Grounded or Elevated Radials? - Your Landslide Vote gives a positive Answer! | HAM RADIO

[@DucatiMTS1200]

It's nice to find someone genuinely as interested in the hobby technical aspect as opposed to the pure sales pitch. I'd certainly purchase more quickly from a vendor who shows these qualities! Thank you Peter. 73 de GI8WFA.

[@watersstanton]

Many thanks for your message. 73 Peter

[@lawrencethompson465]

Thank you, Peter, for responding to viewers questions and so many of them. I find these Q and A’s to be quite valuable in teasing out and amplifying what was covered in your presentation. Much appreciated!

[@leightonlewis4954]

Your absolutely spot on indeed, Raised Antennas with Raised Radials, Always have the edge, Over Ground mounted Antennas, With Ground Radials, It's common sense & hight is might, Regards Leighton 2W0EQQ. 😀

[@RickPaquin]

I greatly appreciate your video confirming my thoughts! Frustrated by no 10m performance, I finally realized that I had a multiband antenna fed from the ground up in a backyard surrounded by houses, sheds and garages and questioned how it was expected to work? As an experiment I got a 20 ft fiberglass mast and created a quick vertical center fed 10m dipole, thus getting the whole 10 m antenna elevated. Now I hear stations booming in! I'd say more than 6db gain in reception because it didn't work at all before. Now I will build it properly with 45 degree radials!

[@watersstanton]

Well done. Good news

[@RickPaquin]

@@watersstanton Could you address grounding? I was going to design my 45 degree radials as part of my guy wire system using a ceramic insulator. Thus I can put it up about 25 ft or so to clear the roofs. But is there an issue if I run a ground wire straight down the fiberglass mast from the tie point of the radials?? Does it detune the radial design? Or, what if the radials were attached to a vertical metal mast going to the ground, where the mask becomes part of the grounding system?

[@bills1613]

EXCELLENT POINT! Ground mounting in an open field is fine but if you're like most of us and your back yard is surrounded by things like HOUSES, SHEDS, FENCES, telephone-power-lighting poles, trees, etc, etc, you're just not going to get the performance you will if you elevate that antenna. For the higher bands 17-10 meters I always "try" to put it on a mast and get it above the eave of my house's roof, just the same as I do with my VHF / UHF antennas. It's a no brainer. Thanks for the reality check brother. 73, de KF4PCT

[@N8ESP]

I may give this a go. Since I originally installed my 6BTV over a decade ago, the performance has really suffered in spite of regular maintenance and a healthy radial field. I'll have to do a little thinking about the best approach for the radials as I'm working with limited space, but it feels like an exercise that's worth doing. Thanks for sharing!

[@lguyot2]

Thanks… I’ll be raising my DX Commander vertical and radials off the ground this fall. Looking forward to the improvement!

[@michaelsanders251]

Peter, thank you for this video, as well as all of your others... I feel as if I am sitting and llistening to a wise uncle that is very passionate about a hobby in which I am just starting. I am slowly acquiring my equipment, and am building my ham shack as I go. You videos have saved me time and money in that the videos prevented costly mistakes. Thanks again... 73 - Mike

[@watersstanton]

Wow, thank you. So kind. 73 Peter

[@bassangler73]

I agree 100% about the modeling software!! That is for ideal conditions only! If you live in a neighborhood like I do where the houses are 50m apart you can throw the modeling software out the window...I use a vertical for 2m ( a Diamond X300-A ) and a EFHW for HF and I found that wire length calculators are just nothing but a starting point..My 40m EFHW works best 2 feet longer on the wire length than the calculators say...I'm not an expert ( I just got into Ham back in February) but I have found through great advice from channels such as this and my Elmer's to buy good antenna grade wire and if the calculators say 66 feet order 80 feet of wire...That gives you room to strip the ends to make a good soldered connection and plenty of room to experiment..If I remember correctly the calculator I used for my EFHW said 66' 9" and my best performance is at 69' so maybe this will help some new HAM because I'm still learning and I remember what it was like being brand new and not wanting to call people 5× a day with questions...I have a great Elmer and he did me a huge favor...I kept asking for help and he would tell me what to do and I was very thankful but finally after about a month he told me to " go forth and educate myself " and it was the best advice he has given me! If your new buy the ARRL antenna book and watch people like Peter on KZbin instead of some movie at night that is not going to help you in anyway learning radio..I try to spend at least an hour a day researching something about radio and this channel is an excellent place to go!

