was GENE BERG WRONG? about thermostats and VW engine cooling?

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Tesla coil Lighter really cool love this thing like 5 bucks amzn.to/3o9UXSz

[@Mikefngarage]

I find reading these old articles great entertainment. But some people see them as the bible.....Needs interpretation. I really respect what Gene Berg brought to the table and He was really right at the time. We read the newsletters from every large tech at the time and utilized that information to better the game.

[@riverbluevert7814]

I just did a test drive with a 1979 Beetle convertible. Outside temperature was 62F and I had the convertible top up. My engine is a stock FI 1600 DP. I measured temperature with a Laser IR gun. I measured three locations: 1. The crankcase temperature at the base of the oil sensor. 2. The air flap thermostat bellows. FI thermostats open at 176F to 185F. 3. Cylinder head temperature. I measured on the rear face of head 3-4 a few inches away from the exhaust manifold. After 5 minutes of idling: Crankcase: 93F Thermostat: 159F (closed) Head: 257F After 10 minutes of idling: Crankcase: 124F Thermostat: 188F (starting to open) Head: 292F After 15 minutes driving 25 to 35 mph: Crankcase: 194F Thermostat: 206F (open) Head: 300F After 20 minutes driving 65 to 75 mph: Crankcase: 218F Thermostat: 215F (open) Head: 290F From these measurements you can see the thermostat is intended to raise the oil temp quickly and then help control it. Here’s a link to an excellent study that measures the thermostat modulating open/close by about 10% after the engine reaches stable temperature with outside temperature 68F to 78F www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=705328 Most people running thermostats report crankcase temps of 180F to 220F depending on conditions.

[@Mikefngarage]

very similar numbers on my car with no thermostat. Head temp a bit cooler. Roughly 50 degrees. cooler head though. which will not hurt anything actually better for combustion. Except my oil temp stays just under 180 which is ok too That is with 2 coolers.. when hot. I have one car with thermostats and the warm up time is almost identical.

[@TheDasbull]

I live in Washington state, and back when I drove my '67 bus year round, I ran the stock thermostat. It worked as intended during cold winter weather. Now, I don't punish my old VW's (or myself) driving them in the winter 🥶. Thanks for the video!

[@randybriscoe5084]

Use a proplerly installed thermostat, the factory did the research with actual sensors and engineers. The warm up and thermal expansion rates of cast iron cylinders and aluminum heads is very different!

[@all-flat-engines]

I live in Canada (Alberta -40F) and I removed it, why? Because why would I ever drive this car in the salt and cold. It's survived this long, it deserves a good retirement away from the snow 😝

[@Mikefngarage]

Yea My wife is from Toronto I would never drive an old air cooled in the winter. Summers are definately warm enough for no therm.

[@Mikefngarage]

1776 single port information.....How does this engine run. It has massive bottom end torque. just barely touch the gas and at low RPM will pull really hard. Nice for daily driving. Still has some top end But more on the bottom where you want it on a bus. Way more power than stock cam. Climbs hills pretty well goes on the freeway with inch taller tires than stock. Stock 4.12 x .82 gear box big nut. Cruising speed 65 all day long. will do 70 or more but I would not cruise it there. Will not ping as far as I have driven it timing at around 32-34 deg total. Can be in 4th climbing a lot of hills at 60 with your foot on the floor. Literally for long periods of time without pinging or feeling of it getting hot. Cam number 580 dont have the specs on it. Was in core engine brand new. So I ran it just like that. compression ratio 8.5 premium fuel stock carb valve train.

[@Gunny426HemiPlymouth]

Sounds like what my dad would build for people with type 4s with collapsed lifters. A stock 1835 is what he called it. Had some work done inside, but could still run a stock carb. Did everything that 1.8 or 2.0 would do, and not give you issues. Was a dang good rail buggy motor too.

[@Mikefngarage]

@@Gunny426HemiPlymouth yea this sucker is like a tractor.

[@Mikefngarage]

@@Gunny426HemiPlymouth yea collapsed lifters and valve seats falling out of the type 4

[@burnite2]

I’ll gladly take all the cooling pieces you don’t use.

[@Mikefngarage]

unfortunately there are only maybe a few 40hp and 36hp tins around here. People have been removing them for years. all the thermostat stuff is never at any of the swaps. The reason there are those because someone yanked out the old motor and put it in a garage for 30 years and now they are showing up.

