HF VERTICAL ANTENNAS - The Positives and The Negatives

Peter G3OJV, relates his 60-Years experience with vertical HF antennas.

[@murlock666]

From what I can tell from a couple of years of study, with help from yourself and other channels around the KZbin All antennae are a compromise of one form or another. It's highly unusual to see any antenna in absolute peak performance as there's seldom times that it is situated perfectly as to extract its maximum. Theres No perfect antenna and theres no perfect place for it for the most part. Height, Space restrictions and ground conductivity all make a difference. The best antenna is the one that gets you on the air ;) Thanks Peter. Im not a operator yet as i feel i need to know way more than is actually needed to pass foundation :) But I will be soon :) 73 :)

[@watersstanton]

Many thanks and all tge best for the licence. Peter

[@brian.7966]

well said, sir.

[@bassangler73]

You are absolutely correct!! I run verticals for VHF / UHF and for HF I use the ole simple EFHW, with a tuner I am good from 10m down to 80m

[@KirkMonteux]

Very well laid out. Thank you Peter.

[@davidc5027]

Thank you for sharing your experience and knowledge.

[@mikes6844]

Every day is a learning day. Thanks Peter.

[@gregoryhelman9879]

Thanks Peter for information on antennas enjoy them very much.

[@MattTPlaysMusic]

In my case my back yard (garden) was too small to install a horizontal wire for 40 meters, so I ended up opting for a 5BTV installed there. It's the best option I have given the space available. I have set down 14 radials so far, between 5 foot and 10 feet each. I can lay down more if necessary. Thank you for the video.

[@mikebavoso26]

Great video well done presentation thank you

[@richarddavies774]

Makes a lot of sense. Great video.

[@Captcasper7]

Great video this has helped a lot.

[@dariuszmular1051]

Thank you for explaining the problems of incorrect installation of vertical antennas. I love your movies. Greetings from Poland.

[@watersstanton]

You are welcome!

[@Electrotech1980]

Hi good information. Thanks for that. I used an antenna modelling software to check out the differences between mounting a 20m monoband vertical on the ground and at various level above ground. The calculations went up to the height of my tower, 17 meters. You are exactly right about the ground losses. The radiating efficiency of the antenna kept going up as the height went up. None of what I did took into account the obstructions at the lower levels. Another reason not to load up my tower. It's next to the house.

[@stevencole6459]

Hi Peter. Thanks for the interesting and informative video. The subject reminded me of when I was licenced in 1970, living in the Midlands and using a Heathkit HW32A single band transceiver, 100W into a 20m Ground Plane antenna at 6m with four inverted radials I worked a lot of DX including Easter Island in those early days. It was a very simple and effective antenna. Now living with a restricted garden in Devon I think it's time I put one up on 20m to see how it compares to my 10/15/20m nested dipoles and 40m long EFHW. 73. Steven G3ZDG

[@watersstanton]

Hi Steve, great to hear from you. Nice memories! Hope the antenna change works out. 73 Peter

[@alangoulding4252]

Facinating topic on the subject of verticals Peter as always, I have a Cushcraft MA5V mounted on the side of my house at about 35 feet. It works for me very well getting some cracking dx (Been up there for at least 9yrs) with only one take down for a coax change and service...I'm also perched at the top of a hill overlooking the whole village so guess that helps !! I find your talks on aerial types regards wire / beams /verticals extremely helpful and informative....de G7WBB (Alan)

[@watersstanton]

Very coThanks for sharingol!

[@Dan-56]

What you’re saying is exactly what I found while experimenting with a home made 20m mono-band vertical. Dismal performance mounted at ground level, most likely do to house, fence, trees, etc. Somewhat better 3’ (one meter) above the ground with sloping radials. And the best performance so far at approx. 10’ (3 meters) above the ground with a couple of radials and a driven ground rod that reaches the shallow water table. But it’s been a fun learning experience 🤪👍. Thanks for the informative videos, I always share them with my fellow local HAMs ! 73 de Dan WD4DB

[@watersstanton]

Many thanks for sharing your results. 73 Peter

[@georgiathai4961]

Thank you for an informative vertical antenna video. I’m thinking about a ZeroFive 43’ 10-80m ground plane. No room for radials. I’ve read only good things about ZeroFive antennas. Any advice from anyone? Thanks! Mr. Waters, your videos are the best. They’re always at a level I can understand. You’re a wonderful teacher. Thank you very much!