[@russellbradley454]

And soil type and ground conditions under any vertical indeed any antenna needs to be taken into account live near water yes , rock or clay yuk 😂

[@bassangler73]

@@russellbradley454 i agree 100%

[@russellbradley454]

Law of diminishing returns research has shown after a certain number of verticals is used the difference in performance is negligible .

[@bassangler73]

@russellbradley454 sorry but I'm unclear what you mean...do you mean radials?

[@russellbradley454]

Sorry typo meant radials of course dah

[@davidportch8837]

Thanks Peter... When the weather gets cooler, I shall certainly be doing some experimenting with raised verticals. Only two radials per band also sounds much easier to do...

[@watersstanton]

Hope it works out well. 73 Peter

[@woodskid4ever]

Great info Peter! Thank you! My question is whether or not the metal support post should be insulated from ground so that the radials are tuned correctly. 73 from Oregon!

[@RickPaquin]

I see no one has answered this but it's a good question because of grounding. Do you really want the radials isolated from any path to ground? I don't. Mounting them on a metal mast can be an effective ground (if deep enough), or if fiberglass you'd have a ground wire going to ground, but either way, how does a pole or wire going to ground from the radials, effect the ground plane performance? Guess I'll have to experiment to see.

[@delfinok-delfo]

I have been a radio amateur for two years, and I built a fishing rod with a 4: 1 balun, the antenna is placed at a meter and a half from the ground, with radials, not exactly at 45 degrees, but there are. I connected from northern Italy to Japan, USA, Brazil. I'm really happy. hello IU3OYH

[@watersstanton]

Sounds good. 73 Peter

[@sherrycoady2491]

I built/used coax traps in each of 6 radials so that 3 resonated for each band 40,30,20,18,15,10. Worked very well with my StepIR vertical

[@alanjames4526]

Hi, Peter. Great video! I am and have always been a believer in elevated radials, Alan KZ6B in California.

[@watersstanton]

Thanks for sharing. 73 Peter

[@jimp.7286]

I just watched another video on this topic. The gentleman cut the single radial wire to the exact same length as the driven wire. The vertical was elevated approximately one and a half meters and the radial elevated about one meter resulting in an "L" shape. The radial was not angled downward much but had sag in the middle. He too claimed about a 6db improvement. He speculated that it wouldn't care much for being near metal metal buildings and similar objects which leads me to ask, "are they greatly affected by vegetation or basically anything nearby? More so than other antenna designs? What about a wooden fence? Most folks have some manner of fence in smaller back yards. I initially pictured the radial being attached to a fence, lol. And the comment about the radials acting as a reflector?,..... is a good one! Or, a series of them being switchable to act as a kind of poor-man's beam? Cheers. 👍

[@watersstanton]

Check this video. kzbin.info/www/bejne/eaC0o2aif8eboaM

[@davidmccarter982]

Visiting WWV I learned that the HF antennas use Elevated 1/4 wave verticals with nine resonant radials, which also serve to keep the antenna standing. I built an elevated 1/4 wave vertical for 20m, using an aluminum 5.2m support mast surrounded by nine 5.2m radials. I found that slight length errors of the radial lengths actually widened the bandwith so that the antenna covered the whole band, with excellent low angle radiation. Good point as well that a ground mounted vertical interacts with nearby objects.

