? dream made it so its his.

[@sageyt4808]

@@OmniJuice No, he said it WAS his SMP. But its not now. Its every members. So, Joseph Swann made the lightbulb. Thomas Edison found it and improved on it and won the copyright as Swann had suddenly died. Its pretty much like that but less scandalous.

[@thedemonboyshadow2170]

@@OmniJuice you do have a point but there is so much conflict I don’t know who smp belongs to to anymore

[@craezamora8437]

If tommy didn't start a war on the dream smp dream can have his servers in peace

[@freekenjaku]

“Meaning when you control Lemanburg, you control- *FIVE HOUR ENERGY DRINK”*

[@Dominic2078]

For me it was Jimmy John’s lol

[@freekenjaku]

@@Dominic2078 lol

[@Nerocrystal]

For me it was the coronavirus

[@nix1507]

For me it was Minecraft

[@freekenjaku]

@@nix1507 lol

[@ultimateuthman680]

FINALLY ive been looking at it like this for so long and FINALLY someone agrees with me the way i see it dream is a ruler fighting the corruption of power. hes trying not to go evil and the tommy exile arc was a little strange but you could see is him getting back at tommy it doesnt excuse what he did to tommy but i mean cmon tommy is like a villain to dream when you look at it from dreams point of view

[@moonwalker1155]

To be fair dream did no wrong except being a American

[@SpinDuality]

@@moonwalker1155 Dream didn't like L'manburg because it bans all Americans so he blew it up.

[@ultimateuthman680]

@@moonwalker1155 true forgot about that

[@brendofire2084]

@@moonwalker1155 Very true.

[@brendofire2084]

@@SpinDuality Blowing L'manburg was definitely a good call

[@hifzxx]

Animagician: "Was dream the hero?" Me,a slight dream apologist: Always has been..

[@sageyt4808]

Well, until he emotionally manipulated a traumatized 16 year old child and blew up his home.

[@LucarioBot]

Before becoming pure evil that is

[@ianjomarcaraballorodriguez6224]

You know when a guy invite you to a party that most civilized thing to do is have fun and do whatever you want in it as long as you are having fun, from all the comments I've seen about the dream SMP the more clear it is that dream is still playing by those rules....anything go if everyone is out to get you...if anything, everyone who stood up against him for no reason and transformed his server into something it was never ment to be.... if anything it's not the heroes fighting against the villian. It's the hero fighting against invaders... and his fighting back using the skill that made him soo great long ago. Soo in short: Dream made the house and the party was made by dream but the mess in the house was made by them... if anything dream just cleaning up.

[@julianatakenaka7438]

I’ll be honest I think that dream isn’t the villain

[@dragonmap5067]

This is literally the only video that I’ve seen that makes it logical and has a good argument as to why Dream could be or is a Hero or isn’t a bad guy. This was a very well done video. I really enjoyed watching it!

[@okoowcymnichowpanwiszacejw2382]

You know that Wilbur's lying, right? He says he never cared about L'Manberg but on the very same stream, the moment Tommy is not watching, he's staring longingly at the van in the museum. Don't take Wilbur's words at face value. He's lying to everyone, including himself

[@CatfactsPW]

Honestly, I’m starting to see more of Dreams point of view after watching Foolish have the exact same problem with L’Manburg

[@coal8895]

Do u mean l'sandburg?

[@Rasmusnilsenbie]

A lot of evidence actually points to Dream being the good guy, he only resorted to Violence when all Else failed.

[@DarkSharkDomilian]

yeah, he wasnt even going to exile Tommy until everyone tried to use Dream's dead horse's horse as a way to blackmail Dream and make him into Tommy's slave. And even after that, Tubbo was the one to exile Tommy, Dream just enforced it because everyone treated Tommy well and would give in. They had two other choices, just be willing to be trapped in L'manburg or fight Dream and be the bad guy. Dream only treated Tommy so horribly because Dream is a victim of Tommy who gave into vengeful urges. And even then, he was willing to let Tommy stay with Techno until problems arose

[@xshadowwreckerx7561]

@@DarkSharkDomilian yeah true

[@DarkSharkDomilian]

@Balance of The hill He banished the most innocent guy? And who might that be?

[@xshadowwreckerx7561]

@Balance of The hill Tommy definitely isn’t innocent

[@Rasmusnilsenbie]

@Balance of The hill i agree with them, tommy gave Dream the discs, tommy sent him to a prison with inhumane conditions after getting the discs back, dream is most likely insane because of tommy, his obsession sent Dream to insanity, in his lust for the discs. by anything, Dream did nothing wrong.

[@Plasmawavemicrowave]

“The thing that I built this for doesn’t exist anymore” -Wilbur Soot

[@thecupidintraining]

so basically, dream is morally grey, like every other character on the smp

[@eugenepaik2413]

He's the villain from the perspective of TommyInnit & co. but from a anything but that group of people, he is a "hero"

[@eugenepaik2413]

Ok

[@LucarioBot]

Dream became pure evil by the time the exile arc finished

[@alfagamingnl1815]

Nice to see a video about how dream was not the villain at the start. Also i think you would really like the dramaturgy animatic by rosartemis who has a very similar opinion to yours. It also has good animation and a very fitting song along side a good explanation on why the creator has there opinion about dream in the description.

