Was Joseph Smith Actually a Polygamist?

[@lisa143justin]

I just think it's interesting that the more I sincerely tried to understand polygamy and be open to it, the more depressed I became over the matter. Despite sincere effort, I couldn't feel peace about it... not until I was led to watch 132 Problems by Michelle Brady Stone on youtube. I was bawling while watching the espisode on Joseph Smith and Emma. The dark fog that I had been under for years was finally lifted!! I never knew that polygamy not being of God was even an option! The truth really does set you free. I will never be weighed down by the false doctrine of polygamy ever again.

[@deborahdeering9818]

As a member of the Communiy of Christ (previously RLDS) I am thrilled by the things this Brother Broyak has said here! I’ve anxiously been sharing this with other members. For this has been the foundation of the RLDS church belief since Joseph Smith III’s gathering of the scattered saints. And to have documented info + the drawing of logical conclusions as to what happened so very satisfying to my soul! Thank you Brother Broyak!!😊

[@sdb816]

Didn’t the RLDS historian admit that JS did practice polygamy?

[@peaceliberty4all]

Joseph stated that he could prove that those who were accusing him of polygamy were perjurers. I believe that had he lived, he would have done just that.

[@annsertrue8782]

I agree that "someone is lying" Didn't Brigham claim that Emma poisoned Joseph and burned the revelation? Those stories don't seem plausible. So if Brigham lied about those incidents, what else did he lie about?

[@jeffreymax1822]

A LOT!

[@Fred-mp1vf]

Don't believe everything you read or hear. There's no shortage of malicious lies about the prophets Joseph and Brigham and false quotes of things they supposedly said. There's one sure way to know the truth , for those who are pure in heart. It is found in James 1 :5 and in Moroni 10 :4-5

[@HemlockKnots]

I’ve been looking for good evidence of his involvement and it’s pretty low quality. I don’t think there’s enough reliable evidence to convict Joseph smith of being involved. Conversely, there are 8-9 first hand, publicly declared contemporary accounts where Joseph condemns polygamy. He even excommunicated many who were practicing it.

[@sdfotodude]

The Nauvoo Expositor is a smoking gun that you can't deny was contemporaneous.

[@BTGordon]

Hemlock Knots is a petri dish wherein some gather, and begin by professing genuine desires for knowledge, but instead, end up trading the testimony of the spirit, for the “testimony” of “source documents” and develop a festering unquenchable hatred towards the Lords prophets and their teachings. They deny the many testimonies which have been born by those prophets and the spirit of truth that accompanies them. They deny the Holy Ghost.

[@Heartsinmelody]

@@sdfotodudewritten by JS enemies - hardly trustworthy. There were rumours floating around which JS fought to clear up. Once he died, those pushing polygamy while JS was alive were no longer hindered by the prophets rejection of the practice. BY polygamy has not resemblance to JS teachings

[@sdfotodude]

@@Heartsinmelody that is funny. These were just as the closest confidant. One of them was second in power in the first presidency. His recollection of Joseph fordham's is widely published

[@sdfotodude]

@@HemlockKnots when your best friends become your worst enemies, maybe it's you?

[@freethinker1026]

There is no credible evidence to base the Fanny Alger allegation as it come from the following sources: "Joseph asked Levi Hancock, the brother-in-law of Samuel Alger, Fanny’s father, to request Fanny as his plural wife: "Samuel, the Prophet Joseph loves your daughter Fanny and wishes her for a wife. What say you?” Uncle Sam says, “Go and talk to the old woman [Fanny’s mother] about it. Twill be as she says.” Father goes to his sister and said, “Clarissy, Brother Joseph the Prophet of the most high God loves Fanny and wishes her for a wife. What say you?” Said she, “Go and talk to Fanny. It will be all right with me.” Father goes to Fanny and said, “Fanny, Brother Joseph the Prophet loves you and wishes you for a wife. Will you be his wife?” “I will Levi,” said she. Father takes Fanny to Joseph and said, “Brother Joseph I have been successful in my mission.” Father gave her to Joseph, repeating the ceremony as Joseph repeated to him." If Joseph was trying to keep it a secret he wouldn't use an intermediary, thereby letting someone, unnecessarily, in on what he was doing We are also being asked to believe that Fanny's parents just casually gave their daughter to an older married man as if it were no big deal. Neither Fanny nor her parents ever made any record or claim that Fanny had been chosen to be the Prophets first plural wife. But most important is the source of the account which is as follows: "The sole detailed account of when and how the relationship began comes from Fanny Alger’s first cousin Mosiah Hancock (1834-1907). Hancock, who was a toddler at the time the relationship was discovered and not yet been conceived at the time it supposedly started wrote his account in 1896 as an addendum to the autobiography of his father, Levi Hancock. Although Levi Hancock had written regarding about his own life at the time in question, he had omitted any direct reference to Joseph Smith’s relationship with his niece Fanny (daughter to his sister Clarissa Hancock Alger). Mosiah, believing he had accurate information to fill this lacuna, did so. Autobiography of Levi Ward Hancock (with additions by his son Mosiah Hancock dated “Farmington Davis Co Co [sic], 1896”), 61-64-writing of Mosiah Hancock." Then you have the claim that Emma threw Fanny out of the house yet that allegation comes from Ann Eliza Webb who wasn't even born at the time (born in 1844) Again no credibility. The barn story comes from a letter written by William McLellin in 1872 (30 years after Joseph's death) to Joseph's son, in an attempt to convince him that his father practiced polygamy. William McLellin had been excommunicated by Joseph, he robbed the prophet when he was in liberty jail and asked the sheriff for permission to flog Joseph. This man claimed in his letter that after Joseph's death Emma confided in him about the barn incident. There is not a shred of credibility to that story just the writings of a man who had proven he hated Joseph. To base the claim that Joseph had any type of inappropriate relationship with Fanny on the word of people who weren't even born at the time or were enemies to Joseph is just ludicrous. There is absolutely no basis for the claim that Joseph had an affair with or was married to Fanny.

[@l7846]

2 27 24 Pretty amazing. Have only listened to this once. I'm a 'missionary ' convert. The denial of Black ordination and this polygamy thing were the questions... I hav always wondered: where are the children of all of Joseph's wives, if he actually had marital relations with the slew of women attributed to him? I have not heard of one. DNA science could resolve that, of course. Your introduction reminding us of the reality that the winner writes the report must be considered. My testimony is of the Book of Mormon and of the Atonement.... I so look to the "big video in the sky" for all these other things.

[@freethinker1026]

They have done DNA tests on those who claimed to have offspring with Joseph and it was proven they were not.

[@asarg1776]

I’m just coming back to watch this video again after over a year 😊 I saw your comment and thought I’d share a video I bet you’d find interesting. Look up on KZbin a channel for Bruce Porter and find his video called Cain, Abel and the priesthood. All scriptural. And explains the priesthood “ban” better than anything I’ve ever heard. He made it make sense.

[@rowleskids]

DNA science has already been done, all the most likely descendants of Joseph were disproven.

[@randalloveson8441]

Excellent video and points. Thank you. One criticism - The claim that Emma "witnessed the transaction in the Barn" between Joseph and Fannie comes from only one source, William McLellin. Problem is that he didn't report this until the 1870s in two separate letters he wrote. AND he claims that Emma confided this to him privately AFTER Joseph's death. How likely is that? I'd say about zero percent likely. Why? Because WM left the church during the Missouri crisis and turned on Joseph and his family, even robbing the Smiths of basic necessities while Joseph was in Liberty Jail. Doesn't sound like the kind of many that Emma would have confided anything with, no? There are some additional excellent sourced books written by the Price couple called "Joseph Fought Polygamy" They are on their 3rd or 4th volume. They are available online.

[@sdfotodude]

Joseph didn't report the first vision for a dozen years and it changed for the following decades many times. So Your point is?

[@dr33776]

What was Oliver referencing about the “dirty, nasty filthy affair” according to your theory?

[@randalloveson8441]

@@dr33776 the original letter does not use the word affair. That was clearly written in later with different handwriting.

[@dr33776]

@@randalloveson8441 ok, let’s get technical the word is scrape, this is the definition of the 1828 Webster dictionary: SCRAPE, noun 1. A rubbing. 2. The sound of the foot drawn over the floor. 3. A bow. 4. Difficulty; perplexity; distress; that which harasses. [A low word.] What did Oliver mean with a “dirty, nasty filthy scrape”?