[@VB-bk1lh]

Back in the day we ran Kendall GT1 20W-50 oil with a remote fan cooled oil coolers and an iron Gene Berg oil pump with a stock diameter fan pulley. The big issue with newer oil was the fact that the newer oil had more detergents in it and it would carry the carbon and impurities through the motor. We would run a full flow filter plumbed through the block and oil pump. The big issue then was making sure the lines were super secure. We saw lots of engines lost because people used cheap fancy colored fittings and cheap hoses to their oil filter that would crank from vibration and loose oil pressure either due to the leak or total loss of oil. We would mount the oil coolers above the trans with a tin baffle and electric cooling fan.

[@bugnut82]

Interesting. I live in Bakersfield, where it's hotter than hell! I have a stock 40HP and I run a German thermostat and use 30W valvoline racing oil. I don't know if this is the best choice, but it works.

[@DJ-Way]

Lee Leighton did not use the thermostat. He built my first motor and told me so. Fuel doesn’t burn unless it is in a gaseous state. The thermostat is designed to bring up the head temperature quicker to keep fuel in the gaseous state as the vw intakes were known to condense the fuel into droplets, which doesn’t ignite. Very cold climates have more issues with fuel condensation. No other reason to have the thermostat other than getting fuel intake up to temperature quicker.

[@Mikefngarage]

definitely need heat risers I was going to cover that. Really need those.

[@kyridgejumper]

It would be cool to see a engine temp test on a engine running full synthetic oil compared to conventional oil

[@Mikefngarage]

probably similar temps but Lubricity it better with the Synthetic along with less sludge.

[@SereneOakTree-spqr]

In '77' , i had a 2110 with a vz35 cam 11 to one, webber dcnfs on 42x37.5 heads. High 12s in qtr. Wasnt a street car. Pulled it apart every winter. Ten yrs later, i lowered to 8 to one, went to a ratio cam with ratio rockers, lift and dur comp to vz35. Ran totalseal rings. Ran it on the street. Always rolled with doghouse cooler, added an oberg filter and large external cooler. I pulled it apart at 98k. Put new bearings in it, and ran another 102k til i sold it. I'm pretty sure the lower comp ratio, filter and extra cooler were the keys, because it wasnt my high rpm driving.

[@Business_Gator]

Agree thermostats aren’t needed in warm climates. Also the original German thermostats won’t hurt if you don’t remove them.

[@Mikefngarage]

just be aware it is possible for them to stick closed. I dont remember how or why it was stuck closed but we did have a Germán therm stuck closed at the shop many years ago.....Like 30 plus years. So I dont remember why, but it did happen. Once that I remember clearly but I believe there were others. Yea I still have the therm on my 36hp. works fine.

[@Business_Gator]

@@Mikefngarage Love your channel! You are such a great resource to the community… keep up the great work!

[@riverbluevert7814]

@@Mikefngarage I restored the thermostat in my Beetle two years ago. The flaps and linkage were practically frozen in place. After removing the crud, greasing the pivots, and straightening all the bent sheetmetal parts (from rough mechanics?) the entire flap mechanism operated smoothly. I suspect the "German stuck closed" thermostats you saw were actually rusted and frozen flap mechanisms. All moving mechanisms require lubrication and I don't think the flaps/linkages saw periodic lubrication in the 50s, 60s, 70s. BTW - putting a propane torch on a German thermostat, as your shop Boss did, is a good way to destroy them. Self fulfilling maybe.

[@Salmon_Rush_Die]

Just speaking generically, all internal combustion engines experience most engine wear typically on cold start. The logic behind the thermostat was to help the engine rise to operating temp asap so as to minimize the cold-start engine wear. On a racing engine, & in southern warm latitudes, or with restored garage queens that never get driven except on sunny summer days, engine warm-up perhaps not really an issue.

[@riverbluevert7814]

Here we Fn go again! 😃😄

[@Mikefngarage]

yea somebody pointed out that old article....School up the old schoolers who haven't learned new stuff yet.

[@riverbluevert7814]

@@Mikefngarage It's 60F today in the Northeast. I plan to go for a fast drive and measure heads, case, thermostat along the way with my IR laser (FI 1600 DP). I'll post it here. In general, I find the thermostat temperature is a lot closer to the case temperature than the head temperature.

[@redshirt-scotty]

@@riverbluevert7814 i read your results. nice bit of anecdote data. thanks for taking the time.

[@curranhouse]

I am always surprised by how much stuff hasn't moved forward in the vw world. You would think there would be electronic thermostat control by aftermarket. Electronic throttle control and so on..

[@williamfreret6859]

Gene Berg was improving oil cooling putting a Type 4 oil cooler in a dog house, not putting an oil cooler in front of the fresh air admission of the fan... What you say is ok in the warm states but not in all conditions meaning a cold state by example. It's not GB you are beating but VW ingeneers... Not only the total miles is important but does it concerns short trips, long trips meaning how many cool starts and so on. More damage on an engine with short trips compare to engine doing long trips, what about thermal expansions, etc...?

