Was Thistleclaw a Good Cat Before Spottedleaf's Heart?

[@tjtheentertainer9376]

Spottedleaf’s Heart would’ve been better if some adult cat stopped Thistleclaw from flirting with a child! Here’s who it could’ve been: -Bluestar (after Spottedleaf saved Stormtail, Bluestar’s father) -Featherwhisker (under the guise he wants her as his apprentice) -Thrushpelt (her warrior mentor) -Sunstar (since he’s always nervous about Thistleclaw’s actions)

[@LocalLazyStove]

Also her own mother Swiftbreeze or her father Adderfang, LIKE TOU TWO THERES A GROWN ADULT FLIRTING WITH YOUR UNDERAGE DAUGHTER ARENT YOU GONNA DO ANYTHING!?

[@tjtheentertainer9376]

@@LocalLazyStove I know, it’s disgusting 🤢

[@paradox-they-them9039]

Spottedpaw(leaf) wasn't a child, she was an apprentice at 6 months, the age cats become sexually active.

[@mysryuza]

Bluestar was the perfect cat to have since she doesn’t like Thistleclaw and saw him as sus already but she was written like some npc

[@mysryuza]

@@paradox-they-them9039 Apprentices are considered teenagers. The mentality of apprentices reflect more closely to teens than adults. The book made implications clear with the “But you’re a warrior and I’m an apprentice” and “you won’t be an apprentice forever.” “Sexually active at 6 months” yeah and guess how old people are sexually matured or something among that. Yes people and cats are different but the characters are written like humans relationship wise and intelligence. Sexually mature or not, let’s not forget that Thistleclaw was already onto Spotted as a kit. Most cats don’t even become mates with someone until they’re warriors, even if they’re close in age. If that doesn’t imply teenager in a story about cats that act like humans, idk what is.

[@mysryuza]

For people that throw in the “6 months sexually mature” excuse, lemme say something that I’ve said before in semi-copy-paste fashion “Apprentices are considered teenagers. The mentality of apprentices reflect more closely to teens than adults. The book made implications clear with the “But you’re a warrior and I’m an apprentice” and “you won’t be an apprentice forever.” Somehow people forget that predators like to use the “you won’t be a teen/kid forever” thing and how they wait until the target becomes old enough for them to bang. “Sexually active at 6 months” yeah and guess how old people are sexually matured or something among that. Yes people and cats are different but the characters are written like humans relationship wise and intelligence. Sexually mature or not, let’s not forget that Thistleclaw was already onto Spotted as a kit. Most cats don’t even become mates with someone until they’re warriors, even if they’re close in age. If that doesn’t imply teenager in a story about cats that act like humans, idk what is.” Yes cats are technically sexually mature at 6 months, but the books disregard that real life fact and the apprentices are written like teenagers intentionally. The nursery are for kits, children-children. And apprentices are considered young and naive in warriors’ eyes and apprenticeship at a young age is kinda like going into school (middle and high school), and new warriors are treated like graduates, which typically is when someone is around 18 or so. Apparently, people who use the “they’re cats and they are sexually mature at 6 months” like to disregard the parallels that the writers intentionally wrote into the series for the sake of “technicalities” of reality when this isn’t even about real life cats. Real cats don’t have religions and super powers. I feel like the people who use the real life cats excuse are the same people who may or may not pull their hair out over genetics.

[@5rcane]

Also real cats are sexually mature at 6 moons, however often don't have the maturity to deal with kittens and even with help things can quickly roll downhill. Kitten Lady's video "This young mama was still a kitten when she gave birth. Ugh. Now I'm raising both kittens!" covers it well, though the cat is four moons old.

[@lalas181]

Technically AFAB humans can generally (barring stuff like infertility ect) bear children when they're 13 years old. Still doesn't make someone who has a kid around their age and a dead wife hitting on them any less Super Not Okay! Sexual maturity only really matters for healthcare reasons, and I doubt Working Partners is keen on having kitty's first period as a plot-point when they won't so much as let two boy cats be officially textually husbands.

[@PommieTheYoomie]

Feathertail X crowpaw?

[@zrainyday5266]

@@PommieTheYoomie yea and dustpelt x fernpaw. The Erin's r terrible with this stuff

[@_The_Lizard_King]

@@PommieTheYoomie The age gap between Crowf and Feathertail wasn't a problem at all tho. It was like an 18 year old dating a 19 or 20 year old..

[@mothwingthemedicinecat]

Some people make the argument that Bluestar’s prophecy is biased because its in Bluestar’s POV.. would you say Firestar was biased against Tigerstar was because it was in Fireheart’s POV? And I don’t think you need to be Bluestar to know encouraging your apprentice to attack a kit is bad. And like you said, he tried keeping bluestar away from whitestorm as well. It wasn’t just spottedleaf’s heart he was bad in

[@Idkidc2173]

I wouldn't say Firestar was biased against Tigerclaw, because it's Firestar's pov, but I definitely would say Firestar was biased against Longtail (and maybe Dustpelt), because it's Firestar's pov.

[@whoopihyena8961]

Oh hush Mothwing you got mad at Shadowsight for being manipulated

[@beastmaster0934]

@@Idkidc2173 like that one time Fireheart yelled at Longtail, when the latter was trying to tell Fireheart about what Tigerstar was doing with the dogs. When I read that part, I was like “Yo Fireheart, can you calm the hell down?”

[@beastmaster0934]

Even before the book that shall not be named, Thistleclaw was an arrogant, aggressive, hot-headed cat who didn’t give a rat’s behind about anyone.