[@rubywhistler869]

i loved that animation a lot, the song to it (the english version) also just fits dream so well :D

[@limiteatae9791]

Yes that was an amazing video!

[@jottys3709]

GOD I GOT A FUCKING PERFECTLY TIMED AD. "when you control New L'manburg you control RAID SHADOW LEGENDS"

[@fluffyura1820]

this cracked me up

[@Benlego1817]

i mean its a similar thing with techno he is often seen as a bad person but all he really wanted was that him and his friends were safe just as he said: "the only thing that works in this world is that you treat others as they treat you..." (im not gonna write all of it down every1 knows the words) he only attacked lmanburg after they provoked him

[@LucarioBot]

Except dream is pure evil while technoblade is too redeemable to qualify

[@lucianoroberti1734]

@@LucarioBot how is dream pure evil

[@aliciabenningfield3650]

"Techno and Dream blowing up New L'Manberg was a good thing." Me, the Technoblade viewer: Yes

[@KittyandLychee]

Dream went from a somewhat normal guy to a psychopath. I think the turning point was probably the moment he stopped caring about Spirit. After he does this, he becomes much more manipulative and cold-hearted.

[@secretlythevillian8831]

After Tommy tried to blackmail him with spirit. He decided that no can have leverage over him if he acts like he cares for nothing.

[@KittyandLychee]

@@secretlythevillian8831 Exactly. When he cut the bonds he had with anything, he kinda became a psychopath.

[@satchelharding189]

Yeah way to go Tommy you create a monster

[@ImaginaryJ-km7cr]

Well it wasn’t really when Tommy held sprit hostage, because Dream said himself that he lost care for it ages ago, so whenever he cut off all of his attachment to items and people on the server is when he went crazy.

[@KittyandLychee]

@@ImaginaryJ-km7cr Well he did still care about Spirit when Tommy held it hostage otherwise he wouldn’t have started taking down the walls, but yeah pretty much.

[@maevethewitch]

Wilbur also said that if was there instead of Ghostbur he would kill Dream for what he was doing to Tommy. So he doesn't excuse Dream's actions against Tommy, but he definitely sees him as a hero. A blurry line for sure

[@Azynel]

Dream: alright I’m gonna be the bad guy for lore yea! KZbinrs: so he’s actually the hero

[@yourbankaccount3564]

This guy: Tommyinnit is good lmanburg is good, quackity is good dream bad techno bad whole dream smp and KZbinrs: *showing evidence of deep lore that you cant just take only from pov of 16years old child cuz you like him* this guy >:c also did you watched that video, this guy didn't at the and said he is a hero more like a guy who does bad things for good reason

[@melonchola]

@@yourbankaccount3564 But that's the point, if you do bad things for a good reason you're still bad. You can't unite a server by destroying the new groups/alliances that are formed. Wilbur even stated that Dream is chaotic evil. I haven't watched the video yet tho to be fair, there may be something that will completely change my opinion.

[@vid6429]

you didn't watch the video,did you?

[@sageyt4808]

@@yourbankaccount3564 You are quite wrong, Quakity is not good... WTF? Yes, some of the points in the video where valid. But the Prison one would only be so if he had endured it BEFORE he emotionally manipulated a 16 year old child who had been kicked out of his home after being traumatized by seeing his friends die. You really sound like a Dream Apologists. You forget that he brought Tommy and Tubbo to the mountain and TRIED to kill tubby boi. He also blew up basically everything.

[@LucarioBot]

Yeah dream chose to be pure evil and yet people say he’s the hero?

[@galactisgd431]

YES FINALLY SOMEBODY WHO HAS THE SAME IDEALS AS ME

[@chimkinnugget7134]

There’s a lot of us on twt if u have that

[@brendofire2084]

@@chimkinnugget7134 Thank goodness. People just think that Tommy is the hero because he says he is, but in reality, he is just deluded.

[@chimkinnugget7134]

@@brendofire2084 dude yes. Most of the dsmp viewers have only seen Tommy’s pov and it is painfully obvious lol. And yes there is a niche for everything on Twitter and this is no exception lmao in this case if u see anybody with the emojis 🟩⛏ in their display name it means c!Dream apologist and they have some really good takes if either of you two are interested 👀

[@byzanti-knithi8464]

@@brendofire2084 Yep, a reason I hate his character is because the characters follow him blindly. They do everything for him and he brushes them off. Dream is doing bad for a good reason. Even worse, if anyone was mentally deteriorating, other than dream, they would’ve helped them. But what did they do to dream? They shoved him in a prison and let him rot. When he killed tommy everyone blamed him, but he’s just going insane.

[@galactisgd431]

The reason I think dream is the hero, is because TommyInnit broke the rules day 1. Dream is just doing his job.

[@somerandomcitizen]

So, they're the literal definition of "The highway to hell is paved with good intentions, and the stairway to heaven is paved with seemingly bad intentions."