[@randalloveson8441]

@@dr33776 my wife and I took in a woman we knew from our prior residence in another state. We had some very clear rules in place about behavior and expectations. When she refused to follow the plan laid out and we brought it to her attention, allowing her a few more weeks to rectify the situation she began immediately to attempt to drive a wedge between my wife and me. She accused me of bullying, she told my wife she received a revelation that I was not her soul mate, she made disparaging remarks about my “abusive behavior” to my children. Needless to say, she was asked to leave immediately. I would certainly define that as a “dirty, nasty, scrape” wouldn’t you?

[@theQiwiMan]

Thank you for this, this was amazing.

[@freethinker1026]

Great points on Joseph Kingsbury, just want to add that Joseph Kingsbury refused to testify under oath on the matter stating, “I do not swear to that; I affirm to it. To my mind there is a difference between swearing to anything and affirming to it...I generally affirm, and I suppose it is because my understanding is that a man cannot be convicted of perjury on an affirmation, and he can when he is sworn.” (temple lot case)

[@freethinker1026]

Joseph wasn't lying nor was he involved in polygamy and more and more people are being led to the truth. "Joseph F. Smith wrote to Orson Pratt on July 19, 1875, and stated that, as he began to put together evidence of Joseph’s involvement in polygamy and its historical unfolding, he “was astonished at the scarcity of evidence, I might say almost total absence of direct evidence upon the subject” (Brian C. Hales, Joseph Smith’s Polygamy 1:9; italics added) "To assert that Joseph Smith was afraid to promulgate that doctrine [polygamy], if the command to do so had come from God, is to charge him with a moral cowardice to which his whole life gives the lie. Nor does it charge him alone with cowardice, but brands his compeers with the same undeserved approbrium. The very fact that men are now found who dare to present and defend it, is proof positive that Joseph and Hyrum Smith would have dared to do the same thing had they been commanded so to do. The danger to the lives of those men would have been no more imminent, nor any greater in the preaching of "Celestial Marriage," than it was in preaching the "Golden Bible" and the doctrine that Joseph Smith was a prophet blessed with di vine revelation. For the preaching of these tenets many lost their lives; Joseph and Hyrum Smith were repeatedly mobbed, were imprisoned and finally died, in the faith originally promulgated, but- if we may judge from their public records,- not believers in polygamy." (Joseph Smith III, Reply to Orson Pratt [tract], 4) "But says one, "that (denouncing polygamy) was only a sham to blind the eyes of our enemies." Shame on the man, or set of men, who will thus wilfully charge the two best men of the nineteenth century, the two Prophets of the most high God, with publishing to the church and the public at large a lie, and signing their names to it. "Oh! but it was done to save their lives." A very likely story, when those two men had faced death and the world for fourteen long years, preaching the word of God to a sin- cursed generation. No, no, it will not do, you must meet the truth with better weapons than that, if you expect to make much of a battle. Besides all that, Is it not written, that "He who seeketh to save his life shall lose it, and he who loseth his life for my sake shall find it," and did not they know this. Yes, a thousand times yes; it was their hope, their consolation in times of danger." Alexander H. Smith

[@andreacook2416]

I’s like to see you have a discussion with Don Bradley about this.

[@derek_davidson]

Just now discovering your video. What are your thoughts on Brian Hales' volumes regarding this topic?

[@austinarchibald]

He hasn't read those, otherwise he wouldn't peddle this ridiculous dribble. He hasn't dove into the history, but he's troubled about it. Head in the sand. Been fighting these ridiculous lies from Snufferites for years on the LDS Freedom Forum. I love Connor, love most of his musings, I'm also an anarchist, but he's dead, dead wrong on even suggesting Joseph didn't sleep with his wives. Read Brian Hales, George Smith, Todd Compton, Michael Quinn - there's tons of 1st hand testimony from reputable witnesses to contradict Emma's narrative. It's not just Joseph vs Brigham as he suggests.

[@likeuntoammon]

These people don’t have a good answer for Brian Hales because he documents fairly meticulously all of the evidence showing that Joseph Smith Jr. was indeed involved in polygamy.

[@kylegene7359]

I would love to believe Joseph was not a polygamist. What do you do with quotes from Lorenzo Snow and his sister Eliza R Snow? I have no problem getting rid of Bennett's quotes, but I do not know what to do with the lived experiences attributed to the Snow's.

[@rickyde0255]

Holy moly, very, very, very interesting. Proof that God lets men screw things up. Good thing we have the atonement.

[@angelamadsen416]

Help me understand what your definition of polygamy is. You yourself admit that there is evidence that Joseph Smith was sealed to more than one woman. And what is marriage if not the being sealed? Just because the marriages might not have been consummated doesn’t mean they didn’t happen. This whole video seems like a non-issue, other than whether or not Joseph slept with more than one woman. But it’s clear that he did practice polygamy, as he was sealed to more than one living woman at a time. And I do want to say, as this is my first time commenting on your videos, and it is a negative comment, that I really do love your videos. And I agree with most of what you say. I have saved several of your videos for future reference. so I didn’t want my first comment to rub you the wrong way but know that I am mostly in agreements what you have to say

[@kissinkatebarlow]

I think most of us think of polygamy as more than one wife married civilly. Being sealed to more than one woman doesn’t necessarily mean polygamy. My ex is sealed to me still and his wife but we would never be together for eternity. My ex isn’t currently practicing plural marriage. Sealings are just as much about covenants, blessings, and families being tied together through a kind of web, etc.

[@BB_Ull]

Are you sealed to your children? Does that mean they are married to you. Sealing and marriage is not the same thing although we tend to think of it today that way.

[@angelamadsen416]

@@BB_Ull of course we’re not married to our children because we are not sealed to them as spouses. There are different types of sealings as you know. And being sealed as husband and wife to more than one LIVING person at a time IS polygamy.

[@wufflerdance9481]

we know emma and joseph fought about this years before his death when the lord apparently told joseph about plural marraige...emma later told family and other about how hard it was years after his death too....she and eliza r snow never got along after she knew joseph and eliza got a sealing done

[@freethinker1026]

Can you provide sources for your claim that Emma told family how hard it was? Emma stated that the first time she heard of any polygamy revelation was when it was published in the SEER in 1853 Emma maintained until her death that she was Joseph's only wife. And Emma and Joseph's son who was 11 at the time his father died stated that his parents never fought or treated each other coldly. They never fought about it or struggled with it because Joseph never practiced it.

[@danascully7358]

It sounds like "We know" is more like "We've been taught".

[@carrieann5154]

He sealed men to himself as well, so do you know if there evidence that Joseph considered the sealings to women "celestial marriage?" Or did he consider it more like sealing a sister or daughter to himself?

[@likeuntoammon]

Yes. There were some according to Hales work that were eternity only marriages and not for mortality.

[@cab9191]

I would love to get a source on Joseph Kingsbury being the recorder of the revelation on the marriage ceremony between Joseph and Sarah Ann… The Joseph Smith papers project only notes the typewritten copy and does not speak to who originally acted as scribe. Obviously Kingsbury’s participation would be suspicious as he is the notorious scribe for what would become sect 132…

[@originalintent6916]

Thanks for posting this, Connor!

[@kevinrex4]

Connor (or someone else reading this), I saw or heard a reference to a research paper you'd written on this subject, but I can't find the link anywhere? Please, anyone, do you have the link? Thanks.

[@Itsmeshelbydee]

Kind of off topic but today has I was watching Escaping Polygamy ( season 3 ep 3 ) I just so happen to see you in the background of the hearing. I jumped off the couch and said “That’s Connor!” My 8 year Tuttle Twins reader runs over to take a look and yes Yes that’s Connor with smile on his face he thought that was the coolest! So of course I start to do more research and come to my surprise you are involved more than I thought. You have reached so many hearts and minds. Not only for my little guy with Tuttle Twins books and shows but me as well! Keep opening the minds of young people and helping them CTR! Btw my 8yr old is now reading How Not To Suck At Life and is often rolling his eyes at his teen age sister and trying to educate her. 😅

[@cboyack]

Haha that’s awesome 😎

[@marionsmith4457]

How come you never bring up that the Book of Mormon teaches against polygamy and makes it clear that it is wrong? Seems like that is an authoritative source that substantiates your premise and yet you don't use it.