[@Third7Plays]

*except maybe his apprentice Tigerpaw

[@siqxyre8473]

Its important to understand the context of his personality too, because he is not evil for no reason. He was trained by Adderfang, a cat that reminder; was the one who fought mudfur 1v1 at sunningrocks. Adderfang taught him his battle ready ways from a young age, much in the same way that thistleclaw taught tigerpaw. The difference with adderfang though is that adderfang values family and clan, which at first is what thistleclaw valued too. That is, until snowfur died. We can safely assume thistleclaw either began training in the dark forest, or had been at this time. This manipulation would have led him to stop caring about his clan, rather caring about how his strength is perceived. He refuses to have his family make him see weak now. We can also take sweetpaw's death and put it into this context here. Perhaps he doesn't trust that his family won't leave him. He copes by blaming them for their deaths so he doesn't have to grieve. He grieved for sweetpaw, but with this new ideology he doesn't have to miss her anymore, he doesn't have to miss snowfur. His character is quite complex for being a background villain. And i do love his character for this reason. He's an interesting villain under the surface.

[@Echofrost5]

They say being in the Dark Forest can make a cat turn “evil” over time. So if Thistle did train there that would make sense as well for him to turn against family and clan. It’s kind of the same with Breezepelt, they used his family problems to drag him in too

[@SillyString27]

In Crookedstars promise, didn’t Crooked train with Thistleclaw in the df before her death though?

[@whoopihyena8961]

@@SillyString27 I actually recently reread Crookedstar’s promise And they actually never trained together And only met once Crookedjaw was a warrior/deputy. Crookedjaw saw Thistle’s mentor train him to use the killing bite. That’s was also when Crookedjaw found out he wasn’t in Starclan but in the Dark Forest and vowed to never train there again.

[@lalas181]

It'd be interesting to have something from Thistleclaw's pov so we could actually see his thought process. Oh well, guess that's yet another thing the weird decision to make him a child predator has ruined any and all chances of. Thanks, Spottedleaf's Heart!

[@Rikkiroo1008]

there was also a part in Bluestar's Prophecy, where Thistleclaw went to the twoleg place border to just attack kittypets. Thistleclaw was always looking for a fight and claimed it as being a loyal warrior. He threaten Bluestar on multiple times on some minor fucking reasons. The only reason he thought attacking Tiny was fine was because Tiny wasn't a clan kit

[@MidnightWhisper]

He wanted to mark the borders with kittypet blood too. And attacking kittypets should be obviously awful because....they are defenseless and not a threat to him at all!

[@Rikkiroo1008]

@@MidnightWhisper And not only that there is a law about hurting a kit and it doesn't matter which kit. His only reason for harming Tiny was because it wasn't a clan kit. which is a pretty dumb reason it's still an innocent kit that didn't know any better.

[@beastmaster0934]

@@Rikkiroo1008 Reminds me of Oakstar, who did the same thing.

[@mysryuza]

For a book about Spottedleaf and Thistleclaw, you’d think that Bluestar would be suspicious of his behavior towards Spottedpaw because she already doesn’t like him that much. Granted that she may not have seen it since the more “intimate” meetings were in secret probably but it would have been better if Bluestar told her to tell someone if she was in an uncomfortable situation or something that didn’t seem right. Opportunities to utilize Bluestar in the story were missed so obviously. For me, she was just… there. Why Spottedpaw didn’t tell Bluestar about this cat she cared about being affiliated with hell cats and devaluing Snowfur’s name, I don’t know. I find it weird how Spottedpaw wanted to be a med cat to distance from the warrior life but she still had connections with dead cats and alternate realms that give her the burden of giving omens and messages of the future that can either save or destroy the clans.

[@kougyokuus]

honestly, as someone who went through what spottedleaf had to go through, the writing in spottedleaf’s heart is TERRIBLE, and in my opinion its okay to deem spottedleaf’s heart as not canon AS LONG as you’re not doing it just to justify thistleclaw; because at that point you’re just completely invalidating trauma

[@Halxq]

Something I also hate is that Thistleclaw fans will get rid of Spottedleaf’s Heart, not because it was problematic in how they dealt with grooming, but due to the fact it didn’t make Thistleclaw “perfect”, like how they view him. Is Spottedleaf’s Heart a good book? No, not all all, there are a lot of things they could’ve done better with it, but you shouldn’t ignore it just because you like Thistleclaw. Basically, what I’m saying is that while you don’t have to view Spottedleaf’s Heart as canon, you shouldn’t ignore it just because you like Thistleclaw.

[@_The_Lizard_King]

@@Dont_support exactly. The double standard is one of the main reasons as to why I don't see Spottedleaf's heart as canon. And, at least Thistleclaw wasn't a literal stalker lol. Not only was Spottedleaf attracted to Firestar when he was a child and she was 4 or 5 years old, but she also stalked Firestar for the majority of his life. It just seems kinda wrong, y'know-

[@crossbowmeat]

I was a Thistleclaw fan, reminded tht I said *was* . I found out about him through a map and thiught he looked kind of silly, so I began liking him, but..then Spottedleaves heart happened to me. Yeah Its safe to say I hate Thistleclaw.

[@kycinder]

wait who actually does support thistleclaw

[@Sun_thebugcl0wn]

Hello Thistleclaw fan here, i know this was made one year ago, ye i am fully aware of this but i don’t get rid of Spottedleaf heart cause he was “perfect” cause tbh, i genuinely think that Thistleclaw seem…out of character with me, like don’t get my wrong, for a reason Tigerstar was shaped like that and Scourge was shaped like that, that’s what i like of Thistleclaw cause he shaped two bad cats, buuutttt…the fact he did that? Feels disgusting, along from what i remember, Thistle was too attached to Snowfur so why the fuck they even do that? And the way the writers handle is bad, so, i am a Thistleclaw fan? Yes, do I threat him like a baby boy? No I am aware of this, i aint even gonna be an apologist for him

[@SassyNymphet]

@@Sun_thebugcl0wnexactly, it was so out of character.. like why is he a groomer out of no where?? like we got it, he was a bad guy in bluestars prophecy, he didnt need another reason. and also, if they needed to give spottedleaf some tragic backstory they easily couldve not made her a grooming victim, who agreed with this???