[@watersstanton]

Very interesting David. Thanks for sharing that info. 73 Peter

[@w4mps1964]

Fascinating topic Peter. Thanks for sharing. Elevated vs ground radials has been a dilemma of mine for quite some time. For portable (i.e. POTA) I’ve recently been using a 1/4 wave 20M elevated vertical using the MFJ 17 ft SS whip. It’s elevated about 5 ft with several 16-1/2 ft radials sloping downward but still about 2 ft above ground at the ends. I’m usually QRP when portable (KX3) and have had very good results. Please continue your experiments. We’d love to see more videos about this topic i.e. portable verticals perhaps with a reflector, or possibly experiments with an elevated 1/2 wave vertical. Chameleon is now offering a 25 ft SS whip, etc. Many thanks for your great channel 73 Marc, W4MPS

[@lexheath8276]

Howdy Peter. We love your videos. Best channel ever. Prior to retirement I climbed commercial wind turbines & meteorology towers. However, the older I get I find myself going ground mounted. I'm not climbing towers nor raising masts any longer. My 43' with an amp and Beverages does wonders. If I need gain I may install phased verticle arrays. Everything tilts from the safety of my lawn. Not dropping aerials on the house nor the vehicle. Cheers.

[@watersstanton]

Thanks for sharing

[@paulc9139]

I built a 1/4 wave for 6m antenna it has elevated radials, don't get to excited it only on the side of the shed about 8ft high to the radials, it works a dream, I've made many a contacts on 6m without all the shouting & bad manners

[@recumbentrevolution6540]

Just ordered me the hustler 4BTV. Decided I'm going to elevate it about 5 and a 1/2 feet off the ground. We'll probably try 6 radials With the proper radial ground plate and see how it goes. Just debating on whether to install on the edge of my yard near a tree and a Large brick church with a metal roof,Or out in the middle or the yard where it's open, But then I have to deal with mowing around it more. Thanks for the great information to help me decide on elevated.👍

[@Felixvazquez-u9z]

Yes i agree, I do have a 7 mhz vertical antenna about 4 meters above the ground with 3 radials and the performace a lot better then a dipole about 5.5 db gain the skip angle is perfect for DX, but for this frequency you need space.

[@9A4GEMilan]

I first put vertical for 40m band on the ground without radials. It performs okay, but not great. Then I rise vertical 5 meters of the ground, but that was shorter version with load coil (not a full length quarter wave). What a disaster. Then mounted back vertical on the ground, this time full length with 20 radials. Performing very well. Measured 6 dB over dipole that is situated 10m of the ground (G0EVY provided me measurement results, so Croatia -> England). I am not sure whether rising back again will do something better, but will try eventually one day.

[@watersstanton]

Keep us informed.

[@2E0LMI]

Thumbs up for "one of the best ways of proving a point is to try it". Definitely, totally agree.

[@W-733_KWX]

Wow, exactly the discussion I was after. Thanks a lot for your video, Peter!

[@EssexCountyPhoto]

2024 update: I've fitted my Chameleon MPAS onto our wooden pergola, 2.5m above ground, using the Cap-Hat, and 4 radials each of 10m / 5m / 2.5m in length, all 12 made of DX50 and roughly horizontal, each radial ends between 1.8m and 2m high. The results are a LOT better than on the ground with spike and radials, plus I've got nowhere to fit them! I'm using an IC-705 on 10W, got to Serbia from Essex (1081 miles!) on SSB, and FT8 all the way to Russia (2229 miles) and America (4289 miles). Hope this helps. Keep up the sterling work. 👍🏻

[@watersstanton]

Great info. Many thanks.

[@obrienaj]

I can confirm the results. After recently watching this video I built a 15M monopole with 4 above ground radials, radials about 4 feet above aground . Sloping at approximately 45 degrees . Just got it up this evening during the WPX, good for testing reception and comparing with my EFHW which has performed well. For North Africa, Western Europe, and the Caribbean .. signals were about 2 S-units better than the EFHW on 15M. For very weak Asians, signals about the same for both antennas. Andy K3UK .

[@watersstanton]

Hi Andy, Great to hear the results. Have fun.

[@brianfields4479]

interesting video peter. my vertical on the ground between trees and bushes and a steel woodshed only 1m away works extremely well in all directions, so not convinced lifting it off the ground or moving it into a empty field would achieve a great deal.

[@johnk8091]

Your assertions and assumptions are spot on correct Peter

[@watersstanton]

Glad to hear it.