[@CarpeDiem19097]

I think it's also worth mentioning is that we honestly have no idea in what mental state c!Dream was during exile arc. YES all he did was wrong and terrible, there is no other answer. but his behaviour could mean that he needs help as well. it's around time where he dethroned George and him and Sapnap stepped back from Dream, his first fights with Quackity over throne and Mexican L'Manberg, everyone kept saying 'yes Wilbur was right Dream is a villain' and he realised his attachments can and will be used against him. again, it DOESN'T make it right, he still abused other person, but it can explain his actions - he possibly is as traumatized as anyone else on this damn server anyway, I love the video :D it's nice to see people trying do understand Dream POV instead painting him as a one dimension villain!

[@strophosgaming5998]

The person who does the trauma oftenly never gets the trauma

[@CarpeDiem19097]

​@@strophosgaming5998 that's no necessary true. often people, who were abused by their parents as a child, abuse their children the same or similar way. again, it doesn't mean that that parents shouldn't be held responsible for all their actions but this also doesn't cancel their childhood trauma

[@strophosgaming5998]

@@CarpeDiem19097 They should be accountable with everything they do it dosent matter if you faced trauma its literally your own life

[@CarpeDiem19097]

@@strophosgaming5998 I literally said "it DOESN'T make it right, he still abused other person". my comment is not about making excuses for c!Dream but about acknowledging that he might not be in his right mind

[@duykhangtran4406]

Yeah. He's only turn into an actual villain when he decided cutting all of his attachment to pursue power over the server

[@topblokeharvey]

All I know it that Ani will be the next hero because he’s joining the SMP. You can’t hide secrets anymore Ani.

[@genesisfrog]

trying to imagine how to mod/handle a community that size and am in immense pain 👍

[@TheMagneticDude]

Although this might not be intended lore, I think lsandburg set up by bad in foolish's land is kind of a symbolism of how lmanburg came to be from dream's perspective.

[@ssbrix3171]

y e s. I finaly have find my side of the smp. Dream is always painted as a villain and I mean he pretty much is, but he wasn't always like this, he had the rigth of going againts l'manburg, they came and painted him as a triant when he had like 3 rules that were actually fair. And yea I just want to see Dreams pov at some point so people can realice that dream wasn't always a villain

[@jordy1654]

SO this then has me thinking, was "Ghostbur" all an act to get people to have a softer heart toward Wilbur's character (?)

[@ct8670]

honestly what dream was doing is the same thing jack and niki are doing stopping tommy's chaos

[@CountryTunic524]

I completely agree and this is how I actually explain dreams character to new people to the Dream SMP.

[@FireTome]

Even after this, I still like to think Wilbur cared about L'Manburg. Even if he made it for the purpose of getting power, he had grown attached to it without knowing it. When he then lost control over L'Manburg, it was the combined feeling of losing control and losing the people he had begun to care for (unknowingly) that drove him to the state where he wanted to destroy it all. Destroy the tool he feared others could use to gain power, but also the force that made him lose his friends. This combined made him feel like he couldn't handle it anymore, since he had a moral conflict between what he thought rationally (power) and what he felt and couldn't explain (friendship). Wilbur's character might not remember or know this anymore. After all, he spent over a decade in his Limbo in which he had more than enough time to start thinking differently about the past and to reason away any feeling of friendship. Just think about how you think back about your past. You only remember that much, and if you have nothing else, it is easy to change how you interpret your past experience to fit a certain narrative you made for yourself. Wilbur, as a character of rationale, wanted the power side to be true, so he slowly re-formed his memories in such a way where this was the only side left. Maybe the feeling of friendship will come back once he is more used to being around people again, but for now he rejects even the suggestion such a thing can exist (for him) due to his seemingly eternal separation from any force proving this mentality to be wrong.

[@ludsi4385]

The main reason why I call dream a villain is the exile and the fact, that he called tommy a toy during the last disc fight. I don't understand his motivations there. Before that he never really was a villain. And btw he only helped Pogtopia because he didn't like Jschlatt.

[@lucianoroberti1734]

i think in the end he might have been trying to sell himself as a villain for me the whole disc finale was rigged by dream and punz

[@ConnorDrawss]