[@Licifer420]

He was a bad cat, not a bad character. And he always was a villain. But he was a cleverly written villain, and one that some people could see and some actually enjoyed. I personally have Tigerstar as my favorite cat. Not because he was good, but because he was a good villain. But Thistleclaw…I can’t even like him now. The writing and planning for Spottedleaf’s heart just completely ruined any redeeming qualities he had as a villain. It would’ve been better if they chose a random background cat, or made a new one, and didn’t instead ruin the fandoms view of Thistleclaw.

[@mel3216]

I hate Thisleclaw with a burning passion. This video is great and addresses every single bit of information on Thisleclaw!

[@LocalLazyStove]

THANK YOU! I have been always waiting for a video like this, I feel like that he has been evil from the gecko and I must admit I tend to forget that he was like this since the very beginning, I think is because I don’t really like Bluestar Prophecy for some reason so I tend to not read it a lot but at least the book isn’t Spottedleaf Heart BLAH, like I wouldn’t mind if the books show a predatory relationship if it is portrayed correctly and the topic itself is written with care and correctly which is how the book failed because the book felt like it was glorified the relationship and didn’t call it out for it was actually a predatory relationship which is already bad enough especially that one scene where ask Thistleclaw to choose either her or the dakr forest, WTF IS THAT NO- I feel like the writers shouldn’t have wrote this book if they didn’t know how to approach this topic with care

[@5rcane]

Thistleclaw ironically made the right choice by choosing the Dark Forest. A broken clock is right two times a day.

[@LocalLazyStove]

Lol your right, although ngl that it thought a question like that was going to be asked to Spottedpaw by Thistleclaw like “You either choose me or the pathetic StarClan” or something like that since i seen that that type of question is common with groomers and underage people although you know what? I’m glad that Thistleclaw decided to choose the Dark forest cause I didn’t have to witness more of this monstrosity, as Spottedpaw, girl what- why did you ask that question- of course he gonna choose the dark forest and why did you ask that again do you want to stay into this disgusting relationship? Well I hope that not what you were actually wanting and you knew that he was gonna choose the Dark forest-

[@Barakon]

* from the get go not מהשממית

[@zrainyday5266]

@@LocalLazyStove I mean sure I guess but she can't really be faulted for that. She was a child being groomed into thinking that this abusive dynamic was normal. She wasn't to know any better. But yeah I'm very glad the pedophileclaw chose hell. Ultimately the allure of murder was much more to his liking than continuing to groom a child, thankfully.

[@Beulraeki]

I've always hated Thistleclaw with a burning passion. Thank you for covering this.

[@zrainyday5266]

Same. A lot of his stans forget that he was an abusive cat long before he began grooming Spottedpaw. He was always callous to Bluestar, he abused Tigerpaw AND Whitepaw, he called his mate and kit weak while training in hell and he attacked random kittypets for no good reason. Why people try and excuse him, I'll never understand.

[@blossomdazzle]

I'm so glad people can see that Thistleclaw was terrible from the very start.

[@lalas181]

I was honestly kind of excited when I first heard there was going to be a Spottedleaf novella before this book actually came out. I really wanted to see her get to have more of a personality outside of "she's Firestar's ghost secretary and not-girlfriend". It's a shame that we got something that I'm hesitant to read in full because of how botched it seems. Sure it gives a fanon reason for why she saw nothing wrong with her post-death pseudo-romance with this cat who she only ever knew in life as the Warriors equivalent of a sixth grader, but at what cost??? At what cost??? Were the "Is Thistle a cat-pedo" discourse wars worth it??? _Were they??????_

[@Nectarsong]

Great video! I completely agree that Thistleclaw was never really a good cat and I wish more people in the fandom would acknowledge this. I do want to make a correction though and that's regarding Bluefur's pregnancy, which actually hadn't been announced to the Clan yet. Only Leopardfoot and Rosetail knew, and Thrushpelt only knew because Rosetail told him. Leopardfoot mentions that it wouldn't be long before the toms noticed (something we see with Sunstar after the border skirmish), but that's it. After she finds out, Bluefur actually asks to be excused from her duties and Thrushpelt offering to be the father actually comes literally right before Thistleclaw and Tigerclaw's confrontation with Oakheart. Point is, it's not exactly clear if Thistleclaw knew or not, but I wouldn't be surprised if he did. But again, great video!

[@astralwyrm3787]

The thing about Thistleclaw is that it is supposed to be ambiguous from Bluestar's point of view as to wether he was good or evil. She followed Starclan's wishes based largely on faith rather than concrete reasons. It needed to be set up this way so her arc in season 1 made sense.

[@sugarrmoon]

…..no??? it was not ambiguous. he goes to the kittypet place and attacks kittypets who arent even in clan territory. he says he wants to mark thunderclans borders with the blood of their enemies. he tries to kill MULTIPLE CATS, one of those cats being a CHILD. he tries to get his son into battle training when hes not out of the nursery and whines about how much of a dissapointment he is when the literal toddler isnt good at fighting. hes a bad cat. its not “ambiguous” its very straight forward and very clear.

[@astralwyrm3787]

@@sugarrmoon *From Bluestar's point of view* She's sacrificed her whole life and children on the say so of Starclan that Thistleclaw is evil and will ruin the clan. She doesn't see him perform any evil actions. Agressive actions yes. Not very nice actions yes. But not evil ones. Not anything he might not be talked out of doing. This is why in the first season Bluestar goes mental; it seems to her the entire course of her life has been Starclan messing with her life for no good reason other than to watch her suffer.

