Penn Jillette on why his views on libertarianism have changed

[@DodderingOldMan]

A lot of what he says resonates with me. I thought Libertarianism had a lot going for it... until I discovered what most Libertarians think and believe...

[@schmetterling4477]

They believe that they are better than you and that you should be their slaves. ;-)

[@mikevanroy9356]

You mean libertarians actually think libertarian? That's like visiting a Buddhist temple and being disappointed you didn't find Jesus.

[@schmetterling4477]

@@mikevanroy9356 He means that libertarians are habitual liars. :-)

[@meanunclebob1819]

The term "libertine" comes to mind.

[@Ottawa411]

When I was in university I briefly toyed with libertarianism. There are parts of it that I still like, but I think that the other parts are a massive disaster, as we see among many American Libertarians today.

[@thefareplayer2254]

Who else is watching this on November 7th, 2024 and REALLY resonated with the last line?

[@royms2000]

It's not hard for me to be an optimist now, it's completely impossible.

[@jamesrobertson9597]

Present : (

[@GermanSausagesAreTheWurst]

Interessant, nicht war?

[@MikeFrame]

Yes optimism is suddenly very scarce

[@jasonamrhein9593]

Amen. 🙁

[@kristiandoon8976]

I have always found it quaint and rather touching that there is a movement [Libertarians] in the US that thinks Americans are not yet selfish enough. ~Christopher Hitchens

[@PotatoMcFry]

You're never called selfish for wanting to take someone else's money. Only for wanting to keep your own.

[@kristiandoon8976]

@@PotatoMcFry There is no such thing as a self-made man. Every businessman has used the vast American infrastructure, which the taxpayers paid for, to make his money ~George Lakoft

[@lebojay]

@@kristiandoon8976And many of them won the parents lottery, too.

[@chrischandler889]

Libertarians all over the world are united in liberty. Liberty is not selfishness.

[@kristiandoon8976]

@@chrischandler889 The lie of liberty is the mask for the desire for profits in blood I pledge compliance to the flag, of the corporate state of America. And to the oligarchy, for which it stands, one nation, under the New York stock exchange, divisible depending on political convenience, with liberty, and a flexible definition of justice for all who can afford it. 🇺🇸

[@lrvogt1257]

Despite the lofty rhetoric, Libertarianism is a stalking horse for plutocracy. When democratic institutions are weakened, the power vacuum is filled by money. Advantage begets advantage and the disadvantaged become more powerless and poorer as income inequality increases.

[@mikevanroy9356]

As opposed to a government that is filled by money?

[@lrvogt1257]

@@mikevanroy9356 Are you aware there is an election coming up? Are you voting for Microsoft, Google or Amazon? No. You are voting for our government because it is controlled by us.

[@JCbeatProductions]

Nancy Pelosi's Net worth is 240 Million, Joe Biden = 10 Million, Trump = 5 Billion.

[@blacksquirrel4008]

Exactly

[@lrvogt1257]

@@mikevanroy9356 our government… by design represents the people. It doesn’t always do it well but a corporation’s only duty is to take your money.

[@diesixdie2]

I have always misinterpreted Penn's definition of libertarianism, until now. I would like to thank him for clarifying. I wish more of us could be as optimistic, and that we could live up to his ideal of what it would be like to live in that kind of world. Yes. We should take care of one another, and we shouldn't have to be forced to do so.

[@scottchristofersen2367]

His daughter told me his views had evolved on a different social media platform and I sought this out. He has not necessarily changed but I love that he has explained why he realized the platform was not meshing with his views.

[@Fuliginosus]

I misunderstood him too, but I think that's largely because he acted like kind of a tough-guy/jerk on that show where he and Teller would attack people with unusual beliefs.

[@christophermcclellan8730]

I’ve subscribed to his same thoughts on libertarianism since I was 17. I also pretty quickly came to the conclusion that it only works if we actually care about and for each other.

[@darkalman]

@@christophermcclellan8730 The selfish Libertarians are the ones that make it impossible to implement, funny how that works.

[@ScooterDugnutt]

"For someone like me, who lives his life like an optimist, the world is making it kind of goddamn hard right now." PREACH 🙏🙏

[@7orqu3]

optimistic people in America are fools. just look around you. morons

[@hyweljones8026]

Penn Jillette = Legend He was one of the main people to get me interested in Libertarianism. Now he has pretty much summed up all of my issues with a lot of so-called Libertarians.....

[@royms2000]

The thing is Libertarianism always was nothing more than naive optimism masquerading as a political party. We would never have needed to make laws to begin with if everyone just did the right thing out of the goodness of their hearts.

[@kcsnipes]

Libertarians i suppose are different from libertarianism

[@AnonUser6309]

I was a libertarian as well, and then we had a pandemic, and half of our country refused to just wear a mask to protect their neighbors because "Fweedumb." We had an experiment that proved the libertarian claim that we don't need the government for people to do the right thing is objectively wrong

[@kwinland]

It wasn't because of "Freedom", it was because they were useless. It was known then, and it was proved true after.

[@ryanunruh2683]

I think this comment is objectively wrong, as though it's maker would be one of those who routinely says "trust the science"

[@alexcollins4482]

That’s what solidified me as a libertarian. You saw massive government overreach. They told me I couldn’t work or go to school. Also most of the mask people were wearing weren’t doing anything. So no I don’t want you to make decisions for me. Remember the people that run government are still people. Blind trust into anything is dumb.

[@mattimusmattrime]

​@@ryanunruh2683bad faith argument. Instead of debating the claim that humans are selfish as made by OP, you debate a claim they didn't make about "trusting the science". Be better.

[@1Dude2009]

Masks didn’t work, but f it, everyone needs to wear one to make you feel better. You aren’t a libertarian, you are an authoritarian.

[@kumar01234]

Just in case anyone forgot. When Penn and Teller had their show Bullshit, they did an episode on vaccines where they debunked a lot of what Jenny McCarthy said. So, never associate pen with the antivax movement

[@ExtremeSquared]

There are two definitions of "anti-vax" in common use, and really only one associated with a movement. The movement and the old definition was skeptical of vaccines that went through a full testing process and they latched onto conspiracy theories about side effects of proven vaccines. The more common new definition of "anti-vax" really has nothing to do with this movement.

[@prb2883]

I'd probably be smart to not associate people that are against mandated COVID vaccines with the "anit-vax movement"

[@ahansen9583]

To be fair, in that episode they simply plagiarized the talking points that had already been presented by vaccine developers and grant recipients. Not even Stanley Plotkin, who literally wrote the textbook on vaccines, was able to defend the dominant narrative under meticulous deposition… very disappointing. A rational person would have grave concerns about that outcome.

[@jerryd1000]

Unfortunately his support of vaccines and Fauci was total BULLSHIT. All the mandates from masks to 6 feet to get vaxxed and you won't get Covid or spread it has been shown to be lies. Yes he was stupid about the vaccine and still is. How many vaccines has he taken and given to his kids?

[@tomservo75]

He didn't sound antivax here. But he did say something interesting. The vaccine was invented in 3 days and then wonder why people don't trust it? Kind of answered his own question there. The vaccine has the effectiveness of something that was rushed together in 3 days.

[@AlucardsQuest]

This is it in a nutshell. The balance of your freedom verses doing what's right so as not to harm others. No seatbelt verses drunk driving. Not wearing a mask verses not wanting to spread a dangerous, new virus to those around you. Where is the consideration for others? Why are we so selfish? In places like Japan, they have no problem wearing masks if they don't feel well, because they respect other people. America had one of the highest death rates of covid in the world... is that what makes us great?

[@alexandermacneil4430]

Japan is a collectivist society and the US is an individualistic society. Their respective cultures are different when it comes to values, social norms, and expectations for behavior. Collectivist societies prioritize the group over the individual, while individualistic societies focus on individual rights and personal freedom. These fundamental differences shape everything from family dynamics to workplace behavior and communication styles.

[@JedRothwell]

@@alexandermacneil4430 Japan is not all that collectivist. They tend to be more Law of the Jungle types in my experience. (弱肉強食 - the strong eat the weak, as they say.) They often wear masks when they have a sore throat, for their own comfort. Masks are more hygienic than wool mufflers. On cold days they will offer you one when you leave their house after a visit. (Note that I translate Japanese so I know about these things.)