(oops this is a long comment but I really loved the video and wanted to add something more xP) When Lmanburg first started out and I started watching the Dreamsmp for the first time, I always had this question on my mind: Why is everyone saying TOMMY is the hero? From the very start of the server he had done nothing but try and annoy others, destroy stuff, break some of the THREE rules on the server. (steal and grief or whatever) Even then Dream wasn't that provoked by it untill something major happened (Ponks lemon tree getting burned down, I think Tommy did it but I dont remember exactly) and even when that happened he only tried to stop it, only for Tommy's stubbornness to get in the way. He was painted as the villain by Wilbur and Tommy, not that he was a dictator, but because he went against their ideals. (Tommy was chaotic and greedy for stuff, while Wilbur wanted power and division in the server) At first, Dream just did what he thought was for the better of the server, (trying to stop Lmanburg n stuff, knowing it was just a tool for Wilbur to gain power) but overtime he actually did turn into a more villain role. (Exile arc is a great example) He is now a hero to Wilbur in the sense that he saved him, but to everyone else he is seen as a villain due to his terrible actions later on. They painted him to be a villian from the beginning, and so that's what they got. Personally, I never saw him as a hero, (Tommy and Dream) just people who fought for their ideals. The fandom and those around him saw Tommy as a hero because, well..everyone loves a good story. "Someone fighting for something? Hell yeah, let's root for them and hope they win!" He's seen as a hero because we never really got to see Dreams perspective much, and so everyone assumed his ideals were mischievous. They weren't though, but it didn't matter anymore, since Tommy had a team (og Lmanburg team) and would do anything to win the war. (The Lmanburg independence war) This is why I love the Dreamsmp, it's so complex and the characters arent just "this guy bad and this guy good." Btw it may seem like I am, but I'm not a Dream Apologist by any means, (I'm actually a Techno apologist for the sole reason that pig doing war crimes are funny hehe look at him blow up that nation) but I can understand that at first he was never meant to be a villian, and only overtime he become to be one, to fit the narrative of the two most chaotic people in the server. mmm lore

[@m.a3646]

I feel like most of Techno apologists( including me) understand Dream more, cus we never see Tommy as the good guy and i completely agree with you

[@lieeeleeee]

we hear this argument so much on the subreddit and yeah ok your right but i just despise that anytime anyone try to talk about dream you get "he was painted as the villain" it just ruins dreams agency. I also think in terms of the disc war that happened before lmanburg dream did want that control over tommy as well as retaliating justly. The disc stuff went on a lot longer than the ponk and alyssa conflict to the point that no one remebers what that was about. Tommy didnt need to be kept in check with the discs as much as he was. Yes this was to keep peace in his mind, but you can literally see in dreams earlier motivations exactly how his motivations became truly villainous, its the same ideas that make dream do actually terrible things. Dream chose to become evil wilbur didnt just go "wake up babe time to be villain" and dream went "yes babe". I understand the dream was an antagonist at first and became a proper villain later but this has been over discussed in the community and is such a frustrating argument. Mostly because its all based on how you personally interpret character and their motivations and your personal morals. when the painted as a villain argument gets made often enough detail isnt given to make it understood that that doesnt mean dream became a villain by pure happenstance. As soon as people see this argument they latch onto it and use it as the be all end all dream defence and opens up to more black and white thinking rather than thinking of dream as very dark grey. Dream wasnt actually super bad at the start should be a thought experiment in understanding other's perspectives and questioning how tommy and wilburs charisma and manipulation of the narrative affects us as an audience, not as a we've been wrong all along everyone have immense sympathy for dream now time to change everything about how your perceive the story. Dream is currently the villain and was the antagonist before.

[@duykhangtran4406]

Dream was painted as the villain at first and then the fall to a deep end in a desperate attempt to turn the server back to what it once was

[@sageyt4808]

Yes!

[@AshLeeFourOhFour]

I really think that at one point c!Dream really did want peace, and for everyone to get along. Remember that in the beginning, c!Dream was ok with them creating L'manburg, as long as he could visit it too? When c!Tommy and c!Wilbur refused, it messed with his perfect, peaceful world he wanted. As time went on, he took more and more drastic measures to try to make everything exactly the way he wanted it to be. I think that in some messed up way, c!Dream does care about the others. You can see it in the way he seemed genuinely happy that c!Tommy visited him in the prison. He tried to fix everything, but went crazy in the process, destroying any hopes of him having that "big happy family" he told c!Tommy about.

[@Gingersnap499]

I think he does care in some weird way, but I think he seemed genuinely happy not because Tommy visited, but because it gave him an opportunity. An opportunity to take control of Tommy again, manipulating him like in exile, he even refers to it as that while Tommy is there. He’s even quoted saying, “Exile wasn’t that bad, I mean me and you got to hang out, right,” something along those lines. Overall, yes, I do believe that Dream cares in some odd way of his own.

[@notmaku298]

Wilbur + Dream = *_VIOLENCE_*

[@brendofire2084]

what about Tommy?

[@yourbankaccount3564]

@@brendofire2084 he just took dead person to a guy who revives dead people and got surprised why did he revive him, so yea tommy can be alone and there will be chaos or violence

[@brendofire2084]

@@yourbankaccount3564 honestly though, Tommy is the king of violence. He after all, was the one who brought it in the first place

[@fluffyura1820]

Wilbur + Dream + Techno = Chaos

[@brendofire2084]

@@fluffyura1820 I believe you forgot Tommy

[@akshath2601]

He is back again with a story that gives us goosebumps

[@dontwatchmyvideosyoullregr9072]

Who else wants a animated Netflix series about the dream smp

[@toonthopia5543]

Same

[@johnplays7600]

I think I actually saw someone trying to make an animated series, they even got ponk to voice himself.