[@alexismyers6053]

I love warriors who are meant to be fierce and intimidating, but the wiki makes them look hilariously ridiculous. Brokenstar, Thistleclaw, Mistcloud, Raggenstar, the first three don’t even look like cats lol But one thing I’ve noticed is the Erin’s are good at writing villains, but fail to completely grasp what makes them villainous. Like you said, they think Thistleclaw training in the dark forest was what made him evil when it’s very obviously NOT the case. But the cats like Freckwish are sent there for… not sacrificing her life in a useless attempt to save kits when she had every reason to believe there were going to be saved by RIVERCLAN cats? Like at least say something like “oh, she did something BEFORE the events of Mapleshade’s Vengeance.” If all it takes in training in the Dark Forest, then why not hint at her having done that since Birchface’s death? And then her FATHER who not only was the one that sent the kits to their death by exiling them, but also (as I saw pointed out somewhere else) attacked kittypets in their own homes, went to StarClan and gave Pinestar one of his nine lives, even giving him the “life of judgement” as if Oakstar himself had made good choices in life. The Erin’s have a weird way of looking at what does and doesn’t constitute as “villainy.” Rainflower and Lizardstripe abused kits and we know that Rainflower goes to StarClan while Lizardstripe we can assume did so too. Meanwhile, Snowtuft can’t even remember what he did to be sent there and given the extremes wwe’ve seen, it could be anything from “he sneezed the wrong way” to “he committed mass genocide.” There’s really no crime too small to be made into a villain for the Erin’s.

[@CrazyWarriorCatLady]

Didn’t Thistleclaw grieve heavily for his sister, Sweetpaw? Plus, when Snowfur had Whitekit Bluefur was surprised by how kind he was towards Snowfur and Whitekit, allowing Snowfur to name their new kit whatever she wanted. Thistleclaw was a complex character before Spottedleaf’s Heart. He wasn’t perfect, but he wasn’t an evil groomer either. He was ambitious to an extreme degree, but that was about it. In fact, Sunstar wasn’t planning to make him deputy because he knew what Thistleclaw had been doing, attacking kitty pets and pretending that they were trying to invade their territory. Bluefur even acknowledged that she was ambitious too, but Sunstar comforted her by stating that she was ambitious, but conducted herself in a way that was best for the clan. I am not a fan of Spottedleaf’s Heart for a NUMBER of reasons. First, Spottedleaf was presented as a kit who was interested in being a medicine cat from the beginning as she watched Featherwhisker outside of the medicine den. Suddenly, she wanted to be a warrior with Thistleclaw? And because Thistleclaw was so violent, she felt forced to become a medicine cat to avoid the numerous battles he planned. What?! Plus, Moonkitti’s statement about the book is true. It should have been written better explaining why this was a bad relationship and a really dangerous situation. I like Warriors, but let’s face it, it is a huge mess.

[@emilyhale1049]

Thank you!

[@YinAndYang_ii]

Everyone angry about the “giant age gap” yet it was a 2 to 1 year age gap and yet nobody complains that THORNCLAW IS 5 YEARS OLDER THAN BLOSSOMFALL BASICALLY

[@_The_Lizard_King]

The issue is that Thistleclaw gr00med Spottedleaf. He started when she was a *kit.*

[@YinAndYang_ii]

@@_The_Lizard_King yeah he did, i know it is very wrong but still wonder why thorn and blossoms gap hasn’t been brought up

[@SillyNep]

@@YinAndYang_ii probably because in the age range spottedleaf was it was more relevant? thats like saying why bring up the 10 year age gap between a 12 year old and a 22 year old when there are couples that are idk 30 and 40 and together. The age gap is relevant it just requires the rest of the context.

[@SillyNep]

though for the record that pairing is a bit odd too but its not criminal at least

[@5re0r]

It's an age gap, yes, but they were both adults. That's the difference. Thistleclaw went after Spottedleaf as an apprentice, technically a teenager. Both Blossomfall and Thornclaw were both adults. Even though they have a concerning age gap, there was no grooming involved and they were both warriors who could make their own decisions.

[@LittleLion420]

I’m really excited to watch the video! Always love your content and its great to see more :)

[@Ratte29]

Hot take but hear me out: i absolutely LOVE the book Spottedleafs heart. Rn its my favourite book of all WaCa books. And thats also kind of thanks to you youtubers who make these great videos! I watched review videos and saw this issue brought up by fans before i could read the book myself. Thank you sm for making these educational videos!!❤❤ I was prepared and educated about the whole relationship beforehand and so i could enjoy all scenes WITHOUT Thistleclaws disgusting behavior. Thanks to the fandom i went through all the phases in the book and felt with Spottedpaw, while also being comforted that- even though i agree it is absolutely bad the Erins didnt directly portrayed his actions as grooming- i knew EVERYBODY still knew. We all werent fooled and as someone who had similar experiences as a child like Spottedpaw- this book made me connect with her and while i hated her before with Firestar and all- i love her now. And omg Bluefur and Spottedpaw was such a cute relationship!❤❤❤ I probably forgot a million things i wanted to say but this comment is already too long! Lol Spottedpaw/-leaf has my whole heart ❤ and for that im grateful for this book. And grateful to you guys, otherwise the awful behaviour of thistleclaw wouldve overshadowed all the amazing, heartwarming and emotional moments in the book! The scene with Snowfur at the end made me nearly cry. What a beautiful au it could be! Spottedpaw surrounded by Bluefur, Snowfur, Bluefurs and Snowfurs kits and the medicine cat ♡w♡ just- everyone without Thistleclaw basically 😂 and Tigerpaw getting a chance to be kindhearted (or he died too lol)

[@Hail_scal3zzz]

Even before the book, he was. He encouraged his apprentice to attack a harmless kittypet kit. It was also a big part of Bluestar's entire story that he is genuinely bad, so bad she'd risk her kits to NOT let him lead.