[@michaelangeloevans2722]

where does the Book of Mormon teach that polygamy is wrong?

[@marionsmith4457]

@@michaelangeloevans2722 , I was referring to Jacob 2, but after reading it again, I see the verse about raising up seed. I don't remember that being there the last time I read it.

[@michaelangeloevans2722]

@@marionsmith4457 I'll check it out. Thank you.

[@jenniferwallace8161]

The raising up seed verse is a tricky one. Think of all the situations where God has put people in situations where they need to raise righteous generations...Adam and Eve, Noah, Lehi and Sariah...none of them were commanded polygamy. Even Abraham and Jacob weren't commanded to be polygamous, their situations led to it. So to me, the raising up of seed verse must mean something else.

[@michaelangeloevans2722]

@@jenniferwallace8161 How do you know that those people didn't?

[@thedailydump7407]

Great presentation and I largely agree from my research. I take a different perspective, though on what it would mean if Joseph was a polygamist after all. For me, it would mean he was a liar, a sexual predator, and a grand manipulator. It also likely means other things such as abortion being practiced in Nauvoo. For me, that would be too much to continue to believe he was a prophet and I would be gone from the church.

[@sdfotodude]

William Law was in the 1st Presidency. He published the Nauvoo Expositor. He wasn't condemning non-conjugal sealings. He condemned Whoredoms.

[@ashleysb3]

Where can the Relief Society's "A Voice of Innocence" article be found?

[@thegospelunscripted]

6:45 it is not a questions of "Joseph or Brigham" - there are literally _hundreds_ of other witnesses of Joseph's belief/teaching/practice of polygamy. Many of whom Brigham never had any influence over, or who before the end of their lives had major fallings out with Brigham and had every opportunity and motive to "expose" him if polygamy had come from him not Joseph. You might want to do some serious study about the following names in particular: Lyman Wight, Alpheus Cutler, James Strang, Amasa Lyman, George Watt, John D. Lee, and William Marks.

[@freethinker1026]

To imply that those men you listed are proof that Joseph practiced and was the author of polygamy is ludicrous. Alpheus Cutler started his own church, members deny that he or Joseph practiced polygamy, many of his followers including Cutler's son ended up joinging Joseph Smith III church James Strang - started his own church after Joseph's death. Had the misfortune of having John C. Bennett join his church and it was John C. Bennett who brought polygamy to his group. Amasa Lyman followed Brigham after Joseph's death. Denied the reality and need for the atonement. Was excommunicated. Had 8 wives. George Watt - Baptized by Heber C. Kimball. Brigham's secretary, editor of JOD. Had 6 wives John D. Lee- Brigham's adopted son, scapegoat and only one punished for MMM, Danite, had 19 wives. Last words ""I do not believe everything that is now being taught and practiced by Brigham Young. I do not care who hears it. It is my last word... I have been sacrificed in a cowardly, dastardly manner." Lyman Wight - after Joseph's death lead a group to Texas, rejected Brigham as prophet and successor, led his own group. Most of the accusations of polygamy come from one man last name Carter (if I remember right first name was Gideon) not credible and Lyman died in 1858 so couldn't counter accusations. Also majority of his followers, as with Cutlers, joined the RLDS church (no polygamy allowed) William Marks - You are joking, right? The men you listed who actually were polygamists have multiple reasons not to out Brigham. 1. they may have just believed the narrative that was pushed from the time Joseph died. 2. They may have feared Brigham and his death squad. 3. They would be known as liars had they changed their story. 4. They were polygamist and in order to protect that practice (with or without Brigham) and in turn their families they had to maintain that it originated with Joseph.

[@thegospelunscripted]

​@@freethinker1026 Alpheus Cutler _was a polygamist_ who later disavowed polygamy (after his plural wives all left him and his church in Oklahoma rejected it). But he DID LIVE IT, and he attributed it to Joseph. Never Brigham. Brigham was literally thousands of miles away, couldn't harm him or have any influence. If polygamy came from Brigham why did Alpheus miss his golden opportunity to expose him?? James Strang _was also a polygamist_ who later disavowed polygamy (after his plural wives all left him and his church in Michigan rejected it). But he DID LIVE IT, and he attributed it to Joseph. Never Brigham. Brigham was literally thousands of miles away, couldn't harm him or have any influence. If polygamy came from Brigham why did Strang miss his golden opportunity to expose him?? Amasa Lyman _was also a polygamist_ who was *kicked out of the quorum of Twelve and excommunicated from the church* by Brigham (for preaching false doctrine). After his excommunication most of his wives left him. He was quite bitter against Brigham and had years of opportunity and motive to expose him but didn't; after his excommunication Brigham had zero influence on Amasa, yet Amasa never denied Joseph taught him the principle. George Watt was also excommunicated by Brigham and had years of opportunity and motive to expose him but didn't; after his excommunication Brigham had zero influence on George, yet George never denied Joseph taught him the principle. John D. Lee was allowed to be the scapegoat by Brigham, and could have easily used his last words before being executed for mountain meadows massacre to condemn polygamy and expose Brigham - yet he didn't. Lyman Wight _was a polygamist_ who later disavowed polygamy (after his plural wives all left him and his church in Texas rejected it). But he DID LIVE IT, and he attributed it to Joseph. Never Brigham. Brigham was literally thousands of miles away, couldn't harm him or have any influence. If polygamy came from Brigham why did Lyman miss his golden opportunity to expose him?? Do you see the pattern?? Last but not least: William Marks _never accepted or lived polygamy_ yet _testified that Joseph taught it to him._ This is perhaps *THE most damning witness against the "polygamy denial" movement.* William Marks stated that Joseph taught/lived polygamy but then regretted it because it would destroy the church. William Marks became the president of the RLDS church yet never deviated from his position despite Emma's insistent denial of Joseph's polygamy.

[@freethinker1026]

@@thegospelunscripted Are you serious? You have no idea what you are talking about. This is what William Marks stated that Joseph said to him, "“Brother Marks, … we are a ruined people.” I asked, how so? He said: “This doctrine of polygamy, or Spiritual-wife system, that has been taught and practiced among us, will prove our destruction and overthrow. I have been deceived,” said he, “in reference to its practice; it is wrong; it is a curse to mankind, and we shall have to leave the United States soon, unless it can be put down and its practice stopped in the church. Now,’ said he,’ Brother Marks, you have not received this doctrine, and how glad I am. I want you to go into the high council and I will have charges preferred against all who practice this doctrine, and I want you to try them by the laws of the church, and cut them off, if they will not repent and cease the practice of this doctrine.” NOTICE how JOSEPH said "has been taught and practiced among us" not that he taught or practiced. It is a known fact that it had been practiced among the saints as we have record of Joseph excommunicating people as well as Joseph, Hyrum, Emma, the RS, Elders condemning it. And Joseph isn't going to cut off people who were just following his teachings and example. In 1846 Strang denounced Brigham Young and his apostles for teaching that “polygamy, fornication, and adultery are required by the command of God in the upbuilding of his kingdom.” He wouldn't say that if he belived Joseph not Brigham was the author of polygamy. In 1849 after John C. Bennett had been part of his group and a married Strang had fallen in love with a young woman, "He (Strang) told Elvira that the prophet had received from God, by means of an angel, the divine plan for the kingdom of God on earth. James Jesse Strang was to rule the kingdom as king and vice-regent of God. And the new society was to be polygamous: the king was to set the example for his subjects!" Strang practiced polygamy not because Joseph taught it but because he claimed he received his own revelation in order to justify taking another wife. I have given reasons why Lee, Watt, and Amasa wouldn't change their tune. Do you have credible sources to back up your claims regarding Cutler and Wight? Considering your lack of knowledge regarding Marks and Strang it would seem you are just making up your own facts.