[@Iys_cloud]

@@johnplays7600 LINK. N-O-W

[@gc-9172]

@@Iys_cloud search up dream amp animated series

[@loneykids2742]

i think the reason that the exile arc is how it is, i think its because they were trying to find their footing after wilbur left the writing team.

[@eimanb3887]

My opinion on it: Dream is an Anti-hero. He isn't a fully GOOD person, but he does mean well. He resorts to violence a little too quickly, and can be swayed by anger and frustration, but he always comes back to good, and does everything for the betterment of the server. Tommy's exile arc showing Dream's 'cruelty' is basically showing how his bitterness got to him, but if you look at it, Dream saw Tommy as a threat to the server, as he states in his secret base, Tommy has been a headache, bringing war and terror to the SMP. His 'cruelty' was basically him being a little extra angry during tommy's exile, but I feel like he wouldn't have been so bad to say, Techno, if he had been exiled, because so far, Techno hasn't done anything to annoy Dream specifically, and is usually allied with him, for better or worse. Dream has been against Tommy because of Tommy's actions, and he isn't against people who do bad for his server. Tommy was exiled from L'manburg for allying with its enemy, and Dream got use out of that by exiling him for his bad actions to the server itself, starting conflicts. Dream is basically a character who resorts to violence quickly, though with good reason. He may do bad things, but gets away with them, because he then leaves. He does what he believes is right, then leaves things to sort themselves out. He does not interfere without reason and when he does, he is seen as a villian. Note: This is all talking in the sense of CHARACTERS, not the real PEOPLE.

[@izar1670]

I agree. Dream is trying to do good but he is executing it the wrong way.

[@sp4c1ng_0ut8]

"His 'cruelty' was basically him being a little extra angry during tommy's exile" Um yeah, no, I respect everyone else's opinions, even though C!Dream is fucked up, but at least others denounced his exile actions, if nothing else. A little bitterness doesnt excuse manipluation, gaslighting, or whatever stockholm syndrome shit that was happening.

[@RequiringAXEZ]

in my opinion, Dream is willing to play the villain to bring back peace to the server. Funny to think that he's playing as Lelouch in the smp. I believe that Dream and Ranboo has the same goal but is taking on different paths. In Ranboo's case he chooses people and hates the idea of choosing sides, while Dream also chooses people and is planing to remove all sides, he mostly uses people to get the peace he wants in the server which ends up poorly because no one really likes being manipulated. If you put it this way, you'll actually get the concept that wilbur said everyone is moraly gray in the story.

[@hulfe2514]

Sometimes watching Tommy's chat spam "KILL HIMMMM" makes me a little confused, since most of the times, it's either just Tommy being an annoying child or he's actually breaking rules and making discord.

[@sageyt4808]

He manipulated Tommy into near suicidalness! He blew up his home multiple times and mocked it. Also alot more.

[@etienneporras7252]

Wilbur himself has told Philza (and the audience) that he specifically wrote (and requested that the trend continued) the SMP characters to be NEITHER good NOR bad. He asked that there should be "no black or white, only grey". Honestly, I think this is what makes the Dream SMP story arc so enticing. There are no "heroes" nor are there "villains", there are only HUMANS.

[@etienneporras7252]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/pIbTYoOnfq9nrrs 15:18 right toward the end

[@lumauve7807]

Technically "the end justifies the means" Kind of character. Dream isn't the anti-hero as much as Technoblade is but along the way he became the villain of the story after his mental health deteriorated and no longer cared at all. It's like when you make the perfect art piece then something goes horribly wrong or you can't do something right so you decide to just break it all up, everything you once cared and built all blown into pieces by your own hands (kind of like Wilbur) Then Dream proceeds to torment everyone now that he's accepted the role of villain. Kind of sad how some of the stories of each character started from little conflicts and misunderstandings to irreversible mistakes that wound up breaking themselves and their relationship with those around them.

[@intotheindie8821]

I think that he is more of a fallen hero, where he was bright and optimistic, but knew when to get dirty. But it was certain points that started to wear him down and make him more of a villain, like how he learned the importance of leverage ever since the disk war

[@arcaneforce5885]

ever since the start of the manberg pogtopia arc when i actually started watching (cause techno joined) that the heroes the the members of l'manberg tommy and wilbur where just not who they were made out to be, and i couldn't put it into words until the doomsday war. it was like my subconscious was just telling me that they were not the good guys.

[@darklight5562]

Psychology was pretty much screaming at me from the start when I started to wonder if Dream is actually the villain. From my POV, he only wanted peace on the server. Everyone was allowed to do whatever the fuck they wanted as long as they stuck to the three rules, but as we know, it didn't go the way he wanted. I honestly don't think he meant to kill Tommy in that one stream, the one where they were stuck in the prison. Yes, Sam did say that Dream laughed at him but that's pretty much all Sam said, that Dream laughed. When I imagine the scene, I see Dream kneeling in front of Tommy, knowing that he just did something that wasn't part of the plan. He let his anger get the best of him, all the emotions were just bottling up. He only starts to laugh from all the confusion sudden glee that someone has when losing their sanity. The lava, the quill, and the book couldn't help him in any way, his whole mental state was pretty much rotting. And Tommy was making it worse with every argument. Dream tries to make a calm small talk, Tommy snaps at him to shut up. This whole thing on repeat.