[@MarsGarage333]

Thanks for the great video, I'm new to bug and it's good learning. And the bug i just purchased is a 1600 and i verified and the car got no Thermostat and I'm from Canada in Northern Ontario and i will not run the car in Winter and this Winter i will drop the Motor to re paint the tin and anxious to see if they removed the trap in the dog house are they are close. i just change oil and i add classic 20W50 oil with zinc and i hope its the right oil.

[@Mikefngarage]

should be fine with that oil. use Castrol or if they have it there Kendall...Should be fine if your not driving it in the winter without thermostat. My wife is from Ontario summers and some late spring driving and early Fall should be fine. I dont think you want to salt the car so if your driving it in the summer months it is about like driving it in CA year around. gets down to +5 often C Here in the winter and NOBODY has thermostats. I run 20/50 all year around.

[@MarsGarage333]

@@Mikefngarage Thanks Mike i appreciate your feedback, This is what i put 20w50 Castrol for classic and agreed with you the car will be store and we deal enough with calcium and salt i don't want the Bug to touch it the car will be a summer toys and at this moment we are about 7 degree difference in temp and the summer we just pass was a hot one. keep going the nice video they are instructive.

[@harryloibl5183]

Thanks buddy I would be interested to visit you and your country to go to your vw and car shows😊😊

[@SlimWizard69]

Love the ted talks man keep em coming, also put flaps in my doghouse, welded open, it does run cooler at high speeds and long drives, also takes longer to warm up in the mornings,

[@Mikefngarage]

yea no therm really just a little bit difference. Hard to find flaps or thermostat linkage anywhere in CA at a swap meet.

[@vayabroder729]

@@Mikefngarage A guy called andrig aircooled techonology sells new fixed open flaps for reasonable and they bolt in.

[@OwhyeeVdub]

My two rigs didn't come with thermostats. I would have never know they were a thing.

[@Mikefngarage]

Cases from brazil dont even put the hole in there for the thermostat. Tells you something. They dont run them either.

[@davidamaral5100]

The vw engineers know more than you and I myself I respect them, synthetic oil sucks does not disapate heat also the thermostat in cold weather prevents shock to valve train in cold weather

[@Gunny426HemiPlymouth]

Awesome stuff man. Keep it up. I run Castrol in everything. 15 40, same results, it's darker but still comes out almost as slow as it goes it. Can't say that w Pennzoil.

[@brunomahle1618]

When I worked in a VW shop in the early seventies, every time one would come in with a burnt exhaust valve, ...we would pull all the exhaust valves and send them on their way....LMAO

[@Mikefngarage]

actually a great idea!!!! Emissions free car.

[@juanrojas4722]

Any help on how to prevent rear main seal leaks ?? Keep up the awesome vw videos !!!

[@Mikefngarage]

many different options back there I wish Chris was here for that he was an expert at getting them not to leak.

[@vintage76vipergreenBeetle]

Add a drain and vent to the case.

[@martinharris5017]

I use a double-lip oil seal. No more expensive than the stock seal. Install it pushed well into the case not flush. Use a thin smear of aviation liquid gasket on everything (belt and braces). When putting the flywheel back in, set the shims and end-play a million times and be certain you're happy with the play. Use a heavy duty gland nut and thick washer, They are cheap security. I've had a flywheel come loose. Its expensive. I used to follow the instruction to install seals flush with the case and always ended up with torn seal lips.

[@TheDasbull]

If you look at the VW rear main, it is designed to work while under oil pressure. Once the engine is off the lip "relaxes" allowing a very small amount of oil to seep past. Check your flywheel for groove worn into it - most flywheels are pretty old now 😉

[@martinharris5017]

@@TheDasbull Yeah true, even on my brand new flywheel and seal with excellent end=play I get a tiny drip while the car is sitting, but is perfectly dry and leak-free while running.

[@67VWForever]

But hay Mike we all know that oil temp and head temp are 2 different ones but if you run a outside oil cooler with temp fan it's much better for air to get to 3 and 4 Cylinders deleting stock cooler that's what I ran in my 64 from 1992 to 2021 never had an issue with over heating on a stock over 1641..

[@soggz4246]

Hello. Here in the UK,a lot of us like to run the flaps in the housing and the thermostat. It can be pretty cold in the mornings over here. You think it’s good to run all the original kit in lower temps? Or run it without… All the best.👍🏾🇬🇧🛠

[@Mikefngarage]

all year around here no thermostat. Our winters are sometimes 40 degrees. but every day for the most part goes up to 60 degrees at least..... if your summer months are only going up to a lower temp than that might run better on thermostat. But here My engine warms up enough really quickly.....I dont know your climate that well but here in CA....there really is no need. 5 minutes winter or summer my engine is completely warmed up. My car with thermostats warms up almost exactly the same winter or summer.