[@thegospelunscripted]

@@freethinker1026 It is an undeniable historical fact that William Marks believed and made multiple public and private statements that Joseph was involved in the teaching and practice of polygamy. Why else would Joseph Smith III have refused to believe William Marks' testimony? Surely someone claiming to be as well read and intelligent as yourself is well acquainted with Joseph Smith III's rejection of William Marks' testimony. If Marks actually thought Joseph Smith Jr. didn't believe/practice polygamy, why did Joseph Smith III denounce his testimony? You are making the exact same mistake 99.99% of church members today make - conflating the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints with the (completely separate and distinct) Kingdom of God (aka Council of Fifty) and the (also completely separate and distinct) Church of the Firstborn (aka Quorum of Anointed). Joseph could have been completely sincere about excommunicating people from the Church of Christ, since plural marriage is a law of the Church of the Firstborn. Doctrinally/scripturally speaking, excommunication just means you can no longer be officially considered a member of the group by other humans; but if you lose priesthood it is because of personal wickedness, not the act of excommunication. It's possible that Strang's adoption of polygamy (despite his initial opposition) had nothing to do with Joseph's teaching/practice of it; though as he claimed to be the rightful successor to Joseph it is very reasonable to presume they're related but I've only read a couple books years ago on Strang (who I personally find historically interesting, but doctrinally/theologically very lacking). I read an Alpheus Cutler biography by Danny Jorgensen years ago; also an article (or excerpt from a book, I can't remember) written by a researcher named Drew Briney whose wife is a direct descendant of Alpheus Cutler. I've read articles/books on Lyman Wight by Melvin Johnson and Christopher Blythe, seems like I might have read about him in one of Michael Quinn's books too. I'm a student of Mormon history (not just LDS/Brighamites), and while I will always defer to the experts who have spent thousands of hours studying the source material if I'm misremembering a detail, the men I listed above had ample knowledge, opportunity, _and motive_ to expose Brigham if polygamy came exclusively from him and not Joseph. Yet the fact remains that they didn't. Stop acting like you know everything and anyone who disagrees with your narrative is ignorant. You don't know what you don't know, and I disagree with you based on the FACTS of history and rational argument.

[@freethinker1026]

@@thegospelunscripted I notice that you took William Smith off your list. Unless you can provide proof, you would need to take William Marks off as well. Where is your quote of Joseph III denouncing what William Marks said or of William Marks claiming Joseph, the prophet, taught him polygamy? There isn't one, all you have is Quinn making that assumption based on Marks quote that I gave and the fact that Joseph III didn't believe his father practiced polygamy. Unless you can give me a quote from Marks or Joseph III or other substantiating evidence, you have nothing. Danny Jorgensen taking LDS church records at face value, when we know for a fact that Brigham tampered with the history, doesn't equal evidence especially in light of the fact that the Cutlerites have always denied that Alpheus practiced polygamy and denied that Joseph taught it. Drew Briney is a polygamist. There is no definitive proof that Cutler practiced polygamy and if the Cutlerites did practice then you believe they just abandoned their families to join the RLDS church? Even if every man you listed practiced polygamy, them not attributing it to Brigham is not proof that polygamy came from Joseph, for the reasons I previously listed.

[@andreacook2416]

“Doctrines of Salvation” by Joseph Fielding Smith addresses the removed section on marriage, section 132, blood atonement, and adam-god theory. Brigham Young was often misquoted or half-quoted and then the wrong quotes were quoted as actual quotes. His sermons recorded in Journal of Discourses cannot be relied upon. It has been discovered they were intentionally changed/edited by the scribe who was using his own form of short-hand to record the teachings.

[@sunniharrison9639]

I guess the question is, can out leaders guide us astray? How do you justify biblical stories of polygamy like Abraham and Jacob? What do you think about the current temple interview questions that say, "Do you sustain the members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local leaders of the Church?" I personally have a hard time answering this question honestly.

[@cab9191]

The question is not - do you have a testimony of or believe that they are P,S,&Rs…. The question is do you sustain them. Sustain means to support or aid. Do you hope for these men? D&C 107:91-92 lays out the duty of the presidency of the church. Do you hope for and even pray that these men fulfill their callings and duties? If so, then yes, you sustain them, regardless of whether or not you believe they are actually fulfilling that duty… Contrast this with the first 3 questions in the TR interview which say “do you have a testimony of”…. I can honestly answer that I sustain and hope for them. However, I strongly fear that both they and the entire church fall well short of their calling. I certainly do not have a testimony that they are “like unto Moses” (D&C 107:91).

[@americathebeautiful9613]

@@cab9191 The answer is, YES YES YES, they can lead us astray. The only thing that wont lead us astray is the Holy Ghost. Brigham Young for years taught blood atonement, Adam=God, Blacks are cursed, polygamy is exhaltation. These alone are examples of being led astray, but we in the church are just too terrified to stand up and say, "is this really the will of the Lord?"

[@taxtrustsestates]

I can absolutely sustain the General Authorities and at the same time. not believe that JS practiced polygamy.

[@connectionstochrist700]

My understanding is this in response to your questions. Can our leaders guide us astray? Yes the possibility is there. Jesus is the only prefect example. We all make mistakes. Part of the beauty of Christ's atonement is that it gives us space and grace to learn. I don't beleive our leaders would intentionally lead us astray. I believe they are doing their best to point us to Jesus. Elder Holland said "Except in the case of His only perfect Begotten Son, imperfect people are all God has ever had to work with. That must be terribly frustrating to Him, but He deals with it." Lord I Believe April 2013 conference talk. Let's love and have grace for each other as Jesus teaches us to do. How do you justify biblical stories of polygamy like Abraham and Jacob? I see them as examples of God giving beauty for ashes when we turn to Him. Webster's 1828 dictionary defines JUSTIFY ... In theology, to pardon and clear from guilt; to absolve or acquit from guilt and merited punishment, and to accept as righteous on account of the merits of the Savior, or by the application of Christ's atonement to the offender. Abraham was Abram when he took council from his wife(Sarai) to use Hagar as a surrogate mother. They were doing the best they knew with their life experiences to get God's promise of posterity. The child when born would have been considered Sarai's as Hagar was her slave. They continued to learn and grow just like we have opportunity too. Jacob was tricked into marrying Leah. Then given the option to marry Rebekah as well. Women were seen as property at the time and used as such. Much heartbreak ensued with sisters competing to be the best wife=have children. Unfortunately polygamy was part of the culture at the time. People living too the best of their understanding. God did bring forth miracles and tender mercies from this mortal mess of heartache. God did not command polygamy for Jacob. God loves all of His children. Through Christ we are justified (see definition above). God is a God of abundance who can raise up sons of Abraham from stones. (I believe that Leah will have a husband who treasures her as his one and only wife. Each daughter and son of God will have this opportunity.) 1:1 husband & wife is God's law of marriage. He gives the pattern over and over so we can see and learn ...Adam & Eve, Noah & his wife (3 sons and their wives- one each- for a total of 8 souls on the arc), Lehi & Sariah... We all make mistakes and God loves us. God lives and loves us. He's willing to reach and guide us through any and every blunder. It's our choice to trust, believe and follow him. Do you sustain...prophet, apostles, local leaders? (Combining the two final questions.) To sustain is to support, be willing to assist in fulfilling the goal(s). Prophets and local leaders are called to assist us in coming to Christ. We help each other. Like in marriage, for a wife to sustain her husband or a husband to sustain his wife is to work together, to communicate and support one another. If something is off, needs adjustment it's okay and important to address it. If a recipe calls for a tsp (teaspoon) of salt and your spouse or child is about to use a Tbs (tablespoon) of salt you say something. It can save the recipe or maybe you get to start over again. It doesn't mean to silently and robotically do everything your told. Our God is a God of second chances. Let's learn to love as He does and have grace with each other as we make our blunders and learn through life. Jesus lives and loves us. He is the Christ our Savior, redeemer and brother, the perfect example of love and grace. He sustains us with daily breath knowing we will make mistakes and being willing to help us learn and grow through them. This life is a gift, an opportunity to build relationships. The two great commandments are about building relationships to Love God and love our neighbor as ourselves. Let's keep leaning together. I hope that makes sense. ❤

[@sjjsc92661]

Even the LDS church acknowledges he did. Look at the church essays

[@gretamoney8017]

What about section 132 of D&C? Is it not Joseph Smith sanctioning of polygamy? Now I am confused.

[@PanasheGoche]

It is not

[@Masteroogway40]

To say Joseph did not practice polygamy is a movement that is headed for apostasy.