[@stoptagz6905]

You never cease to amaze me with your content 👏🏻

[@TaffyCat6712]

I saw a KZbin short listing all the weird things in warrior cats, and pedophiles was listed. So I searched up on KZbin: “warrior cats pedophiles??” And this came up.

[@whoopihyena8961]

Me who likes Thistle because he’s a problematic character and evil cat: 👀 👁👁 (Please don’t hate me for this by the way. I’ve generally gotten hate messages for loving Thistleclaw’s character because of how irredeemable he is. This video explains it perfectly.) Edit: Y’all won’t believe it But guess who got Threatened AGAIN for liking Thistleclaw? :D

[@lalas181]

Enjoying 👏 villains 👏 as 👏 villains 👏 is 👏 okay!👏

[@whoopihyena8961]

@@lalas181 Thank you! While I do hate how Thistle was portrayed as a predator and how the topic was handled. There’s not really much I can actually do about it.

[@Spottedstorm27]

Thank you! I get hate for liking Bramblestar as a character. Like, I acknowledge he's a terrible, terrible mate. But as a character that's okay. Not everyone is meant to be with another person, and outside his toxic relationship, I really enjoy him and his attempts to leave his father's shadow. My brother went through that too. It hurts people mentally!

[@Grace-2010op]

Omg thank you!!! Everyone hates me for liking ashfur like bro you like tigerstar but I cant like ashfur!? Id say they are bot equally evil ig

[@zrainyday5266]

Honestly, that's not right. You shouldn't be threatened for liking a fictional character. While personally I despise him and his canon of being a pedophile is too close to home for me, it's fine if others like him as long as they acknowledge that he's a villain and was portrayed as an abuser long before SH. What annoys me is his stans claiming he did nothing wrong and decanonizing SH just because they love Thistleclaw(It's quite arrogant for 1 but also it downplays trauma imo.). Although I will note that they shouldn't be threatened either. I mean I love Ashfur as a villain but my god is he a terrible cat lmao.

[@evelynnjones5442]

Why do I feel that the way that he got rewarded for being reckless caused him to be like this seeing he could get away with everything even...yea you know.

[@_The_Lizard_King]

Thistleclaw was always bad, but when he and Snowfur were mates, he wasn't nearly as bad.

[@OrcathecatSR]

You welcome. Thanks for uploading videos!

[@SassyNymphet]

i feel like “grooming spottedleaf” didnt even make him worse. not much even happened with that, i mean she fell in love with him and found out he was training in the df, then we started manipulating her etc.. then some cat saying she has a “StUpId HeArT” or something???

[@404_zephyrus_error_5]

Don't know if you've done this but . . .PLEASE talk about Pinestar and Leopardfoot!! Thier age gap is HORRIBLE. (Aka, he was LEADER before she was BORN)

[@Mu1ch1r0..]

I KNOW, when I read bluestars prophecy I was disgusted about the age gap and it was just weird

[@d3cay3d...68]

I think Thistleclaw was not that bad.......... ly written. His character was meant to be an evil manipulative cat, and they scored that perfectly. He was evil and horrible. Although I do love villians, including him. But I do still think he is VERY evil. He is evil, but that was what he was made for.

[@moikey109]

I kinda hated that spottedleafs heart existed, I liked his character before I read her book, he was a good antagonist

[@Raven15-]

I like thistleclaw as a villan. But im bit a huge fan of him. What he did to spottedpaw was not okaym

[@thetruebloodchannel6194]

Man, I feel like Spottedleaf's Heart would be a 1000x better if Thistleclaw's grooming was non-sexual/non-romantic (since that is a thing). That would be terrible of him to do, ofc, but it wouldn't be nearly as gross as what actually happened. I'd also give Spottedleaf a support system in Bluestar, Goosefeather, Rosetail, and Thrushpelt, eaching showing support in their own ways

[@SpxderNymph..]

That’s not thistleclaw. That’s Judifur

[@5rcane]

???

[@SpxderNymph..]

@@5rcane sorry lol my friend told me to comment that because when we say the Spottedleafs Heart lost footage she said “Omigawd it’s Judifur!” We have Weird humor

[@lobathewolf3021]

Well now… thistle had a novella out now we know why he did it he didn’t know because snow fur actually was the same way he was to snow fur

[@totallynot._.crystal9952]

I like cats that are evil or mean because it makes the story more interesting, so I liked Thistleclaw UNTIL SPOTTEDLEAFS HEART!!!

[@DragonArbock]

I think the problem more is that I don't think Thistleclaw is any worse than some characters that have gone to Starclan, not that he was perfectly innocent. Raggedstar killed his father and forced Yellowfang into a relationship. Bluestar got her own kit killed. Even in regards to the grooming thing, Pine(star) get with Leopardfoot very young, then abandoned her and their kits. Blackstar, as much as I like him, also killed cats in cold blood. I don't see why Thistleclaw is so terrible compared to the likes of Tigerstar, who wanted to commit ethnic cleansing, unless going to the dark forest is a choice.. which the newer books have shown is is not, so..

[@muddy_snows7534]

Wait….. Thistleclaw has FANS?!?! People these days.😤

[@prcervi]

I just find spottedleaf's heart excessive on the terrible thistleclaw front, and that all boils down to the fact the erins really fucked up when writing why the child predator is a bad person. in the hands of a better writer or writing team this is an amazingly good book with a harrowing character centric plot with a villain you'd want children to be able to spot in real life, but it was done by the erins and jfc they fucked up.

