Watch this before buying Solar & Battery Storage | 15 Points

[@darrenmooruthv2]

Great points covered. Just had my Solar and Fox system installed. Lots I was unaware of. Thanks Ian. 🔥

[@IanSampsonRLO]

Glad it helped Darren! Congrats on your system!

[@xinam]

Interesting video so far. Looking forward to the First For Solar saga video!

[@IanSampsonRLO]

Will be a long one I suspect lol, just facts.

[@3604Kvideos]

Thanks Ian. Those datasheets are interesting. One thing I think you missed is the round trip efficiency. That's a loss of about 5%. I read other datasheets and saw 5% each way, so perhaps that's 10% and not 5%. What is really interesting is the charge derating which occurs between 0 and 15C which appears to kill your charging in low temperatures and is mentioned as a footnote. I can't help feeling if you want anything close to the datasheets you might have to warm your babies and run them at 25C. I could be wrong but I'm starting to think derating may apply during discharge as well. It's very interesting how temperature has such an effect on the battery performance. Sorry if you've already mentioned this in other videos.

[@berniebne8243]

Good to see your back. We have similar problems re: heat. We have panels on 3 different roof pitches. We ended up with micro controllers on each panel + the main inverter. The inverter has 2 inputs originally wired east west which overloaded the inverter. FOC rewire north south sorted things out. The middle of summer overheats the panels. We get our best results spring & autumn.

[@IanSampsonRLO]

Hmmm, I will have to see how it goes in summer then!

[@berniebne8243]

@@IanSampsonRLO I've lived half my life in the uk and the other in Australia. In the uk summer uv levels are 8 occasionally 9. Brisbane in summer frequently reaches 12 sometimes 13. If the temperature in the shade is 32. Then in the full sun white concrete will be 53C, black tarmac is probably at 57C and a galvanised metal handrail could be 60C. It's a very different climate. PV panels mounted on the ground perform better than on the roof here. We are only 500 miles from the tropic of cancer. It will be interesting how yours perform over time.

[@prop7184]

Ian the Givenergy batteries allow 100% discharge although I keep a fair bit in reserve for power cut use. As for battery performance in the cold my batteries are also in an unheated garage and yet they have charged at maximum capacity/speed so far no matter what the temperature has been, and it was a fair bit colder back in December than the current cold spell yet my batteries charge/discharge at just under 6kwh which is the maximum they can run at due to the invertors used. Thankfully the company I used were brilliant and kept to the agreed week of install. The installation was also very proficient and professional, all work was done by actual company so no outsourcing. It was all done and dusted in 3 days. I did pay a bit extra as well to have a UPS install so it switches over to batteries without interruption during a power cut. Another thing you will notice is the performance of solar panels will drop off in hot weather, this is normal at least with my old panels it is, you will get lower performance on hot sunny days versus cooler sunny days. I even did a test one hot summer day and cooled my hot panels by spraying them with water briefly and watched the performance literally jump about 20 to 25% and slowly fall again as the panels warmed back up.

[@terrymackenzie6784]

I have a fox ESS hybrid with batteries in loft and yes one day in winter didn't charge overnight. Hastally added some insulation and didn't have the problem again. 8m now moving batteries to another location that allows for easy insulation in winter

[@knoxieman]

Great video, I got my Nissan Leaf and solar panels in 2013 it really feels great driving on sunshine I tell you lol, especially when you get the coal powered thing thrown at you. We used the phoenix works for our install they were amazing, had none of the problems you described, we went for an enphase system, so no big inverter on the wall, each panel has it's own little converter on it, advantage is if one panel is in shade or dirty you don't lose power on all panels because they are not connected in series. We have since moved to a bigger house, still got an EV but haven't gone solar again. There are old videos on my channel of ppl are interested. Keep the videos coming along 👍

[@IanSampsonRLO]

Nice one, did recover the cost of install through savings by the time you left?