[@josephaney]

Comment 1.I think everybody is missing the point with polygamy. The question that should be asked, "Is polygamy a sin in the kingdom of God?" In the kingdom of God, there is a time and place for everything. In the beginning of humanity, God gave one commandment and one commandment only, to be fruitful and to multiply. Until, Noah, that was the only commandment, "Be fruitful and multiply." Monogamy is addition. Polygamy is multiplying. Polygamy has always been around. The fact of the matter is that there are more female spirits than there are male spirits. All women come to earth with one sacred calling and that is to be mothers. If a woman accomplishes only that one thing in life faithfully, which is to be a mother, she has done her whole duty to God and will be blessed in Heaven. Neither Joseph not Brigham invented polygamy. It has always been there. It only became a sin when the Catholic church made it a sin. Well, excuse me, I am not Catholic, and I do not believe any doctrine that comes out of the Catholic Church. The Catholic church dogma is that sex is evil, marriage is God's permission to have sex, in marriage, monogamy is the rule and celibacy is a higher state then marriage. I do not believe any of that.

[@katherineshiver9428]

Interesting, so what about the sons and daughters going off in two’s and Adam and Eve, if it was more about multiplying then why not start it off right away? Cain and Lamech were the first to take multiple wives and they were the first to murder, so doesn’t it seem Satan has a certain plan vs. Heavenly Father’s plan? I don’t think polygamy has a place in the plan of happiness and men and women should be equal and cling to each other and are the unit of existence. Husband and wife with Christ at the head - a mini Godhead. I know this is from awhile back, just found this video. 😊

[@josephaney]

@@katherineshiver9428 Thank you for your comment. I have been thinking how to reply to you. I have had a lot of thoughts going through my mind, things I could say but I think I will like to start with Father in heaven's plan vs. the devil's plan. What is Father plan? The Lord told Moses that his work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. The beginning of his work is to bear children. Go back to when you were a single cell, intelligent, self aware light being and Father in Heaven said to you, "Do you want to live? or remain as you are?" You obviously said yes, because here you are. Father directed your attention to the countless souls, just like you, who also wanted to live, and he also told you that you could help him in bringing to pass his work and glory by being a mother and to bear many children. He may even have told you, that when you could not bear any more children that he would like for you to give you husband another wife so you could continue to bring more people into the world, so he would have more work to do and have more glory. I do not know how much you agreed to before you were born but I had a vision of having many women who agreed to be wives when we live in the pre existence. I answer questions for people about God, the scriptures, life in general, etc. I have been asked a couple of times by different women, what could they do to have God say to them, "Well done you good and faithful servant." I told them to be married and have many children. If a woman has children and rears them in the ways of God, she has done her whole duty to God, and he will say to her, "Well done you good and faithful servant. The devil's plan on the other hand is to destroy. His propaganda that I have been hearing my whole life is to limit families, have abortions and depopulation. Here is a question to think about. When the early saints were practicing polygamy, who was persecuting them? Angels or demons? I was six years old when I first heard about polygamy. My mother had been asking me how many children I was going to have. I said, "Oh, at least a hundred." My mother would laugh and say, "I pity your poor wife." I wondered what she meant by that. At six, what did I know about sex and what did a wife have to do with me having kids. Then my mother got pregnant with my brother and I saw how hard it was for her to have children and then I understood. Daddy got the credit for having kids, but mommy was doing all the work. Then I heard about my great grand father having two wives and 14 kids, and I had a solution. The next time my mother asked me how many kids I was going to have, I gave the same reply, "Oh at least a hundred." and she laughed and said, "I pity your poor wife." and then I said, "I have that all figured out to. I will have ten wives and ten kids a piece." Then mom really laughed and said, "They do not let us do that any more." I got a little riled with that idea. I wondered, "Who are they to tell me that I cannot have as many kids as I want." It did not seem right to me that any other man could limit the size of the family I wanted to have.

[@katherineshiver9428]

@@josephaney well by all means you are a man and should get what you want. It seems you place children above women. I am grateful for my beliefs and my husband who has the same beliefs. Good luck and I wish you well.

[@josephaney]

@@katherineshiver9428 Thank you for your comment. I would like to make something straight here. I do not place children above women. I place God above all things. After I was born again, the Lord taught me that if I wanted more of the love of God in my life, I was to love him with all my heart. He told me that the more I love him the more I will be able to love myself and my wife and my children. He taught me to make a love list. It goes like this: I love God. I love and forgive myself. I love and forgive my wife. I love and forgive my parents. I love and forgive my children. I love and forgive my brothers and sisters. I love and forgive my friends and extended family. I love and forgive my enemies. I love and forgive people who I have not met. The Lord told me a true story of a man, who in the beginning loved God. When he was mature enough, he took a wife, and he loved his wife, but then he began to love his wife more than he loved God. After a time, the Lord caused the man and woman to separate for a time. When that happened, the man repented and his attention was turned back to the Lord and his love of God was restored. Returning to his wife, he tried to teach his wife about loving God more than she loved her husband and herself. She never got it and she became jealous that her husband loved God more than loving her. Her jealousy turned to anger and in the end, she forced her husband to decide, either her or God. The man chose God and she separated herself from God, dumped her husband and shacked up with a lover. The moral of the story is that loving God above all things is the only way, for both men and women to have eternal life and happiness and jealousy and anger are the leading causes of destroyed marriages.

[@katherineshiver9428]

@@josephaney wonderful! I am glad you will be happy with God’s plan then! We get an eternity and so there is no need for multiple wives. If you were meant to have 10 wives to have 10 kids each here on earth and it was God’s plan then you would have been able to, but it is not His plan. Unless you are some rogue polygamist and haven’t mentioned that. Whatever the case hope you have a happy sabbath! I don’t think there is anything more to discuss but thanks for being more clear, that whole childhood idea was crazy sounding, like you have no idea what love and relationships are about, so glad you love God first because then you/we can learn the rest of everything. 🙂

[@gretamoney8017]

Soo if Joseph was not practicing polygamy how did polygamy become a common practice in Mormonism? Who sanctioned Polygamy? Was the person who sanctioned polygamy a false prophet?

[@sdb816]

Have you looked into Brian Hales’ work on this?

[@cboyack]

Yes. It’s flawed. He relies on claims by Joseph’s enemies and apostates and women decades later making claims without any contemporary evidence.

[@dr33776]

@@cboyackhave you considered the logistics and all the conspiracy that needs to have taken place to forge documents (many which are still hidden), coerce witnesses etc. both pro and anti Joseph Smith, contemporary or later all across the country to blame Joseph? Do I need to add that NOT ONE of the witnesses recanted? We are expected to believe the words of 11 witnesses because they never recanted even after leaving the church but somehow you believe the public denials of 3 people of questionable character over dozens of people. Another question, why did Oliver Cowdery join the Brighamites and not Emma if Joseph never taught or practiced polygamy?

[@roughstonerolling]

@cboyak it looks like someone has been listening to Denver Snuffer😂

[@sherryhyde565]

For the record, I believe Joseph and sweet Emma. God bless them both🌿

[@dr33776]

Both liars

[@wufflerdance9481]

if joseph didnt have any plural wives........suvh as eliza r snow who later married brigham too as a widow to be cared for ....then too many things have been lied about...i nevwr had a problem with pural marraige in the past...but if the church has really lied for years on this.. i dunno how to trust a lot of non scripture stuff anymore

[@thuggie1]

I am sort of in agreement with you with the evidence put forward

[@thegospelunscripted]

8:30 "spiritual wifery" ≠ celestial plural marriage. Joseph's adamant protestations against the charges of adultery and "spiritual wifery" are completely justified.

[@thewellnessdadvocate3475]

He would have been in complete contradiction to the law of marriage in the original section 101 and purposely obfuscating the truth. Adultery = abomination = polygamy = spiritual wifely. He denied allegations of having more than one wife in May 1844.

[@thegospelunscripted]

@@thewellnessdadvocate3475 Hence why Joseph was forced (by the blindness and stiffneckedness of the people) to keep it so tightly private. He often lamented that "even the saints are slow to understand" etc. The "law of marriage" is not a revelation. It was simply something the church voted on, which is just fine since it was intended to be governed "by common consent." It's very similar to how the church voted to call itself "the church of the Latter-day Saints" in 1834, which was not commanded by God but was in fact _corrected_ by revelation in 1838 when Christ clarified that He wanted the name of the church to be "the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." Making a public denial of something that "the public" has no right to know is not lying; it is preserving the sanctity of privacy. Or would you also accuse Corrie Ten Boom of being a liar? Adultery = abomination = spiritual wifery *≠ celestial plural marriage*

[@freethinker1026]

@@thegospelunscripted You cannot redifine what a liar is just to suit your narrative. Even though a former president made a public denial of something the public didn't have a right to know, he was still charged with perjury because a lie is still a lie whether the public has a right to know or not. And Joseph had already proven that he didn't deny things or lie to avoid persecution or public backlash.