[@mikematull229]

You don't think it's selfish to "demand" others wear masks for your "piece of mind?"

[@alexandermacneil4430]

@@mikematull229 It's people like you who are the reasons why measles and other controlled & highly contagious diseases are making a come back. I truly hope yourself and your loved ones NEVER contract these all but eradicated diseases.

[@justanaverageguy912]

@@mikematull229ok, so 1. "peace of mind" 2. you call it "forcing others to wear a mask", but the thing is that if you go to the tube station and cough in the wrong direction, Janett (who works in accounting and is 6 years from retirement and finally will be able to move to the same state as her grandkids and is looking forward to finally have more time for her family) is going to fkn die bc she is 58 years old and has a minor congenital heart disease she isn't even aware of, bc it has so far gone undiagnosed. Do you want to demand Janett stays at home for the rest of her life, just bc just because you have the mindset of a toddler and have to go against everything anybody tells you to do as a knee-jerk reaction? do you want every person above the age of 45 to lock themselves in, bc they may have some undiagnosed risk factor? do you want people with risk factors to remain permanently locked in somewhere, just for your i don't even know what, it's not even peace of mind... what are you even losing when wearing a mask? your own ego, bc then you will have to admit someone else has a good piece of advice you didn't come up with first? gtfo with this 3yo oppositional defiant phase type 🤡

[@ravennewton7556]

The anti-drunk driver stance he took is key to debunking libertarian arguments. Essentially, if individuals are not responsible enough (or intellectually capable enough) to avoid behavior that jeopardizes the other people with whom they share this planet, the other people have three elementary responses: 1) People can unite to compel others to behave responsibly (government action) or, 2) respond individually (vigilantism), or, 3) do nothing and get massacred by all the idiots that are "free" to do whatever they want without any intervention. Vigilante behavior quickly deteriorates into gang warfare, tribalism, or similar settings of violence and retribution, and most folks refuse to go there for that reason. And, since most people refuse to idly let themselves and their families be exploited or massacred without opposition, the default option throughout most of human history has been the first option: government response. Of course, the nuances and complexity of government issues and functions is as limitless as human imagination and emotion, but that is what we ought to all be working towards bettering. Everything else is navel gazing.

[@TheToscanaMan]

well put

[@Peglegkickboxer]

Except who gets to decide what is good and bad and to what extent. We go through this constantly in every nation state in human history where definitions change and it always leads to abuse of power or corruption or war, etc. When you add the power to change definitions, you start to allow a government to dictate things, and over time, they always overreach. The best example is the Canada/UK charters vs the US constitution. The US mandates absolute free speech while the commonwealth nations leave it up to government discretion. It led to the government having police divisions that sit there and monitor social media for speech they dislike.

[@AbcDef-zf4gs]

He's a bigot.... plain and simple

[@NekoMMDGTS]

@@Peglegkickboxer The key is to making sure the government serves the people first.

[@jimfazio85]

@@Peglegkickboxer The US Constitution doesn't allow absolute free speech. There are constraints that the government can set, circumstantially. And there are very few constraints to how speech can be limited by private individuals and organizations.

[@mclartychannel]

I miss those days when libertarian was a synonym for leftist anarchist. Emma Goldman called herself a libertarian and she recognized that the power of economic elites in a "free market" was just as dangerous as the power of government, and that the two were closely linked. Noam Chomsky and others have called themselves libertarian socialists.

[@JK-br1mu]

Libertarianism and leftist beliefs are mostly incompatible. And supposed anarchists who defend various Marxist totalitarian states around the world are probably the most ludicrous people alive.

[@siopao_81]

100% this

[@EdwardLindon]

People just don't read anything. They think they're the proud inventors of ideas that have been circulating, in more mature and thought-through forms, for hundreds or thousands of years.

[@86damn86]

His way to describe libertarianism seems to best fit the description for healthy anarchism

[@Stewman109-gps]

I was a member of the Libertarian party for about 8 years prior to the pandemic. At that time, I noticed many people who identified as Libertarians refused to comply with the quarantine, mask, and ultimately vaccine mandates because they felt it was their personal right to not comply. They basically held the view that their wants and needs are the only thing that matters. Little did they consider the risk their choices were putting on others around them. Not complying with health and safety measures put others in danger, and these so-called Libertarians didn't seem to care. At that point, and because I agree 100% with Penn's perspective about caring for others and understanding how our individual choices can impact others, I left the Libertarian party to become an Independent.

[@earthwormandruw]

My body my choice.

[@AbcDef-zf4gs]

@@Stewman109-gps identify as a libertarians..... you do know you sound like am idiot

[@mike11h27]

Bye. 👋🏻

[@Stewman109-gps]

@@earthwormandruw It's only "your body your choice" if the decision you make regarding your own healthcare only impacts you. Those who refused to follow quarantine guidelines, who refused to get vaxxed etc. are not only putting themselves at risk, but risking the health and well-being of everyone around them. So it's not about individual choice when your choice affects everyone closest to you. The "my body my choice" argument only works for women when considering the issue of abortion. Getting an abortion doesn't hurt anyone around them or put anyone else at risk, therefore it is solely the choice of the individual woman.

[@immortan-valkyrie90]

Exactly what I felt, I was a member for 10yrs

[@stixx3969]

The fact is, in an emergency situation, a seat belt does help you keep the vehicle under control. Wear it.

[@kcsnipes]

That is a good reason, tho I’ve not seen that data and should not take a youtube commenter as truth it sounds logical

[@galacticgufus]

@DrumWild I'm sure that was a good special effects movie that you saw. Makes me want a police state just hearing about it.

[@jimbojones8978]

My reasoning to argue for wearing one is that you get less injured if you do, and that means less of a strain on emergency and health services. In Canada, our taxes help pay for it, so it makes sense to help reduce that cost. I imagine the idea in America would be what you mention plus wanting to not get as hurt. *shrugs*

[@helbent4]

I've never heard American libertarianism described as being about responsibility for others. Typically it's seen as focused on minimal government intervention in markets and personal lives; personal responsibility is crucial. You can feel responsible towards others if you like, that's your choice and your freedom, but by no means are you expected to. This makes me think he's actually more of an anarchist. Not in the cliche sense of anarchy being no government or rules, but it is about minimal government intervention (etc.) because you are expected to feel responsibility towards others and not need a government to compel this.

[@ThetaReactor]

I mean, "everybody helps everybody out without being coerced" is the ideal result of both anarchy and Marxism. I can sympathize with the idealist fantasy of libertarianism. If everybody just had good intentions and the presciense to anticipate the long-term effects of their actions, we'd all be completely free and perfectly responsible and we'd end war and hunger. That'll happen when we get assimilated by the Borg, or we wipe out like 90% of our population, whichever comes first.

[@jame254]

Penn has always been ancap on the economic sphere, and on the social sphere he is more of an agorist

[@KarlSnarks]

Yeah I'm glad this is top comment, was going to say something similar. Anarchists and other left-libertarians consider mutual aid and voluntary cooperative organizations as a big part of their worldview.

[@helbent4]

@@Chris-ot1ze You say I am confused... I do not think that word means what you think it means! I admit I was ignorant about a very, very obscure and almost extinct American way of political thinking. I have a few friends who call themselves libertarian (in the American sense). While not all of them are right-wingers I think it's fair to say if they are representative of how American libertarians are then they indeed left Jillette and others who think like them far behind.

[@helbent4]

@@Chris-ot1ze I followed his logic, and thought that concern for others at large and a respect for science was unusual for an American libertarian. You're not saying that's incorrect. Either way, I can see why his strain of American libertarianism has largely died out.

[@jimwalshonline9346]

I still embrace libertarian ideas, I just try to be pragmatic about it. In recent years, my priority has been to keep Trump out of office. That hasn't worked out so well...

[@ataraxia7439]

Always had so much respect for Penn. Even if I’ve often thought a lot of his views were kind out there and crazy, it’s clear he came to to them through honest reasoning and principles he cares about and I’ve always deeply admired the way he treats and talks about other people.