[@greatness4]

Котятки ❤️✨

[@PyroArina]

Oh... Well i guess Thistleclaw wasn't good in the first place. That's great. 🙃

[@moonstonethenightwing]

Interesting

[@cryptid6279]

wait, people like thistleclaw??

[@marywallace3620]

I like thistleclaw as an intriguing villain but Spottedleaf's heart makes me feel highly uncomfortable.

[@zrainyday5266]

@@RIPPEDEYEZ Honestly I hate it when the fandom does this with any cat but considering Thistleclaw is a pedophile, it just hits way too hard for me and I hate it more than I hate ones like the sympathizer Nightcloud maps. It's fine to like him as he was intended, a villain. But god it annoys me when they make him a saint or whatever.

[@zrainyday5266]

@@RIPPEDEYEZ I've seen Thistle lovers who aren't apologists. While I don't understand the appeal at all, yeah it's fine. Oh god yeah, the Thistle maps are the worst for me but Mapleshade maps are also some of the worst in terms of the apologism. But honestly, Bramblestar maps are worse than Maple maps because I was emotionally abused by someone kind of like Bramblestar though we weren't lovers, he was a vague parental figure. Moonkitti's video actually began planting seeds of "Something's not right" so I'm very glad she made it. Yes that annoys me too. EG: The Frecklewish drama. I love her but my god she isn't a saint. She's one of the best written nuanced characters, meaning SHE HAS NUANCE. So just dumbing her down to "Just good" or "Just evil" really is a massive disservice to her frankly, very good characterization. And while I do see more reasonable people who acknowledge what she DID do wrong nowadays, when everything first started, people(Mostly commenters and people who never read the books ngl) were completely and utterly excusing her actions during the exile scene which kinda really annoyed me. Grief is an explanation, not an excuse. And that's something a lot of the fandom seems not to understand. There is always an explanation but an explanation is not a justification. And sometimes there just isn't any justification. You can like a character without excusing their actions. But for some reason, certain people seem to have this need to only like good characters(Perhaps they were raised this way? Maybe they're sheltered or something?) so when they begin liking a character who's done some questionable or even bad things, perhaps they feel guilty about liking them despite the actions and so try and justify it? I don't know. It's very hard to understand why apologism happens but that's my best guess considering the target audience. There's also the issue of people who only watch the maps and end up believing that a character is bad because the map host portrayed them as such. It also is what causes misinformation to be widely spread in this fandom imo. The biased maps(Not hating, the people who made them worked very hard, I know.) tend to be the reason cats like Reedshine, Frecklewish, Dovewing and Bluestar get so over-hated. Because while yes, they may've had unlikable traits that people didn't gel with when they read the material, a lot of arguments against them are either unconfirmed by canon and only seen in maps, blatantly not canon or blown way out of proportion and given no context, usually done in maps due to bias and limited time in the song.

[@zrainyday5266]

​@@RIPPEDEYEZ Yeah I'm also sort of attached to Frecklewish but prolly for different reasons. I more so got attached to her by constantly defending her and now she and Squilf kind of my comfort characters lmao. And it's so annoying to see her get demonized for no reason(Legit saw a well made map about her that seemed promising at first but then had her be uncharacteristically mean to Mapleshade. She only hated Maple after the lie. Oh and it also had her smile when the kits died, not even most Mapleshade maps have her grinning at that then she was dragged into hell... Classy). I can understand hating her actions during the exile scene or just not vibing well with the character but making up reasons to despise her is honestly rather silly. And honestly, most apologizing maps about her still can't really be apologism BECAUSE they have to show that exile scene. It's an integral part of her story that one can't leave out in a map like you can in a comment. So that's why most of even her most apologetic maps still don't go in the same direction as most Thistleclaw or Mapleshade maps. Granted, I'd argue that the actions of these worse characters are just as integral to them as Frecklewish's actions to her during the exile scene. Maybe it's easier for Thistle apologists to leave out Thistleclaw's bad side than Frecklewish apologists to leave out her bad side due to the fact that Thistleclaw's actions are incredibly hard to even explain. If you put the exile scene in a map, sure she was absolutely wrong for that. But you don't need to say she was a morally horrific person because of it. And apologism aside, she wasn't. Whereas if you put in Thistleclaw's actions, his pattern of abusive behavior to kids and Bluefur + his grooming of Spottedpaw + his full knowledge of what he was doing in the DF while taking pleasure in it, he has not even an explanation other than being trained by Adderfang(Which doesn't excuse anything obvi nor does it explain his training in hell or his grooming) and you would never be able to say he's a good cat who made mistakes. Because him and Mapleshade and also Nightcloud were written as pure villains. Frecklewish was written to be morally grey and nuanced but not evil. She was created to make you think. They were created to have an antagonist for the plot. Frecklewish wasn't as much as some salty Maple defenders might want to claim. As for Bramblestar, I have no idea what went wrong when writing him since he was actually supposed to be a purely good cat. Instead he ended up being almost as bad as his father in different ways. How they accidentally wrote their goody two shoes to commit spousal abuse, I'll never know lol. Oh that's a good point too. A lot of the fandom is very close minded. It may be another reason why nuanced characters tend to be hated for no reason or turned to mindless saints. I understand having strong morals, I have a strong moral compass too. But these are fictional characters. We can indulge a bit without justifying their actions. I love Hawkfrost and Ashfur. And while I believe that Hawkfrost could've been a good cat if some things had gone differently, these are both terrible people who did terrible things. But they're still fun to enjoy as villains. But a lot of the fandom doesn't get this. And this close-mindedness and absolute need for moral purity also tends to cause them to not comprehend the context behind a morally grey character's actions. This ends up leading to further unnecessary hate and character butchering. It is a very cathartic feeling to see the problematic characters get called out. And yet people act like Moonkitti is some hateful overthinking asshole for calling the character out just because she said what needed to be said. Legit, after her very helpful and well made Bramblestar video was published, people on Twitter were salt posting and calling her a pedophile purely because they were mad that their favorite got called out. And just try making a post about how bad Bramblestar is on Reddit. Chances are, while most comments will agree, a portion will be aggressively furious. Mention Moonkitti's video however, and the stans will really come out. I really don't understand the hate for her. From what I've seen it's just because she has different and imo, mature opinions that clash with this fandom's status quo. I've seen this issue for other big KZbinrs like Akira, Sunnyfall and Shummy too for their own videos on these kinds of topics. I've never seen anyone say bad things about them that aren't "I hated the video >:( Therefore they are bad and should be terminated". Moonkitti herself has even briefly mentioned this issue in her Frecklewish video. It's actually kind of sad tbh.