[@user-cx9un9fs7q]

This video showed me why I never thought of Dream as a villain I never gave a shit about lemanburg :) Dreams an anti hero, he’s always doing the thing that’s best for the server, for it to be peaceful. And he would take any sacrifices needed to do so. Even his own sanity. Even becoming a sociopath. Even killing half the server. Just so the people left would get along.

[@chasedibrhim8468]

True

[@samurexatlas7373]

Dream isn's a hero or a villain. He's what's known as an Anti-Hero. Good, but also bad. Fighting for what he sees as right.

[@Ani]

Very well put!

[@omnitroph1501]

the problem is that "what he sees as right" is his complete control of the entire server and all of the people on it. Or, a step further, his own personal power. It stops looking like "the greater good" when you consider the vault full of leverage we saw in the finale.

[@EtrnlCntr]

@@omnitroph1501 Dream wants control for peace but this reason started to twist in the exile arc, the new writers thought Dream was the villain at the time when he really was not, we will probably get a Dream redemption arc because Wilbur is back to writing. Dream does bad for good basically. If he achieved his goal earlier: No more major wars. Tommy wouldn't have experienced death or lose his 3 canon lives. Tubbo would have 2 canon lives. The server is together. less vandalizing on the server. Technoblade would not be angered.

[@lucianoroberti1734]

@@omnitroph1501 i think when he has all of the leverage he would stop all conflict

[@cherechesalexdaniel811]

6:55 now that is debatable. Pogtopia being the "good guys" especially when Wilbur is leading them is really debatable. But i agree that the destruction of New L'manburg was a good thing. To see how much L'manburg corrupted its leaders just look at Tubbo the "good" president and Jschlatt the " bad" president when they functionally did the same things. exiling Tommy, having a public execution, hosting a festival that was a cover up murder attempt, even having Quackity as vice president. The only difference is that Schlatt was actually elected. Also under Wilburs administration L'manburg blew up once but under Schlatts it didn't blow up at all. Technically Schlatt was already dead and Tubbo was president. So when considering it from the country's standpoint Schlatt was the best president and also right. The country went down with him...

[@myvstz]

Here is something people take the wrong way; In many movies, "antagonists" are "villains" In this case, "c!Dream" is the antagonist for pretty much a lot of the characters, it's maybe because of that he was labled as a "villain" Like Animagician said, "Dream did the bad thing for a good reason." Antagonist doesn't necessarily mean "villain," antagonist simply potrays the character who stood in the way of the main character, but they're not always wrong. To me, the DSMP is a very unique story, seeing that we can look through so many POVs. Personally, I see life a story in which you (Yourself) is the main character of your own life. There will definitely be challenges ahead and those who will stand against you. Those people who stand against you are the "antagonist" of your story, but does that really mean they're villains? Definitely not, because an antagonist is the main character of their own story. But then again...is the world that black and white? There has gotta be some gray area somewhere, right? Of course, there are some inexcusable things that c!Dream did, no doubt, but the motive behind that is not exactly "wrong" in a sense. Everything is "right" in the same way everything is "wrong," at the end of the day, it's really just a matter of perspective. Again, this is just my opinion, but, c!Dream is definitely not a hero, but he's also not a villain. Whoever read this, thanks for reading :D

[@fohila]

This video is basically just, “What is your definition of a villain?” In reality, anyone can be the villain in the DSMP at this point

[@sophiem8785]

Do yall remember when dream said to tommy after new l'manberg was gone : C!Tommy : you're evil, why did you have to do that ? C!Dream : Honestly it's much more fun this way... I think c!dream was a hero once but now that he discovered the way of getting what he want by manipulation, gaslighting, death threats, terrorism and the list goes on... he enjoys playing the bad guy and loves seeing other people suffer just in order to get what he wants. He's cleary a psychopath or a sadist one of them 🤔

[@toonthopia5543]

You know, your conclusion was actually pretty satisfying

[@Godlikkomni]

I don’t think dream is a good character but I think he is a crucial part of the plot since dream smp is build around the fact that “morals can change from different points of views” and him being portrayed as a villain is maybe building up to a plot twist at the finale that nobody is the hero in the smp but everyone has a good side in their own morals

[@TedsAttic]

Can't wait for the Tommy hero arc

[@crimson-cloud]

He really needs it tbh. He is the main character, but not at all a hero

[@didistealyourname2541]

@@crimson-cloud He is the center of attention not main charcter

[@moonwalker1155]

@@didistealyourname2541 no he us the main character although they say everyones is. When tommy isnt in the lore stuff really doesn’t progress. This is literally why the timeline is before tommy and after tommy lmaoo.

[@Missingno_Miner]

@@didistealyourname2541 Center of attention, therefore, main character.

[@satchelharding189]

Hero?