[@lindenstromberg6859]

Penn Jillette underestimated how many hoops people will jump through to avoid admitting they're terrified of needles.

[@andynystrom1519]

The weird thing is I have a friend who loves acupuncture but who is rabidly anti-vax. I don't doubt that what you describe is true for some but I suspect for others it's more "the government is always out to get you" (and for some it's both).

[@GNXClone]

I thought about libertarianism until I saw Ron Paul kissing up to Donald Trump. I will remain independent thank you.

[@chrischandler889]

What a fallacious reason. lol. If that is how you evaluate things, you're the issue.

[@TheMisterGuy]

@@chrischandler889 "What a fallacious reason." But he's sort of the de facto leader of that line of political thinking in this country. Or at least, he was.

[@chrischandler889]

@@TheMisterGuy Hes one of many. Many before and after him. Spooner, Stirner, Konkin, Bastiat, Freidman, Hayek, Mises, Hoppe, Rothbard, etc...

[@TheMisterGuy]

@@chrischandler889 Yeah definitely not the only one, but he and his son held office as republicans (I think his son still does), and he was a not-joke Republican primary candidate for president. He didn't get the nomination, and right-wing media denied him air time, but that's further than the others got.

[@GNXClone]

@@chrischandler889What am I an issue of exactly? Something wrong with being independent? And I misspoke, I meant Rand Paul. I don’t think Ron drank the MAGA kool aid like Rand did.

[@ered203]

"Why has government been instituted at all? Because the passions of men will not conform to the dictates of reason and justice, without constraint." - Alexander Hamilton

[@ahansen9583]

Lol, what did Hamilton think government is made of? “Government is instituted so that some men who have a passion to dictate conformity among man can do so without constraints, reason, or being subject to justice.” - Alexander Hamilton (paraphrased) The irony is astonishing, yet a superbly accurate description of “man” as government.

[@ered203]

@ParaousiaComingnowOnly a Sith thinks in absolutes. When Hamilton said that statement, he wasn't talking about wino's and prostitutes and street thieves, he was talking about those that were already powerful and desired more and more. . Government is SUPPOSED (I understand that this is wishful thinking, but we are speaking philosophically) to guard against absolute power. That is the "passions of men" about which he speaks. Hamilton warned (Federalist Paper No. 84) that the Bill of Rights didn't go far enough. . Proper government is supposed (there's that word again) to defend individual liberty against business interests, wealth, and social power. We don't need less government, we need more gov actually doing it's job. . There is a saying, "Regulations are written in blood". That is the blood of the people, not some pitiful owner crying about how hard it is to make more money and how they should be given Laissez-Faire to do whatever they want (which Jefferson wanted no matter what he wrote - his actions show his greed). If business and raw capitalism had its way, they would feed workers to the machine. Government is the only way to combat that level of power.

[@lrvogt1257]

@@ahansen9583: Democratic institutions are designed to work in the public interest. That is what The Constitution is about. Unrestrained capitalism is predatory and has always abused labor and despoiled the environment unless prevented by the public through democratically elected representatives.

[@mikevanroy9356]

​@@ered203They are winos and prostitutes and street thieves. They just dress better and speak in complete sentences (most of them anyway) so it's easier to fool you.

[@TheMisterGuy]

@@ahansen9583 "Lol, what did Hamilton think government is made of?" There are literally no other options. You WILL have a government, whether you like it or not. The idea is to implement one in such a way that it's extremely difficult (ideally, impossible) for people to behave in harmful ways. The idea is that power that exists whether we like it or not, and the ideal government controls that power in a safe way that benefits us all. Having it run by some magical force that's always morally good is not a possibility; we have to make a system that works with humans.

[@joshuascholar3220]

The word "Libertarian" originally meant a kind of left wing anti-authoritarian. That word was deliberately misrepresented and destroyed for the purpose of destroying what is now called anarchism since "libertarianism" is no longer available. See this quote: "One gratifying aspect of our rise to some prominence is that, for the first time in my memory, we, 'our side,' had captured a crucial word from the enemy. 'Libertarians' had long been simply a polite word for left-wing anarchists, that is for anti-private property anarchists, either of the communist or syndicalist variety. But now we had taken it over." - Rothbard, Murray

[@garyv2498]

Labels are such B.S.

[@casparhughey5651]

They lied again

[@roymarshall_]

Murray Rothbard was a great thinker and writer

[@Eric-tj3sg]

I am so glad Penn came around. The main logic of libertarianism seemed to me to be that 90% of people are good and will do the right thing and that the use of force to make them do it was wrong. I think 90% is extremely optimistic especially after the '24 election, but even if true, laws, enforcement and mandates are still needed for the other 10% . Let alone the 1% of seriously messed up sociopaths.

[@NekoMouser]

I've always respected Penn and it is interesting to see him arriving at the same sorts of conclusions about Libertarians that I arrived at following 9/11. I was also a dues-paying Libertarian in the 90s, and I always knew the party had it's share of...that...whatever you want to call it. That selfish contingent. And I had to move away from it all after 9/11 happened and that contingent and paranoia started taking over the party. I still think I start with a (small "l") libertarian philosophy now-and like Penn I wish that so many things didn't have to be laws or rules because people could have the freedom to choose, but obviously there's only one real choice to make (like wearing a mask in a pandemic)-but I've spent 20 years realizing that people just aren't like that. Half will choose the right thing, will think of their neighbors, will try to lessen conflict and look at the world optimistically...but half won't. They just won't. And that's why we ultimately need far more rules that I ideally would like to have. For every person only taking one slice at the pizza party just in case there might not be enough to go around, there's someone else yelling "Eff y'all, I gots mine!" and grabbing up half-a-dozen slices for the same reason.

[@joansparky4439]

Good, u realized the most basic natural law there is for life - 'survival of the fittest individual by any means available and at the cost of others if opportune'. Now what?

[@mahna_mahna]

Just saw this, and boy do I feel like Penn must be having a rough time this week.

[@Botryoidal_Bracteole]

What Jillette is describing is anarchism. A radically voluntary society driven by mutual aid.

[@JunkyardBashSteve]

I think mankind's greatest accomplishment was the free refill at restaurants but that's just me

[@varun009]

No. Sugar is highly addictive and damaging to your body. It's destroying Americans.

[@redonk1740]

I mean.... you're not wrong. I'd argue that agriculture is literally the greatest accomplishment of mankind. The entire reason for that being readily available sustinance for a population. I'd say free refills falls into that category.

[@AdamGarbunkle]

@@redonk1740 Wrong. Free refills and all-you-can-eat buffets are mankinds all-time greatest achievements and will NEVER be topped.

[@miguelthealpaca8971]

I say we need to go further than just free refills, but I'm not gonna get everyone to agree with me.

[@chrischandler889]

@@redonk1740 Mass agriculture may be directly and indirectly responsible for climate change. lol. Pros and cons.

[@UniversalistSon9]

He’s got a good point, anarchism or libertarianism won’t work if we don’t work together

[@schmetterling4477]

Neither anarchism not libertarianism are designed to work. They are designed to work for a very small class of select individuals who feel special about themselves. Some of us call these people "psychopaths". ;-)

[@ScandinavianHeretic]

@@schmetterling4477 I'm so glad I'm a psychopath to someone like you.

[@mikevanroy9356]

And to work together requires a strong central government?

[@UniversalistSon9]

@@mikevanroy9356 no

[@UniversalistSon9]

@@schmetterling4477 ugh🙄

[@NFLed]

Interesting perspective. I've never associated libertarianism with taking care of others, quite the opposite. When I hear someone say that people should not be required to do something which benefits others, I have always interpreted that to mean that they don't prioritize caring about others. I see, though, that it can also mean optimism that people are good and will take care of others without being required by the government to do it. I very much disagree with that optimism in general, because too many people are just awful, although each situation is different.