[@thegospelunscripted]

Hopefully you've never thrown a surprise birthday party for anyone in your family either, since you know, that would also make you either a liar or a hypocrite yourself.

[@thegospelunscripted]

@@freethinker1026 Hopefully you've never told your children that they got a present from Santa either, or that a baby came from a stork, or anything else like that either. Cuz you know where liars go; you are a total expert at discerning what is and is not a lie and condemning all of them.

[@boysrus61]

Fanny Alger was 14 not 16. Why was Emma the 21st wife sealed to Joseph? Someone is definitely not telling the truth. Either it is Joseph, Brigham Young, or the current church today. The church has on their website that Joseph was married to at least 30 women (or is it 34). If that isn't true why is the church sticking with that story. Do they support Joseph Smith or Brigham Young?

[@bonjovi9285]

It seems like if the church supports JS not practicing then BY would have continued the church based upon lies. If they support JS practicing polygamy then they have a lot of things they need to answer to especially why he was married to girls or at least a girl as young as 14. This is why I believe the first presidency and the quorum of the 12 should have one of them go on a podcast weekly and help resolve any concerns (rotate one every week then they would only have to appear 3 times a year each). Like a Joe Rogan type thing, just sit and talk for like an hour. And it doesn't have to be about just church topics it could be anything, even aliens like JR likes to talk about...

[@freethinker1026]

Fanny was born in Sept 1816 The earliest record of her being at the Smiths home was 1833 so the youngest she would have been is 17. If Joseph had married her at 17 that still would have been bad. Thankfully evidence proves that there is no credibility to the claim that she was married to Joseph. I believe the church is sticking to the story for one of two reasons, either they are relying on what historians have reported in the past and believe Joseph was a polygamist or they are afraid people will question the line of succession/authority if Brigham and his fellow polygamists lied.

[@wufflerdance9481]

​@@freethinker102617 wouldnt have been bad..in fact 16 wouldnt have been bad. you wetent considered kids then. Remembwr the laura ingalls books and many more such people of the time dated ans got married at 15-17 regularly... to be 20 or more single as a lady would be less likely...over 24 people would assume you must be a spinster forevwr

[@freethinker1026]

@@wufflerdance9481 Whether is would have been "bad" or not the point is it didn't happen and there isn't a shred of credible evidence to support that it did.

[@kissinkatebarlow]

@@freethinker1026 oh goodness. Marrying at 17 is not bad. I know a woman whose grandmother, in the 1900s, married at 13 to a man in his twenties.

[@benjaminclark2307]

There are some logical fallacies in your argument here namely the either or argumentation which historians who strive for objectivity want to avoid. It would be interesting to see you in a debate with some scholars on the subject.

[@erikpeoples8041]

The Brighamites were not the majority of the Saints after Joseph's death. The majority of the church did not follow Brigham. The Brighamites were the largest group after the Martyrdom, but the total of all the other groups was the majority of the members. In other words, the majority of the church at the time of Joseph's death did not believe or did not want to follow Brigham Young.

[@Fred-mp1vf]

It's amazing how many people are willing to believe only what they want to believe, without unbiased study or prayerfully seeking to know the truth. Only the pure in heart are able to receive the things of God.

[@erikpeoples8041]

@@Fred-mp1vf only the pure in heart will accept truths, the information is made available to all. Unlike the LDS church God does not work in secret.

[@DerekPayne1791]

Question: Is it possible Brigham took the title Master Mahan?

[@josephaney]

Comment 6. In the kingdom of God, God's judgement is based on the contracts one has with God. The level of contracts one has also has everything to do with where one ends up in eternity. A person who has no contracts with God, the best he can hope for in Judgment is the telestial kingdom. If one enters into a contract to live the ten commandments and fulfills the contract, he has hope in receiving the terrestrial kingdom. If one is enters into the new contract Jesus gave and fulfills the contract, he has hope of obtaining the Celestial kingdom, but without marriage in the new and everlasting covenant of marriage he will not have his family with him except as friends.

[@sdfotodude]

The church says he was. Are they Liars? That is a rhetorical question.

[@bmo5082]

Yes. The church leadership believes it’s ok to lie to its members or the rest of the world.

[@BB_Ull]

“Why are you using my name to carry on your hellish wickedness? Have I ever taught you that fornication and adultery was right, or polygamy or any such practices? Times and Seasons 3 [August 1, 1842]

[@dr33776]

So it must be true because he said so?

[@josephaney]

Comment 7. What is adultery? In the kingdom of God, adultery for the man is to steal another man's wife. Adultery for a woman who has been joined to a man in the new and everlasting covenant is to give herself to some other man for sex. Divorce from a marriage in the new and everlasting covenant is also adultery. The one who does the divorce is the adulterer. Divorce is not just divorcing from your partner, it is divorcing yourself from God, breaking the new and everlasting covenant. Sex without marriage is not a sin unless the person has a contract with God to abstain from sex until marriage, then it is called fornication. The law of Chastity, which pertains to priesthood should be that one agrees to abstain from sex until marriage and in marriage to practice monogamy until sanctification. Once a person is sanctified, he has fulfilled his covenant and if the Lord calls him him to a higher covenant, then he may be allowed to practice polygamy.

[@scottthormaehlen7898]

I’m going to give this a watch. I am lost on this topic the more I learn. But just for starters, you should have a problem with anyone practicing something incorrect from a religious perspective, not government, just as you muse about other must dos. Like exposing secret combinations, doing God’s will, etc. From a religious standpoint, if the Bible gives authority over marriage to prophets, like Nathan who “gave” David his wives,” then all the offshoots of the church should be held to the same standard. Meaning, just as we would seek to show Catholics how the Restoration is true, you should let your neighbor know was well. I’ve met a couple of people who left the big polygamy community in West Valley, and it’s downright cringy. Raising children to believe in this and all the pressure when it’s not being followed biblically is horrible. Just my two cents. But I’m interested to compare your content with Brian Hales’ work at some point. One other point. Given there was a succession crisis, didn’t Joseph say THIS gospel would sweep the earth? What other branch or succession can make claims to that prophecy. Maybe you’ll get to that? I’ll keep watching 😆

[@sdfotodude]

He was hiding as best as he could

[@shootergavin3541]

We all look at evidence differently. This is why hung juries exist. Everybody sees the same evidence but comes to different conclusions. I have seen enough evidence to conclude that Joseph Smith was a polygamist. I have zero problem with it. One of my ancestors was one of his wives. I have no shame of it. Proud to be part of the extended family of Joseph. People today look at polygamy as negative thing because they are looking at it from a westernized point of view. The bible presents a very different point of view than what modern people do. I believe that it was practiced in the Book of Mormon among the Jaredites including the brother of Jared. Why would he not? He grew up in a place and time where it was not viewed as it is today. What is do find so crazy is so many people think that polygamy was bad and never approved by God but they are willing to believe that gay marriage is ok and God might be for it. Black is white and white is black. I sometimes do think I am in the Twilight Zone. If you are person who believes polygamy is bad, Joseph Smith did not practice it, ect. Fine. Its not even in the top 25 of issues I concern myself about and it is not something we practice today so its not something I feel the need to fight about.

[@lanettemasters8947]

I would not come to the same conclusion as this video for the following reasons: 1) I have read the history of Brigham Young, John Taylor and Wilfred Woodruff and it is a hard stretch to believe that they, along with the other apostles, conspired to lie about polygamy being “from the Lord”, 2) You forgot to mention that Brigham Young was president of the Quorum of the 12 and there is history which indicates that the president of the quorum of the 12 would become the next leader and 3) You forgot to mention the Manifesto which has absolutely no condemnation of the saints practicing polygamy but the Lord “showing by vision what would happen if they did not stop it”…unless your conclusion also is that Wilfred Woodruff made that up and lied about that as well. The accusations don’t meet the profiles of these men. I would prefer to believe that there is information that we do not have that helped influence these decisions and that seems more believable to me that these men, who sacrificed everything for the Lord and his programs turned to collusion and lying once Joseph died.