[@watersstanton]

I have not used or even seen one. I suspect they use a matching transformer, rather like a 9:1 UnUn. Not sure why they specify the minimum feeder length. Clearly it must become active in some way. 73 Peter.

[@aarontooth]

Thanks for explaining things. My plan is to get a Butternut and mount it on my metal roof.

[@allyburg7145]

I have both and I do exactly what you said horizontal for 40m and 20m and vertical for the rest. Propagation does come in to it as well, so I often flip between the two !

[@watersstanton]

Thanks for sharing.

[@wilfriedeberl8593]

40m vertical (up&out-style), fed 5m agl, works great for me! 👌

[@brian.7966]

you won`t get Lynch doing this....well done great stuff.

[@boblatkey7160]

I took my DX Commander vertical out of the backyard and mounted it on the ridge line of the roof of my house. I have about 900 feet of total wire spread out all over my roof (random length) as the radials and the thing works fantastic! Way better than it did hiding out in my backyard surrounded by trees and fences etc.

[@watersstanton]

Absolutely! If you can get a vertical off the ground the improvement is amazing.

[@richarde735]

I’m having good success with home brew verticals. especially, telescoping 17 or 17-1/2 foot whip and 64 radials

[@watersstanton]

Great

[@ronm6359]

How long are your radials?

[@ryoseta4757]

I am now using a trapped half-wave vertical for 14/18/21/24/28MHz. SWR is lower than 2.0 on all the bands. I got DXCC 100 achieved in four months with it. 😄

[@madcarew5168]

Still use that 14mhz wire vertical with the raised counterpoint you showed some time ago!!

[@ouijim]

Best Vertical Antenna I've used is DX COMMANDER. Extensive analysis and several upgrades over many years make DX COMMANDER a very refined Antenna that functions as designed. Fair priced. Very good value for the money spent.

[@watersstanton]

Yes, ground mounted quarter-wavwe antewnnas do work, but get them off the ground and you will really notice a big improvement, and with far less radials needed. 73 Peter

[@brianfields4479]

Hi Peter, very good video and my favorite and only ant I've ever used over 35 years on the air. Dx, different people different ideas of dx, for me dx is at least my signal going round the planet, zl to eu, not zl to vk or ja. I've tried many ants, the simplest is the vertical of course and gives low angle take off which equals dx. My 20m vertical ant is a 5m alloy painters pole attached to the fence and some radials, zl to eu every day. People worry about radials and space, mine are short and long, on the ground, in the ground, in the hedge, under the garden shed, even had a vertical on the deck and radials in between the boards, stick them anywhere, it will work. I have done verticals in a tree or next to the garden shed, in a corner of the smallest Garden, it's easy, give it a go. 73 zl3xdj

[@timdbl7804]

My best vertical seemed to be a vertical half-wave dipole on 40m, the lower half using the deliberate co-ax radiation technique. The bottom was near the ground, but I put radials (electrical quarter waves) under it ( not connected to the feedpoint) which might have reduced ground-absorption losses.

[@smiffykuk]

Accurate as usual Peter… the compromises laid out nice Y..

[@watersstanton]

Thank you kindly

[@g0fvt]

A pretty balanced synopsis, most of which aligns with my own limited experience. It has been interesting to try different solutions, sadly with a small garden it tends to be a choice of one or the other, for inter G and Europe predictably a 40m dipole at 10m was very effective, the vertical is more effective for longer haul. As for ground mounted radials, naively many years ago I believed they should be 1/4 wave, that is obviously not the case due to the considerable detuning with distributed capacitance. Recently I have tried various permutations of "ground systems for a "fan"" vertical. A series of ground stakes in a ring around the antenna base were poor performers and ground resistance appeared to be in the region of 20 or 30 ohms. I disconnected that arrangement and tried about 30 radials just 2m long, Surprisingly good 10-80m, now using a LOT of 8m long radials. As you rightly point out sometimes a low SWR can be due to a resistive ground system. Many years ago I had an inverted L for 160m, it had a moderate SWR when first installed but adding more and more radial wires raised the efficiency and the SWR.