[@chrischandler889]

Its literally only "Do not force others or use coercion on others to take care of others". That says absolutley nothing about not taking care of others. Im very libertarian. Basically an anarchist and I'm all about mutual aid and helping others. I'd never hold a gun to another's head to do it. Also if people are generally that bad, putting some of the worse among us in extreme positions of power is nutty. No wonder government killed apx 442,000,000 people in the 20th century alone. I wonder if governments will beat that record this century? If you doubt my numbers here is a breakdown. 262,000,000 in acts of democde. 120,000,000 military casulties of war. 60 million civilian casulties of war. The civilian casulties is often estimated higher. I went with the conservative numbers. I wont list all the links. Its easy to look up the war casulties but heres the democide ones: Its an academic study done by the University of Hawaii. www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM

[@Proud_Troll]

I'm a libertarian not necessarily because I'm optimistic about the efficiency of a free and unregulated people (although I am), but because I'm incredibly pessimistic about the competence of government.

[@Sammie551]

Why are you pessimistic about their competence though, give an example

[@chris135x]

@@Sammie551 ......Anything the government does.........Literally anything. How can I give an example when the examples are happening every day? You can see it on the news. It's everywhere.

[@Sammie551]

@@chris135x no I don't

[@PhrontDoor]

Government IS people. It's not that gov't is incompetent - it's that people are incompetent. There has never been a 'free-market' and whenever regulations have been relaxed or non-existent with respect to any form of action, it's absolutely led to people abusing that to the complete detriment of others.

[@mikevanroy9356]

​@PhrontDoor Let's say you're right. You still have incompetent people running the government. You can't just snap your fingers and find the competent ones.

[@LanceCSTCuddy]

I first met Penn in roughly 2006 at the Houdini seance in Las Vegas. He was extremely kind and generous with his time. Teller wouldn’t stop talking about the project he was working on, and I, over the next few years, grew to really respect them both. This is the Penn I know. This is 100% him being Penn, and following his moral compass. I respect that, very much.

[@Bobblawlaw1]

I’m sure you know him so well based on a meeting. Must mean the world to penn.

[@MichaelJPartyka]

This feels like someone who spent years sloganeering, "No one's coming to save you," finally got a taste of what "No one's coming to save you" feels like.

[@sparkyfister]

How am i just coming across this in 2024?

[@davidranney8723]

I'm not too familiar with libertarianism, but I've always thought of it as a fiercely individualist movement. Lots of "I've got mine, you get yours." I wonder what led him to believe that it was about "responsibility for others."

[@dfrankrobinson9454]

So what does Penn think now in 2024?

[@Randgalf]

It's obvious he doesn't think at all these days.

[@AbcDef-zf4gs]

Whatever he can make bank on.... he is a grifter

[@Seth9809]

When grifters?

[@thomasbest8599]

@@AbcDef-zf4gsnot as good as Sump pump Trump 🇺🇦

[@natbarmore]

It doesn’t exactly map to the “right-left” we usually think of, but it sounds like Penn is basically a left-libertarian. The US Libertarian Party is very much a right-libertarian party. And the reason I’ve never had any interest in libertarianism, not much respect for self-proclaimed libertarians was precisely because my only exposure was via the US Libertarian Party. I only recently found out - coincidentally about the same time this video was released - that not all libertarians agreed with the US Libertarian Party. And that some, like Penn, want libertarianism in order to build society, not so they can escape any social responsibilities.

[@jamesmcpherson1590]

I have pretty much always been skeptical of Libertarianism for the simple reason that I have seen what companies will do for profit when no one prevents them from it. For-profit prison companies that pay off judges to impose longer sentences, chemical companies dumping toxic waste into rivers that provide drinking water, and car companies deciding that it's cheaper to settle lawsuits when people are burned alive in their vehicles, than it is to fix the gas tanks responsible for the most horrible fiery deaths imaginable. I desperately wish we could trust our fellow humans to do the right thing, but a clear-eyed look at the data shows they will far more often do the thing they perceive to be in their own selfish interests. Few things in history have put a larger exclamation point on that than Tuesday's catastrophic failure of American decency. People absolutely suck!

[@antediluvianatheist5262]

'I'm responsible for others' Yeah, dude, that's NOT libertarianism. Libertarian is 'i got mine, leave me alone!' Penn's description is closer to socialism.

[@Ocker3]

When you're voluntarily responsible for others and act out of compassion for them, not because you're required to, that's not technically socialism. Libertarianism, like Communism and many other 'pure' ideologies fail to account for human nature, so

[@givepeaceachance940]

Did you listen to anything he said? He said voluntarily helping other people is not against libertarian principles. So, in other words, libertarians shouldn’t necessarily be against things like laws against drunk driving (that help everyone)

[@DoctorApotheosis]

Penn's version of libertarianism has always been romantic and optimistic. And I actually love him for it. He made me consider it for a long time. But it is a fairy tale. And in our society it is a siren call to those that simple do not care about their fellow American.

[@surreallife777]

The sign of a mature individual is to be able to modify or abandon strong held beliefs that he or she held and be OK with it. Michael Pantazis

[@jamesrobertson9597]

It's a tragedy that many people, during the most productive years of their lives (maybe late 20's to mid 50s?), have a tendency to become incredibly selfish. They begin to think they did it all on their own, they don't need anybody's help, and they shouldn't have to pay taxes. Even people who, in reality, aren't very successful can fall into this way of thinking.

[@sashatagger3858]

I have almost his entire set of his old show Bullshit, on DVDs. His idea of ‘libertarianism’ as ‘responsibility for others’ was not what I ever heard or saw during any of the episodes.

[@wednesdayschild3627]

Did you see his vaccine videos, or his subsidy videos? I respectfully disagree with you.

[@sashatagger3858]

@@wednesdayschild3627 I’m talking about his dvds which were released years ago which had nothing about vaccines

[@laurencewhite4809]

@@sashatagger3858 Yes, they had a whole episode on vaccines and how stupid the anti-vaccine movement is.

[@sashatagger3858]

@@laurencewhite4809 your right that episode is from 2010 not from the vintage collection of which I own many copies of. I notice it’s mostly about autism and the vaccines. Not mRNA vaccines and COVID or anything related to that. It’s also their last episode it seems. And again I’m not surprised that it perhaps is a more recent episode because Penn has jumped the shark and descended (in much the same way Mr Sam Harris has in to intellectual lunacy) after contracting another type of virus, Trump derangement syndrome. Voting Democrat in the last two elections, abandoning pretty much something to the effect of 90% of his life espousing true libertarian principles and values. No other libertarian or serious thinker I’ve seen besides the other person just mentioned has done this sort of bizarre and betrayal of years of long held beliefs because of his dislike of just one man. Doing a complete change in his thinking and politics surrounding basically everything, because of Trump. That’s not the behaviour of the serious thinker I grew up to know and admire. It looks almost like sadly someone has lost their marbles.

[@Bringadingus]

@@sashatagger3858 They did an entire episode on how miraculous vaccines are and how horrible anti-vaccine movements are.

[@steviethai]

3 days, really, My friend worked on that for months 7 days a week, 12-15hrs a day, and DT did not help, this was an international endeavour

[@AmongGangstas]

The Libertarian party has lost their minds. I was once a proud member, and debated and OWNED Libs/Conservatives in debates.

[@sawtooth808]

Yep, they have devolved into “We will not fund infrastructure like road repairs, A jet pack for every household” When someone like Gary Johnson is booed for saying drivers should have a license 🪪 to drive,it’s, uhh telling

[@casusbelli9225]

>debated and OWNED You are part of the reason why they lost their minds, you fool. The moment you saw the debate and went "oh i need to OWN THEM" was the moment you fucked up.

[@Seth9809]

A lot of far right types these days

[@haywardmills]

Off topic; but that's one of the best paintings I've seen in the background of a video call.

[@johngalardi]

So Penn Jellette’s stance is that not forcing people to do something is good… as long as they agree with you, and are going to do that thing you were going to force them to do anyway. That’s a perverted idea of freedom.

[@TheKingOfToast]

His stance was "if you give people the choice, they'll choose the right thing" Now he acknowledges that people are too stupid and selfish to choose to do the right thing.

[@johndowe6161]

No, he''s not opposed to people deciding differently. You can say "hey guys, please do this" while still advocating that the government not mandate it.