[@TheChargeShow]

Fantastic video, enjoyed watching it. Always enjoyed your videos Ian, and I think you raise great points. Thanks for taking the time to produce this :)

[@IanSampsonRLO]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@TheTony111111]

very informative video Ian. I watched another video on youtube and he had virtually the same problems as you. IE. delay after delay. the company gave every excuse under the sun. In the end, he canceled the order. sourced all the items himself. using the original surveyors' plans and getting an independent contractor to do the installation. he said everything went really smoothly. he was so impressed with the contractors' work ethic and quality of workmanship he promoted their company on his video. Ps looking forward to the next update.

[@IanSampsonRLO]

Wow, nice one. Whats the contractors name do you know?

[@TheTony111111]

@@IanSampsonRLO not sure. I will go back on my youtube watched history and try and find out for you. I watch a lot of youtube so might take me a while.

[@johnmheaton]

What part of the country was it?

[@TheTony111111]

@@IanSampsonRLO not sure why but my reply to you keeps getting removed.

[@neilvincent3318]

Great video. I've had a 3.2 kWp PV array since 2011 and have been talking to various companies this year about replacing our ageing inverter, fitting panel optimisers and adding battery storage. Your points about battery charging/discharging in low temperatures and minimum discharge level have never been mentioned by any of them in the discussions I've had so far! I'd read about similar issues with EV batteries and vehicle range degradation in winter, but never made the obvious connection. So thanks for bringing these points up. Fitting say a Tesla Powerwall outside a property in the UK climate must be an absolute no-no! I'll be installing a battery in our garage and also have a central heating boiler in there. I'm now thinking of insulating the garage loft and maybe the external walls to minimise the impact of low temperature. With regard to shading of the panels by trees in Winter, my experience might be of interest. Our roof has an unobstructed 180 degree southern view of the sky apart from two trees and the panels do not have optimisers fitted. One is deciduous and loses it's leaves in winter, the other is a conifer. Both used to cast shadows on the panels between late September and late February when the sun is low. As far as I can tell the deciduous tree had no discernible effect on generation during this time. However, the conifer did knock back the generation in mid afternoon, but not by a huge factor even though we have no optimisers. Bear in mind that on most days in winter UK PV arrays are getting diffuse insolation on most days. I reported the conifer to the council because it is next to a public alleyway and was starting to creak a lot. I was concerned the top might snap off and fall on someone (but the fact that it was casting shadows on PV array was also in my mind ;-). They sent a guy out to talk to the land owner and he told them he knew it was making a noise because it was keeping him awake at night!🙂He had the top chopped off it a week later, so it's not a problem now, but it is of course growing back😞 We also had an issue with a dead branch on the green at the front of our house. We also cited danger to life and limb on that and the Council had it chopped off in a matter of days, so my advice is cite a danger to life and limb with regard to trees if you can and things happen fast;-) With regard to panel degradation, my Mitsubishi panels have so far held up quite well. I know the panel efficiency does degrade a fraction of a percentage per year, but If you take the peak daily generation figure year on year, to be honest the biggest factor affecting performance from year to year is the variability in the summer cloud cover and the ambient air temperature. I started in m y first year with a 22.2kWh max daily output one day in May 2011, saw the same level again one day in May 2013 and then assume I'd never see the like again, but in May 2022 it hit 22.2kWh again. Peak generation always seems to be on a blue sky day in early May when the air temperature is still below 21 Celsius. I don't think it's possible to measure panel degradation based on kWh output over time, so it shouldn't be too big a concern.

[@MattyFreedom]

I like this channel. Most people who buy solar and battery seem to become some weird fanboys who can only see the positive. You give the facts on both sides, which is refreshing.

[@IanSampsonRLO]

KZbin LOVES fanboys..suppresses stuff like in these videos…very odd.