[@watersstanton]

Great info and thanks for sharing. Take care. 73 Peter

[@ghostrider88888]

Hi Peter. Thanks for an interesting and informative video. If it's possible, could you make a video concentrating more, or specifically, only on an Elevated vertical with its radial field, like the Hustler 4btv for example. I'm currently busy with mine, but I've read many articles (especially the original 1978 manual) where they say "the radial system must be RF isolated from the mounting structure", as well as the coax or mounting bracket should not be directly grounded. I've mounted mine with a 50mm Stauff clamp (Hydraulic mounting clamp) just above my roof. 4 radials per band for 40m, 20m, and 10m. Unfortunately a shoulder operation on 20 April has put things on hold a bit..... 73. Donald.

[@watersstanton]

hi there. Thanks for watching and will put your suggestion on my list.

[@ehayes5217]

Tnx fer great info & Best 73 de WA4ELW in TN! 🇺🇸 dit dit 🤓

[@watersstanton]

Many thanks. 73 Peter

[@m7bcwstuart84]

My vertical works amazing I got siberia on 10 Watts 6ft from the floor grounded and 75 ft of rg8 mini perfect for me

[@watersstanton]

Very nice!

[@ianmcdonald7884]

I live in Australia. I use both vertical and end fed wire. The vertical is a 5.5 meter long stainless rod with an 49:1 unun on a 6 meter long pole and works very well with my QRP rig. The end fed is 12 meter's lone with a trap for 80 mounted about 7 meters up and also works very well but both not as good as the end fed half wave (for 40 meters) when I was able to use that. There's no ground radials on the vertical and no counterpoise on the end fed (which also has a 49:1 unun. I use that one with my Qmac HF radio). 73.

[@watersstanton]

Hi Ian, thanks for sharing. 73 Peter

[@jamesgeorge1709]

I've had mine since 1978 and the only part that I had to replace the 15 meter trap cover. It has been at the present location since 2000 and it still works great and have worked the world with only 100 watts max and most of the time at qrp levels. At my last location I had a tribander up and no ivertical didn't as good as the beam and that was expected but for the most part I have always been happy with the Hustler. Last point is they are built like battle ships, mine has survived hurricanes, Extreme cold, and super dry climates. YOU CAN'T FIND A BETTER ANTENNA!!!

[@Massey_Fferguson]

Which is why I prefer my efhw at 18ft up

[@watersstanton]

Yes the EFHW is a great antenna.

[@johnwest7993]

I've found that since homebrew wire antennas are practically free, that for the cost of 1 commercially built ham antenna I can easily set up a vertical on a fiberglass or PVC mast, (or use conduit for the vertical itself, set up an inverted V or 2 the same way, and EFHW's in a couple of directions, and then just switch between all of them to find out which one is working best under the conditions at the time. Sometimes the unused antennas may make things slightly worse. But just as often they will likely make things slightly better. Variety is the spice of life.

[@watersstanton]

Many thanks. Interesting to hear your results. 73 Peter

[@WessexWeather]

Really interesting video, thanks Peter. I purchased a [rather expensive] Diamond BB7V on the back of some of your previous videos. You rated it quite highly, one of its attractions being it doesn’t require radials. Further research has shown this antenna works best at ground level rather than roof mounted, and a ham contact of mine says it should work even better with radials. It’s my first antenna and I’ve been pleased with it, having made contacts >4000 miles with 10W. Have you changed your mind about this antenna now? Should it be raised? Should I fit radials? Great channel! M7WWX.

[@watersstanton]

The BB7 can be elevated, but you must add a line isolator right at the point where the coax connects to the antenna. Radials are not needed as the design is quite different to a quarter wave. Hope that helps.