[@rgemail]

Speaking of a "perverted" idea of Freedom; yours is one you will never have. If society or government disallows you from freely doing *anything*, you'll cry that you dont have "Freedom". Maybe try an ideology that requires you to think through problems, instead of short circuiting your brain with emotional buzzwords.

[@andrewcullen7671]

So few libertarians have the self-awareness to evaluate themselves and their party on this level. This is why he's optimistic: he thought everyone had the same wherewithal as he has, and he found out they don't.

[@tylorryn4163]

He’s correct and all the infantile people in the comments are proving him right.

[@angelozachos8777]

Don’t take the comments section so personally … Instead , worry about you and your children being ‘up-to-date’ with the BOOSTERS 💉

[@anneonymouse4757]

I'm glad to hear this... I had assumed that he was in with the cynical and selfish side of libertarianism... glad to hear it's not the case.

[@dr4782]

Graduating from clown college has finally paid off for Penn Jillette. Congratulations to him.

[@truegodaries]

yea college brainwashed him LMAO. look at articles from 2016 about penn jillete on trump. he loved the guy. now these articles from like 2019 and on are about him bashing the very same guy. "paid off". your thinking is a disease to the country I call home.

[@chriscosby2459]

Penn is clueless.

[@andrewholliday251]

I think you mean 'Penn was clueless.' But he kept thinking. Try it.@@chriscosby2459

[@rgi9509]

He who never changes his mind never changes anything.

[@FifthConcerto]

I think that if you are unapologetic in your beliefs as a libertarian, you agree with everything Penn just said. What seems to have happened, is some libertarians forgot to hold on to their principles, or did not really have internally consistent principals to begin with, and got sucked into the Ron DeSantis mentality of reflexively doing the opposite of the thing you hate most. For example, "I hate mandates on X. Therefore, I think there should be mandates against mandates-on-X." That backwards logic is DeSantis's path to authoritarianism. And in these few cases, that same backwards logic to authoritarianism gripped some libertarians who listened to anger, told themselves it was reason, and were too angry to see that reason was not the main driver. Libertarianism is still fine. Classical Liberalism is still fine. Neither of those concepts has gone anywhere. What has changed is that Penn Jillette used to be the loudest, most obnoxious libertarian out there, and that drove Bullshit, and that was great. Now, the loudest, most obnoxious libertarians are folks who watched Bullshit, took the faux anger and made it real, and took too much of the reason and logic that actually made the show work, and left it behind.

[@schmetterling4477]

The only libertarian principle was always "Me! Me! Me! Me! Me! Me!...". It's the temper tantrum of the eternal three year old who doesn't have enough blood sugar. :-)

[@aaronm_miner_author]

The thing is, the word "libertarian" used to refer to anarchism, a left-wing movement, and carries that same meaning in most of the world today. American right-wing "libertarianism" is really a bastardization of mutualism, which is the first formalized form of anarchism in the West and is one of the earliest forms of *socialism* expressed in that same tradition. While it advocated for a "free market" of sorts, it emphasized worker ownership of the means of production and is famous for an incisive critique of property which is, functionally, not all that different from (anarcho-)communism. I think Penn Jillette might find that his values are more robustly reflected and expressed in anarchism, which in all its forms emphasizes mutual aid, human solidarity, and a distaste for hierarchy that is obviously absent in self-styled "libertarians" of the modern day.

[@elbownio5820]

Penn sounds like he would find more agreement with socialist Anarchist philosophy, which I'd argue is more libertarian than the clusterfuck of "individualist rightwing libertarianism" which only leads to feudalism

[@kirktown2046]

The more I see how the sausage is made and study history, the more I think these "alternative political philosophies" are utter nonsense. Granted, my family survived the CCCP, so we understand what "socialist" experiments become in practice. Why is everyone who isn't an economist or systems analyst convinced that the modern global mixed economy isn't going to be the vehicle to the next better version of our economy? There's no invention we could "replace" our current system with that will magically solve ~any~ of our problems.

[@zoranblackie5921]

Feels familiar, as being libertarian to me was individual rights with social responsibility - I now prefer to describe myself as a humanist

[@meanunclebob1819]

I have never even heard of that definition/description of "libertarian". The only one I've encountered is the not caring about anyone else/libertine/DON'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO YOU BIG POOPYHEAD! one.

[@Hexon66]

Most reasonable people can shake of the libertarian instinct by their mid-20s, when they exist in the real world for a while. I'll let off the precocious high schoolers, and slightly less so the university students, because there is some degree of high-minded idealism in it. But after that, it's nothing more than Otto's (Fish Called Wanda) view of buddhism "Every man for himself".

[@mikevanroy7505]

What part of the government lying or being incompetent did Penn forget?

[@itmeurdad]

Libertarianism is about more than irrational fear and hatred for things you don't fully understand, mike.

[@mikevanroy9356]

​@itmeurdad Yes and many libertarians showed they don't actually understand libertarianism.

[@VividFilmProductions]

Penn just doesn’t want to get accused of being a “white supremacist”. Lots of people denounced classical liberalism/libertarian thought when being a progressive leftist became in vogue

[@dr4782]

Most of it, apparently.

[@JohnSmith-pn1vv]

bruh, they made a vaccine IN 3 DAYS!!

[@OldManBrodie]

"Pathological optimism" is not how anyone has envisioned libertarianism, ever. His view of what libertarianism is, is so skewed. I don't know how he got it so wrong.

[@alangagnon5203]

If you ignore centuries of human history and become arrogant enough to believe that human nature has fundamentally changed then you can be foolishly optimistic.

[@willbrink]

I'm a cynical Libertarian! :)

[@jordandale85]

I think most of us are. Or maybe I'm just projecting.

[@tehehe5929]

@@jordandale85 I'm cynic and that is why I'm libertarian.

[@AbcDef-zf4gs]

What a stupid two words put together, you put two random words together and thought you were smart.... that's libertarians

[@captainufo4587]

Libertarianism ALWAYS fails because it thinks of freedom as this black and white fairytale thing, sort of like how a child would approach concepts. There's no such thing as unlimited freedom, not unless you are the only one living on the planet. The moment you have a neighbor, unlimited freedom stops for both. Your freedom to listen to your favorite song however loud you like it clashes with their freedom to have silence and be able to sleep at night. Society, since its inception, has always been an exercise in deciding where one's freedom ends to accomodate somene else's. Libertarians belong to two categories: those who fail to understand these concepts and still think it's possible for two people to both eat the same cake in its entirety, and those who think that freedom applies to them and not everybody else.

[@mckymcobvious3043]

responsibility for others?? not "f u, got mine!"??

[@Alverant]

Libertarians seem to refuse to acknowledge the responsibility they have for others while enjoying the benefits of systems that are responsible to them. Libertarians will drink tap water and demand it be free of pollution, but refuse to hold businesses accountable for polluting that water in the first place.

[@ironhed515]

Penn Jilette is all about freedom of choice, just until you choose to do the things he doesn't like. 👍

[@cannedfrootloops7803]

He's just more mature than you. Accept when someone changes their opinions. What of the many Republicans that become switch to Libertarians, then?

[@tylorryn4163]

What you’re saying comes off a little like infantilism.

[@cameronf.4119]

Aside from genuine anarchists, this is how everyone views society. Do you envy a society in which everyone is permitted to do literally anything including the most heinous acts of crime? If not, then you second this sentiment.

[@ironhed515]

@@cameronf.4119There is no "permitted" in anarchy. There is only what you think you can get away with. If there's anarchy and you do something violent enough odds are someone is going to harm you as a consequence so good luck with that. Nobody's gonna do anything if you just don't wear a mask. You need big govt and boys in blue to enforce laws against non violent crimes.

[@sweetnumb]

Actually he's just all about freedom of choice. What delusion led you to say that last bit?

[@mihilist]

I've always respected Penn because from any perspective or point of view it was coming with some form of empathy and intellectual curiosity. This only makes me respect him more.

[@VolkColopatrion]

well caring about other people is simply emotional blackmail thes days. " I saw people using that same word, ‘libertarian,’ to mean ‘I don’t care about other people.’” " this is because too many people. weaponize compassion.