[@luizcookie7583]

Great video, just roll up all the thoughts of the story) Aren't dream have something like The HERO-complex? Save everyone and all... But isnt his actual goal like you said in the video is to MAKE everything and everyone life in peace NO MATTER what? I mean he drived crazy only after Tommyinnit and some of his friends just crossed the line between unacceptable and unforgivable, and dream just wanted to stop it by disks. Just loosed control like willbur... He even build a whole prison only for Tommy! And dream also did not say that he gonna take 2 of 3 Tommy's canon lives, if Awesomedude build most of it on Dreams ideas then dream thought about visiters of Tommy, and we dont even know what happened before dream wanted to lock Tommy, maybe awesomedude rebuild some rooms of prison and the one that dream was locked which was for tommy in the first place! Maybe that room was bigger and looked a lot of better, yeah yeah "How you get the idea that it was rebuild?!" i mean does we ACTUALLY SEEN how was the prison in the first place? even awesomedude didn't stream about it. All we know is that dreams collecting room and that dream understands around in prison a little, and again that ALL that we and probably him knew until all those for whose peace Dream fought come up and make him a villian... Who wouldn't drive crazy? Tommy even killed the cat that was given to dream right in front of him, thats cruel. I think i over did it aren't i? 😅.... Sorry

[@roseswonderland8757]

Thank you finally someone with a similar thought process as mine Like come on let's face it they are no heroes or villains everyone is morally Grey

[@polardirt4835]

6:58 "Yes Daddy Dreeam!!!" -A Wilbur Soot quote

[@Me-tp5eg]

wilbur the anti-hero and dream is the anti-villain. ... man thats cool.

[@rubywhistler869]

i think it's swapped, but yeah, foils aren't they? great writing

[@halieutecha]

@@rubywhistler869 MY FAVORITE BLOGGER RUBY WHISTLER FROM TUMBLR IS THAT YOU :D

[@rubywhistler869]

@@halieutecha hii yes it's me :D

[@reginamercado4869]

I think it's actually swaped: Dream: The end justify the means. Wilbur: The means justify the end.

[@Me-tp5eg]

@@reginamercado4869 probably i wasnt paying too much attention in english class

[@Hater67876]

Animaigician: Destroying New L'manburg was a good thing Avid Technoblade Fans: Yes.

[@haneamiya]

imo i feel like dream smp is an like grey area where no one is right or wrong in this story.

[@thehappycockatiel9568]

5:00 I am more distracted about the fact Dream pogging that jump and Skeppy taking constant fall damage from failing

[@thatguyonyoutube9338]

Short answer “No” Long answer “Maybe, but No”

[@jrproductions3345]

So what I'm getting at dream is like injustice superman doing bad for good reason, Wilbur is lexlutor, lexloutor wanted superman's power and just like wilbur he wanted dreams power, Jshlatt is like the joker bringing out the bad in everyone allies and enemies alike, Techno is Redhood saying they both believe their are good people but won't hesitate to kill someone who he sees as an enemy like techno said "for those who gave me kindness I'll give them their kindness back 10 fold but those who hurt me and my friends I'll give it back to them 1000 times worse" or something along those lines, Ranboo is like The Flash choosing the people the only diffrence is that the flash had to either choose batman or superman, Tommy is like BlueBeatle following his heart feeling like he had to do everything themselves

[@bediebysstar1939]

Wilbur is most likely gaslighting Tommy into believing he never cared for L’Manberg. edit: what did I say

[@paige741]

I disagree, if you listen to what Wilbur says he says that he took an oath that he would not lie. In order to gaslight someone you have to lie to a certain extent.

[@bediebysstar1939]

@@paige741 that oath is false. As someone who has experienced and heard similar things to what Wilbur has said, I can almost guarantee that he had never taken that oath.

[@paige741]

@@bediebysstar1939 I guess that was just my wishful thinking, I always hope to see the good in everyone, even if that good that I look for doesn't exist

[@Missingno_Miner]

@@paige741 Or maybe the oath is part of the gaslighting.

[@paige741]

@@Missingno_Miner That makes sense, Wilbur wants to gain Tommy's trust so Wilbur lying about not lying is a strong possibility

[@mr.depthleviathan5425]

I like how Techno is one of the ONLY people able to hold a positive relationship with Dream like 'Yo! How's it going roommate?' It's hilarious. And honestly, Those two are like Thanos: They have good intentions, but must do bad things for those good intentions to come to fruition.

[@sdpbn1]

My thoughts exactly "the hardest choices require the strongest wills"

[@catspiracytheorist1286]

Basically everything the Dream Apologists have been trying to say as explained by a non-Dream apologist

[@meg.an0]

kinda wish we got Dream character lore, like a way to see inside his mind. it would help us better decipher why the turn in his action was so drastic (eg, slap on the wrist for l'manberg declaring independence to outright gaslighting and manipulation). youre right, Dream did supposedly bad things for the right reasons, but whered it go wrong? why was he so obsessed with control after a point that he was willing to do terrible things to others? the cause for action never changed, but what went to wrong to start Dream down that path and even make him think it was okay? is it the isolation from all his friends, the constant frame of a villain (despite only wanting universal peace), the constant conflict Tommy creates? theres so many questions we can ask about Dream's psyche that would better explain why he does "villain" things. is he a hero? yeah, no. but i think we might start seeing drastic changes in his character when/if he gets out of prison just due to his time in there. dream's mind is something i WISH we could look into more, just like Wilbur, so we can know his exact motive.