[@JOOI525]

Excellent summary of issues to be aware of when having a Solar PV and battery install. I totally agree with your comments regarding the Fox App. Seriously FOX ESS, who has an app for a solar PV system which does not actually tell you how much solar generation you have had in a day? The app is great from a support perspective, as they can monitor your system in depth, but from an end user point of view it's really poor. Have to do several calculations to get an idea of what Solar my system has actually produced in a day. Now, I just wait until the end of the month, compare what I have used along with what I have exported, against what I took from the grid, which gives me the Solar net benefit, - helps you get a handle on those inefficiency's you alluded to. For example, may take 1.1 kwh to charge a battery with 1kwh charge, which then may only actually gives you 700 - 800 watts back when it's cold. I actually had First4Solar install my system. Just had 1 delay which was resolved with a phone call. (live local in Leeds, not sure if that was a factor) The system has worked 100% from first switch on in September, so that's a relief. Also, my batteries have not experienced any issues with the cold so far, but I know plenty have.

[@grahamwoodier5066]

Thanks for the video - a good summary of the things that can be unsatisfactory about solar/battery installations. You do seem to have had a rather poor experience though. My installation (done by a local company in Cheshire) was much better although there were some issues during commissioning that could have been handled better. However one of my biggest issues was that of battery charging rate during cold weather. My battery system (LG Chem) reduces the maximum charge rate to 1.9kW when the battery temperature is below 15c - discharge rate is unaffected. Since solar in the UK is pretty poor Nov-Feb I wanted to use my Octopus Go tariff to charge the battery overnight but there is only a 4 hour window for this. During the cold weather in December 22 my garage-installed battery was only reaching a maximum of 70% charge overnight. So, I have built an insulating box around my battery and this has solved the problem. The battery now reaches 100% charge in a 4 hours even when the garage temperature is at 5c. I will have to remove the insulation when the weather warms up - probably about March but by then solar will have taken over.

[@ChrisFuchs73]

Really great video Ian. I've spent months researching and then spoken to probably a dozen companies to quote. You're absolutely on the money with all the points above and it's taken me months of work to pretty much deduce the same - wish i'd seen your video sooner! I was already aware of the battery limitations with regard to low temperature charge and discharge but still decided to have the batteries in the garage as the roof space gets really cold in winter but also gets unbearably hot in summer. I really wasnt sure what do do for the best. Not sure how im going to deal with it yet - some sort of heath robinson insulated box with thermostatically controlled heater. Anyway, my install is booked for next week - fingers crossed 🤞

[@IanSampsonRLO]

Hope your install goes smoothly!

[@SirHackaL0t.]

I have friends who are about to get solar/batteries. I’ve sent this to them to watch. :)

[@IanSampsonRLO]

Brilliant! Thanks.

[@RichardABW]

Thanks for the video, just working my way through... Regarding the inverter/export size. Not relevant for Fox maybe but a SolarEdge inverter I think can have a software export limit set, but you still can get the full output for things round the house.

[@Longsnowsm]

Over spec and over build everything in your PV system and batteries. Plan for less power to be produced than the specs, plan for less capability than the equipment manufacturers state, plan for it to all cost you considerably more than you thought. Been there, done that. The cost is crazy. I did all of that, and now considering next year I will want to expand capability to account for winter weather production lows. Plan around your local weather and potential lows in production especially if you are planning to be able to produce all of your own power year around. Local weather here during the winter is mostly overcast and very low power production. So to counter it I am considering expanding to address that. Which means I will be massively overbuilt for the rest of the year. It will be OK, I can come up with useful things to do with my excess capacity. LOL

[@terrymackenzie6784]

Agree about losses, I reckon that if you charge from grid and discharge round trip losses is something like 17%

[@IanSampsonRLO]

Yeah and thats when its all brand new. Adding the year on year and it’s quite a hit!

[@FionaC1]

My goodness, by 2023 I had presumed it was all much more straightforward 😵‍💫

[@IanSampsonRLO]

You would think wouldnt you! We all have to be technicians it would appear!

[@bertiesworld]

I don't know. I think it comes down to the company and the equipment they supply to do the install. I ordered solar and batteries (Lux Uhome 9.6kw) from a local solar installer in Mid february this year. Installing 16th March. And that is what happened. I was up and running by 14.55. And since, I use the E7 to get a couple of hours charge into the batteries on te cheap rate and that really does us for the day. 99.99% of the time we run on the batteries/solar and export as well. We are E/W with 6 panels on one side and 6 on the other. No (real) issues at all and the Lux app tells me everything I might need to know about the system. My only gripe as to be how long it is taking to get the paperwork come through. 3 weeks for the MCS certifcate annd still waiting on the G98. Seems that might take 6-8 weeks to come through. But generally more than happy ...at the moment.