[@shionyr]

The problem is a lot of Libertarians present a pretty hostile and individuated outward face. Giant "Protected by 2nd Amendment" and "private property" signs plastered all over 7-foot barbed wire fence. Those don't exactly scream "I care deeply for the health of my community and fellow man, and believe this care should be administered to and by to the community by all its members rather than the government"

[@lornenoland8098]

Skepticism is asking real questions Cynicism is refusing to accept real answers

[@gorskon]

Sorry, Penn. Libertarianism has always been about this. You’re a victim of the proverbial no true Scotsman fallacy.

[@fxlkpunkrapper]

i thinn Penn would find a lot of peace in being an Anarchist

[@hawksm2783]

100% agree with Penn here. I was a Libertarian around that time and was starting to see a lot of the flaws in it but the whole mask drama was just the final nail in the coffin precisely because of the reason he described. They weren't advocating to just not have a mask mandate and to wear it voluntarily instead, but rather they just simply didn't want to be told what to do. It just showed how weak the ideology is when it comes to handling a variety of political situations, and, as Penn said, how little a lot of them cared about other people.

[@johnnynick3621]

Back then I asked my doctor whether wearing a mask would help stop the spread of the virus. He explained to me that the virus, including the water droplet holding it, was so small, and the pores on a face mask were so large in comparison, that trying to stop the spread of the virus using a mask was like trying to stop mosquitoes from invading your yard by installing a really high chain-link fence. The only way a mask would stop the virus was to make it so dense that you could NOT breathe through it. We would all need to carry oxygen tanks around. Yeah, you and Penn were good little sheeple. You did exactly as you were told. You proved you cared for other people. Can't wait to see how high you can jump next time they tell you to.

[@hawksm2783]

@@johnnynick3621 No I disagree. Do some droplets escape the masks? Yea of course. They aren't 100% effective, and efficacy can depend on mask type. But does it block a lot of the bigger droplets? Yes, most definitely. You don't have to take my word for it. There are plenty of studies and visual simulations that clearly show they prevent the spread and block a lot of droplets from escaping. Hell, we don't even have to go that far. Just ask yourself whether you would want someone to sneeze in you face with them wearing a mask or without them wearing a mask. The answer to that is obvious, and the reason for that answer is also obvious, because it blocks bigger droplets from landing on you. This is the same reason why doctors wear masks when performing surgeries or when patients have highly transmissable diseases.

[@markanderson100]

​@@johnnynick3621All evidence is overwhelmingly in favour of masking reducing the risk of spread. But I'm pretty sure your story about "my [your] doctor" is made up. Either that, or your doctor is actually ignorant and an anti-masker himself.

[@JohnSmith-pn1vv]

'just simply didn't want to be told what to do.' Yeah that's a fundamemental tenet of the ideology, you were clearly never a libertarian but heard something that sounded good and labeled yourself as such. Now you've heard something else and you follow that blindly too even though they are diametrically opposed. In short, you are a suggestible follower.

[@shionyr]

Right there with you - I identified as libertarian until recently. People who habitually do the opposite of what they're told are just as controlled as the "sheeple" they claim to be smarter than. It's like they never emotionally actuated out of throwing tantrums when their parents made them do less-than-fun things, and have turned it into a political ideology in adulthood. I get that vibe from the Mises leadership, and it's disappointing that they're steering the party in a certain "anti-woke" direction and taking a stronger stance supporting extreme States' rights (which FYI are also governments capable of tyranny). I guess to pull in frustrated far-right voters from the Republican Party? Reminds me of an old neighbor who just let trash pile up in their yard because they didn't want a government telling them what to do with it. Place was a rat farm with a tiny walkway between rusty metal and oily mud. Pathetic.

[@cloud2018]

Libertarians died for me when I found I didn't need dig very far to find some very uncomfortable conversations regarding the age of consent. Nope. Want NOTHING to do with that.

[@VonDelacroix]

But you see, that was exactly why I didn't get it. It was developed in 3 god damned days, then rushed through approval. It hadn't been properly tested, and the coof had a kill rate of roughly .5% at the time, if memory serves, and even better survival rates in my age group. Do I take an experimental shot, or gamble on the .5? the choice was pretty clear.

[@Seth9809]

Then why was there months of testing and almost a year between the illness hitting the states, and the vaccine?

[@Seth9809]

A year isn't three days buddy.

[@maxwellschmidt235]

I was a libertarian once. If I were to describe my utopia, it still would probably be the libertarian one. The problem with applying it to the world as we find it is that there are people starting with vastly greater economic power than others, a situation which can only get worse fiven that return on capital far outstrips return on labor.

[@sirlawrencet]

Sure the guy who said airport security was a violation of the 4th amendment now makes the argument that forcing people to wear ineffective masks is necessary for the public good and he's not a hypocrite.

[@meganwhite7330]

He did not make an argument for mandatory masks. His turning point was about people assuming he was anti mask. Anti mandate is about you looking at the current facts and making your own decision. In the beginning, thinking of the people around me, using the facts I had at the time, I decided for myself and the people around me that masks and the vaccine was the responsible choice for me to make. Everyone else should have also had the freedom to determine for themselves what the best course of action was.

[@johnnynick3621]

@@toby2581 GREAT POINT Toby!

[@toddroper7944]

@@meganwhite7330 So you did not do much research, you probably listened to the news or a doctor that was afraid of losing his license. There was ample evidence that masking would have no effect on the trajectory of the virus. The vaccine was a fool's errand and something Fauci had advocated against prior to Covid. This is why we don't have a cold virus shot. The mutations are too rapid so the vaccine becomes ineffective before it can be administered to the population.

[@JohnSmith-pn1vv]

@@toby2581 Yesssirrr

[@Caxel108]

Actually he said people SHOULDN'T be forced to wear masks, but people SHOULD do it to benefit others. He made the stance that it should your choice. Think of him as pro choice when it comes to the mask and vaccines. This is a libertarian point of you: it's your choice. He's basically using herd theory.

[@leslietrenton8914]

Original libertarianism is progressive with old roots in socialism, like social anarchism, syndicalism, mutualism, etc. It's just that in the 1950-60s it was appropriated by the right in the US, to mean a 'me first lassez faire capitalism', which many Americans assume is the original one.

[@wednesdayschild3627]

He and I follow the same trajectory. Someone called me and wanted me to be against any affordable housing. I am a religios person. The worst for me was to see people not listen to faith leaders who told them to take care of their fellow men.

[@o_ss]

Depends on whos paying otherwise you are impeding on someone else's liberty

[@ChrisBakerauthor]

How much do you do to take care of "your fellow men"?

[@oneandy2]

The biggest obstacle to affordable housing is government intervention in the market.

[@matthewgray659]

If you're religious then penn thanks! You're delusional

[@Proud_Troll]

This isn't about compassion, this is about the reality of it. Every single time the government gets its nose into the economy, things shatter. EVERY SINGLE TIME WITHOUT EXCEPTION. Almost every time you remove government from a field, the free market takes over and improves it drastically.

[@pgbollwerk]

If you care about human well being, the evidence seems clear that countries with Democrat Socialism / Social Democracies have the best actual outcomes for human well being. For example, the Nordic countries.

[@joshybrisby]

I left libertarianism as I became more empathetic. Conservatives and libertarians in general lack empathy for others. There are exceptions, but generally speaking the above is true.

[@jojorider2]

Bullshit. Libertarianism and conservatism has nothing to do with empathy. It's the left's solutions to those problems that are the difference. And the solutions to those problems seem more like enabling, is where the true difference is.

[@danielzhender660]

I used to consider myself a libertarian, but I eventually decided I should look into whether these welfare programs I claimed were bad actually helped people and then I found out that the real world data didn't really support my world view as much as I had assumed, so I changed my view. It seems like a Iot of libertarians repeat an idea of what they BELIEVE should happen based on models which don't match up to real world data.

[@johnnynick3621]

@@danielzhender660 So your NEW worldview permits the enslavement of the most productive, the highest achievers, the creators of all that benefits mankind - to the wants and needs of the highest number of needy people. Got it. Who says we get smarter as we age. Here's contrary proof.

[@toddroper7944]

Because there is empathy in political discourse so that is an asinine statement. You are not empathetic if you advocate for a violent state enforcing arbitrary laws.