[@zrainyday5266]

​@@RIPPEDEYEZ I haven't quite been hated for liking Frecklewish since it's a much easier climate to appreciate her now but back before she was put in hell and the defenders came out, it was pretty hard to enjoy her from what I've seen and heard(I used to be mostly neutral on her during that time before I reread the book and began defending her). And even now, Maple fans or just general Freckle haters still salt-post about Frecklewish getting the same treatment as Mapleshade. I guess they're finally getting a mirror held up with a character they hate. Except even the actual Freckle stans(Not talking people who just enjoy her character, talkin the actual apologists) aren't even as bad because Frecklewish has really only done one bad thing that would "need" to be excused. So fighting with them doesn't result in as many goose chasing and argument circling. Meanwhile Mapleshade has done a lot before and after being exiled that "needs" to be excused meaning more ridiculous and non-canon logic twists are made for her(*Coughs in "Twoleg bridge didn't exist!" Despite Mapleshade using twoleg bridge the same exact book*. And it's ridiculous how much toxicity comes from these arguments too. People really don't want their faves called out for some reason. And I get that it can be a little painful, kinda like when your fave KZbinr is exposed as an abuser but it's necessary imo. Oh god yeah. People need to stop hating others just for opinions on fictional kitties. Also it annoys me when they try and use the fact that (Insert big name here but usually Moon or Sunnyfall) made a video about it to discredit the argument. Like as if that changes anything? It's still a good argument. Probably why the KZbinr in question used it in the first place. And then they say things like "Oh I just want people to have their own opinions!" And if they meant that, then I'd somewhat agree but most people are forming their own opinions. Some aren't but most are. Just because the same arguments come up doesn't mean it's not from a place of self-formed opinions. I mean, people probably should look at a grieving woman who made a few mistakes and go "Yeah she doesn't deserve hell." I feel like that's a pretty fair and natural take that anyone could have. It's not their fault that others including big names also have the sense to think that. Not to mention the same people arguing for original opinions are the same people trying to get us to fall in line with loving and no longer calling out their faves. Faves who were way more problematic than Squirrelflight, Bluestar or Frecklewish. Mhm. Felt so bad for him. Their videos were incredibly well-made and had a lot of effort put into them. It also helped me further see some of Frecklewish's psychology if you will. I mean I already had began like her but I hadn't really thought much about the implications of Birchface's death causing her to fear water or the fact that she gave Mapleshade a chance to escape purely because she still felt something for her depsite everything she had done. Maggot Belly is also one of the best Frecklewish maps Imo along with Oh-Klaholma(This map in particular may've given me the idea to make Freckle and Raven friends in my HC lol as it shows her sorta grieving for his death. I just think the idea is neat). So seeing them get so much hate just cause it shows some nuances to the character and doesn't make Mapleshade out as the perfect saint they want her to be does annoy me a fair bit. Just let others have opinions, to the potential readers of this discussion. I'm sure most of you do but I'm saying it anyway. I'm not sure which KZbinr hosted the map I'm talking about though a quick YT search would probably yield the answer since the map I'm thinking of is near the top. But in terms of the one who goes on positive Freckle vids to hate, I won't name names but if you're talking about someone who makes frequent hate videos about her, then we may be talking about the same person. We may not be since I've been seeing em less lately, though. There's like only one video of their's that I think is fine purely because it's focusing just on the exile scene from my understanding. Everything else portrayed is not canon at all yet is being treated as such. And honestly, there's a lot of people who go on videos just to hate Frecklewish. It's silly. I can think of a couple who's usernames I've seen frequently. Like if Frecklewish were an actually problematic character like Rainflower(People so often compare her to that scum might I add which is honestly so untrue. Frecklewish insulted the kits once and called for their exile in an emotional outburst. Still bad but not as bad as abusing your son over his looks for his whole life.) or Thistleclaw, I'd get it. Problematic characters with no redeeming qualities shouldn't have videos that give them any kind of soap box(Fun videos about their villainy is fine though imo. But not defending their actions). But Frecklewish is not that. At the end of the day, like you said, people just need to let each other have their own opinions. So long as opinions in question aren't romanticizing a pedophile like Thistleclaw or an abuser because that can be incredibly triggering for some including myself.

[@tawnystream4810]

What do you use for your drawing im new to your channel and I would really like to try it

[@AquatheOhioKittysDen]

If you mean the program I use it too, it’s called Clip Studio Paint. No it’s not free.

[@tawnystream4810]

@@AquatheOhioKittysDen thanks hon

[@WolfDragon1202]

A what look!? (I heard the sh word, and I'm pretty sure that 4cane's a kid friendly yter...)