[@Group51]

Great video Ian. Many good points. Luckily my experience wasn’t as extreme but it wasn’t smooth! My scaffolding blocked my back door from opening. And didn’t see them again till it came down a few months later! Good thing I’m easy going…. And then Octopus confirmed that my SMETS1 smart meter despite being “adopted” by DCC isn’t communicating for Outgoing Agile. Damn you British Gas!

[@IanSampsonRLO]

Doh! Couldn’t use your back door for all that time. You would have thought someone would have checked that. (Did you get the meter sorted in the end?)

[@Group51]

@@IanSampsonRLO well I’m asking and reminding Octopus to replace it. Not sure what else I can do. Not a disaster but not optimal.

[@global_nomad.]

thanks for sharing this list in one place....as an architect a few of these are well known to me - but the more specific info about how the kit works and is monitored was very useful. PS for the sun diagrams/shadows there is a lot of software that will model that - dependign where you live you might have ready made models of you area, otherwise you have to build the 3d model, but that will give access to sun path/shadows throughout the year and then you can add in elements to see what would create a problematic shadow.

[@IanSampsonRLO]

A ready made model would be super useful. Got a link for what you use and I will share with the community

[@global_nomad.]

@@IanSampsonRLO there are various online 3d model suppliers - it will cost - and being in London there is more available. So depends who has something avilable. Sketchup software tends to be the most accessible 3d modelling software which can do sun path diagrams. there is a lot out there

[@global_nomad.]

an intro to how to use online tools and illustrator here kzbin.info/www/bejne/f53daZJ5gb1ofbM&ab_channel=toscaleblog

[@Dave64track]

Thanks for the video you covered some really interesting points that like you said a lot of people wouldn't know about. I think monitoring the system is a really important part and the more information you can get and log from a system the better. Then you will have an idea how long it will take to pay off and do I need to change anything like how I'm using the power etc. 👍

[@IanSampsonRLO]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@nigelweir3852]

Had solar in 6/7 years ago with government subsidy paid out every year + electricity savings . Batteries then an now I feel uneconomic as have already paid back solar and now the rest is profit + money for future failures . Make sure guarantees on inverter as long as can afford , took out 10 year guarantee as expensive to replace and fixing not likely possible as products change. Battery pay back more significant if running ev. At present my work around is the granny charger and free public charging when can get it. As22kwac quiet the norm , my zoe an advantage . Savings at this time significant but a bonus as not expected . Solar installer gone to wall some years ago so be aware come back could be a problem. My installation was extremely quick and done in weeks from survey and days to install

[@mcstan101]

I have had a solar system for about 3 years now, the solar company I went with wanted to put a net around my panels to stop birds from living under them. I decided to decline this.. everything went smoothly with the installation, but a day or two later me and misses got woke up to the sounds of birds.... when I went outside and found pigeons under my panels.. which upset me.. so I end up having to ring up the solar company again and ask if i could change my mind and get the netting after all.. this had to go on the credit card :( In spring and autumn, I found I get the best power.. I love march and April the most only other issue i had is my battery packs used to give me 3800 watts when new now they give me about 3200watts which kind sucks, my car never lost that much over its life time!

[@ram64man]

ian I'm a little concerned by your install, in the other first video of the subject you put the low power from panels down to the overcast day, I have had solar through the buffalo recent snow, other than having to clear the snow off the ground mount we were getting 1-3kwh typically in the solar hour period that charged up 20kwh, on a 10kwh array to get us through the night, in combination with a wood fireplace it really shouldn't be that low unless it was filmed very late in the day or an east to west array, which makes me wonder if you have a faulty panel mismatch in the array or major shading issues which were not detailed in the vid, if shading you can add solaredge or especially tygo units to the worst effected in the array without having to change your inverters, it just seems significantly low for 10kwh over 4 mppt trackers to be producing so little that or you have a fault, even in london I used to get around 1.3 kwh on a 6kwh array in winter.