[@StreakyP]

one thing to watch is icnirp clearances from "hot" elevated radial ends.

[@tombaffa9374]

You’ve encouraged me to try one on 20m. I’ll let you know how it goes. Thanks

[@watersstanton]

Please do

[@Stevesmith-yw7cr]

I just changed my vertical ground mount 20 meter antenna to a raised mount and raised radials. The antenna is up 9 feet and I have 8 radials with a few more to come. So far, I have seen a huge increase in received signals and the antenna is a bit quieter than when ground mounted. Propagation? Maybe. But I do know that my SWR is lower when the antenna is raised.....1.3 as comparted to 1.7. As far as transmitted signal goes, It is difficult to tell as propagation could be different from when I transmitted when ground mounted. So far, I am very happy that I raised the vertical and radials. Seems to have made a difference. Thanks for the great video.

[@watersstanton]

Good to hear your news. If rx signals are better, then tx should follow in the same wat.

[@Stevesmith-yw7cr]

@@watersstanton In Northern Ohio I am getting 5-9 to +20 signal reports on 20 meters after midnight to most of Europe and Asia. +20 signal report from Japan. I am hearing a whole lot more than I did when the antenna was on the ground. Increased radials from 8 to 16 and that really helped quite a bit it seems. Thanks again for the video and the information. Glad I lifted the antenna and radials. Will do that with all my other vertical antennas. I run single band resonant verticals to keep it all simple.

[@HayesSalley]

With respect to elevated radials, is it possible to get them too high? I am thinking particularly of 40 & 80 meter quarter wave vertical antenna. I live out in the country and have the potential to mount antennas quite high on utility poles and run radials in multiple directions. Thank you. I really appreciate your channel and have learned a lot from you. Hayes

[@watersstanton]

4ft or 5ft above ground gets the job done. There is no real advantage if going higher, particularly if you are in open countryside.

[@ward5821]

my are bare copper at various lengths and buried. I would use a large copper screen but that is pricey,. This arrangement works fantastic. I have never found anything that works better. This is what the broadcast industry does, but they do use a huge screen. The ground is the return.

[@richarde735]

I would like to have an elevated radial ground plane in the backyard but I have two golden retrievers. They spend a great deal of time digging holes. I’m convinced they were infantry in another life.

[@mikebavoso26]

Hello, Love youur channel. If you have a 80m or 160m vertical and still have it on the ground...would it be advantage to angle the radical up from the ground at 45° and then travel horizontally parallel to the ground with a support at the end? Thank you

[@watersstanton]

I have not tried it but others report good results. Try it. 73 Peter

[@basshorseman998]

Better late then never...Good stuff Peter, Thank you

[@m0aze611]

Thank you Peter, as usual your words of wisdom are priceless. 73 Mike

[@watersstanton]

Many thanks. Take care. 73 Peter

[@WilliamCalderon-yv3rr]

What about 11 meters, is it the same for cb

[@rhpmountaintrail9206]

I think we will need to raise our antennas especially as we need to comply with of comms new regulation on RFI we don’t want to end up cooking our neighbours will be accused of giving them headaches. so it is inevitable that ground-based verticals will all have to be raised. as I’m sure most of them do not comply with my normal sized gardens.

[@watersstanton]

Well you will achieve around an S-point in signal in and out.

[@ipklondonuk]

Thanks Peter, due to one of your previous video's, I purchased a Buddistick, when I go out portable I usually work it with the magmount on the car and have no problems, sometimes though I use the tripod and Buddistick recommend raising the radial, sometimes this creates a problem as there's not always something around to connect it to so I can raise it and keep it there. How much do you think I would lose by lying it down on the ground, any idea's?

[@watersstanton]

Ground mounting loses you around 6dB

[@ipklondonuk]

@@watersstanton Yeah pretty much what I asumed really, don't want to lose 6dB when I'm already compromised, cheers Peter

[@unclemikeyplays]

I've seen some reviews of the Buddistick where they use a simple garden stake or something to prop up the counterpoise...

[@briantrask8173]

I have been wanting to try the idea of raised radials off of a 17 foot whip on a tripod. Should the radials be horizontal to ground or slanting down at an angle?