[@toddroper7944]

@@danielzhender660 The welfare programs are disastrous failures. Poverty has increased with welfare programs so they just steal from the population to give bureaucrats jobs. What evidence you found that refutes this should be highly questioned, I imagine it originated with some government entity.

[@PenneySounds]

There is a difference between optimism and naivety. Believing that pandemic precautions could be taken voluntarily by everyone, and that there wouldn't need to be rules in place to ensure that everyone complies and some individuals don't put everyone else at risk, is simply naivety. Yes, I would love to live in a world where everyone would just do these things because it makes sense, without being told, and it wouldn't be necessary to have rules and penalties. But that's not the world we live in.

[@godless1014]

I am not AT ALL optimistic about the decency and responsibility of my fellow chimps, but I am STILL a Libertarian (although I don't use the label) because I believe it is essentially wrong to use force and coercion to compel another free human.

[@ash_yt0]

You're not free to play a game of chess unless you first agree with the other person to collaborate in obeying the rules of the pieces, such that the game can operate. The only true libertarianism is to not play at all, in which case you'd be outside of society. The biggest issue in the world IMO, is not that the rules exist, but rather that the rules are enforced by those who are ensuring such rules are stacked in their favour, rigging the game. Libertarianism isn''t the answer to that, accountability and transparency is (although it's very hard and will take a long time to shift society in that direction, especially with traditionalists and conservatives vociferously defending the status quo.) Libertarianism is the opposite of accountability, and is no solution. Also please do not cut me down with the Masamune, oh great Sephiroth.

[@RussellDavies-m1o]

Guess most of the idiots who stormed the capitol would call themselves libertarians, ironic , they were certainly trying to force an agenda and coerce an outcome on a free voting public.

[@otherwords1375]

What do you make of the social contractarian foundations of government, though? According to that line of analysis, it's not that the state forces anyone to do anything, unconditionally; rather, it's that each citizen makes the conscious *choice* to live under state power, in order to enjoy the various advantages it confers (public infrastructure, policing of property rights, etc), and agrees to certain sacrifices in return. Force and coercion would be horrific, undoubtedly, if government wasn't predicated upon the consent of the governed. But it is. Anyone who opposes the exchange I've described -- narrowly limiting certain liberties in exchange for protection, welfare, etc -- is free to opt out of the social contract: they can renounce citizenship and either emigrate to a different state or agree to be stateless altogether.

[@fluffy7bunny]

every time I watch one of Penn's videos, I'm suddenly reminded how smart and eloquent this guy is.

[@Ronin969]

Masks: proven ineffective to the point of uselessness. Miracle vaccine: Proven ineffective at everything it was promised, as facts, to do. "they came up with that vaccine* in 3 days!" and this skeptic was all praise and no questions??? Not even when announced that big pharma would have immunity from lawsuits and no liability for the lifetime of everyone alive? Thats embarrassing, that he was so dead wrong and that reminds you how smart he is. Dude was scared and listening to the wrong people.

[@firstlast9916]

Ick. Get a room please.

[@NewAgeGigolo]

was

[@Robert-xk9no]

​@@NewAgeGigolo"was" meaning he didn't go down the same rabbit hole as you

[@NewAgeGigolo]

@@Robert-xk9no Really? So just state for the record that you, like ‘libertarian’ Penn, support law-enforcement with guns forcing human beings to put experimental chemicals in their body. Just say it. So we are now all clear where you stand. SAY IT.

[@teds9896]

Problem is there are "reseting points" in history where the playing field is made a lot more level. Ex: think of WW1 then the Depression and WW2 that those Boomer kiddies in USA "Factory to the World" the wealthy were gutted, and they were born on 3rd base later thought they'd hit a homer. It was a great time to be working class in America as well to strike it rich if one had the ambitions. However, by the 1960s the cracks were already beginning to show in the system. And the problem is, when everyone's roughly the same size fish, it can be pretty good. But if you're born in a more advanced economy, there are big fish lurking just for the opportunity to eat you alive. If you don't have a government that can occasionally watch out for the little guys, you're screwed. It's the same thing after a forest fire: it all burns down, those seeds in the soil bed then have a field day and reach for sky in full sun and great nutrients. But as a forest grows older, those giant trees produce more and more seeds but nearly all those seeds die. However, the very best conditions for trees are in older growth when one of the giants dies, it produces a clearing, there's water in the forest as well nutrients from that old tree's death, BUT that opportunity is very rare to occur & also is dependent on death/input from one of the "bigs". Most seeds die in those old growth forests, BUT if/when the fire comes again, it's those seeds dropped in the few years prior, that got buried just enough in the soil, that hit the lottery. Evolution still applies, ex: this or that tree that can grow a little taller, photosynthesize sunlight into sugar just a little better, has flower nectar and/or fruits that taste better to pollination insects and/or animals, etc. they pass on their genes, and yet so much of the whole game is dumb luck of the draw. Graduate with your Masters' Degree in 2008 oh look, they're firing all kinds of people and unlike them you have no experience; you're begging to work at Applebee's you have an insane amount of student debt and you've never worked a single "career" day in your life.

[@Bardineer]

"They developed vaccine in 3 days..." To believe that requires pathological optimism.

[@mikevanroy9356]

3 days is about right if you only test it on mice. You know, like the last couple boosters.

[@mikeellement1567]

Doesn't mean they didn't test it for almost a year before allowing the public to use it.

[@Bardineer]

@mikeellement1567 It also ignores the fact that they were building off of studies from decades earlier...which is what I was hinting at with my original comment. Had that information not been readily available, the timeline would have looked very different.

[@ProHumanity]

@@Bardineer Penn was just being hyperbolic.

[@Bardineer]

@@ProHumanity Good for him. My point stands.

[@joshwwarren]

That's why I was really attracted to libertarianism until I figured out I was the only responsible one. Same issue with the GOP. No government basically means letting lots of people die. The only time my libertarian friends post anything it's that they want to be stupid but the government or society is trying to stop them.

[@leifanderson3487]

From about 15 to 21, I was a small government libertarian. (partially because of penn and his show) What made me stop being a small government libertarian, besides the realization that companies are governments within themselves, was the extreme apathy libertarians had towards the sick and injured. 2008 was an interesting year. It seems Penn experienced my 2008 in 2020.

[@RM-jb2bv]

Massive government really cares about the sick and injured. That’s why healthcare costs have skyrocketed.

[@Highbrowser]

@@RM-jb2bv No, because the healthcare companies are still greedy, and people like you fight to keep them free to indulge that greed at everybody else's expense.

[@CrazyHorseInvincible]

@@RM-jb2bv The problem with whataboutism is that it accepts the statement it's attempting to counter. Saying that massive government is apathetic to the sick and injured does not refute the claim that libertarians are apathetic to the sick and injured. Both can be true at the same time. Your statement ultimately implies that you think both claims are true.

[@johnnynick6179]

So let me get this straight, Leif..... You care so very deeply for the sick and injured that you want to take money away from those who earned it.... by FORCE.... with the threat of prison.... so that somebody else can help those who are sick and injured. Is that REALLY your moral position? You want to FORCE people to do with their life's blood what YOU consider more important than what they want to use it for? That's your morality? Why not just use FORCE... and the threat of prison to make doctors and nurses help the sick and injured for free? Why not use FORCE against the scientists to work longer hours until they come up with a cure for every disease? Perhaps you should FORCE people with two healthy kidneys to "donate" one to those who are in need. Wow. That's a lot of FORCE. And you claim you were once a Libertarian.... a believer in freedom and liberty. You were much smarter when you were 15 and you believed you had a right to live your own life and did NOT deserve to be a slave to everyone else.

[@CrazyHorseInvincible]

@@johnnynick6179 If you put the word force in all caps it becomes evil.

[@murdockscott]

When I was a kid, I remember thinking that libertarians were well reasoned people who made some good points. Something shifted wildly with that group. I am glad to see that Penn Jillette is someone I can still respect.

[@andrewpyrah]

So he went from misunderstanding liberty to misunderstanding liberty.