[@bertiesworld]

Looking at your setup and the issues you face I just wondered if it might pay to build a marine ply 'house' inside the garage for all that equipment. It would keep it warmer than it is is currently.

[@IanSampsonRLO]

Yeah, there is an argument it would void warranty (unless it gave 300 x 300 x 300 x 300 mm gap all the way around). But yes, would make sense to make a winter enclosure…and remember to take it down in summer

[@mcroft1234]

Interesting video, thank you.

[@IanSampsonRLO]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@mcroft1234]

Don’t forget to mention the inverter output I.e. 3kw / 5kw. So when the house is drawing more the battery inverter can’t cope (when cooking).

[@IanSampsonRLO]

@@mcroft1234 mines 8.4kw from memory (might be 8.2kw) output through both inverters

[@MrButuz]

Lots of good points. 8:54 you seem to have misread the Operating temps - there's a different operating temp for charging than there is for discharging. Discharging down to -10 but charging only down to 0 which you probably reached. This is why having batteries outside (I count your unheated garage as outside to be honest..) is a bad idea.

[@IanSampsonRLO]

The lowest the batteries were according to the data in the reports available to me through the dashboard was 15.6c. I was aware of the 0c which it states for charing, although none of the real life stuff matches up, as it seems to also limit discharge as well. And…rather than being as straightforward as -10c - +55c it actually completely depends on the SOC at any given time + individual cell temps and possibly goes by the lowest individual cell temp rather than average of entire pack. Also….the temperature report on the dashboard appears not to be accurate, as a fox tech gave my lowest cell figure as 5-9c opposes to 15.6c (not 0c though to be clear!)

[@MrButuz]

@@IanSampsonRLO fair enough that is weird.

[@IanSampsonRLO]

@@MrButuz the tech said the have asked r&d to allow for min batt temp reading as only allows highest currently apparently. I am sure more will develop over time.

[@roxychic367]

It sounds like it would be worth heating and insulating where you batteries are stored so you get back some of fully use. We’re looking at the opposite as we get very hot in summer so need to insulate and air con the battery area You could use a heat pump instead to do the trick My Bluetti AC500 portable battery has battery heating :)

[@IanSampsonRLO]

The official line on this to not void warranty is in their q&q section: Q: can I warm the battery up with external heating device or source? A: NO, please don't do that; all problems caused by unauthorized actions will not be included in the warranty scope.

[@roxychic367]

@@IanSampsonRLO I get the feeling they where implying direct heat ie heating coils, direct air conditioning pointed at the batteries or into a battery cabinet.. rather than ambient room temperature to maintain a stable with in limit temperature range for optional battery operation.

[@se62hy]

Just bought a battery and panel system from deege solar. Got told it would be delayed just 2 weeks before installation date. Still awaiting some contact regarding the new date

[@IanSampsonRLO]

Hmmmm...I wonder how it will all work out! Hope you do not have my experience.

[@Joe-lb8qn]

i wonder if a small electric heater would more than compensate in terms of battery charge? / discharge. A bit like the more than 100% efficiency of heat pumps? Could the batteries be put in a small enclosure with insulation? And maybe a trickle heater for overnight perhaps a greenhouse heater aimed at keeping frost off for example? For a new install it does mean perhaps more care about placement, eg you might be able to put them in(say) an understairs cupboard or the garage and decide that garage is more convenient without taking this into account at all. In my case (though i didn't proceed) it would have been in the garage like yours, didn't even think about it, so i could have been similarly affected. . And also I'm only on a 4 hour cheap rate (like many on Octopus) which would make the problem worse.

[@deansh8506]

Are they hybrid inverters Ian? I have a 5.6kWp array. I opted for a 6kW inverter (as I wanted a 6kW peak output power from my batteries and PV) but the DNO only allowed me to export at 4.5kW. Luckily my inverter allowed me to set my maximum export power to 4.5kW so I could keep the 6kW inverter.