[@doc145]

You can slope them down to about a foot. Better yet try it both ways and see if your signal is better.

[@brianfields4479]

I wonder if the elevated radials have to be sloping towards the ground, or could there be horizontal.

[@watersstanton]

Hi Brian. Sloping down is the popular method as it raises the impedance closer to 50 Ohms. BUT all VHF designs seems to opt for horizontal. Personally I would go with whatever is easier. However, closer to the ground it may be better to keep them horizontal. Cheers. Peter.

[@moondog_radio]

I have an MP1 Super Antenna on a tripod... about 6 feet up in the air. In this case, the radials/counterpoise wires are partially elevated and partially strung across the ground. I have seen nothing that addresses this sort of situation in terms of technical advice or best practices. Is it an elevated ground radial??... I don't think so since much of it is laying on the ground. But the 1/4 wave vertical is elevated (6 feet) and the radials do slope down.

[@watersstanton]

The radials need to be clear of tge ground tp perform as elevated radials.

[@moondog_radio]

@@watersstanton thank you. what do you think about using a horizontal hamstick as a radial? tuned to the band. I heard that idea yesterday for the first time. seems reasonable. an MP1 vertical on a tripod with a horizontal tuned hamstick. same as a dipole only in an L shape.

[@Tommy_Boy.]

Love it! Love it! Great video and really great information to get to share with other amateurs that are interested. I’ll be doing some further experimenting myself. 👍📻⚡️ Thank you Peter! Tom - WA7FLY

[@davidpatrick4310]

Hi Peter, does the same general advice apply to a BB7V apart from the raised radials ? Dave G6EGM

[@watersstanton]

No. That antenna is different. Radials do not help.

[@g0fvt]

Hi Peter, although I do not automatically agree with every point there is nothing here that is controversial. In my small garden the buried radial solution is easier practically than some alternatives but is not necessarily ideal. A simple bit of trigonometry I am sure will highlight how much of my low angle radiation is going to "hit" surrounding houses and trees. (I will do the maths). As for the length of elevated radials... I remember an article suggesting that there was merit in making them about 10% long so that the radials are operating one side of resonance, ie slightly inductive. From memory it was not about the polar diagram but the feed impedance. By having the resonance of the vertical section at a slight offset to the resonance of the radials the reactance at the feedpoint does not change as rapidly with excursions in the band. Badly worded I know...

[@watersstanton]

Thanks for sharing. 73 Peter

[@allyburg7145]

If I raise my hustler and add some above ground radials, would you still leave connected the ground radials I have installed

[@watersstanton]

Yes that is not a problem, My okd griund radials are still connected to base of support nast.

[@m1emf660]

Peter, is it possible for me to contact you personally regarding the issues I have being physically impaired?

[@d.jensen5153]

Except for driving considerations, isn't a vertical EFHW the same thing as a raised vertical quarterwave antenna with a single radial? And isn't that the same thing as a vertical dipole? Anyway, I'm hanging an EFHW 20m antenna from the highest limb in the yard (60'?), and figure it will give me that 6dB gain we all seek.

[@watersstanton]

The EFHW will beat a ground mounted vertical. I suspect that there is little difference between the EFHW and a ground plane, but the GP is shoter in height and van be directly fed with coax. 73 Peter

[@CurtNovitsky]

Why not have both?

[@watersstanton]

Not a good idea.

[@jordanhowell3870]

Thnxx for this video

[@watersstanton]

It's my pleasure

[@stevepatterson2290]

what about my hustle 4BTV? get it off the ground?

[@watersstanton]

Yes if you can

[@stevepatterson2290]

@@watersstanton I have a 12'piece of pipe , that should work?

[@frankwc0o]

The literature is clear, if you can lift the radials the better. If not - no problem, you can leave them on the ground.

[@watersstanton]

sounds right.

[@hamradiofun5527]

SOTA OPS use these elevated GP antennas as they are superior

[@watersstanton]

Yes. 73 Peter

[@rayhill1855]

Another great video. Always genuinely straight and to the point. KN6TUX 73