[@schmetterling4477]

He simply grew up. You are clearly not there, yet. ;-)

[@MrMyers758]

He went from understanding that humans had the capacity to operate humanely, compassionately and cooperatively without enforcement from state, to also understanding how humans had the capacity to operate mindlessly, cruelly and selfishly just out of spite of an authority. He assumed that people would choose to wear masks because it was the advice given by those who are experts on the topic, but instead large swathes of them refused to do it BECAUSE they were advised to do it by experts, out of some weird teenage reversal mentality, which forced the state to step in and legislate on it. It has nothing to do with liberty. In future authorities know they just need to tell people to do the opposite of what they want, and a whole heap of sheep will fall for the reverse psychology with their childish notions of "liberty". Medical authorities literally had to advise people not to drink bleach as a cure and people did it anyway.

[@Excelcior58]

​@@MrMyers758This is dead on! The ignorant grey haired teenage rebel contrarian wannabe edge lords that trump and covid created is maddening.

[@thelastdictator482]

It's that Heinlein version of libertarian where everyone is capable and takes care of what needs to be done, and that means helping your neighbors and community when they're struggling and doing the best for society as a whole. That was my libertarian phase when I was younger and even though I left it long ago, it stung when Penn just made me realize that was the last bit of my naive optimism clingy on.

[@vaushfan9200]

So basically “I want people to have freedom unless I disagree with them”. Very brave stance!

[@reasonablegentleman]

He seems like a sharp guy, it's pretty amazing that he went his entire adult life without recognizing the type of people that seem to flock to Libertarianism.

[@pavelow235]

libertarianism= opponents will always claim you are truly a confused anarchist. Webster's definition of Libertarianism=one who uploads the principles individual liberty of thought and action[with attached consequences]. The opposite, or what you must lean towards if you don't lean towards Libertarianism is Determinism=the doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will. Anarchy: do as you wish, no actions have consequences. So which is more like anarchy? Libertarianism or Determinism?

[@Dan16673]

so true.

[@RextheRebel]

Definitely libertarianism.

[@BlueRidgeBubble]

How about we step away from political ideology and instead put the best ideas in the best places without loyalty to moronic ideas that go out of favor every ten or so years

[@Ronin969]

libertarianism = the tunnel-visioned obsession with Liberty as the one and only value that matters. The idea that Liberty is the magic answer to every complex question there is. And the self-gratifying solicitation of both the accusations of "conservative" and "liberal", which makes libertarians feel smart and edgy compared to the dumb stranger that doesn't know you're deliberately trying not to be either.

[@pavelow235]

​@@BlueRidgeBubble It's not moronic, hard work matters. If I grow tomatoes in my backyard, I eat tomatoes. If you believe you have no ability to better your outcomes through hard work, You will still try to eat My tomatoes. Through regulation, laws, or force. I'd like to think that I was describing the way societies are, transcending bigoted ideologies. As in you can't "step away" from the descriptors, anymore than you can "step away" from the laws of thermodynamics.

[@Evilhunknextdoor]

When "socialism" is a bad word, and "libertarianism" is an acceptable word.

[@TheSpicyLeg]

He’s blaming the effect when he should be blaming the cause. One of the first things I thought when coercive vaccination and mask mandates were pitched was that it was going to destroy the credibility of vaccinations and masks. Like most libertarian minded people, my instinct to coercion is to do the opposite just because you’re trying to force me to do it. From this point on, vaccination and mask programs will be far, far more difficult to implement because people view them as a means for ulterior motives. It should never have required coercion. That should never be an option. Instead, lay out the evidence and show people why they should want to get vaccinated or wear a mask. Some people won’t get on board anyway, but what has occurred will be far more destructive to public health than people not listening to good evidence ever could. Penn should be disappointed that anyone thought coercion and lies were going to lead to a good outcome. That kind of “ends justifying the means” is antithetical to libertarianism.

[@rgemail]

That just makes you a childish contrarian, and possibly, a good Libertarian. Requiring seatbelts doesnt destroy the credibility of seatbelts. Work on your selective logic application.

[@Musicrafter12]

If people are so hopelessly contrarian that if the government told them to drink water, they would instead turn around and drink bleach; if the government told them to brush their teeth and avoid sweets they'd throw away their toothbrush and guzzle liquid chocolate out of a nozzle -- the kind of mindset that leads to people who got vaccinated to suddenly start wishing they could "unvaccinate" themselves the moment it became mandatory, the kind of person who needs to continuously invent a retroactive justification for masks "never working anyway" to excuse them not wanting to wear them -- then libertarianism as a project must fail, because people are fundamentally irrational and cannot be expected to behave in a civilized manner the moment any kind of hardship comes upon them.

[@mikevanroy9356]

They couldn't lay out the evidence. There was no evidence to lay out. They were considered experimental as late as last year. Even the FDA, before giving the vaccines EUA status, said they will not prevent infection or transmission. It's impossible to make a vaccine that's effective against respiratory illnesses because the antibodies stay in the bloodstream and never get into the airways where the infection is. Even Fauci admitted that after he retired. Had people known that they wouldn't have gotten the vaccines.

[@chrischandler889]

Agree 100%. One thing to consider is no matter what we did not know the long term effects of this particular vaccine. Why? Because there literally was no long term testing. We all know why but since that is an objective fact, pushing something with such limited testing with coercion is another level evil.

[@rgemail]

@@chrischandler889 EVERY year, a *brand new* flu vaccine is created, and millions of people take it. Nothing was fundamentally "new" and "untested" about the Covid vaccines. Everyone who got vaccinated was completely fine (except, perhaps, the few who got so whipped up in terror of boogeymen they gave themselves severe panic attacks at the nurse's office) People who need fear and anger to keep their adherent's distracted fooled you into worrying about nothing, and it's embarrassing. Libertarians are just privileged, self obsessed contrarians. There's literally nothing to the ideology but arguing.

[@christhornycroft3686]

That’s why I’m not a libertarian. To be a libertarian you either have to be a sociopath or someone who believes that whatever services that are working in other countries to ease poverty and help the disabled and mentally ill people as individuals will just pick up and do themselves. If you live in or around America, you know the latter part isn’t true. People are basically selfish and would leave large chunks of society to go somewhere and die a painful death if it meant another dollar in their pockets. Libertarianism sounds great if you’re rich and don’t need help from anyone, but it’s a nightmare if you don’t have money and you get sick.

[@markdatheist9179]

You can see something as a scientific breakthrough and an impressive feat of organization ...while still be against the use of force to implement its adoption en mass. It should be up to the individual to decide if they want to inject themselves with a novel, revolutionary technology never seen before and produced in record time outside the usual process of checks and balances. I cant believe we have to spell that out.

[@DjiemYT]

Novel and never seen before except for 50 years

[@Musicrafter12]

The fact that the "novelness" of the vaccine and its status under emergency use authorization forms such a key cornerstone of the libertarian case against vaccine mandates is extremely telling. If you can't make such an argument absent that (mostly misleading) claim, it's clear that you're employing motivated reasoning.

[@TonysMusic1974]

I discarded libertarianism ten years ago. I found it too selfish

[@printingwithpeek4897]

Penn's views aren't conflicting. Social responsibility without a government mandate means that we do the right thing socially and stand up to the bullshit of what is actually wrong. I'm a libertarian and believe that open carrying a firearm should be legal everywhere the public has access to in the country, but at the same time, that doesn't mean you should do it.

[@empirelee7676]

Great. So you are a very nice person, but a political illiterate. Dont get me wrong...thats still better than those libertarians who are not even nice people.

[@printingwithpeek4897]

@empirelee7676 How am I a political illiterate? You just said something just to say it and offered no counterargument.

[@redrick8900]

Sure, and I should be able to walk around town with weaponized anthrax is in my pockets.

[@redrick8900]

@@printingwithpeek4897 "How am I a political illiterate?" Says the guy who wants people carrying guns at high school football games.

[@printingwithpeek4897]

@@redrick8900 Yda......okay?

[@jimmyvau]

Pen realizing he's actually an Anarcho Communist rather than a libertarian.

[@be4272]

As a fan of his old showtime show.. this is just sad.

[@kcsnipes]

I think that I’m still libertarian, sad to lose a man like Penn to help the movement gain support but i understand