[@d.jensen5153]

I'm a new licensee, and the more fiddling I do with DIY antennas, the more sense your videos make. You are practically at genius level now. 😀

[@michaelpetrou2014]

Hi Peter, great video, does the 40/20 dual vertical you have in your past videos does it resonate on 10 meters as well? or is best to add a 10 m element as well like a fan dipole would that work? VK1FMIK

[@DucatiMTS1200]

As always Peter you have zeroed in on your subject matter and have helped me enormously on the vertical antenna subject. I intend to erect a vertical shortly and I questioned the sense of a ground level mount but as you have explained most clearly I would be best to elevate the vertical to optimise performance. What height (ideally) do you recommend I raise my vertical to in order that the performance is improved to a more effective level? I’d be targeting the 20M band and above in frequency for operation. I’d be very grateful if you could advise. Many thanks and 73 de GI8WFA. Cheers, William.

[@watersstanton]

Glad to be of help. 73 Peter.

[@bx16v]

I use an EFHW (which tunes on 160-10m on my FTDX101MP) for top band and 80m (soon to be a top band dipole) and a DX commander all band vertical. The efhw is superior on 40m for intra G contacts but the DXC is noticeably better on longer contacts. On 20m right the way to 6m the vertical is vastly superior. I do have lower noise on the wire, which I put down to it being quite high up and my location (I get around S3 on top band of noise). The radial field on my vertical consists of 10 bundles of 4 radials @ 3m long, simply because I had a lot of old wire kicking about! I should point out I don't use a tuner on the vertical.

[@watersstanton]

Mamy thanks fot sharing. 73 Peter

[@Lastaii]

I love EFHWs, but the new EMF regs made mine unusable for anything other than QRP at my QTH, so I've been experimenting with verticals. I'm surrounded by houses, and as expected the reception and S/N are pretty terrible using a vertical. However, recently I've split Rx and Tx with an active loop receive antenna, and that has helped tremendously. Obviously my Tx pattern is still not great, but at least I'm getting out! That said, once my CW skills are up to snuff, the EFHW is going back up and I'll be working QRP, might still hold on to the Rx loop though ;)

[@watersstanton]

Thanks for sharing. 73 Peter

[@nealbeach4947]

EMF regs?

[@dxvenezuela-yy5rvc]

Hello Mr. Waters. My name is Carlos Rivas YY5RVC. I'm writing from Caracas, Venezuela. Seeing your video about vertical antennas, made me think in my particular case, living in a twelve stories residential building, on a hill. The altitude of this place, in case of that matter, is 1.108 meters over sea level. I bought the antenna with the intention of placing it on the roof, six stories up my apartment. I still no decide how I go to install it, near the ground or elevated. Besides, there's not much room for very long radials. My specific questions are: if I have, for instance, 2 radials for the 80m band (20m each), could I make 4 radials, where each radial has 2 pairs of 5m cable solded to a connector? It will work? And which mode of installation will be more suitable, on a base, four inches over the roof ground, or elevated, with a base and a mast, four feet over the roof ground? Thanks in advance for your help, Mr. Waters. I don't miss any of your videos. 73, YY5RVC

[@watersstanton]

Hi Carlos, great to hear from you. A vertical on the roof would be great! 73 Peter

[@ynot6473]

i'm in the process of getting a half wave on 20M mounted on a DX commander 12.4M pole. i live in suburbia so a 1/4 wave ground mount is a no go and my garden is a bit narrow for the 1/4 wave elevated radials needed for a raised 1/4 wave vertical. 73, M7BKF

[@watersstanton]

A half wave inverted V is a great antenna. Go fir it!

[@ynot6473]

@@watersstanton it's actually a vertical. i have a horizontal end fed for 40M, that may end up inverted V.

[@brekaman]

I use the moonraker gpa-80 and am really pleased, it’s on a pole 10ft agl.

[@watersstanton]

Good to hear.

[@minnowpoo]

were do you put the redials? my hf vertical did not come with any?