[@OfficalRowen]

Thistleclaw was never a "good" cat. SH just made him not even a villain where you're able to like how bad they are. I understand if there are Tigerstar I fans. You love to hate him. I can't love to hate a child predator though.

[@jays-foot2015]

Okay okay I know this will sounds really terrifying at the same time gross but I just found out fact that when cat reach 6 mouth of age they start looking for mate ;-;

[@Panikedhehe-ed7sz]

This video did NOT age well💀💀

[@dootdootperson4304]

thistleclaws design = emo cat also iv only read into the wild and about half of fire and ice but why does a lot of people hate on spottedleaf- (im fine with spoilers :P)

[@TemporalWarrior]

I think that it's because she's mostly a love interest to firestar and nothing else.

[@dootdootperson4304]

@@TemporalWarrior most likely yeah

[@dootdootperson4304]

@@TemporalWarrior fireheart when she dies: oh no she was hot! anyway

[@dootdootperson4304]

@@RIPPEDEYEZ ah ok thx

[@dootdootperson4304]

@@RIPPEDEYEZ Ive now read further into the books (Up to a little bit of Rising Storm) I dont see SpottedLeaf being creepy in the slightest? All she does is give FireHeart prophecies like any other starclan cat

[@LadyfingersTV]

4crane: we can all agree spotted leaf's heart was a s***ty book me who liked it: TO THE COMMENTS!

[@zrainyday5266]

Honestly it was ALMOST a good book for me. It portrayed grooming incredibly well(As triggering as the topic is, it was written well), whether that was intentional, I don't know. But what made it the worst book for me was that it didn't address the grooming. It portrayed all of that well and showed how scary it is but then didn't call out his actions. By not calling it out, instead of making a cautionary tale, they made a book romanticizing a pedophilic dynamic which automatically put it at the bottom for me. They made him out as bad for all the wrong reasons. Sure he was a blood lusting dirt-bag but he was also pure scum who deserved the Dark Forest and more for grooming a literal child. I think if a cat like Bluefur(Is notoriously suspicious and hateful of Thistleclaw, understandably) or Thrushpelt(Spottedleaf's former mentor) had figured out what was happening, called it out and had both an explanation to the child demographic/Spottedpaw why this was bad and had Thistleclaw exiled, this could've been one of the best books in the franchise.

[@paradox-they-them9039]

How does Spottedleaf's Heart feature pedophiliac? I never understood that since cats can reach sexual maturity and get pregnant at just four months of age. Cats can't be pedophilles. They don't know what that is. Cats also don't know what grooming is. So I don't get the big deal. I read the book and I actually didn't mind it. It teaches a lesson at least in my opinion.

[@mysryuza]

lemme explain something that I’ve said before in copy-paste fashion *ahem* “Apprentices are considered teenagers. The mentality of apprentices reflect more closely to teens than adults. The book made implications clear with the “But you’re a warrior and I’m an apprentice” and “you won’t be an apprentice forever.” Somehow people forget that predators like to use the “you won’t be a teen/kid forever” thing and how they wait until the target becomes old enough for them to bang. “Sexually active at 6 months” yeah and guess how old people are sexually matured or something among that. Yes people and cats are different but the characters are written like humans relationship wise and intelligence. Sexually mature or not, let’s not forget that Thistleclaw was already onto Spotted as a kit. Most cats don’t even become mates with someone until they’re warriors, even if they’re close in age. If that doesn’t imply teenager in a story about cats that act like humans, idk what is.” Yes cats are technically sexually mature at 6 months, but the books disregard that real life fact and the apprentices are written like teenagers intentionally. The nursery are for kits, children-children. And apprentices are considered young and naive in warriors’ eyes and apprenticeship at a young age is kinda like going into school (middle and high school), and new warriors are treated like graduates, which typically is when someone is around 18 or so. Apparently, people who use the “they’re cats and they are sexually mature at 6 months” like to disregard the parallels that the writers intentionally wrote into the series for the sake of “technicalities” of reality when this isn’t even about real life cats” They’re cats yes, but the series doesn’t always stick to the logic of real life cats and writing the characters in a relatable way with humanlike intelligence. Real life cats don’t know what pedophilia is, but the writers do and they can write the characters to know what it is. There are people who can explain it way better than I do.

[@lalas181]

Humans can get pregnant at 13, but that doesn't make it any less skeevy and bad for an adult man with a dead wife, a child, and a mortgage to hit on a 13 year old who menstruates. It's also important to remember that these cats are basically funny woods people. They have various religions. They have systems of government. They have standardized healthcare. They have the concepts of xenophobia and "sins of the father". _They can talk to ghosts and sometimes they have superpowers._ Just because the Clans don't have a word for pedophilia or hebeophilia doesn't mean that the funny people-brain feral cats doing pedophilic things is suddenly all hunky-dory. The words "adoptive parents" weren't ever used for Squirrelflight and Bramblestar's relationship with Jay, Lion, and Holly, but that doesn't mean that isn't what they were. We're just calling a duck a duck, so to speak. I'm glad you can find a lesson and some sort of value in the novella. That's genuinely great! I'm glad for you. Still doesn't make Thistleclaw's courting of this pubescent cat-high schooler any shade of non-predatory, though.

[@mothwingthemedicinecat]

Well, the problem is that in warriors cats aren’t like that. I mean, have we ever had an apprentice actually having kits? We haven’t. Apprentices are like teenagers in the books.

[@applepvw]

Yeah homie this opinion should’ve stayed in ur head

[@_kaleido]

@@applepvw I disagree, they seemed to be asking genuinely and hopefully the replies helped educate them and anyone else who may have thought the same