[@firstattempt2588]

You’re forgetting the whole stealing everyone sentimental items or animals, I feel that, that is a antagonistic play

[@Berds7273]

Also you know the 1x1 Skeppy cage

[@LucarioBot]

And gaslighting tommy

[@lorrainecadiang1494]

that part is just stage dream didn't actually care about sentimental items and animals I think you need more digging about dreams character

[@rifticle1696]

Revived Wilbur acts more like Schlatt, he wants power, he's more selfish, he talks like him "Do you ever just stick it to the man?", using L'manberg as a tool. Some of this might not make sense because I havent been paying attention to the Dream SMP for the last 5 months.

[@crappyj7603]

Great video with expert editing and amazing research as always. Keep it up. Also how the hell are you pumping out such quality this quickly, it's splendid.

[@Ani]

Much appreciated!

[@happyboi7016]

This video is the Dream SMP equivalent of Game Theory’s “Thanos was right” video

[@lizzarliz]

The true hero of the story is gogy, he's done no wrong.

[@Ani]

SO TRUE SO TRUE

[@sageyt4808]

@Balance of The hill Gogs only does right.

[@mauryawadhwa5295]

All this is cool but Dream making that jump perfectly and Skeppy failing it each and every time is hilarious

[@Cool_Name_12]

I don't think dream's the villian or the hero nor do I think Tommy's the main character or the hero. I like to think that the dream smp and everyone in it have their own story they have their reason to do bad and good. It's like the real world where there is no one really that bad people just have their own reason to do something bad or good.

[@loreyxplayz8]

Tommy's no where near the hero

[@Animallover24678]

@@loreyxplayz8 true

[@junkfilesnotworthy]

but tommy's presence has the most relevance no matter who you r in the smp

[@Missingno_Miner]

Annnnnd there's the shitty "nobody is good or evil" argument based on both bias towards the people who play the characters and a complete failure to understand how grey morality works. Grey morality means the heroes aren't perfect, like how Tommy makes mistakes and Tubbo was a poor leader who allowed himself to be used by Dream and Quackity, and the villains have good reason to do what they do, or at least good intentions, like Techno's anarchism pre-retirement and post-doomsday war. Within grey morality, there are different shades of grey. Dream isn't grey, hasn't been since L'Manburg formed. This is a guy who destroyed a peaceful country several times, with the last time being solely because it was a "more fun" way to punish Tommy for resisting him, who psychologically tortured a child, who destroyed a prized landmark and blamed said child, who drove away his friends because he believed attachments were a liability, a weakness. c!Dream is not morally grey. He's as black as it gets.

[@Missingno_Miner]

@Balance of The hill It's not a matter of admitting anything, it's a matter of not willfully ignoring the actual meaning of grey morality to excuse Dream's actions.

[@mc-maitrixgaming4330]

I came to some of the same conclusions Me questioning whether dream was the villain or hero stemmed from a simple animatic saying”what if the villain wasn’t really the bad guy (showing dream and technoblade), what if the hero wasn’t really good (showing Wilbur, Tommy and Tubbo) Ironically this animatic got me to dig deeper into y each side did what they and what reasons they had to back their actions up

[@ExtremeDaveYT]

Okay here's how I view the exile arc. Tommy burnt down George's house (a citizen of the greater dream smp) I E, ruining the peace between new l'manburg and they had to exile him for punishment of his actions but dream knowing Tommy enforced exile by destroying his stuff to make sure he couldn't go anywhere else. But during this dream constantly thought of his actions slowly believing himself to be "the villain" and that led to who he is today. The power hungry Dream instead of peace of around the server Dream.

[@aWERFRGT6545BGFG]

Dream claimed that Schlatt was actually making Manberg a threat which is the only reason why Dream went against him at first. And during the pet war where Dream was helping Tommy lavacast a building, Dream said that he was only helping Tommy because he likes the destruction. But I still think you made great points here and are probably right

[@machatsui766]

oh my god FINALLY someone could put my thoughts into words I LOVE YOU ANI

[@izar1670]

About the Doomsday Arc: I completely agree with you that yes, it was better for L'Manburg to be destroyed, but I feel that Techno and Phil had an actual reason to destroy it, but Dream just wanted to destroy it for power. I feel like Tommy never really cared about L'Manburg ever since he got exiled. Think about it: Tommy quickly realized that L'Manburg was no good for the server, he teamed up with Techno and had no problem with it being destroyed, and when Tommy betrayed Techno, it wasn't for L'Manburg it was for his friendship with Tubbo. To this day, Tommy isn't really aligned with any up-holding power and just lives on his own. He even declined Tubbo's invite to Snowchester. That's how I see the Doomsday Arc.