[@francismcclaughry3794]

i bought a Butternut vertical. it has nine traps in it. i have m f j tester my problem is i don' know how to test the traps or read the meter. so that vertical has been in the box in our entrance way. my mate has gave me hard time more than once

[@zazugee]

interesting, i saw alot of hams using verticals, they sounds complicated, i just got into the hobby after buying an RTL-SDR after using the stock adjustable dipoles for VHF/UHF, i went directly to horizontal wire dipoles for HF but realized that to get the lower bands (80m, 160m), the wire length is unmanageable, and a quarter wave would be shorter than a dipole but building a mast would be a challenge for a beginner like me. i think verticals tend to pick sky waves more than ground waves like vertical dipoles do bc their gain favor such behavior bc of the mirror effect, but well if the above ground radials were at an angle, they will pick ground waves better too but i'm still confused about the polarization, bc my horizontal still pick vertically polarized VHF airband which is weird

[@watersstanton]

HF signals are randomly polarised caused by refraction, unlike VHF signals.

[@ehayes5217]

When considering a vertical that's NOT going to be ground-mounted, is there an optimal height that u'd generally recommend?

[@watersstanton]

The main requirement is that is is elevated at a minimum of around 2m/ But, the more sky it can see at low anfles, the better.

[@chrisreid8604]

Hi just watched your video thanks, I have a multi band Yagi up at 20mtrs, but would love to try a vertical, i am lucky enough to have a spare tower, the tower has 3 x 6mtr sections and I thought about erecting 2 , sections and put the vertical at the top, not too sure about the radicals though??? what would you suggest?

[@watersstanton]

Elevated verticals work well BUT you do need two resonant radials per band.

[@chrisreid8604]

Ok thanks but what if the tower is higher than the length the radials are supposed to be?? @@watersstanton

[@PopeyeKF4LBG]

Thats some "funky" intro music you have there, Peter! Is that one of your keyboard creations? 😅 73 friend! de KF4LBG

[@watersstanton]

Yes everything is done on a Yamaha SX 900

[@philmaxwell1858]

If, as you said, a vertical has a low radiation angle, can you tilt the antenna from vertical and change the radiation angle?

[@watersstanton]

No. Nice idea though!

[@jamesgeorge1709]

Peter has anyone ever tried putting up the hustler radials on the ground but put the on a mast above the ground?

[@watersstanton]

Radials need to be connected to the bottom of the antenna, not the bottom of any support mast.

[@rossstokes7983]

G'day Peter, I am considering getting a Hustler 5btv. It says in the instructions to keep it at least 20 feet away from any metal. I can't do this because my garden is not wide enough. I can only keep it about 10 feet away from any metal. this is part of my house roof and my neighbours gutter, on there house. What do you think. From Ross 73s.

[@watersstanton]

It is quite common to have multi element verticals, with elements very close to one another and they work. So I would expect there to be no problem. Peter.

[@w7thebaofengdude626]

Unfortunately I just bought a ground mounted fan vertical for my suburban home. Wish I would have seen this video first.

[@daveengstrom9250]

If I put a vertical up on a 40 foot tower, how would I attach radials? I could see using aluminum or stainless steel rods but they couldn't be much more than 6 or 8 feet before they would bend I would think. How do people do this??

[@watersstanton]

Use wire.

[@2e0fjjvlogs32]

I wish my landlord would let me put a antenna out side. I hate operating QRP.

[@richarde735]

sometimes it’s better to beg for forgiveness rather than asking for permission.

[@wb2dx717]

i have an off center fed dipole and a gap vertical in comparison the dipole can't hear at all; the vertical can hear a lot more than the wire. i say ditch the vertical is not the way to go. my gap antenna is 5 foot off the ground and yet i have contacts from southeast America to Australia with a true 5/9 to Mutiple locations. all of which i cannot even hear on the wire antenna i have worked in Argentina as well and Moscow as well as south Africia the antenna is aluminum with radials attached to the sides and base no fiberglass needed. it is multi band covering continual from 80 megs to 50 (80-to-6-meter band) very broad bandwidth the highest swr being 1 ,8 to 1 on just 1 band your theory of a wire dipole is just rubbish om.in my 25 years of being a ham i have used serval wire antennas in the past and this vertical out preforms them hands down and takes up just a foot square of garden space with no need to put wires in the ground at all .i suggest you check out gap verticals . in particular the titan dx ,

[@watersstanton]

Many thanks. Yes I used a GAP antenna for 5 years and and raising it above ground certainly makes an improvement.