[@smudgey46]

Bloody hell Ian you've had a nightmare installation,, We used Deege solar and the install took from April ordering to Early August install which slipped by one week, The installer team turned up with the wrong batteries, which were installed on the understanding that they would be changed out in September, this did not happen until early December after being let down three times and like you say there is no communication from the company which is very frustrating, fingers crossed all seems good at present.

[@IanSampsonRLO]

Glad yours was sorted in the end!

[@timeast6412]

Hi Ian,an interesting and honest video,then I hour after I watched it the phone rang from a solar panel firm wanting to test and enhance my system. Coincidence or smart algorithms on u tube?

[@IanSampsonRLO]

Ha ha, they are on to you ;)

[@gpwisbey]

did you sell the honda E nice to see u back missed your content

[@IanSampsonRLO]

Thanks for the comment! Sold the Honda-e to help with a house purchase :( and also :)

[@xinam]

The big question I have I guess is… have you calculated how long it will take for you to break even on this whole install?

[@IanSampsonRLO]

I have! I will try and do a follow up with a video

[@thannaandtina]

I have had my Fox H1 inverter and solar panels installed for just over year now. Great no problems very satisfied. However last week I had to have a new modem installed as they have gone full fibre broadband in my area. Unfortunately I have now lost my internet connection to my inverter that was set up with my old modem. Can anyone tell me how to change the settings for my new modem?

[@IanSampsonRLO]

Yes, you should be able to connect directly to the dongle thats flashing on the bottom of the inverter.

[@belfasta]

I got a 4kw system with fox ess batteries two hv 2600 batteries they don't last the night and in the morning they only need 1.6kws to be charged 100% I suspect I they only deliver 1.5kw to my home so absolutely a complete waste of money and they ain't cheap

[@themanofmead5273]

How about this gem. I have just had a SolarEdge 10kw battery added to my existing solar. Now the install is complete I discover I have no control over the battery settings. To change any setting I have to get in touch with my solar company and ask them to change them. Unbelievable.

[@IanSampsonRLO]

Correct! Its a major concern, ultimately its the company that makes the kit that has control IF they have a cloud based service to access all your kit. Its a big concern for me, hence trying to bring it to a local network. If connected to the internet its great for support to change settings and fault diagnose BUT of course the remains a potential for the system to be shut off / bricked at any point (even unintentionally by a forced firmware update thats dodgy)

[@prop7184]

My battery system is cloud connected but Givenergy allow you to set the charging rate and discharge capacity along with pretty much all the settings you would generally need. The only thing that needed Givenergy to set remotely via the cloud was using EPS mode or UPS mode as by default the batteries ship in EPS mode only. As I wanted instantaneous battery support in event of power outage you need to have the electrical system wired differently during install to support UPS mode and then Givenergy will enable it at the request of the installation engineer.

[@ianhailey]

SE are going to change this soon so the end user can configure the profiles.

[@themanofmead5273]

@@ianhailey do you know if this will come as an App update. I’m guessing realistically that’s the only way it can be done ✅

[@sun-sea-solar]

Someone explain to me if you don't use all the solar produced. Why do the energy companies give you back the exact unit price that they charge you. Like for like

[@IanSampsonRLO]

There is a cost for running the grid itself for sure…but x10 times less for export than import is close to stealing!

[@sun-sea-solar]

@@IanSampsonRLO it's totally criminal

[@nigelweir3852]

You should have scaffolding removed and sold off to cover costs

[@IanSampsonRLO]

Ha ha good idea!

[@Christer885]

😊👍🌹

[@kkovaltsuk]

Avoid first4solar at any cost!

[@IanSampsonRLO]

Have you had an experience with them?

[@kkovaltsuk]

@@IanSampsonRLO yes, total time wasters.

[@dazsaz]

We had First4Solar no issues 😊

[@IanSampsonRLO]

@@dazsaz finally! First so far to comment as such!

[@rudgewickbrown]

You were lucky First4Solar took my deposit, went silent and folded.

[@IanSampsonRLO]

Folded? Did they use a different company name? When was this?