[@josephaney]

Comment 9. So what is the Church's role in all this? Understand this, the church is not the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God is above the churches and is non denominational. Churches are schools. The purpose of the schools is to teach the covenants and administer the ordinances. Any church is acceptable to God that is teaching the covenants and commandments of God. A church is only a true church when the leaders of the church and the members are keeping the covenants and commandments of God. Since the LDS church is the only church that has the knowledge and power to administer the new and everlasting covenant of marriage, the role of leadership is to teach the covenant and administer the ordinance. Until one is sanctified, it is their role to determine if one is keeping his covenants. It is not the role of the church to forbid marriage or punish people who do not have covenants. It is not for the Leaders of the church to make rules different than the rules contained in the covenants.

[@josephaney]

Comment 5. Marriage in the kingdom of God serves two purposes, 1. to form a family of God and 2. to sanctify women. Nobody is going to hell for having responsible sexual relationships with or without marriage. One does not have to be married to have sex, but let's say a couple does want to have an eternal family. Let's say that a man wants his wife or wives to be with him forever, then there are rules that he has to follow. The rules are called the commandments and saying of Jesus. Besides the rules, one must have a personal relationship with Jesus. One must be justified and sanctified. When the man takes a wife, they must enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage administered by one who has the authority and then go on to fulfill the covenant.

[@josephaney]

Comment 3. As humans, we have the unique ability to override instinct to do better than the animals or to do worse than the animals. Doing worse that the animals involves sins against nature, sins against humanity and sins against God's commandments. The three sins against nature, are Homosexuality, pedophilia and bestiality, contraception and abortion. The sins against humanity are forcing sex, selling sex and irresponsible sexual behavior. These sins are also against God and people who do not repent of those things will end up in hell. Doing better than the animals is that we do not have to give into lustful desire. We can choose our mates based on other rational than instinct. We can choose to be responsible. We can choose to be monogamous. We can choose to marry by man's rules or we can choose to marry according to God's rules. We can choose to have children. We get to choose and nobody has the right to make those choices for us.

[@josephaney]

Comment 2. The truth is that sex is not evil and God gave his permission to have sex when he gave the commandment to be fruitful and to multiply. Yes, there is a time for abstinence. Yes, There is a time for monogamy and yes, there is a time for polygamy. Marriage serves a higher purpose than "lawfully" having sex. Let's start at the beginning. As humans, we have three natures, animal, human and divine. The animal nature is instinct. The human nature is reason. The divine nature is relationship with God. The human instinct in the male is to pass on his genes to as many females as possible. The human instinct in females is to mate with the capable male to protect her and her offspring and provide for them. There are many examples of human communities that live by their instincts and are very successful in keeping God's mandate to be fruitful and multiply and will be saved in heaven, even though marriage is not an essential part of sexual activity.

[@burlingtonbill1]

Where's the picture?

[@AmericanFire33]

I think we need to start here. You’re lying if say polygamy in the pioneer era didn’t benefit the church. Every person who did it, was strongly encouraged to pray about it and get the spirit of it. Most people declined or couldn’t and it was fine. The Book of Mormon mentions polygamy and teaches that the Lord can authorize it to raise up seed unto him. Under Brigham Young the church certainly did just that. I could be convinced that Brigham Young in his zeal to defend Joseph Smith and live the religion started defending lies about the doctrine. I am old enough to remember life without cell phones and the internet. communication was bad. it was hard to run down the lies. Let’s face it JS was sealing people in family relationships. We have a word for family, it means something, It’s not just any random group who performed a ceremony. Furthermore, you fail to make a distinction. Spiritual Wifery was done in the dark and hidden from church leaders. Polygamy was done in the light accountable. You got permission from the leaders appointed over you to marry a second wife and they held you accountable for your actions. thats a big difference. I know libertarians think ant form of accountability is tyranny but its not. In fact it’s good for you to have leadership that you can’t control.

[@Pay-It_Forward]

Nope Joe wasn't a polygamist. The Brighamites went astray into apostasy. The Community of Christ is the true church.

[@steel6322]

Brighamite here lol. How did the Community of Christ get their priesthood authority? I don’t know anything about the CoC.

[@franciegwin]

This all explains why Emma never moved to Utah. They didn't want her there and they made it so miserable for her that she stayed behind. She probably wouldn't have stayed quiet and let all this horrible polygamy stuff take place!!! If she didn't stay quiet and summit they may have forced her to marry some horrible polygamist man or just end up by her self to die in the desert. I'm sorry but these sound like very sick caniving(sorry I can't spell) men!!!

[@ScottCampanaro]

Honestly, to all who have 'replied' to me (whinging more like) learn Rhetoric, Logic and abandon Sophistry. Also, quit arguing from your prejudices. Learn.

[@HemlockKnots]

Show me ONE contemporary first hand account from Joseph smith supporting polygamy. Just one. Then we’ll abandon this “sophistry”

[@ScottCampanaro]

​@@HemlockKnots READ. THE. JoD & HoC! Please. There is not one but hundreds of people contemporaneously showing their apostasy to The Principle and castigating Brother Joseph as there are hundreds of Thousands today. I think one of the issues seems to be that y'all are starting from the premise that Polygamy is a) Adultery, b) immoral, and/or c) was legal at the time. NOTE: a-c are all wrong... Polygamy is exactly what I said below: it is prophesied by Isaiah and it is the burden the priesthood must carry to provide the pathway for women to confront and abandon their Jealousy and Rebelliousness.

[@ScottCampanaro]

Yes, he was. The OMAS will fix this right off the bat. Isaiah's prophecy will come to pass. D&C 132 is true or it none of it is. Either Brother Joseph was the Prophet of the Restoration or he was not... Choose where you will stand. As for me and mine we will follow the Prophet of the Restoration and ALL of the D&C -- regardless of what the Mincing Mandarins of Mormonism decide to retcon -- Thanks be to God for being a Convert and actually having a testimony of the truth rather than a 'testimony' of the traditions worshiped by the Ecumenical Eunuchs that pass for the Priesthood in these fallen times. Y'all should have been born as the Gentiles that you aspire to be. Remember what Pres. W. Woodruff said after the Manifesto -- that nothing had changed other than the Church would not practice this ordinance and the curse for not following this mandate would fall upon those who had the bayonets in our backs. [circa 1894] (builds upon the curse for killing a Prophet and a Patriarch... before the woke started changing the Temple Ceremony) PS -- early brethren misled about a lot of things -- to avoid persecution and death -- things were written in code, etc. This is not 'lying' but a stratagem. PPS -- Practicing Celestial Marriage is NOT 'shenanigans' but rather the order of Heaven. It is also NOT Adultery... WTAH. PPPS -- you are arguing from your carnality and prejudices. NOTE: Plural Marriage is NOT about sex... typical mormon perversion fixation... it is about FAMILIES and the ONLY way to help women to become celestial by overcoming their greedy, rebellious, and prideful natures... It is a BURDEN to the Preisthoodholder NOT a blessing. I have been in the Church for almost 30 year and celibate since my wifes death... and I have never seen people more fixated on sex and perversion. www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/132?lang=eng

[@ScottCampanaro]

​@@brightdaysahead382 Once again -- I thank my Heavenly Father that I am an Adult (actual) Convert to the Restored Gospel (you know like: Br. Joseph, Oliver, Hyrum Smith, Peter Whitmer, Jr., Samuel H. Smith, David Whitmer, Peter, James, John, Andrew; Philip, Judas Iscariot, Matthew, Thomas, James, the son of Alpheus, Bartholomew, Judas Thaddeus, Simon Zelotes, Thomas Baldwin Marsh, David Wyman Patten, Brigham Young, Orson Hyde , William E. McLellin, Parley Parker Pratt, Luke S. Johnson, William Smith, & Porter Rockwell). I do not have to parse the Gospel to meet my lust to be accepted into gentile society. However, in the hope that you are actually inquiring honestly, I will restate my statement to wit: Either Joseph was a prophet and he spoke for The Lord or he was not a prophet... there is no in-between. From that basis you can drive down into D&C 132 is either a revelation or it is not... If Brother Joseph was a prophet then it is a revelation -- all of it -- not just the parts that do not offend the gentile mob or the ret-con doctrinaires. You should probably read the JD and the HC (all of them -- this was pivotal to my understanding when I joined the Church at 32yo) and "Lectures on Faith" (to the shame of the Corporation of the Church for removing that from the Pearl of Great Price) -- this is the CONTEXT that these revelations need to be understood. You can NEVER go wrong believing Brother Joseph.