[@soggz4246]

@@Mikefngarage Here in winter, it can be -3 c sometimes. It’s mainly wet and cold here, but around now, it starts to warm up. It was 19c, today, but with rain and thunderstorms.What about using the flaps in the open position but with No thermostat so that the air is directed still? All the best👍🏾🇬🇧🛠

[@Mikefngarage]

@@soggz4246 yea that is like 29F so in the winter would be good having thermostat. Here is it +4c max and warms up to 15c about every day.

[@kyridgejumper]

Great video but the old dirt bike in the background is really cool I am guessing a yahama

[@Mikefngarage]

Hondera

[@RC-li9tv]

Outstanding presentation!

[@marcfisher7280]

I’m gonna have to talk to my fan shroud about this 🍻.

[@danvorobiov]

Hello. Is there a video on your channel about the best way to clean oil in VW Bug engines? Can you provide a link? Does an external filter with a paper insert help? Or is it ineffective?

[@Mikefngarage]

Oh yea adding a spin on filter is a great way to keep your engine alive a bit longer. On just about every rebuild I have the case machined for full flow then ad on a spin on oil filter. Ads more oil to the system and makes it a bit cleaner. Or if you have no filter on there just dump it and refill it often. I dont remove the screen when I do it all the time. Every 2000 miles or 3km

[@danvorobiov]

@Mike Fn Garage Thanks. I have Zaporozhets 968M, and it has centrifugal oil cleaner (very much like FIAT 500). VW Bug's engine was like a prototype for my engine, but ZAZ had a V-shape. Many people are trying to add spin-off oil filter, but unfortunately there is no tested, proven and well made solutions. According to a manual, centrifugal oil cleaner - it's a full flow oil cleaner of a very high level of filtration. So we have some debates about the performance of both systems.

[@jimmywilkinson9190]

Hey Mike ! in 1970 J.C.Whitney had a hop up kit (big bore) 87mm big deal but with it it came with a cam that had the back of lobe even with the core to give it more lift and to compensate for decking the heads . it also had some blue retainers and hardened keepers . then on that you use a power pulley ? they should had called it the over heat kit . I had it but never took it on a trip . That motor was the one that broke the pea shooter pipes off .

[@Mikefngarage]

OH yea 87 slip ons were totally useless power. Today, 87 thick wall with updated heads. are a game changer. its all that sort of thing I think Gene Berg was trying to school people up on. Lots of trash out there....Good old johhnys speed and chrome sold some stuff too....But JC was a big contributor to engine blow ups...Blow up some engines so we can sell more parts.

[@larrybrinley8222]

Has there been testing for synthetic oil in the type 1 engine?

[@martinharris5017]

Love these controversial talks Mike. Bob Hoover is another guru besides Berg who delivered Fire-and-Brimstone sermons against anyone removing their thermostat. Oil: I use Penrite "Extra 10" (10W60) as it is one of the very few oils available here in New Zealand that contains Zinc and is specifically designed for pre-unleaded engines.

[@Mikefngarage]

good oil is everything. I dont really know the climate there but if it is pretty warm may not need therm with todays oil.

[@martinharris5017]

@@Mikefngarage "Good oil is everything" Amen to that Mike! And frequent oil changes.

[@juharuotsalainen6938]

is mineral oil better than synthetic in the standard vw beetle 1300 model? do you mean that the adjustment flaps are set fully open and that would be ok? can the machine heat up if the flaps don't fully open?

[@garymallard4699]

1776 ?? 🤔 was that the Volkswagon Washington drove to start the Revolution??

[@redshirt-scotty]

agree on thermostats for warm climate. also don't like them because they don't "fail safe". you mentioned this condition in the prior vid but didn't have the term. when they fail the motor burns up. fail unsafe. and, one more thing, berg would say anything to sell product and his business and services. i knew he was a bs'er way back in the 80's when i first got into vws. can't tell you how often i've run into some old fart or newb who spews "bergs testing showed blah blah blah". relying on berg to do the thinking for you is a big mistake.

[@Mikefngarage]

very true....I like Bergs commentary but it is a guide not the bible and you really should think for yourself a bit. When I saw engines getting the same miles on a rebuild with or without thermostats. I was convinces it was not true. On an air cooled unlike water cooled the difference in a warmer climate on warm up is about 2 minutes max....Maybe less than that running cold. With good oil there would be little or no engine wear. Running too hot is very damaging though. The cracked heads theory was super pie in the sky from thermostats. OMG No data for that IMO.