[@tfredrickson360]

@@ScottCampanaro If you believe Brother Joseph, then you'd have to believe he wasn't a polygamist. He denied up to his death. Also, you seem to conflate the restored gospel with the church. Look up Ronald Poelman's October 1984 general conference talk. The real one, not the fake one the church has on it's website.

[@ScottCampanaro]

@@tfredrickson360 Read what I wrote and give up your wish to be able to pass as gentile. Your 'question' was answered in what you did not read or, perhaps, did not understand. The Truth has been declared -- take it up with The Lord... it is His ordinance not mine. PS -- If Plural Marriage is not of God, then why is it still practiced by the Church (if only in series, not in parallel)?

[@theQiwiMan]

I sincerely hope you get the help you clearly need.

[@theQiwiMan]

@@brightdaysahead382 Hi Lisa, sorry KZbin doesn't make it easy to keep track with who you're responding to, my comment was meant for the guy who seems to have several severe personality disorders. You have much more patience than I, engaging in debate with this man.

[@thegospelunscripted]

5:00 Connor, regarding the notion that Joseph publicly denying his involvement in polygamy in the Nauvoo period makes him a "liar" is absurd. A lie requires 2 key components: first, the intentional withholding of information or giving false information; and second, the other person must have a _right to that information_. Abram concealed the fact that Sarai was his wife from Pharaoh; which by your standard would make him a "liar." By that same logic/standard, Corrie Ten Boom "lied" to the Nazi's when she told them she wasn't hiding Jews in her home. To me, this should completely refute your premise about Joseph being a "liar" - because the _truth_ about his most personal and sacred life was not the business of the general assembly of the church, let alone the public/Gentiles.

[@thewellnessdadvocate3475]

We believe in being subject to kings priests magistrates, etc.... in honoring and obeying and sustaining the law. Joseph wrote that in the articles of faith. Bigamy was against the law in Illinois. Teaching polygamy privately while denying it publicly is called lying.

[@thegospelunscripted]

@@thewellnessdadvocate3475 You do not understand what you do not understand. The "law of the land" ≠ the laws of men. The law of the land = the Constitution (see D&C 98:4-7). You failed to address my point about how a _lie requires 2 key components._ Therefore teaching polygamy privately while denying it publicly is not necessarily a lie.

[@tamsynspackman7090]

If it looks like a duck, acts like a duck, and smells like a duck, it's probably a duck.

[@JakobPGrau]

Well, if he was a polygamist, then he gave a whole lot of false information. Joseph was massively and continuously on the record as not only not being a polygamist himself, but also being very publicly and vehemently against it. Read "Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy".

[@thegospelunscripted]

@@JakobPGrau I read and debunked "Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy" (Richard and Pamela Price's RLDS fundamentalist propaganda) 15 years ago. Such claims are absurdly overblown, and the few public statements Joseph did make are completely understandable given the fact that the principle literally _is_ what got the mobs so riled up they killed him over it.

[@sdfotodude]

Awesome mental gymnastics but only a 4.9 because you fell off the apparatus

[@bonjovi9285]

I've commented on these videos before but it would be nice if there were some references provided for some of the things that Connor is claiming. My brother and I were arguing the point about polygamy and I found it hard to argue some of Connor's points cause I couldn't find the evidence to support it. According to major news sources in which I don't trust (BBC (1), NPR (2), etc.), the church has admitted to JS having as many as 40 wives. It's all very confusing. According to the churches own website JS practiced polygamy (3). I also find it confusing cause if you are LDS and you do believe what Connor says about JS not practicing polygamy, then you have to believe that the prophet that followed him either received a revelation to practice it or BY went ahead and did his own thing and continued to build the church through a lie. If you do believe that JS received revelation and practiced it then according to the church records he had a 14 year old wife. I don't know about you but if a 30 yr old was called to the first presidency and called me and told me he is supposed to marry my 14 yr old daughter, I'd consider him a child molester and pervert and wouldn't be a part of that church any more. Many LDS followers make the claim that people got married young in those days but a quick google search will tell you otherwise (average age was around 19-22 or so). Yes some people got married younger in those days and it may have been more accepting then it is today but does that make it ok? (1) www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-30009324 (2) www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2014/11/11/363324816/mormon-church-admits-founder-joseph-smith-had-up-to-40-wives#:~:text=Mormon%20Church%20Admits%20Founder%20Joseph,%3A%20The%20Two%2DWay%20%3A%20NPR&text=Press-,Mormon%20Church%20Admits%20Founder%20Joseph%20Smith%20Had%20Up%20To%2040,was%20part%20of%20its%20history. (3) abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/joseph-smith-and-plural-marriage?lang=eng&adobe_mc_ref=www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/joseph-smith-and-plural-marriage?lang=eng&adobe_mc_sdid=SDID=77344D23CD3A4257-41A470EFBDA82A00|MCORGID=66C5485451E56AAE0A490D45%40AdobeOrg|TS=1662843385

[@freethinker1026]

@1:02:30 Connor addresses the fact that Brigham did his own thing. If you want to argue either side you should be doing your own research to do so, the evidence is there.

[@danascully7358]

Ya, I think he's gone back through primary sources not the biased, lying media.

[@loud_laughter]

This all sounds like a week’s worth of gossip the Singles Ward

[@likeuntoammon]

Connor, you are on the path to apostasy with this topic. Stay close to the brethren. Read Hales work if you need some answers, but stay close to the prophets.

[@PanasheGoche]

Why the fear talk? He's seeking after truth. Why not just follow the evidence where it leads?

[@likeuntoammon]

Because with this line of thinking you then call Brigham Young and several profits after him horrific liars. In fact, you could say the same about President Nelson with his multiple spouse situation. The people who are promoting this theory, definitely fall into the apostate category. I wouldn’t want Connor to go down that path. You have to ignore a lot of evidence to accept this line of thinking. That is why I suggested reading Hales’ work on the topic.

[@likeuntoammon]

@@PanasheGoche some thing I heard today is that Satan will do everything in his power to separate you from priesthood keys. This line of thinking does exactly that.

[@americanmanstan2381]

The Lord would have us reason together (without contention, of course), to come to the truth. What Connor says makes sense to me. Not you? All I care about is the truth and coming closer to the Lord. Truth will do that. He IS Truth, The Way. If I feel anxious about what he's saying, I'll dig deeper on both sides. Joseph said, "The grand fundamental principle of Mormonism is to receive truth, let it come from where it may." The brethren will only give you one side. Perhaps all is not what we've been spoon-fed all these years. If apostasy leads me closer to Jesus, so be it. I certainly didn't "stay close to the brethren" when it came to the shot, and most certainly not on the global citizen talk or U.N. agenda. That's when I realized maybe they're the 'arm of the flesh' Nephi talks about. Do you agree with the brethren on everything?

[@likeuntoammon]

@@americanmanstan2381 What authority does Connor have? He’s a good guy and has done a lot of good in his work. But he has no priesthood keys. I once heard an institute instructor say that the devil will do everything he can to get us to separate from priesthood keys. The keys are with the President of the Church and the apostles. Our conversion is to Christ, and not to the Church, this is true. But the leaders we have been given by the Lord are the ones that the Lord is telling us to follow when He says that whoever receives them, receives the Lord Himself. This whole polygamy denial business is a subtle strategy of the devil. It is intended to take our loyalty away from the ones anointed by the Lord and given the keys of the Kingdom in our day.

[@jaredshipp9207]

Wow. This is incredibly disappointing. I'd expect this revisionist history from Michelle Stone but not here. My opinion of Boyack just plummeted.

[@BTGordon]

Agreed.

[@freethinker1026]

Truth is truth regardless of the source.

[@gretamoney8017]

We all have blind spots - including Connor who I deeply respect.

[@danascully7358]

You do realize he is going with historical documents, right? Its not like he's just making things up. He's gone back to primary sources for the information.

[@BTGordon]

@@danascully7358 the Holy Ghost is the only primary source that matters.

[@rickgrimes931]

Pretty disappointed to see this denial of the facts and history. You normally do better than this, Connor.